Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

FFXIV Summoner... How?Follow

#1 Jul 02 2009 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
**
424 posts
I am pretty sure there will be summons in FFXIV, as it has been a core concept of the series since the Super Famicon days.

Will there be a summoner job/class? Yeah I know, no exp, no real jobs.. yada yada.

The question being, will summons be the focus of a certain job, like a 'summoner' or will they just be earned and equipped by anyone?

For reference, in some FF games (most recently 10) there is a Summoner who can summon powerful beings, but only that one job can do. In other FF games (most recently XII) any character can summon a powerful being, but is usually limited to having just one available to their character.

I can see FFXIV having a system with avatars being character specific. Ie: Your tank has Titan equipped, but your melee DPS has Ifrit equipped, while the healer has Carbuncle.

I can also see FFXIV having the 'you must be a summoner with summoning skill to call forth such powerful beings' rule.

Regardless, I would like to see the summons in the next game have a more powerful role than they played in FFXI. If the summons are going to be out the entire time (as they were in FFXI) I would like them to be equivalent to another party member. Ie: Summoning Ifrit gives the party a capable melee DPS as if a melee DPS of the same skill level of the summoner was in the group. OR: If carbuncle is out in the group, it would be as if a healer stepped into fill the role of the summoner. The trade off for this would be that the summoner would be rendered relatively useless for the period that the avatar was participating in battle. It would make for a very good hybrid class that could play on elemental or physical weaknesses depending on what enemies you were engaging. And to prevent it from being too overpowered, summons could not overlap their spells or cast on other summons. If a party of only summoners went out to grind, they would quickly be overcome as the Carbuncle of one could not heal the Titan of another.

If summons are not specific to a job/class, but rather follow the (FFXII) one summon per character model, then I really hope that it is a significant cost to unleash your summon, for a real difference making effect. Sort of like 2hours, but always useful.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#2 Jul 02 2009 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,808 posts
Shazaamemt wrote:
If the summons are going to be out the entire time (as they were in FFXI) I would like them to be equivalent to another party member.

Then the summoner himself/herself will have to not be directly contributing to the party much if at all. I don't think it is a bad idea to have the focus be on the summon, but for balance reasons this is obviously going to have to diminish the active role of the summoner.
#3 Jul 02 2009 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
**
424 posts
Sorry, I should have made the idea more clear:

The summoner would be controlling the avatar, and have control over the avatars abilities and spells, and would be playing as the avatar. Not just sitting around drooling.


Edit:

And controlling the avatar in a far more involved way than FFXI, the avatar would have more abilities and spells, not set to a 1 minute or 30 second global cooldown.

It would be one of the most complex classes to play, as you would have to specialize in each avatar type.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 4:26am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#4 Jul 02 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,808 posts
Shazaamemt wrote:
Sorry, I should have made the idea more clear:

The summoner would be controlling the avatar, and have control over the avatars abilities and spells, and would be playing as the avatar. Not just sitting around drooling.

That's what I meant to convey.

Besically if you have carbuncle out instead of you casting cure 1 you'd command carby to cast cure 1. But you as a character could not directly help the party, you couldn't cast cure 1 with carby or else you'd be overpowered.
#5 Jul 02 2009 at 3:31 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
253 posts
Quote:
Then the summoner himself/herself will have to not be directly contributing to the party much if at all. I don't think it is a bad idea to have the focus be on the summon, but for balance reasons this is obviously going to have to diminish the active role of the summoner.


That sounds like what happens with the Light Elemental when a SMN tosses it out.
____________________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
We are the BLU. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
#6 Jul 02 2009 at 3:42 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
Besically if you have carbuncle out instead of you casting cure 1 you'd command carby to cast cure 1. But you as a character could not directly help the party, you couldn't cast cure 1 with carby or else you'd be overpowered.


I don't think you'd be overpowered. You'd be burning through mana twice as fast, because you'd be casting twice as many spells. I think summoners should be about micromanaging your character and the summon at once. Let each summon have access to the more high-end abilities (e.g. Ifrit has the ability to cast the highest rank fire spell, a few melee abilities and his big 'Aeon Drive' or whatever) and let the summoner have a few abilities that AUGMENT THE SUMMONS.

Now you can't be casting cure twice at the same time in the first place. If we're talking about the point system where the summoner can then equip the cure spell, let him. It'd be no different than any other class doing it; the summoner would have to learn how to pace his mana usage better. Just another pet class, with a ton more emphasis on pets than the character -- i don't really see anything wrong with that.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#7 Jul 02 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
I mentioned this in another thread, but I feel that summons would feel more appropriate in an MMO if they were used by multiple (if not all classes) in a manner similar to the 2-hour spells right now.

That would allow summons to remain as very powerful trump spells. While a summoner class works good in single player games due to heavy restrictions of MP cost, in an MMO it would simply be imbalanced if summons were significantly strong.

I've always felt akward seeing Summons run around in such highly weakened forms as they are in FFXI.
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#8 Jul 02 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Quote:
I've always felt akward seeing Summons run around in such highly weakened forms as they are in FFXI.


I kind of feel the same way. However, I don't really like the idea of every character being able to only use 1 summon either. I'm hoping this 'points' system (or some equivalent) comes in and if people want, they can carry 4-5 summons on them at the cost of not having as many other abilities.

All of the sudden, a materia system sounds really excellent. Or a grid system.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#9 Jul 02 2009 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Kharmageddon wrote:
Quote:
I've always felt akward seeing Summons run around in such highly weakened forms as they are in FFXI.


I kind of feel the same way. However, I don't really like the idea of every character being able to only use 1 summon either. I'm hoping this 'points' system (or some equivalent) comes in and if people want, they can carry 4-5 summons on them at the cost of not having as many other abilities.

All of the sudden, a materia system sounds really excellent. Or a grid system.

What if it was a system something along the lines of...

Each job has a set of 3 out of 10-15 summons. Each individual summon is thus shared by 2-3 jobs. And you must chose between one of the three summons to equip at any one time (And they share a cooldown so you can't switch between summons to use them multiple times in every 2-hours).

That would probably somewhat force people to use a variety of summons, instead of everyone running around using Bahumut (or Shiva for the pervs :P )
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#10 Jul 02 2009 at 5:24 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
I don't know about that... because then people will just choose the path that gets them bahamut. We'll have a ton of players filling that role, simply because their summon looks like the king of dragons, regardless how practical anything else about it is.
____________________________
Future FFXIV Player
Anguish - 80 Death Knight (Retired)
Vor - 60 Warlock (pre-BC) (Retired)
#11 Jul 02 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
45 posts
Quote:
no real jobs


Where are people getting that from? I swear in an interview they said they would be keeping it so you can swap jobs when you like, so that must mean they exist, even if they are different.

On topic though, I kinda like how Summons work in XI, in terms of getting them I mean. The solo battles were a challenge n it felt soooo good when you won one. I'd like them to make summons hard to get again. Would be nice to be able to show people you accomplished something **** hard. :3

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 10:58am by SourMonster
#12 Jul 02 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
62 posts
Quote:
FFXIV Summoner... How?

By reading the interviews you'd know that weapons will be a big part of the game. Thus picking the right weapon will make you a SMN. Not to mention SE has repeatedly said they liked FFXI's jobs and will be bringing them over with new added jobs. I see us at lv.1 being either a Onion knight or Freelancer and along our path of growth, take up a quest which will lead us to our desired job(s).
____________________________
Ex-FFXI Player. Future FFXIV player. ヽ(´▽`)ノ
#13 Jul 02 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
One thing we'd need to know is whether or not FFXIV will have subjobs. If it does, that alone would greatly diminish the ability of a Smn if they just control the avatar.

I would really like to see avatars that don't cost anything over time (just the summoning cost).

But, I don't want them to be as effective as a single player, because I want to see the Smn itself get some abilities and functionality.

Maybe have a debuff/buff system that the Smn uses while the avatar fights on its own (though you can also give it commands).

So, you would have to cast your own spells, as well as be sure to use a spell that increases fire damage by 50% just before Ifrit uses an ability.

And, maybe allow the Smn to "channel" other avatars and spirits while one is out. So, while Shiva is beating up a crab, you can channel Diabolos to usea half-effective Aspir or Ifrit to use a Provoke while your Shiva heals itself (but the threat boost will only last 5 seconds instead of 10).

[EDIT]

Quote:
By reading the interviews you'd know that weapons will be a big part of the game. Thus picking the right weapon will make you a SMN. Not to mention SE has repeatedly said they liked FFXI's jobs and will be bringing them over with new added jobs. I see us at lv.1 being either a Onion knight or Freelancer and along our path of growth, take up a quest which will lead us to our desired job(s).


I would love to start as an Onion Knight. <3 Though, I am also REALLY hoping it is equally capable at endgame.

And, maybe they'll do it FFT style with the second option (leading to magical jobs first-off) will be the Chemist.

I'd like the latter to exist just to make potions an actual part of the every-day game.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 3:16pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#14 Jul 02 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,578 posts
Summoner should be the king of spike damage like they are in every other FF game. Their buffs also need to be much more powerful.
____________________________
Filian - Elvaan - Ifrit
Samurai
White Mage
Corsair
Ninja
Dancer
#15 Jul 02 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
I think that players will probably have to obtain little balls that they use to capture monsters and then release them to fight other captured monsters.
____________________________
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#16 Jul 02 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
One of the things I was originally trying to point out, but I think most posters missed:

In the summoner class system ( meaning not the every job has access to summons, but there is one specific job that can summon) I intended for the summoner to be able to fulfill any party requirement. Meaning that summoning 'Titan' would give your party a Tank, controlled by the summoner. Summoning 'Ifrit' would give your party a melee magic Fire DPS, 'Rahmuh' would give you a ranged magic lightning DPS, 'Leviathan' would be a magic support/healer, 'Carbuncle' would be a pure magic healer, 'Odin' would be a physical melee DPS... etc etc.

The problem summoners would face in this mechanism would be specializing in certain types of avatars. IE: Do I specialize my summoner for magic ranged/melee DPS? Or for physical ranged/melee DPS? Or do I focus on tanking with Titan as a magical tank or Alexander as a physical tank?

It would make the job a true hybrid of all the classes, being able to fill any group slot. Like all FF games, it would probably be the hardest to level up, as you would inevitably have to get the summons as a different job.

I mentioned in the OP that I didn't want to see a party of all summoners too, and showed a few ways that this could be prevented. i.e: a summon healer (carbuncle) can't heal other summons.

This system of course ignores the sub-job system of FFXI, but maybe you could get a few learned spells from other jobs. If any job can do the same thing. (meaning: if the warrior can cast cure, the summoner can cast it as well).
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#17 Jul 03 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,020 posts
Quote:
In the summoner class system ( meaning not the every job has access to summons, but there is one specific job that can summon) I intended for the summoner to be able to fulfill any party requirement. Meaning that summoning 'Titan' would give your party a Tank, controlled by the summoner. Summoning 'Ifrit' would give your party a melee magic Fire DPS, 'Rahmuh' would give you a ranged magic lightning DPS, 'Leviathan' would be a magic support/healer, 'Carbuncle' would be a pure magic healer, 'Odin' would be a physical melee DPS... etc etc.


I REALLY don't mean ANY harm in saying this--that is a terrible idea.

History in MMOs has long told us that letting one job/class do everything is bad enough (you end up with thousands of that job/class), and makes things horribly difficult to balance.

Look at it this way: A Pld can only really have one role. Even if they give them the ability to deal damage in XIV, that is only two. Unless he is a better tank than the Smn, they'll likely take the latter because that gives them the ability to change things up if someone leaves. Like, if the Whm goes and a Nin is seeking, the Smn can change from tank to healer.

In response, sometimes the hybrids don't have as much power in their role, but are a sort of acceptable choice if no dedicated classes are around (and sometimes not even that, like Rdm were for most of their lives). This is also terrible, because then your class is only ever wanted if NOTHING else is looking.

Quote:
The problem summoners would face in this mechanism would be specializing in certain types of avatars. IE: Do I specialize my summoner for magic ranged/melee DPS? Or for physical ranged/melee DPS? Or do I focus on tanking with Titan as a magical tank or Alexander as a physical tank?


Because of the problems I mentioned above, the only option would be to make them INCREDIBLY gear-dependent, and let all of their avatars (when geared) perform as well as the normal jobs. This prevents them from just fulfilling any role.

Quote:
It would make the job a true hybrid of all the classes, being able to fill any group slot. Like all FF games, it would probably be the hardest to level up, as you would inevitably have to get the summons as a different job.


This is going against the mission statement of XIV though. And it severely effects group play (especially with regular groups). If the Smn levels slower, the player would have to put in far more effort just to keep up with friends. Getting the summons is one thing that will probably be included (and rightly so), but making it harder to level is just not good business.

Quote:
I mentioned in the OP that I didn't want to see a party of all summoners too, and showed a few ways that this could be prevented. i.e: a summon healer (carbuncle) can't heal other summons.


But now you have made them even less appealing. If you are looking for a group and two Smns are looking, you will only take one and continue looking (depending on what role you are looking for).

If two Drgs were looking, you'd take them. It is unfair to so actively make two of one class not work together.


It is an okay idea, if these problems could be addressed, but I don't like it, personally.

I think the Smn in FFXIV should be a DD with off-support. The trick is to make sure they do the same damage for about the same mp (relative to mp levels and time meant to withstand) as other jobs. The support aspect is easily tweaked as needed (if their haste effect is too strong, tweak it or change it, etc.)

I hope there isn't a "jack of all trades" character. If we are getting most of the XI jobs, and more, I would rather diversity was fostered.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#18 Jul 03 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
11 posts
I am starting to get the feeling that they are going to work in avatars in a completely different way this time and we will technically all be summoners. After reading what the Wikibase says on weapons playing an important roll in character development and looking at the new logo again (noticing that as you move around, the weapons shift to different colors), I am starting to get the feeling that each weapon will represent an avatar and/or element and what type we choose defines what type of character we have. Titan's weapon could possibly help with damage mitigation, Ifrit's could be damage output, etcetera. The more time you spend wielding each of these weapons may allow you to build a unique character class to a point. I'm kind of going out on a limb here but in my super tired state, this makes moderate sense to me.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)