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What I DON'T want:Follow

#1 Jul 03 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I've seen a lot of topics with both speculation and hopeful wishing stating that xxx person would like yyy feature found in zzz game. Here's my outlook on this:

I DON'T want another clone of every other MMO that I've ever seen. It seems that *with only a couple of exceptions* every MMO that comes out is a reskinning of another MMO that was already on the market. Most of them I refer to as WoW clones. Nearly everything put into the game seems to follow the same formula as its "original" counterpart.

I tried out the Aion Online beta yesterday. I'll say, it's pretty. The game runs smoothly, and even for a beginner, it's easy to jump in, get started, and have fun. As far as the game play experience, however, it's the same exact feeling I got when I played WoW.

As far as WoW goes, I enjoyed the game, but the game play felt really detached. I felt like I was playing a game rather than escaping into another world. When I play FFXI, it's the opposite. FFXI feels more like an extension of myself rather than just a game. I'll admit that most of that feeling comes from the control scheme of the game. I'm much more comfortable with a keyboard alone than with anything else. I absolutely loathe the use of a mouse for controlling any games other than RTS and FPS type games. Controller, I can use and be ok, but it still gives me that detached feeling if I do.


I don't want FFXIV *has anyone made the FFHIV joke yet? lolz FFAIDS* to give you some new quest each level that basically says "Go kill this mob and bring me x# of this quest item for yyy# of EXP and a bit of gil." The questing system in FFXI could have used a bit of work itself, but I felt that it was more involved than the superficial quests that no one thinks about. Some of my favorite quests involved the fellowship quests. They had real story behind them that unfolded as you achieved the goals. It felt like what you were doing actually had some meaning.

I don't want FFXIV to put everyone on similar grounds regardless of what gear they are wearing. I want to be proud of the hard work I've put into my character. The best way I can think of to do so, is for there to be a noticeable performance difference between myself and the run-of-the-mill player. In FFXI, that is usually achieved by proper gear swaps with the right gear. People have their opinions of gear swapping. Mine is this: If it's what's necessary to maximize myself, then I'll do it. If it's not necessary *as in they find a way around it* then whatever is necessary, I'll do it. *the debate on gear swaps needs to stay in the other thread that's devoted to it.*

I don't want a world that makes you feel like some kind of outsider or tourist. Most MMOs have such a superficial feel to them that even the home nations make it seem as though you're just some tourist passing through. FFXI, however, makes you really feel like a citizen of the nation you choose.
#2 Jul 03 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont think its gonna be a problem. I think Square Enix is confidant enough in their own ip to make a game thats true to FF and not a blantant WoW reskin.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 2:55pm by mezlabor
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#3 Jul 03 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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One problem MMOs have is they can't progress the world with the story unless they made some story that's ongoing and real-time. They can partially do this by unlocking new areas as you go but how do they give you that "We must go on" feeling when anyone can and may bail out at any time.

For instance, halfway through FF6 the whole world goes through major dramatic changes. Or like the beginning of FF7, you're stuck in the huge city of Midgar unaware of how big the world is outside, parts of that city are even destroyed and can never be revisited. Something as simple as defeating a boss can change the way a whole city functions. How can you work these types of story elements into an MMO?
#4 Jul 03 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Westyle wrote:
How can you work these types of story elements into an MMO?


Wizards.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 3:10pm by BeastmenLord
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#5 Jul 03 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, this is something that the WotLK Expansion tried recently. They worked triggers into quests (either when you accept or complete one) that "phased" you into another environment.

Sometimes, this was simple--a new NPC would appear and others would disappear along with some graphical changes. In others, it was intricate--whole areas radically changing (like getting engulfed in flames or a whole new "town" area springing up.

However, most (if not all) phases only show you the players sharing that phase. So, if one zone has level 1, 2, 3 and 4. Level 3 players can only see other PCs on level 3.

This has both pros and cons, though. On one hand, it is nice because it lets you feel like your actions are changing the world.

But it is important to remember that WoW is a VERY solo-oriented game before hitting the level cap. Only a few quests are designed for group play, and most of those were not phase quests. But, FFXIV wants to make both solo and group play available (if not completely equal in returns) for all stages of the game. It could get very annoying, very fast for groups who are trying to finish quests while everyone in the zone is on a different phase. Some people may not have access to the NPC or boss yet, others may have defeated the boss and progressed to a new phase (so they can't see it and thus can't help you).

But I agree with you about the quests. Personally, I rather see a ton of mission-level quests (without them necessarily being so intricate and require so much travel) than stupid "kill 10 rarab" quests. That is just rewarding grinding. It may give SOME story depth in some way, but it really isn't that deep (even if you are killing officers of the Shadow Lord or something).

I would like SE to really think about how the world should change. If there are multiple nations, I want the balance of power to MEAN something. Like, with armies traversing areas and changing the gameplay in areas under their control.

I want trade caravans to go between towns and nations, offering some kind of reward for helping protect them or destroy them.

I want a dynamic world. Not one where the balance of power changes the way two NPCs act. I DO think SE can give us this--I have faith in them. Let's just hope that faith isn't misplaced. I mean, FFXI was impressive when it was released. Here's hoping XIV is even more impressive.
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#6 Jul 03 2009 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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something I think would be interesting in an MMO is a dynamic seasonal story. Something that you get installments with each seasonal event. If you miss an installment, you're just SOL.

Something where the story progresses whether you're there or not kinda thing. Would just be a cool thing that's nothing major by any means but would keep people on their toes.
#7 Jul 03 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
I don't want to see Green Mages. I've had enough green magic between FFXII and FFTA2.
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#8 Jul 03 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's important to remember WoW is not the progenitor of alot of the features we often attribute to it. Some of it comes from single player games (Minimap: RTS genre), some of it comes from previous MMOs (Enchanting Armor with associated glow: Lineage II), but there's very little that's not a clever spit and polish of someone else's idea.

Don't get me wrong, there's no sin in this. Taking good ideas and improving on them is nothing but good business sense and good news for the playerbase. And part of the genius of WoW was Blizzard picking the right Vegetables for their MMO Salad. But just because WoW is famous, doesn't mean it gets to monopolize features.

About the only thing I'd really put Aion and other MMOs on copyright trial for is the use of icons above NPCs to denote the availability/completeness of a quest. But even then Aion does it's own spit shine and polish by including these marks on your regional map. As well as giving you the capability to create a marker that locates an NPC, item or mob on your map by following a hypertext link in the chatlog of a quest.

Casual Questing + 1

I agree story dynamism has always been a problem in MMOs.
"Go kill X of Y" is a well worn staple from ye olde MUDs that's anachronistic in today's market. In the case of MUDs, it was just one guy trying to rewrite thousands of lines of the Envy Mud source code to fit his favorite theme, so of course things were short and sweet. When MUDs went graphical and became MMOs they were still burdened by crappy quests because it was such a niche market people didn't want to invest the resources into writing. Nowadays the MMO market has money and resources in spades, so there's really no excuse for that cutting corners approach to questing anymore. WoW had the means, but disinclined to push the envelope until recently, and it's previous market dominance gave the illusion it's questing system was something worthy of emulating.


That being said, advancements are taking place.
In WotLK as Idiggory stated, quest chains utilizing phased environments are helping to give the sense of story progression. Aion actually went and hired some professional writers and acquiring quests follows more like a one-sided conversation than an order. The market seems to be heading in that direction, finally.

If anyone is going to reinvent the storyline wheel it's Square Enix.
Not only do they have the means, as a company that's built it's reputation on storytelling it has a motive.



I want to add my own "What I DON'T want"
One dimensional Crafting.
In Aion you got a nice chunk of EXP for Crafting and even Gathering, in Free Realms crafting and gathering were minigames. I think gathering could stand to be the mindless grind people can do without thinking, but crafting needs to be more interactive and rewarding.



Edited, Jul 3rd 2009 5:05pm by Zemzelette
#9 Jul 03 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't want people complaining about a game that we can't play yet. Smiley: grin
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#10 Jul 03 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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B-but, if we can't complain, what ever will we talk about?
XD

#11 Jul 03 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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If there are multiple nations, I want the balance of power to MEAN something.

Agreed, but only to a point. In FFXI it was often 1 or 2 nations that really cleaned up often. Windy was usually first or second on my server when I played with Sandy close behind and Bastok usually in third. I think they need to make it a little easier for the underdog to gain ground so it doesn't become too lopsided, especially if the balance of power makes a larger impact.
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#12 Jul 03 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest, as long as FF:XIV has the story, setting(the world and the environment) and other FF goodies(chocobos, crystals, summons etc) from the other FF games, I don't really mind if the ui and some of the gameplay is taken from WoW etc.

Yes, FF:XI was/is a very original MMO in most aspects (mostly because it didn't really have anything to copy from at the time but still..) - but the ui, combat and player-customization was pretty bad. :/
#13 Jul 03 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't want people complaining about a game that we can't play yet.


This. It's true. I have REALLY high expectations for FFXIV. XI was my first MMO (I played online games before it, though, like DI, DII:LoD and WCIII). I had no expectations and LOVED it. I played for several years (though, I never really got far. An indecisive nature meant I was ALWAYS changing races and jobs, but I really loved my lS and would just run around the starting areas and towns talking for hours).

This, obviously, will be a problem. I'm just trying to expect something that will be fun and with a good story/graphics. And, if I'm lucky, I'll find a good LS like my old one (who knows, maybe they'll start one in XIV and my old friends will also come to it).

SE is known for bringing up new ideas. Some times they work well. Other times they don't. For example, I know a lot of people that loved the XII battle system but were bored to death by the story. An MMO has a LOT of leniency, so we can hope for the best.

Quote:
Agreed, but only to a point. In FFXI it was often 1 or 2 nations that really cleaned up often. Windy was usually first or second on my server when I played with Sandy close behind and Bastok usually in third. I think they need to make it a little easier for the underdog to gain ground so it doesn't become too lopsided, especially if the balance of power makes a larger impact.


I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I want it to actually influence the STORY. Like allow different events to open up in different areas based on the combination of areas controlled. I don't think any player should get penalized because their nation has fewer players. I just meant that, using FFXI as an example, if Windy managed to control all the zones between it and Jeuno, it could open up a big event for as long as they did.

Same thing with, say, Windy and Bastok. Or, if San d'Oria controlled all the nations around Jeuno, open up quests from there based around that.

And, the more zones controlled, the "livlier" the town could get. So, let the markets in Sandy flood with NPCs and travelling merchants. Make them available to any player, regardless of nationality, but put them there. Even if no new items are sold (new meaning items not sold there by default), the sheer volume of vendors would allow for faster shopping and give an influence of excess, wealth and power.

Something so that people don't suffer from a lack of players (on my server, Windy was always first and Sandy second, so you could NEVER get Windy fame from the instrument vendor in Bastok), but you actually want to try and get your nation in power.
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#14 Jul 03 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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I don't want to run out of that feeling that I'm always improving. I want some stat bonus for every class at the level cap applied to my current class, or better yet every 10 levels of any other class, say a 1% bonus in the stat most favored by the class. So for example, if I have 100hp in my current class and 50 levels as a monk, I would have 105hp. The exact numbers could vary to make this more or less relevant. I just think it should make a difference whether you've mastered two classes or ten, and this way there could be some variance in the strengths of endgame bosses designed for folks at the level cap and those making a return trip.

I don't want to get a new credit card just to play the game. I know this may seem silly to some people, but please, Square, take Discover. Or let me buy prepaid cards at 7-11 like every other online game under the sun (I don't actually know that, it's just the impression I got my last time in to 7-11)

I don't want to be gratuitously punished for my mistakes. Please don't make me spend hours re-earning exp every time I die. Especially if there's anything that can kill me in one hit due to stats or level 5 death or whatnot. If I get killed once and keep running headlong into the wall, then punish me, but the first oops (per dungeon or per hour or something) should be a mulligan.
#15 Jul 03 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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Oh and I don't want SE to drop the plans they've spent the last 5 years drawing up just because they see a post on a message board that says "FFXIV must ....."

Unless I wrote it, in which case that's totally cool
#16 Jul 04 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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I don't want anything discussed on this forum. In fact, I want this forum erased and reset once the game actually comes out so the shame of it will be forever hidden.
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#17 Jul 09 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This would make me happy:

- everything is doable with 3-6 people
- decent amount of (worthwhile) solo content
- no WoW re-skin
- bigger numbers to work with so we don't have to deal with horizontal improvements again and a serious player will be noticeably better than a casual player
#18 Jul 09 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
In fact, I want this forum erased and reset once the game actually comes out so the shame of it will be forever hidden.


Pretty much this.
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#19 Jul 09 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Banggugyangu wrote:
I don't want FFXIV *has anyone made the FFHIV joke yet? lolz FFAIDS* to give you some new quest each level that basically says "Go kill this mob and bring me x# of this quest item for yyy# of EXP and a bit of gil."


I always get a kick out of statements like that. I mean, who would want quests that send you off to parts of an area you likely otherwise wouldn't have spent much time in? Especially when you could do something more diverse and interesting like...oh, I dunno...kill 10000 crabs and beat the sh*t out of an old man to reach the level cap.

Just sayin'.


Edited, Jul 9th 2009 10:01pm by AureliusSir
#20 Jul 09 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I don't want is a million different in-game point system, refering to CP, IS, imperial money, Zeni, Jett (or whatever you buy fun-savers with), AN, ancient currency, and so on. I'm all for separated currencies, but they should be more consistent in nature (physical imperial coins, c'mon now), concise (we don't need IS and coins, or zeni and jett), and readily visible (right there next to gil, not on the global maps or in mog safe).

In short, make all these currencies work like gil does, except some would have limited transferability. There could be some money changing going on, but not to the point of "I'm buying a wotg body using my colibri-bucks". I'd be fine with each nation having their own currency and bank as well; it would add more depth to economics and in game nationalism.

My 2 cents.
#21 Jul 10 2009 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I always get a kick out of statements like that. I mean, who would want quests that send you off to parts of an area you likely otherwise wouldn't have spent much time in? Especially when you could do something more diverse and interesting like...oh, I dunno...kill 10000 crabs and beat the sh*t out of an old man to reach the level cap.

Just sayin'.


It is rare that AureliusSir and I agree entirely on this board.

But I agree entirely with Aurelius sir.

Just sayin'. (but I would have ripped on him more for the whole terrible AIDS joke thing.. really.. making fun of a horrible disease is despicable.. especially when it is a very very unfunny joke. A funny one would have made us laugh... that was just terrible. Not even because of the AIDS reference, but because it was just terrible.)


Hey anyone made the FFIV (heh.. comic genius coming up here...) I mean FF... H!... IV joke yet?

/em sits back and waits for the offers to write a sitcom to come rolling in.
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#22 Jul 10 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Short of elaborate conquest systems, having an effect on the world is rather difficult when everyone pretty much has the right to be the hero with story progression. It could be done, and players could be involved in the process of conquering, repairing, and defending, but each dose of effort would have to properly reward. Otherwise you get dead content.

As for gear swaps, I'm just kind of chuckling at the fact it had to be brought up despite the other thread. Great and all you wanna be the bestest (and probably have people recognize you for it, too), but it's a fleeting vanity. There will be gear. Some will be better than others for certain things. If the guy in crap gear does something you worked hard to do, maybe you weren't as skilled as you thought or overestimated the challenge. Get over it and move on. Swapping in XI is clunky and a poor defense for not implementing more robust itemization.

Otherwise, a short list of "DO NOT WANT!"s:
1) NMs that take over an hour to appear with crappy drop rates.
2) Content requiring 6+ people where only one or two might walk away with anything.
3) NM drops far outshadowing crafted goods.
4) Item Durability.
5) JP Midnights.
6) Weekly Tallies.
7) Obscene weather/day/time/moon phase conditions for mobs and quests.
8) Death Penalties.
9) Prohibitive Transit.
10) Lack of instanced event zones.
11) Jobs being pigeonholed into Tank/DD/Support roles.
12) Obscene cooldown timers on JAs.
13) Elemental/Status Strengths and Weaknesses meaning nothing for players and monsters alike.
14) Extensive gear swapping, especially mid-battle.
15) Scaled down stats like in XI, which lends itself to scaled down gear.
16) More than two months between updates.
17) Limited developer interaction.
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#23 Jul 10 2009 at 8:57 AM Rating: Default
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Asking what people Don't want to see is a very open ended question. There are a million and one things I don't want to see in FFXIV. Many of these were apparent in FFXI and needed to change so I am probably going to sound like a miserable SOB by creating this list.

The suggestion to have the world change as players progress is a good one, but I do think it would be very difficult to implement if it is a "complete this mission and see an enemy stronghold burn" as you would need to make any changes to the world visable to all and not everyone would have completed those missions, but I do think that if they were able to implement something like this that would not be in some way a draw back and if the proposed changes didn't take away a large chunk of development hours to introduce this world changes then I would really like to see it in the game.

I also don't want to see a complete relience on completing quest/missions to progress your level. I read or heard somewhere that SE was going to introduce player lvl progression through quests and missions.... If thats true it's a lofty ideal that is not really realistic or practical in an economic sense. I am not a huge fan of the XP grind in FFXI, but it does still have a purpose. Firstly it is a time sink,I think that as much as we might not want to admit it the coutless hours lvling killing 100,000 crawlers/crabs/imps it does teach you the limits and potential of the char and job you are using. I also really don't think it is realistic to beleave that the FFXIV Devs will have enough time to create so many quests/missions, certainly not enough to keep you playing the game for many years.

I also don't want to see half the server that is at endgame all camping 3 mobs on a 24 hour pop schedule. Have endgame events and HNM camps but maybe provide other ways of obtaining rare crafting materials/equip.

I don't want to see SE banning useful apps like windower for so many years, which actually encourages the development of those tools they are looking to ban and in addition the apps that allow others to cheat. Make the useful apps that don't exploit the system legal and have SE release an official version. Whilst were on this topic, SE should have a plan policy and stick to it. One year they are complaining about GS but doing sweet F.A. to stop it the next there all Captain Perma Ban. A lot of the exploits, Gil sales, and other illeagal activities the player base has pursued in XI. SE is very fickle over their policies.

I don't want to see the same lax attitude towards security and procedure when someones account was jacked. I played on PS2 so neither this point or the one above it ever affected me, but its still horrifying to see a company that takes $13+ a month from each subsciber offer the most lackluster service and support.

I don't want to see the same sort of plot lines, UI, or character growth that I saw in XI.... don't get me wrong I liked XI a lot, but I left because it became a little stale for me after 3 - 4 years. I wouldn't like to see the same things repeated in XIV for that reason.... although they better keep the Job + Subjobs as I thought that it was a great system which added flexability.

I don't want to see the same sorts of quests and the NPC's with a complete lack of variety.... please god SE innovate with this. If there are single player games out there that have branching storylines that display noticable changes in NPC reaction and the progression of the storyline then surely SE can add something similar.... an example in FFXI terms as you progress through the SL storyline your progression and reactions to NPC's might mean that you don't get to see the whole back story or that the end sequence/CS would still have the same result you defeat SL but the CS would be different and depending on your choices you might qualify for an extra reward.

I don't want to see a crafting system that is not fun and costs you a lot of gil for very little return. Intially the crafting system in XI was good as some of the best equipment in the game was only craftable but as SE begun to release increasingly amazing drops that didn't require crafters then it really removed any real impulse to hand over all your gil and near endless amounts of time to lvl a craft.

I don't want to see such limiting char creation tools, allow us to customize our Avatar a lot more, and please introduce a greater variety of different designs for armour and weapons. having the same armour design from lvl 1 to 50/60 but with different colors is not really going to endear me to my char. Part of the reason I liked getting my first set of AF (RDM) so much was because it was a different design and it was RED... much better than muted browns and pastel blues.

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