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#1 Jul 02 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I went into the FFXIV information site and found this:

Quote:
The developers have said they have a plan for players to fight multiple mobs at one time.


I really do think its a great idea to be able to fight many mobs at ones cuz for me, it gives me the feeling of actually being inside the game. Rather than looking for one monster, kill it, look for another, it's more like actually being in the battlefield and fighting to survive or to reach your goal.

The only thing I'm worried about is that they might make it like Ragnarok Online or Maple Story where everyone just go outside and kill as many monsters as they can by themselves and lvl up. It's really boring that way and there isn't as much challenges in terms of getting your character stronger. If they could keep the same feel as FFXI where instead time, hardwork is needed to get your characters stronger, many of us would appreciate it.

So I'm just really hoping that they can program it that way.
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#2 Jul 02 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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I'm kind of hoping for the normal mode of leveling to resemble Besieged or Campaign (although I quit before that was implemented... sounds great though, and I almost came back just for it).

Really, I mainly want to heal (at least for a while), and I'd prefer to just kind of wander into a free-for-all and help out whomever looks like they need it the most. I never leveled WHM past 37, so I didn't get to try it out in Besieged. I guess I just got all the melee out of my system in XI, so now I want to heal, nuke, and maybe buff... Seems like all that would be pretty fun in a larger-scale battle where I'm not stuck with the same 5 people at all times.
#3 Jul 02 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'd prefer to just kind of wander into a free-for-all and help out whomever looks like they need it the most.


Although I admit that that is a pretty good idea. The thing about that is, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of jerks/show-offs/etc (no offence) in XI, not to mention any other MMORPG games. Those people will probably abuse that freedom and start stealing other's mobs. I've seen that happened in many other mmorpg games I've played in the past, and it really does bother me, and most likely some or most of you out there.
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#4 Jul 02 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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Kakinashi wrote:
The only thing I'm worried about is that they might make it like Ragnarok Online

That would make me happy pants.

Ragnarok Online's fighting while traveling was a lot better than the camping style of FFXI. It felt very explorative.

Running around the map, fighting things as you go. Particularly enjoyable when you were fighting things that took a minute or so to kill, so you were having to be careful not to aggro anything else or you'd get eaten alive.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 8:06pm by Karelyn
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#5 Jul 02 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Running around the map, fighting things as you go. Particularly enjoyable when you were fighting things that took a minute or so to kill, so you were having to be careful not to aggro anything else or you'd get eaten alive.


Though I really do respect that fact that you enjoy that style. But for me, I don't see how that can be exciting. Running around killing everything you see is pretty much the same thing as being leeched. I don't see much work in it. FFXI at least requires teamwork and hard work, and everyone actually has a role that they should follow in a party. If we get everyone running around killing everything, people will start spreading out and that whole notion of MMORPG, traveling and working together with your friends/party member will start to fade out. Personally, I like playing FFXI just for that reason; to be able to role-play. Having to do an adventure with others. But that's just me.
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#6 Jul 02 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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Kakinashi wrote:
For me, I don't see how that can be exciting. Running around killing everything you see is pretty much the same thing as being leeched. If we get everyone running around killing everything, people will start spreading out and that whole notion of MMORPG, traveling and working together with your friends/party member will start to fade out.

Um, not really. I assume you never did higher level EXP parties in FFXI. You typically did groups of 3-4 people, and you had to work together. If one person went off on their own, they would die and the entire party would wipe. You had to protect each other's backs in order not to die.

There was a ton of teamwork, and it was really social; likewise, you weren't killing things randomly, you were focus attacking single targets, just like in FFXI.

But you were traveling through the map as you did so, instead of sitting in a camp. This was more due to the way monsters spawned in Ragnarok Online. Due to the way spawning worked in that game, it would make camping a very poor way to gain EXP.

EDIT: Private Servers for Ragnarok Online, due to frequently having heavy multiplers on EXP, often wound up with people not ever doing EXP parties, so if you played on a Ragnarok Online Private Server, you may have no idea what I was talking about. In the official servers, you eventually reached the point where it was significantly less efficient (And ****, less fun), to try and level without a party.

EDIT EDIT: Part of why EXP Parties were ****-o-alotta fun in Ragnarok Online, was due to the greater ease of building a party. You didn't need a rigid structure to build a strong party. Every class had abilities to bring to a group, and almost any combination of 3-4 classes could party well together, even if they did not have a healer in the group. This made finding and making groups very easy, and a lot of fun.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: I <3 RO, really do. I miss it :(

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 8:52pm by Karelyn
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#7 Jul 02 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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people will start spreading out

Good. In FFXI, at least when I played, you went to pretty specific cpots. Deviating and going to different zones was the exception, not the rule. Everyone crowded into certian spots, fighting over mobs. Doing the same path with every job.
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#8 Jul 02 2009 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Though I really do respect that fact that you enjoy that style. But for me, I don't see how that can be exciting. Running around killing everything you see is pretty much the same thing as being leeched. I don't see much work in it. FFXI at least requires teamwork and hard work, and everyone actually has a role that they should follow in a party. If we get everyone running around killing everything, people will start spreading out and that whole notion of MMORPG, traveling and working together with your friends/party member will start to fade out. Personally, I like playing FFXI just for that reason; to be able to role-play. Having to do an adventure with others. But that's just me.


There's no reason the game can't be designed to allow groups to travel around and kill things together. It would still team work, coordination and everyone knowing their job/role. We just wouldn't be stuck standing in the same place all the time. Mobility is fun. Exploration is fun. Camping is boring.

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Quote:
Quoted Text
Good. In FFXI, at least when I played, you went to pretty specific cpots. Deviating and going to different zones was the exception, not the rule. Everyone crowded into certian spots, fighting over mobs. Doing the same path with every job.


Variety is the spice of life, right?
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#9 Jul 02 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping that fighting mobs is kind of like doing 'zhen' parties in Perfect World, where the group stands close together and one or two people (tanks or heavily armored DDs) go out and pull monsters toward the group and use AoE to hold aggro, while the DDs in the group do AoE damage and the healers do AoE heals and buffs.

Rinse and repeat.

It's pretty good because you can have 10 mobs from each puller getting killed every few seconds.

Of course, in order to do this you need hierograms which you had to buy for a LOT of game gold...or cheaply from the cash shop, in order to regularly replenish the MP that you lost by doing constant AoE.

Although, I'm imagining it would be different in the sense that there would not be "pullers". Instead the enemies would just come at you from everywhere, and you had to stand together and work as a team to kill them.
The battle scene in the E3 video makes me think that.

The only problem with this, that I can see, if that they want to allow for more solo play. And well...having multiple mobs thrown at you probably wouldn't work for solo play.

I guess if you were going to play solo then you might have to do a "kill one monster - find another - kill another monster" routine.
That's why I love partying...much more interesting than by yourself.
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#10 Jul 02 2009 at 6:08 PM Rating: Default
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I liked the idea of having an camp compared to just running around and killing stuff. In ffxi there was a few camps where you ran around (like weapons in sky back before the expansions and stuff) and it was ok, but I just personally like a camp better. I liked the feeling of getting to a place, settling in and getting comfortable. In a camp even tho the party lasted hours upon hours, at least you didn't have to be in full attention mode, you could do other things and party effectively (at least I could, some people can't multitask). With a constant moving theme all the time, you would have to be locked in all the time or be left way behind. Also with all the brbs and stuff in a party, at least you didn't risk losing and leaving people behind because 1 person said brb and the party wanted to keep killing. The camp way, a person can say brb and you could continue killing (at the same pace, or close to it) without the risk of leaving a party member behind just because he had to use the bathroom or something.
#11 Jul 02 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The only problem with this, that I can see, if that they want to allow for more solo play. And well...having multiple mobs thrown at you probably wouldn't work for solo play.


Unless characters can handle multiple enemies at once while soloing. I mean, that's pretty common in a lot of games.

Quote:
I liked the idea of having an camp compared to just running around and killing stuff. In ffxi there was a few camps where you ran around (like weapons in sky back before the expansions and stuff) and it was ok, but I just personally like a camp better. I liked the feeling of getting to a place, settling in and getting comfortable. In a camp even tho the party lasted hours upon hours, at least you didn't have to be in full attention mode, you could do other things and party effectively (at least I could, some people can't multitask). With a constant moving theme all the time, you would have to be locked in all the time or be left way behind. Also with all the brbs and stuff in a party, at least you didn't risk losing and leaving people behind because 1 person said brb and the party wanted to keep killing. The camp way, a person can say brb and you could continue killing (at the same pace, or close to it) without the risk of leaving a party member behind just because he had to use the bathroom or something.


All of these objections can be fairly easily designed around. I think what would be nice is if the game supported multiple play styles. Camp and pull, run and kill, and solo variations of both. then everyone is happy.
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#12 Jul 02 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
I liked the idea of having an camp compared to just running around and killing stuff. In ffxi there was a few camps where you ran around (like weapons in sky back before the expansions and stuff) and it was ok, but I just personally like a camp better.


The camp style is something SE might consider for FFXIV. It's also exceptionally dull and doesn't fit with the notion of groups fighting multiple mobs simultaneously. If you're in a group of six and you are routinely fighting 4-6+ mobs at a time, unless those mobs always come in paced/triggered waves, you're quite often better off bringing the group to the mobs instead of bringing the mobs to the group. The camp style in FFXI was a benefit to the casters who could rest and regen mana while the puller was out grabbing the next mob. There are ways to tune a game so that that sort of fight -> rest -> fight -> rest pattern is unnecessary.

In content tuned to be manageable in 1-2 hour chunks, I don't think that expecting people to remain focused on the objectives of the party is unrealistic. I can see how the option to take a more casual approach to team play would be a benefit if you're looking at a four hour xp session. In a one hour group activity, keeping on task and up to speed with the party is a reasonable request to make of each player; ideally, if they're not able to focus for that long they ought not to have joined the group in the first place.
#13 Jul 02 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I found just the opposite, I find that just running around killing everything in sight, gets quite dull real quick. Also this requires less teamwork at a higher level. Now you might say no it don't, but at a higher level, mobs have to be easy enough where you could just run and kill everything (multiple mobs cant be very strong), so you can just mindlessly run out and attack stuff without much teamwork at all. Kind of how merit parties require less teamwork then lower parties, merit you can just attack and go (since you are strong enough to survive for way longer even if people take forever to help you). So even if you don't really admit it, there is some kind of reduction in teamwork even if its still some teamwork in running around killing everything in sight.
#14 Jul 02 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
I found just the opposite, I find that just running around killing everything in sight, gets quite dull real quick. Also this requires less teamwork at a higher level. Now you might say no it don't, but at a higher level, mobs have to be easy enough where you could just run and kill everything (multiple mobs cant be very strong), so you can just mindlessly run out and attack stuff without much teamwork at all. Kind of how merit parties require less teamwork then lower parties, merit you can just attack and go (since you are strong enough to survive for way longer even if people take forever to help you). So even if you don't really admit it, there is some kind of reduction in teamwork even if its still some teamwork in running around killing everything in sight.


Unfortunately, you've gone and contradicted yourself. On one hand, you herald the benefits of camps because they allow you to multitask and focus your attention on things other than what is going on in the party, which is not something you can do in a roaming party. Then you suggest that roaming parties require less teamwork. I think a huge part of teamwork is everyone making an equal effort, not just 5 people hanging around in a rocky alcove spamming emotes and goofing around while the puller is out cruising for the next juicy xp mob.
#15 Jul 02 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Not a contradiction, because you are not 100% locked into the screen, doesn't mean it requires less teamwork. I don't mean being downstairs away from everything for a long time (since pulls dont take that long), I mean just take your eyes off the screen for a second without "Oh crap mane, where are yal at". It does require more teamwork because in order to make it where parties fight multiple mobs at a time and travels, the mobs can't be strong, unless it turns into a camp. Its not really running around killing, if everytime you get to a wave you have to stop and "camp" for 20-30mins, so the mobs have to be somewhat easy. Teamwork as in order for a basic camp party to be successful, you have to have a good puller, then a good tank to take it off the puller fast, then a party to kill and keep mp and hp up, and do this at a fast pace. Now Teamwork in a higher level travel and multiple enemies style, its just run and people hit what 1 person hits, and just keep running and keep going, until your forced to stop (if you are), to rest or something. That to me requires teamwork sure, but not as much as a camp setup. That requires you to be more active on the game (as in pay more attention), but paying more attention doesn't mean more teamwork, it means just that, paying more attention or getting lost.
#16 Jul 02 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Not a contradiction, because you are not 100% locked into the screen, doesn't mean it requires less teamwork. I don't mean being downstairs away from everything for a long time (since pulls dont take that long), I mean just take your eyes off the screen for a second without "Oh crap mane, where are yal at". It does require more teamwork because in order to make it where parties fight multiple mobs at a time and travels, the mobs can't be strong, unless it turns into a camp. Its not really running around killing, if everytime you get to a wave you have to stop and "camp" for 20-30mins, so the mobs have to be somewhat easy. Teamwork as in order for a basic camp party to be successful, you have to have a good puller, then a good tank to take it off the puller fast, then a party to kill and keep mp and hp up, and do this at a fast pace. Now Teamwork in a higher level travel and multiple enemies style, its just run and people hit what 1 person hits, and just keep running and keep going, until your forced to stop (if you are), to rest or something. That to me requires teamwork sure, but not as much as a camp setup. That requires you to be more active on the game (as in pay more attention), but paying more attention doesn't mean more teamwork, it means just that, paying more attention or getting lost.


I think you're thinking from an exclusively FFXI perspective. Other MMOs provide a better platform for demonstrating how multiple mob combat could be implemented. SE might do something entirely different from what has been done in other MMOs, but it's a safe bet it's not going to be move -> camp for '20-30' minutes while fighting off waves of mobs -> move again -> camp again -> repeat. That might comprise a part of the group content. I'd be surprised and disappointed if it represented in any way the majority of group content.
#17 Jul 02 2009 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I liked the idea of having an camp compared to just running around and killing stuff. In ffxi there was a few camps where you ran around (like weapons in sky back before the expansions and stuff) and it was ok, but I just personally like a camp better. I liked the feeling of getting to a place, settling in and getting comfortable. In a camp even tho the party lasted hours upon hours, at least you didn't have to be in full attention mode, you could do other things and party effectively (at least I could, some people can't multitask). With a constant moving theme all the time, you would have to be locked in all the time or be left way behind. Also with all the brbs and stuff in a party, at least you didn't risk losing and leaving people behind because 1 person said brb and the party wanted to keep killing. The camp way, a person can say brb and you could continue killing (at the same pace, or close to it) without the risk of leaving a party member behind just because he had to use the bathroom or something.


While I've learned to take advantage of long stretches of almost no activity (or activity that I can easily multi-task during), I would prefer a game that was involving enough to keep my attention. After all, I'm paying money to play a game, not blog, IM, do homework or play solitaire between meaningful actions.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 2:13am by keelut
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#18 Jul 02 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The developers have said they have a plan for players to fight multiple mobs at one time.


They never said that this was going to be done Solo.

Maybe that's the difference between a party and solo-play, you can take multiples at once.
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