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On soloing vs. partyingFollow

#1 Jul 03 2009 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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It's my understanding that in FFXI, once you hit an enemy, it becomes in some sense the property of you or your party in that you get the xp and loot when it dies even if someone else in the area decides to smack it around. (Or should be).

I was wondering how difficult it would it be for FFXIV to adjust monster stats on the fly based on the number of members of your party. It could get more HP or do more damage or make more frequent use of special attacks against larger parties. This would have to be more than linear, I think in order to keep the fights interesting, at least for HP. Maybe triple for a party of two, times ten for a party of four. 'Bonus' xp could be 10% per party member, so a 100xp solo monster would be 150xp each to a party of 6 (with no reason 6 needs to be the maximum party size).

Or there could be some mechanic to generate additional foes once a battle starts against a party (Yes I know everyone but me hates random battles). Or some combination of the two. Obviously you wouldn't want multiple copies of a boss running around.

That's just my thought. Does anyone else have some ideas on how FFXIV might work for both?
#2 Jul 03 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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First off, remember that SE said that XIV would NOT have a traditional XP system. So, because of this, who has the "claim" to the monster may only affect who gets the chance to loot it.

Secondly, they also said they want combat to be more open. So you can help out someone who is fighting something without them calling for help, without you gimping their gains and, possibly, getting something for yourself in return. If they is the case, then party scaling would be kinda worthless. People would just elect to fight mobs ungrouped, to put them down fast. Look at it this way. Say helping someone kill something gave you half the AP (like for learning skills in FFTA) if you weren't in the group with the "claim."

So, say a mob normally has 100 HP. Which is faster:

6 people killing a mob with 100 HP for half the AP (one gets full, and they can rotate the puller).

6 people killing a mob with 600+ HP for a 100% bonus to AP?

Say the AP return is naturally 50. For taking out 100 HP, you get a ratio of 1 AP to 4 HP. But, if you did it in a group, you'd get 100 AP, for 600 HP, a 1 to 6 ratio. With a VERY high AP multiplier, that is far worse.

I'd expect there to be no increase in mob difficulty in a party, but a decrease to rewards (just not as extreme as in XI), so that killing something 6x as fast meant 4x less reward, or something.

And, because of the above, if they were gonna scale Health, it would have to be based on the number engaged against the mob, even if unclaimed. And, even then, that would lead to huge issues (even if they managed to code it, which would be an epically annoying thing to do), in that groups of A-holes could go around putting themselves on hate lists so that mobs got ludicrously strong and MPKing someone.

We really need more info about the rewards system before we can discuss this.
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#3 Jul 03 2009 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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idi, is it really that hard to accept that people are using XP as a placeholder for the unknown factor in advancing your char. in XIV?

I like this idea a bit, but you still have to be able to kill mobs faster as a group
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#4 Jul 03 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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righteousfury wrote:
It's my understanding that in FFXI, once you hit an enemy, it becomes in some sense the property of you or your party in that you get the xp and loot when it dies even if someone else in the area decides to smack it around. (Or should be).


No one else can attack the enemy except the first person who attacks it and his/her party. That is for the majority of the game. Kinda of it locks the ability to be attacked to only a few people.

Quote:
I was wondering how difficult it would it be for FFXIV to adjust monster stats on the fly based on the number of members of your party. It could get more HP or do more damage or make more frequent use of special attacks against larger parties. This would have to be more than linear, I think in order to keep the fights interesting, at least for HP. Maybe triple for a party of two, times ten for a party of four. 'Bonus' xp could be 10% per party member, so a 100xp solo monster would be 150xp each to a party of 6 (with no reason 6 needs to be the maximum party size).


Even if this were implemented, parties would still go for higher level mobs to compensate for exp gain. No real reason to increase the level/strength of a mob only after it has been initially attacked. The thing is though, the experience gained from attacking a monster in your system doesn't seem all that necessary. For example, I attack the mob and gain 100xp. Now I get someone else to attack with me, it gets stronger, we get 110xp each. As it is currently, should we attack a slightly stronger monster, we could get the same results. I just don't see it as a viable system.


Quote:
Or there could be some mechanic to generate additional foes once a battle starts against a party (Yes I know everyone but me hates random battles). Or some combination of the two. Obviously you wouldn't want multiple copies of a boss running around.


There are already some things in FFXI which spawn other monsters. This wouldn't be hard to implement but if you happen to grab a mob that spawns a few others and those attack, is it a random number of other mobs or a set amount. Wouldn't just grouping mobs into clusters do the same? Or increase link range?

Nice ideas but not really necessary. I personally wouldn't want more mobs to just spawn out of nowhere to attack my party because I would like to adjust tactics accordingly. My party attacks X mob, 2 more mobs spawn near healer, healer gains aggro, mobs attack, healer = dead, no thanks :P.

The way I see FFXIV being played is against many enemies but you don't get to "tag" a mob just for your party. More like Besieged style where anyone can attack and assist. Exp is divided among participants depending on contributions and parties would combine contribution, work out exp, boost for party play and then divide among members. Just my 2 cents.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 6:58am by Feyted
#5 Jul 04 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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SE said there won't be Exp to gain and your char would "grow" through other means like the weapon used.
So you might not get anything but drops from a mob if you kill it but you gain experience or skill for every attack swing with your weapon or every spell cast.
Maybe it's linked to the damage dealt/HP healed somehow.

I really wish SE would start giving out a bit of information.
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#6 Jul 04 2009 at 5:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Maybe it's linked to the damage dealt/HP healed somehow.


Oh God I hope not. The poor tanks and support classes...

If something like the FFXI Rdm exists, it will almost never advance in group play.
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#7 Jul 04 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
First off, remember that SE said that XIV would NOT have a traditional XP system. So, because of this, who has the "claim" to the monster may only affect who gets the chance to loot it.


Yes, the traditional in the sense of XI. You're naive to think that there will not be something to earn off killing mobs. JP, AP, w/e SE calls it, you will need to kill mobs to advance in the game. They will not take out the grind.
#8 Jul 04 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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They also said they want you to grow in other ways "not just" killing mobs. This further indicates that killing mobs will be a way to grow, maybe they just add other ways also, (like beseiged, campaign, quests, missions, and other things from the start of the game this time around).
#9 Jul 04 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yes, the traditional in the sense of XI. You're naive to think that there will not be something to earn off killing mobs. JP, AP, w/e SE calls it, you will need to kill mobs to advance in the game. They will not take out the grind.


Did I EVER say I THOUGHT that would be the case. No. I said it MAY be the case. And it is a possibility.

Have you considered that SE may make the ACT of fighting the source of "points?" Like, you get a percent chance on swings to generate points or something?

We were specifically talking about the claims and the effects it had. SE said that they want players to be open to help others, for mutual benefit. They aren't going to steal the claim, so any system delivering points would either have to use a second system, or the claim itself would only denote where the loot would go.
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#10 Jul 04 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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mpmaley wrote:
Quote:
First off, remember that SE said that XIV would NOT have a traditional XP system. So, because of this, who has the "claim" to the monster may only affect who gets the chance to loot it.


Yes, the traditional in the sense of XI. You're naive to think that there will not be something to earn off killing mobs. JP, AP, w/e SE calls it, you will need to kill mobs to advance in the game. They will not take out the grind.


SE already has precedent for character development in an RPG without JP, AP, XP, or any kind of "earned points from mob kills" system at all. I prefer it...enormously...to the point systems I've seen in pretty much every other RPG I've played. That's not to say that point systems are bad, but it is very much to say that point systems aren't necessary.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 11:37am by AureliusSir
#11 Jul 04 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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You don't really need to make mobs stronger for a party. In a party you simply go after stronger mobs because the ones you fight solo wouldn't be worth it.

EQOA had an "open" battle system where anyone could attack any enemy, however only the party/person that did the most damage got exp. Loot was gotten from checking the enemy's body after beating it. At first only the winning party can check it but after a few minutes pass the body can be looted by anyone.

If they want everyone to get rewarded in an open battle then it needs to be proportional to your effort like Besieged and Campaign. Otherwise you get a system where its very easy to PL low level people.
#12 Jul 04 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for all the replies. It's my hunch that we'll have AP awards and an ability system like FFIX, but I have no proof, so I'll stick with 'XP' as a term for now. The reason for my idea to boost monsters at the beginning of a fight is because I think it would be convenient to part and solo for XP in the same place, particularly if you're stuck in a range of five levels or so of things you can kill reasonably and get XP for them. Just because if you're soloing in an area and want to join up with other people soloing in the area, I'd rather stay there than go to another area. Otherwise, sure it makes perfect sense to just party in more difficult areas. The numbers I used were placeholders, they could obviously be adjusted. Maybe this would be better inside an instanced dungeon than in the outside world.

As to the later discussion about XP or whatever for use, FFX-2 might offer a hint. You got some AP (or JP whichever it was in that game) from monsters, almost always 1 each upon defeat, with more for bosses. I got most of my AP from using job abilities during battle. So anytime you're in a fight, using an ability of your current main job gets you an AP/XP. So no harm for red and white mages.

I definitely want to come out against the idea of having a 'chance' to earn points with every swing. I'd rather get less points on every swing, if they were going that route. And I'd want any action, including those of a subjob (or supplemental abilities, however that works) to get XP.

#13 Jul 04 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes I also have a feeling it's going to be a AP or JP system. Perhaps you learn you skill from your weapon by defeating your enemy and gain AP to equip the skill by advancing through the story. This would increase the importance of the story and really make you feel like your developing right along side it.
#14 Jul 05 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I just had a sudden vision of the FFX sphere grid...

They didn't have levels...

I wonder...

[EDIT]

Also, everyone needs to remember that SE is known for introducing new systems in their games. We are all pointing backwards to other things, for examples of what they might do now.

But no one ever said that they weren't going to design a completely new system--something that is barely represented in any single-player games, let alone MMOs.

For all we know, a "party" is just a chat channel with 6 people in it. They don't share "points" at all.

Just wait and see. I'm sure it'll surprise us.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 3:28pm by idiggory
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#15 Jul 05 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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WoW has an open battle system, but the group/person that tags the mob has to do the majority of the damage to receive experience and loot. FFXIV will have to do this as well if they plan to have an open combat system so that power leveling does not get abused.


Also, they said killing mobs wouldn't be the only way to advance your character. That could mean doing quests/missions and crafting could also give exp(placeholder for whatever is used for growth).

Personally, I'm leaning towards a Final Fantasy tactics system. They've hinted at it with weapons being a major part of the growth system, similar to the FFT series where weapons and some armors must be equipped to learn abilities/spells.

Probably, each 'family' of weapons will teach you certain skills as you level as to not alienate/gimp people who do not have certain items.

Example:
Equipping a shield will start you learning shield block then shield bash then shield throw or something. the point is a level one shield and a level 100 shield both teach the same skills. That way as you level using a shield you gain the skills you need.
#16 Jul 05 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
I just had a sudden vision of the FFX sphere grid...

They didn't have levels...

I wonder...

[EDIT]

Also, everyone needs to remember that SE is known for introducing new systems in their games. We are all pointing backwards to other things, for examples of what they might do now.

But no one ever said that they weren't going to design a completely new system--something that is barely represented in any single-player games, let alone MMOs.

For all we know, a "party" is just a chat channel with 6 people in it. They don't share "points" at all.

Just wait and see. I'm sure it'll surprise us.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 3:28pm by idiggory


Isn't FFXI's entire jobsystem ripped off from FF4? They borrow things at times, but it is like you say, they tend to overhaul alot of the growth system and classes from one Final Fantasy to the other.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 4:01pm by muppenz
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