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Job System in XIV, Just Copying from II?Follow

#1 Jul 04 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was thinking a bit about the various methods of how 'jobs' have worked through the FF series, and how SE is stating that XIV will be more dependant on things like weapons, and will lose leveling pretty much altogether.

Thinking back about how this has worked for previous titles we might be able to see the direction which they are going. I first thought it'd be similar to IX, in the fact that you learn abilities based on the weapons you equip. While in that game the characters were set jobs, and couldn't change them, the abilities they learned were directly related to what they had equipped. For example, Vivi, a black mage, could learn a spell like Blizzard if he equipped the right staff. When he had that staff equipped, he could use the ability, but only when it was on. If he got rid of the staff, the ability would be gone. The good exception was points were added to a pool which would level up the ability until it was finally 'learned', and would stay even if you changed weapons. So perhaps we're going in this direction?

Yet another possible idea comes from FF II and VII, where in this case the characters have no real 'jobs', but instead have differing stats, and their abilities are determined by weapons, equipment, and in the case of VII materia. If XIV is going more along the lines of VII, we can have our equipment which determines our base stats, and then our abilities come from items we equip (which would probably be in the form of crystals, as per the teaser art we've seen). So say you've got a baseline character, say it is a Hume so we have 'normal' stats. You equip a staff on your character, its strength, vitality, dexterity and the like go down, meanwhile intelligence, mind, and MP go up. Now stats are like a black mage, but then you equip something like crystals where you can use and level up magical abilities, until it gets maxed out.

A final theory is based more soley on FF II, wherein abilities and stats are determined by usage of abilities and spells in battle. So far FF II has been the only game to use this system. In this system, depending on your behavior in battle, after the fight is over stats and abilities are boosted according to what you used. While FFXI has used this for combat and magic skills, it was a slow and poor system as it was. What could be a possibility is more of an extention, where you equip a polearm and when you fight you skill up with it (but hopefully at a much more meaningful rate than FFXI). The more you use it, the better you get with it, the more abilities it unlocks for you. Furthermore, if you are hit more in combat, or use more magic, things like max HP increase or max MP, based on your needs. Like if you came out of battle casting a lot of magic, the chance that max MP pool increasing is there.

Those are a few theories on how FFXIV's 'job' system might look to be shaping up, but does anyone else have any ideas on what might come to pass?
#2 Jul 04 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Altreer wrote:
A final theory is based more soley on FF II, wherein abilities and stats are determined by usage of abilities and spells in battle. So far FF II has been the only game to use this system. In this system, depending on your behavior in battle, after the fight is over stats and abilities are boosted according to what you used. While FFXI has used this for combat and magic skills, it was a slow and poor system as it was. What could be a possibility is more of an extention, where you equip a polearm and when you fight you skill up with it (but hopefully at a much more meaningful rate than FFXI). The more you use it, the better you get with it, the more abilities it unlocks for you. Furthermore, if you are hit more in combat, or use more magic, things like max HP increase or max MP, based on your needs. Like if you came out of battle casting a lot of magic, the chance that max MP pool increasing is there.


SE employed a system very much like that in The Last Remnant as well, and I thought it was awesome. Once you understood it, it was intuitive, fun, and rewarding. If you didn't understand it, it could really set you back. That had more to do with other things SE put into the game than the actual development system, but I love the idea of an "on-use" development system in an MMO. I've never been directly opposed to the "equip weapon with <x>, <y>, <z> spells/abilities and then earn points to learn them permanently", but I also see a lot of potential drawbacks to that system (most notably, what happens if you've learned everything you can from your weapon(s) and go for a period of time with nothing else to equip?)

Edited, Jul 4th 2009 6:17pm by AureliusSir
#3 Jul 04 2009 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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An easy way to solve that question is to say that when you change weapon type (I.e. from a staff to a great axe) you'd obviously not have access to any staff-learned skills or spells. That way you can learn a spell from a staff, but aren't able to use it if you aren't equipped with a staff, but not necessarily the staff you can learn it from if it is already 'learned'.
#4 Jul 04 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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A lot of people didn't like the way it worked in FFII. Personally, I've always liked the idea. It may not have been implemented splendidly back in the days of the NES, but I like it on principle.

It's actually one of the basic game mechanics in the MMO I've been designing for fun. There are a number of considerations you have to take into account with a system like this, but they're pretty easy fixes.
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#5 Jul 04 2009 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps it is an opportunity for this system to have a better popularity. What would you prefer, grinding up based on total monsters killed, or grinding based on the behavior you make while killing the monsters? It gives you a bit more say in the rewards after fighting rather than just straight exp.

I've never liked how job abilities are attained in FFXI. You gain abilities based on the level you are, and their strength is wholly dependant on the level gained. Seems like a large waste of space when you level up far enough for the ability to become unneeded. While it isn't as prevelant for normal job abilities, it is very prevelant amongst magical abilities, and avatar Blood Pacts.

A good example is the tiered system for magic in FFXI. While tiers for magic have always existed, there is a method behind those as opposed to FFXI, in my opinion. Take the spell Thunder. You get four tiers of it which you can learn at different levels. By the time you learn the second tier, you won't use the first tier anymore. By the time you learn the third tier, the second is forgotten, and so forth, unless you somehow require it to kill off a monster that is too weak to care about anyway. In the end you have a long menu of unused abilities that clog space.

What would be preferrable is a system where abilities are equipped, and thenceforth are leveled up to more powerful versions of the original based on the usage of the ability. Going back to the example of Thunder, think of yourself as a level one spellcaster. Disregarding the stupid elemental tiers (i.e. thunder is stronger than stone, and mp costs are different) you want to equip thunder because the monsters you are fighting are weak to thunder. Despite your level, you equip a level one thunder spell. The more you use it, the more it levels up, until it is a very powerful version but costs the same amount of mp. Only then would it seem viable to equip a second tier, with more mp but more damage or perhaps AoE, and this too can be leveled up in the same manner. You can also put on and take off these respective abilities for how much you need them, such as if you were fighting rock monsters thunder would be useless and you'd replace it with a wind based spell, which would have been leveled to its own extent depending on how much you have used it previously.

And of course going back to FF II's method, stats along with HP, MP, and all the rest vary according to the needs of the character, and the playstyle. Gear would only marginally add to this, I believe, making it so that no one character is soley 'gear dependant' like so many jobs in FFXI are.
#6 Jul 04 2009 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey, you don't have to sell me on it. I've advocated for the idea for years. Unfortunately I just don't have a lot to say that I haven't already said on the topic several times over.

So I just thought I'd throw my hat in as someone who agrees with pretty much everything you've said.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#7 Jul 06 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest problem with the system from FF2 is that it encourages really nonsensical grinding. For example, let's say you want to be a tank. You gain def and hp from getting hit and taking damage (respectively). So far, this makes sense and sounds like a good system...until the people who do things like demand /nin tanks show up. Then it quickly becomes a requirement that anyone wishing to tank spend at least 47 hours with a level 1 rabbit attempting to hit them to raise their def and dodge and another 40 hours on top of that grinding weak mobs so they can cap their hp. Actually, everyone will be required to do those 40 hours of doing nothing but taking damage to build hp, and this goes double for mage classes more likely to pull hate. HP is to important a stat for combat for people to not demand it be near maxed out. Add on for classes like mages hours upon hours of nothing but casting healing spells in towns as people run by to try and raise that relevant skill.

In short, it is a great idea in principle, but in practice it is hard to imagine a working system that won't be taken over by min-maxers and thus turn the game into an elitist paradise, an attitude that typically chases people away from a game in large numbers. If anyone can figure out a way to create a similar system where DAYS of solid solo grinding are REQUIRED before you can really start playing the, I would be more then happy to cheer the creation of such a system. I just have a lot of trouble picturing it.
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#8 Jul 06 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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CrimsonNeko wrote:
The biggest problem with the system from FF2 is that it encourages really nonsensical grinding. For example, let's say you want to be a tank. You gain def and hp from getting hit and taking damage (respectively). So far, this makes sense and sounds like a good system...until the people who do things like demand /nin tanks show up. Then it quickly becomes a requirement that anyone wishing to tank spend at least 47 hours with a level 1 rabbit attempting to hit them to raise their def and dodge and another 40 hours on top of that grinding weak mobs so they can cap their hp. Actually, everyone will be required to do those 40 hours of doing nothing but taking damage to build hp, and this goes double for mage classes more likely to pull hate. HP is to important a stat for combat for people to not demand it be near maxed out. Add on for classes like mages hours upon hours of nothing but casting healing spells in towns as people run by to try and raise that relevant skill.

In short, it is a great idea in principle, but in practice it is hard to imagine a working system that won't be taken over by min-maxers and thus turn the game into an elitist paradise, an attitude that typically chases people away from a game in large numbers. If anyone can figure out a way to create a similar system where DAYS of solid solo grinding are REQUIRED before you can really start playing the, I would be more then happy to cheer the creation of such a system. I just have a lot of trouble picturing it.


The problem of people prolonging fights with weak mobs solely for skillups is actually easily solved by just setting a cap to how much skill you can earn per mob and having the cap based on the mob's level.

As for the healer thing, if they wanted to they could make it so skillups are only gained during combat. Or they could just make the skill earned based on the HPs healed, so curing random people in a city (most of which would have maxed HP already) wouldn't give much.

I did like II's system a lot and have alluded to wanting to see it in XIV in other threads. It would need some tweaks for sure, but SE has come a long way in the past 20ish years, I have faith they would do a better job of it this time around.
#9 Jul 06 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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There has been many good ideas about the leveling system but if you take SE at it's word they won't use any of them. "Xp" by any other name, whether it be skill points,weaponskills points, or magic points, is still xp. Killing monsters over and over to increase your "level" is grinding and SE specifically said they want to eliminate that. I just hope they know what they are doing.....
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#10 Jul 06 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Similar to some others above, I really liked the idea behind FFII's character advancement system (but hated its implementation), and I'd love to see a balanced version of that be the basis for FFXIV's advancement system. Out of all the FF systems I've played (and I think I've played all of them), that was the most open, flexible, and (potentially) pick-up-and-play friendly of any of them.

Note: I am in no way saying that FFII's system was good "as-is", but neither was FFV's Job system, and SE updated that so it didn't suck.
#11 Jul 06 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
There has been many good ideas about the leveling system but if you take SE at it's word they won't use any of them. "Xp" by any other name, whether it be skill points,weaponskills points, or magic points, is still xp. Killing monsters over and over to increase your "level" is grinding and SE specifically said they want to eliminate that. I just hope they know what they are doing.....


They also said you can grow in many ways "not just" killing mobs, so killing mobs have to give something if it is still one way you can grow. They said it would not be as much as an grind, which still indicates some grind in their somewhere. Of course their will be some sort of grind, there is really no way around it, your character has to progess some way (whether that be quest grind, mob killing grind, mission grind, etc).

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 8:32pm by HocusP
#12 Jul 06 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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If you're hoping for no grind, I think you're going to be unpleasantly surprised. Beyond making 'the best final fantasy [they] can,' the developers are making a game where most of their income is determined by how long you play it. They're going to do something to draw that time out and it's not going to be 500 hours of cutscenes.

I think the comment about keeping FF11 running while FF14 gets underway is one of those things they sort of have to say. As long as 11 is making money, they have reason to continue and they've been prudent in planning content to make that a possibility. But they can't just say 'Yeah we're done with 11.' because that would kill the current revenue stream. 11 may well be around for a while yet, especially if they do something really unfortunate in 14, but I wouldn't expect it to be around 3 years from now.

And we might want not to get to crazy about the no XP or no levels, or whatever the formulation was. They said the same thing twice before. About FF8-which still had levels, but they didn't reaaly matter because monsters levelled to match the party. And FF10, I only checked the sphere grid when I had multiples of 3 sphere levels, and the stat bonuses I got felt like experience levels, at least until the endgame. Anything is possible, I guess (please no chrono cross), but I suspect anyone who tries hard enough will be able to classify the progression system as some kind of levels.
#13 Jul 06 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I've heard the idea of II being used, but the way they put it in the interviews, it sounds more like a Tactics or IX system.
#14 Jul 07 2009 at 1:32 AM Rating: Good
They'd have to change it pretty substantially, there's a reason they never used it again. :P If they want it to be the *best* FF though, I have a guess that they're not going to do something completely revolutionary. I think it might be more a case of borrowing the elements they found the most successful.


And honestly to me that's the job system from FFXI, tactics, V, III, etc etc. So I have a strong hunch the job system will still exist (that and the fact they said it would).

SO how do you combine a job system with changing weapons? It sounds a little like TA. Honestly though, I hope it's not, I didn't like that system much. :P I found it to break the illusion of reality that you had to wield certain weapons not because they were the best, sharpest, most deadly etc weapons but because you were... learning something from them? This brings the silliness that is stat sticks and stat clothing to a whole new level.

No, hopefully its more like you have classes, and the classes themselves vary greatly on how you play them. So you're a warrior. Do you wield two swords? You might get points in agility when you fight. A giant two-handed axe? Maybe strength instead. Sword and shield and take lots of hits? Maybe your defense raises too.
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#15 Jul 07 2009 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
SO how do you combine a job system with changing weapons? It sounds a little like TA. Honestly though, I hope it's not, I didn't like that system much. :P I found it to break the illusion of reality that you had to wield certain weapons not because they were the best, sharpest, most deadly etc weapons but because you were... learning something from them? This brings the silliness that is stat sticks and stat clothing to a whole new level.


Like the last remnant system, maybe. Jobs were just names (with some bonuses though) that gave you a brief idea of what style of combat your character was focusing on, nothing more iirc. I'd like it to be like this honestly ;)
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#16 Jul 07 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
And honestly to me that's the job system from FFXI, tactics, V, III, etc etc. So I have a strong hunch the job system will still exist (that and the fact they said it would).
-
No, hopefully its more like you have classes, and the classes themselves vary greatly on how you play them. So you're a warrior. Do you wield two swords? You might get points in agility when you fight. A giant two-handed axe? Maybe strength instead. Sword and shield and take lots of hits? Maybe your defense raises too.


*nod*
I too hope they won't let us learn abilities or spells from weapons.
It's a fact that there will be a job system again but it will be different from the one used in FFXI.
I'm not too sure if that's good or bad though ^^;
They should keep the system of job changes at least.

To be honest, I wouldn't like the way you gain stats as you describe it.
What if you like using a greataxe and tank with it? Or how about a monk who would rather use a staff instead of fist weapons?

If anything they should let us use different weapons if we want to and not limit our skill with them (not all of them) so we are not forced to use only one weapon class to hit anything harder than easy prey anymore.

Take Thf for example. I like Thf but it would be much more fun if I could use H2H weapons or swords effective too.

I also think they'll limit the weapon classes a job can use as they did in FFXI.


God, if they would just tell us ANYTHING about their plans...
Even villains explain their plans to the hero. SE is evil! -_-
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#17 Jul 07 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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They should keep the system of job changes at least.


The way they've described it in interviews, sounds like to me they are. It was really one of the defining qualities of XI. I do hope they keep it because I love being able to play over different classes.
#18 Jul 07 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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The way they've described it in interviews, sounds like to me they are. It was really one of the defining qualities of XI. I do hope they keep it because I love being able to play over different classes.


Yeah, it's been one of the few resounding successes of FFXI, along with the story and level sync.

Quote:
The biggest problem with the system from FF2 is that it encourages really nonsensical grinding. For example, let's say you want to be a tank. You gain def and hp from getting hit and taking damage (respectively). So far, this makes sense and sounds like a good system...until the people who do things like demand /nin tanks show up. Then it quickly becomes a requirement that anyone wishing to tank spend at least 47 hours with a level 1 rabbit attempting to hit them to raise their def and dodge and another 40 hours on top of that grinding weak mobs so they can cap their hp. Actually, everyone will be required to do those 40 hours of doing nothing but taking damage to build hp, and this goes double for mage classes more likely to pull hate. HP is to important a stat for combat for people to not demand it be near maxed out. Add on for classes like mages hours upon hours of nothing but casting healing spells in towns as people run by to try and raise that relevant skill.

In short, it is a great idea in principle, but in practice it is hard to imagine a working system that won't be taken over by min-maxers and thus turn the game into an elitist paradise, an attitude that typically chases people away from a game in large numbers. If anyone can figure out a way to create a similar system where DAYS of solid solo grinding are REQUIRED before you can really start playing the, I would be more then happy to cheer the creation of such a system. I just have a lot of trouble picturing it.


I'm going to try to address this, but I'm having a hard time envisioning the kind of system you're describing and its problems, so tell me if I don't fully cover something and I'll try to get back to it.

First of all, you won't get decent gains from fighting mobs that are too weak for you. Some, yes, but not a lot. Your example about /nin I'm not quite grasping-- you're talking about subjobs? That'd be gone. You may for example need to skill up your Utsusemi spell. This is just something that you do by using the spell. Yes, it would take a long time for you to catch up with someone who had been using Utsusemi for the last six months. I strongly prefer for this system a game where progress is capped per week or so, but that's another long discussion.

What you said about HP-- HP doesn't have to be "that" kind of stat-- the growth for it can be only very marginally grown by taking damage. "So how will it grow?" I imagine you would ask. There are a number of ways it could work-- to throw one out, it can be based on an equation that factors in your other stats.

Ultimately I think it needs to be a system where you HAVE to make choices. You can't have your cake and your pie. Use an AP system just like people speculate abilities will-- not only can you only choose certain abilities, but you have to make choices about stat growth too. I like systems with allowances because they encourage strategy rather than grinding.

I think that's the fundamental misconception here. Traditionally MMOs suffer from the same problem that single player RPGs do in gameplay-- any problem can be solved by grinding out a few more levels. But RPGs are inherently STRATEGY games. When you take out the strategy by allowing this practice, the game begins to suck. In single player games people will intentionally not over level, and take on fights that are out of their league, but in an MMO there is so much pressure to keep up with the Jones-- don't fall behind, get to cap ASAP. The solution to this is making statistical progress slower and strategic progress faster and more diverse.

But it's going to have to be a VERY different game from the other MMOs on the market, and that's not a bad thing at all.

And speaking on that, I've been thinking up a tactics style MMO for a long time. I don't think that this is what SE is planning for XIV based on what I've seen and heard, but I do think that there will be more tactical elements reminiscent of such a game. I'm starting to think it possible that they will make character positioning an important game mechanic like it is in many single player games. i.e., you can't just move around freely during battle-- there will be limitations on your movement, and you'll be forced to make more tactical decisions based on your position. I think this is very possible and could be a fun game mechanic.
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#19 Jul 07 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
In single player games people will intentionally not over level, and take on fights that are out of their league...


While it's not entirely the same, I think the level-capped content in FFXI (BCNMs, Promys, etc.) allow this type of gameplay (among other positives). Hopefully FFXIV will have a similar mechanic available.

Kachi wrote:
I'm starting to think it possible that they will make character positioning an important game mechanic like it is in many single player games. i.e., you can't just move around freely during battle-- there will be limitations on your movement, and you'll be forced to make more tactical decisions based on your position. I think this is very possible and could be a fun game mechanic.


While I wouldn't support a movement limit (would be sort of strange in realtime), I think positioning, distance, terrain, and whatnot (****, even weather and time-of-day) would be amazingly cool variables to add to combat. FFXI already does more of this stuff than any other MMO I've played, but I'd love to see it expanded even further.
#20 Jul 07 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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While it's not entirely the same, I think the level-capped content in FFXI (BCNMs, Promys, etc.) allow this type of gameplay (among other positives). Hopefully FFXIV will have a similar mechanic available.


Oh, I agree, but I also hope that there's not so much incentive to rush to endgame that people don't do a lot of the lower level content while they're actually lower level. Think of all the quests in FFXI that go from an epic adventure to an epic waste of time when you add 30 levels to a character.

Quote:
While I wouldn't support a movement limit (would be sort of strange in realtime), I think positioning, distance, terrain, and whatnot (****, even weather and time-of-day) would be amazingly cool variables to add to combat. FFXI already does more of this stuff than any other MMO I've played, but I'd love to see it expanded even further.


Yeah, they've gotten better about doing stuff like this in XI, but imo it's not enough. I hope they do a lot more with these elements. Making limiting rules for movement is just another way to add strategy. They've already stated pretty explicitly that it's not going to be an action game, and freedom of movement is more of an action element than a strategic one. Making it a bit more chess-like is fine with me.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Jul 07 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't like any of this.

I want jobs. If any of the people speculating are correct, I probably won't play it.


My favorite part is how people are speculating by suggesting levelign systems that were already in other FF games. SE has never repeated a system, what makes you think they will now?


I also REALLY hope they don't take this "gain stats based on how you fight" mechanic people are describing.

They did it in the Elder Scrolls series and it sucks. You basically sit there for an hour holding block and getting hit so you can level your armor and block skills so that you can upgrade your endurance.

Then you sit there for another hour casting the same spell so you can increase your wisdom and intelligence.

It's one form of grinding for a much less desirable one.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 8:00pm by Louiscool
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#22 Jul 07 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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SE has never repeated a system, what makes you think they will now?


Not entirely true. While SE typically innovates, they have on several occasions rehashed an old system (even just in FF titles, nevermind all their other titles), and rehashing FF2 at this point would be very close to a completely different system.

Personally I am for weekly/monthly progress caps for this reason. There's no point to grinding, because you're going to be able to cap yourself regardless. You'll cap your growth just doing quests and missions that you were going to do anyway. Then you CHOOSE which stats you want to grow based on what you did. If you for some reason did mostly melee attacks one week but you still wanted your magic to grow instead, you could do that as long as you used your magic "enough". And you're always able to reallocate the points (in which case you would have to do a lot of grinding to catch up, but not -that- much, and you would still be able to catch up to the current cap relatively quickly).

This is one way to take playtime out as a primary factor in how good your character is and emphasize skill more heavily. It also reduces some pressure in partying with only the best people/jobs and focus more on partying with people you want to.

Anyway, I've already explained multiple ways in which a system like this doesn't have to involve a lot of grinding (at least no more than any other MMO). Progress caps are just one of my favored.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Jul 08 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:



My favorite part is how people are speculating by suggesting levelign systems that were already in other FF games. SE has never repeated a system, what makes you think they will now?


The Job system didn't originate with FFXI.

The TP system is essentially the Limit Break system, adapted for an MMO format.

The best way to make the game "feel" like the final fantasy universe is to take familiar elements and adapt them.

It's doubtful that S-E is going to lift a system from a previous game and put it directly into FFXIV, but it's far more likely that the system(s) used in FFXIV will resemble one of the SP games than for them to be totally original.
#24 Jul 08 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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So far FF II has been the only game to use this system.

It's not the "only" game to use the system, but one of the first. If you're referring specifically to FF games, then yes, no other FF game has used a system where there's no levels, and your stat growth is dependent and directly tied to your weapons and actions in battle. In fact, briefly describing FFII's system sounds just like a brief description of what they've told us about FFXIV so far.

And actually, early games in the SaGa series, another Square Enix property, also used this system, although the weapons had limited usage (i.e. durability), and only humans and mutants/espers could raise their stats by use of weapons, spell books, etc. No Exp, no levels (At least in the first 2 games). Over here, the SaGa games were called the Final Fantasy Legend series.

Now, here's an interesting fact. Hiromichi Tanaka was one of the lead designers of FF Legend II/SaGa 2. I was shocked to discover this when I replayed FFLII recently, which has always been one of my favorite games of all time. Tanaka also worked on the first three FF games, which of course includes FFII. Recently, he's been supervising the SaGa 2 DS remake, which is expected to preserve many of SaGa 2's gameplay concepts.

So, it shouldn't come as a big surprise if FFXIV follows FFII and SaGa 2's examples as far as character growth is concerned. Tanaka had a hand in both of those games' design, and with XIV, just as with XI, his supervision has significant weight on the direction the development team takes with the game. The SaGa series has been very successful in Japan. In the US, not so much.

It'd make sense if this is the direction Tanaka and his team wants to take with character growth, as it would be an elaboration on a system used in several successful games, and a system that Tanaka has personally worked with in the past. That, and it matches with what Tanaka and others on the dev team for FFXIV have said about how they want to essentially abolish levels and have a more natural, ergonomic character growth system.

Oh, and for those of you mentioning The Last Remnant, that game was produced under the supervision of Akitoshi Kawazu, the head honcho of the SaGa series. You could say he is to SaGa as Hironobu Sakaguchi once was to FF. So, in a way, The Last Remnant is like a spiritual cousin of the SaGa series.
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#25 Jul 08 2009 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
I really do hope that the system is something to that effect, my only concern would be that they made a point that we would be able to "change jobs" still and keep our character. When I first read about XIV i immidately thought IX . . . but I have yet to play II . . . I'm gonna get right on that.
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#26 Jul 08 2009 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, considering the MMO concept I've been designing for the last few years uses similar qualities, I can at the very least safely say that there is A way to create a game with natural character growth and allowing people to change "jobs" with relative freedom. Whether or not SE will use that model, find a different way, or completely fail, who can say.
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#27 Jul 12 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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If the system is going to be like The Last Remnant, I hope SE decides to put in better explanations for each skill/ability. I'm about halfway through the game now, and honestly, the game is a massive skill-fest where you just keep spamming commands and hoping for skillups, not to mention farming ingredients for gear upgrades is a massive time sink.

In fact - that's something WoW does fairly well compared to FFXI - there's very detailed in-game information about what each ability does etc, rather than some random number generator in an obscure formula that is not necessarily intuitive.
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