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In the spirit of "guessing"Follow

#1 Jul 04 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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In the spirit of “guessing” what the “growth” system will be like and how battles will go, I thought I'd take a crack at it. Here are my thoughts.

“Rank/Class” system:

Jobs,abilities & weapons would have a class ranking and over time along with use of a certain weapon and possibly quest advancement would grant more abilities or skills to use with that job.

Example:
Starting out a player chooses warrior as his first job, and a great axe as is first weapon of choice.

Warrior: Rank “F”
Starting Abilities: Rank “F”
Great Axe: Rank "F”

Over time the warrior gets stronger through advancement in the game i.e quests,battles,etc. Uses of his starting abilities get stronger with use and unlock either higher tiers of that same ability or another ability. Uses of the Great Axe would grant special skills and specific job abilities only usable while using a Great Axe. It would be cool if there were maybe “AP” (ability points) given as well to allow application to other skills in a matrix or something, like how FF Tactics did it, and players could set certain sub abilities/skills provided they have unlocked them.

So the player now advances and is something like this:

Warrior: Rank “B”
Abilities: Rank “B”
Great Axe: Rank “B”
New GA abilities: Rank “B”

He decides to change from a Great Axe to an Axe cause now he unlocked the ability to dual wield and wants to use two axes,

Warrior: Rank “B”
Abilities: Rank “B”
Axe: Rank “F”

The players effectiveness of damaging an enemy would NOT decrease, instead his damage/accuracy would NOT be based on his weapon, but on the jobs ranking itself. This way a player could still use any weapon he desired and possibly just gain different skills/abilities/spells from that weapon that would be available to that specific job.

I may have left out some details that could explain further, but this was just a thought I had on a growth system.
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#2 Jul 04 2009 at 6:11 AM Rating: Decent
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It's possible, but this just feels like an exp system with fewer levels to me. Like, rank A-F is the same as level 6-1 (backwards because you have A as the highest).

And it is really what FFXI has, except your system doesn't decrease accuracy/power with lower weapon skills and your abilities get stronger with use. Kinda just levels with weapon skills, except that abilities can level, too.

I'm not sure this is it, but it could be. I have my own theory as well, but until I have the will to explain it, I won't be making a thread.

But, either way, nice ideas.
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#3 Jul 04 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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I'm inclined to lean towards thinking it'll be the only non-level system I've seen in an RPG.

When killing a mob you have an x% of getting an increase in a stat by 1 point.

Based on what they've said about FFXI, the x% for different stats is determined by the weapon you are using. For example, using an axe might be a 2% chance for strength, and a 3% chance for HP, and a 1% chance for MP.

Before you say that such a system would possibly gimp people who have bad luck with random number generators, it's very very possible (and extremely common in videogames nowadays), to "load the dice" of a random number generator, skewing the probability of an event occurring with every instance that it does not occur until eventually there is a 100% chance, then reseting the roll chance.

EDIT: It's worthy to note that FF2 (and other non-FF Square games) used this system, though without a loaded dice implimentation.

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 11:02am by Karelyn
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#4 Jul 04 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
Based on what they've said about FFXI, the x% for different stats is determined by the weapon you are using. For example, using an axe might be a 2% chance for strength, and a 3% chance for HP, and a 1% chance for MP.


This coupled with gear that has minimum stat requirements (ie a robe that requires you to have 250 base MP and 15 Mind before it can be equipped) is the only system that really makes sense based on what we have from the interviews so far.

Another question is whether spells will actually be "learned" or merely unlocked like they were in FFXI. For example, if you reach specific stat benchmarks, will your character automatically obtain Cure II, or will you still have to buy/quest the scroll and use it like an item once you have reached a certain point?
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#5 Jul 04 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, I'm not sure I much like this because I liked the opportunity to go back and play at lower levels in new classes. And having played FF2, the shadow of losing some stats when gaining others scares me. And the randomness really worries me.

What I'd like if they go this route instead is basically XP for every stat. So swinging an axe gets me 2 points towards HP and I need some multiple of my current HP in order to increase it. Maybe the increase could be proportional to the weapon's stats, so that more powerful characters need more powerful equipment to progress at reasonable rates.
#6 Jul 04 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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akirussan wrote:
Another question is whether spells will actually be "learned" or merely unlocked like they were in FFXI. For example, if you reach specific stat benchmarks, will your character automatically obtain Cure II, or will you still have to buy/quest the scroll and use it like an item once you have reached a certain point?

Does it make a difference?

Unless I'm misreading what you said, the only difference between automatically learning it and buying/questing for the spell, would be whether it's a cash-dump or not.

Considering that buying WOULD be a cash-dump... I'd be inclined to think that FFXIV would probably go by that system.
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#7 Jul 05 2009 at 2:05 AM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
EDIT: It's worthy to note that FF2 (and other non-FF Square games) used this system, though without a loaded dice implimentation.


It's because of this that I'm inclined to doubt that such a system would show up in FFXIV.

FF2 is the least popular and most reviled game in the numbered series, and a lot of the hate the game draws is based on the character growth system. They've never used such a system again in the numbered series, and I'm sure the last thing SE wants for their new high-profile MMO PR-wise is people bringing up FF2 when they talk about it.
#8 Jul 05 2009 at 2:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, having read a number of the interviews, my guess would be a reinvention of the FFIX system. They keep emphasizing the importance of weapons, so this idea is fairly natural, and has been suggested a number of times. To be honest, though, I more expect to be really surprised. Every time square says they are creating a new system, they tend to create something no one has really seen in an RPG. So, the best guess is most likely far from what we are used to.
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#9 Jul 05 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
EDIT: It's worthy to note that FF2 (and other non-FF Square games) used this system, though without a loaded dice implimentation.

It's because of this that I'm inclined to doubt that such a system would show up in FFXIV.

FF2 is the least popular and most reviled game in the numbered series, and a lot of the hate the game draws is based on the character growth system. They've never used such a system again in the numbered series, and I'm sure the last thing SE wants for their new high-profile MMO PR-wise is people bringing up FF2 when they talk about it.

You seem to mistaking American sentiment towards the game, for being the world's sentiment.

FF2 sold 1.2 Million copies in Japan. For comparison, FF4 sold 1.5 Million. For the time period the game was released in, the sales were incredibly high.

But like I said, it isn't just some old archaic system either. This system has been used (and is still being used) in many other RPGs that Square is producing. If the system was that terrible, Square wouldn't still be developing best selling games in Japan that use the system.
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#10 Jul 05 2009 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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just tossing it out...

Chrono Cross used a stat gain/kill system that worked well. you could only raise your stats up to a certain point with regards to the amount of stars you had, but still, characters that were used more often seemed to have stats that peaked off at a point where as if you were to bring someone new into the party, they would gain stats faster.

personally i'd be interested in seeing how they implement a non leveling system for a mmo. imo part of the experience is getting to the end level, it becomes an annoying grind after the 3-4th job but once your there, there is a sense of accomplishment. I'd be disappointed if its too easy to get to end game and unless they completely ignore character progression or leveling of any sort, grinding level = grinding exp = grinding stats = grinding a weapon wheel.
#11 Jul 05 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
FF2 sold 1.2 Million copies in Japan.

No it didn't. FF2 has sold 1.28 million copies worldwide on all platforms combined, including every port the game has received over the last 20 years.

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For comparison, FF4 sold 1.5 Million.

For comparison, FF4 sold 1.5 million copies worldwide on the SNES/SFC alone, and 3 million total on all platforms.

For further comparison, FF3 sold 1.4 million copies in Japan on the Famicom alone.

The fact remains, FF2 is the worst-selling game in the main franchise, even though it is one of the most widely-ported; it can't even out-sell the very first game (1.99 million copies, all platforms).

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If the system was that terrible, Square wouldn't still be developing best selling games in Japan that use the system.


Last Remnant? Please, being a "best-selling XBox360 game in Japan" is nearly meaningless because Japanese 360 sales are abysmal across the board. #4 360 game of all time in Japan, and it sold fewer copies there than in any other territory. 550 copies worldwide may be objectively respectable sales, but it's a poor turnout by the standards of SE's flagship franchises.

If the system was that great, it would have shown up in the flagship franchise again sometime over the last 20 years. Because that's the way they operate with the FF franchise: try something new every game - if it works, build off of it in the future, but if it doesn't work, take it behind the barn and shoot it.
#12 Jul 05 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Just chiming in-- I don't see any real value in making the stat growths random. I know games have done it, and it's fine, but I think it's always a better system when the growth is fixed.

Personally I like the system in FF2 on principle. It was poorly implemented as you might expect from an NES era game, but you can't make a comparison between FF2 and a modern game with a similar system. You might as well pick a poor selling game that uses menu-based combat and then argue that all menu-based combat games are ill-received.
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#13 Jul 05 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey, they made the director of the worst received expansion of FFXI the director of FFXIV... wouldn't surprise me at this point if they wanted to recreate the FFII system too, only bigger and better ;).
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#14 Jul 05 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Hey, they made the director of the worst received expansion of FFXI the director of FFXIV... wouldn't surprise me at this point if they wanted to recreate the FFII system too, only bigger and better ;).


It was only the worst received expansion because the players couldn't break themselves out of the zerg mentality for everything. There were aspects of it that I didn't really like...like pretty much all of Uleguerand...but that was a relatively trivial complaint compared to the rest of the expansion. The vast majority of people who labeled CoP a bust did so because the Promyvions (and subsequent boss fights) showed them just how clueless they were when it came to actual thought, preparation, and strategy. Easier to blame the developer than themselves, yes? CoP had far and away my favorite storyline of any part of FFXI up to about halfway through ToAU (which was when I stopped playing). I loved the Promyvion zones, the boss fights were spectacular and interesting, and with a good group the entire experience was a great deal of fun.

Every group I entered a Promyvion boss fight with failed hardcore until I decided I had had enough of the "zerg and pray" strategy and started putting together my own groups. I took the most oddball job combinations imaginable through the Promvyions and rather than saying, "I'm not inviting you unless you're <insert flavor of the month job here>," it was, "You're not coming unless you're willing to follow the strategy outlined." That strategy involved a bare minimum of basic medicinal consumables and group anima farming, and a clear strategy for each boss. The "QQ what a waste of time" during the anima farming was very quickly replaced by "holy crap that was awesome!" after the scheduled boss that day went down on the first attempt with everyone in the group well over 80% HP with leftover medicine and MP out the wazoo. I took at least two additional groups through the Promyvions after I had already been to Tavnazia and all of them cruised through the content...with the exception of the people I booted from the party for excessive whining during the prep.
#15 Jul 05 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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That's what they're most likely trying to replicate, but the whole expansion's downfall was focusing almost entirely on missions while leaving the basic game without updates (adjustments still happened though) until the story was done. If you didn't progress with the missions, there was almost nothing to do at all (except the content from earlier expansion obviously; that kept me going). It got better at the end, though.

I wonder if they're trying to integrate the missions and normal gameplay together somehow, from what they've said it sounds quite likely... in that case focusing on missions alone wouldn't be such a bad idea.
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#16 Jul 05 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
That's what they're most likely trying to replicate, but the whole expansion's downfall was focusing almost entirely on missions while leaving the basic game without updates (adjustments still happened though) until the story was done. If you didn't progress with the missions, there was almost nothing to do at all (except the content from earlier expansion obviously; that kept me going). It got better at the end, though.


I agree with you that progression to new areas and a lot of the content was mission-dependent. RotZ added more to the game overall than CoP did, as did ToAU. In my opinion, what CoP lacked in quantity it made up for in quality. The Promyvion zones (again, my opinion) were incredible. They weren't complicated or super detailed or anything like that, but the general atmosphere was amazing. They were simultaneously creepy and serene. That ability to convey a feeling through simplicity is what I look for from SE; simple, refined, subtle, yet absolutely amazing. That's SE through and through when they get it right, and it's a huge part of why I'm excited about FFXIV. They've had 7 years with FFXI to gain some experience as an MMO developer and they've got a long, successful track record with the FF series in general to build on.

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I wonder if they're trying to integrate the missions and normal gameplay together somehow, from what they've said it sounds quite likely... in that case focusing on missions alone wouldn't be such a bad idea.


Ya, that's what it sounds like they're going to try for to me, too.
#17 Jul 05 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmmm,

Well just thinking out loud based off of what (very little) we know

1) "Weapons are very important and have a heavy influence"
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.html

2) "choosing weapons for specific tasks one day versus another could affect how your character develops."
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.html

3) "Jobs will return in Final Fantasy XIV"
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.html

4) "they wish to retain the concept of being able to switch roles and work on one job one time and another job the next time."
http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=18415

5) "growth is not based on experience."
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.html

6) "FFXIV will bring new avenues of facilitating character growth, such as quests"
http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=18628

7) "Have your character develop through the story, not just battles"
http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/823994/square-enix-ps3-mmorpg-untitled/videos/ff14_vdi_060309.html

8) "As we are making the game, we are constantly thinking of 'what can we take from previous final fantasy games?'"
http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/823994/square-enix-ps3-mmorpg-untitled/videos/ff14_vdi_060309.html



The fact growth can be facilitated by means other than monster battles, means interacting with monsters can't be in any way the key to your growth (6,7). We're probably looking at a pseudo-exp-currency. Cosmetically, without the monster-fight association surrounding EXP, they're free to reward you for anything they darned well please. Though I'd like to think there's more of a difference than that.

I think your weapon will determine what class you currently are. Largely because I think your abilities and spells will in some way originate from the weapon your wielding (2). Whether this is in the holistic sense of "Equip Staff: you are now a Black Mage" or in the partial "Equip Staff: you are now learning the spell 'Fire IV' (0/100 Points)" remains to be seen.

If it's the former, it sure would make it easier to switch from one job to the other by simply switching your weapons (4). Although this linear character growth doesn't step far enough away from the typical leveling system for my tastes. Though there's all sorts of interesting ways you could develop a linear character like this through story (7).

If it is the latter, everyone can't have everything - a division of jobs still needs to exist (3,4). This can limited by having prerequisite requirements for accessing spells of a higher tier ala' a grid, spell-tree system, or simply "Equip staff: (requires Fire III) you are now learning the spell Fire IV (0/100 Points)"

You could meet somewhere in between by having weapons that teach you abilities and spells, with the understanding that equipping a type of weapon enhances the spells learned from it. You count as a Black Mage anytime your wielding a staff because your black magic spells have become so efficient. You could also have the act of equipping a weapon correspond to the access of spells key and powerful to the functioning of that job. Anyone can use the MP Up learned from Staves, but only someone with a staff equipped can access FireIV.



Edited, Jul 5th 2009 6:37pm by Zemzelette

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 6:37pm by Zemzelette
#18 Jul 05 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
You could also have the act of equipping a weapon correspond to the access of spells key and powerful to the functioning of that job. Anyone can use the MP Up learned from Staves, but only someone with a staff equipped can access FireIV.


I wonder how this would affect "subjobs" though.

While playing as a Blm in FFXIV it would be nice if you had access to spells/abilities you have already learned while playing other jobs, like Rdm, Whm, etc. But if you make access to spells/abilities dependent on which weapon you have equipped, you narrow the possible "subjob" choices dramatically. Bards, for example, will most likely carry knives/daggers, so under your system equipping a staff would eliminate the possibility of accessing Brd spells/abilities you have already learned.

You could say that it is unlikely you'd really need/want access to those abilities as a Blm anyway, but when you think of the melee classes you can see some of the potential problems with this system. War, Sam, Thf, Drk, etc will most likely have abilities that could benefit other melee jobs, but will probably each use a specific weapon, so under this system picking up an axe as a Warrior would mean you won't be able to access Mnk or Thf abilities since they use daggers and cesti.

I would much prefer a "Blue Mage-like" point system, where you are granted a number of points (depending on the level of your main) that you can "spend" on traits/abilities/spells you acquired while leveling other jobs. Example: a Thf main could spend his ability points on Boost and Subtle Blow from Mnk, and Store TP from Sam. Of course, higher level spells/abilities would require more points.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the subjob system in FFXI, mainly because a player who had invested the time to level his subs would be more effective in a variety of situations than someone who hadn't, but I think SE can do much better in FFXIV. Instead of choosing one main job and one of 19 subjobs, in FFXIV you could choose one main job and five out of ~50 abilities from other jobs.

This kind of system would result in more incentive to level other jobs, more diversity, and more customization than the subjob system from FFXI, or the weapons-based systems we have been discussing on this forum.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 4:27pm by akirussan
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#19 Jul 05 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Leveling skill levels in weapons is still "grinding". SE specifically said they are not going to do that.
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#20 Jul 05 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Be prepared for some kind of grind, they are also trying to make the game last years, not a couple months.
#21 Jul 05 2009 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think SE just meant the camping system isn't something they're interested in anymore. This could mean they're making solo play more mobile, they're making party play into story-line driven instances, they might reward you with progress for exploring or crafting. Nobody really knows, but we'll still have to progress. It just won't be so **** boring.


Indeed, my ideas could very easily suck.
I hope SE's got something more interesting in store for us than anything I could dream up.

Also, I think a BRD type class might actually use a musical instrument this time around, as that Tarutaru in the middle of the logo is holding something vaguely tambourine-like. ...or chakram-like.

I do like the idea of spending points to build my character any way I want. Especially if I can do whatever nonsense I want for soloplay and turn right around and be perfectly conformist for party play. Sadly, though, the reason we're all thinking up weapons-based systems is because SE let it slip in an IGN interview: "choosing weapons for specific tasks one day versus another could affect how your character develops". It doesn't necessarily mean job-related things are being talked about here, but your choice of weapon does have to relate in some way to progress.



Edited, Jul 5th 2009 9:28pm by Zemzelette
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