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Why FFXIV won't be as casual as you thinkFollow

#1 Jul 05 2009 at 5:35 PM Rating: Default
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There is one major issue that many people are bypassing, and that is time sinks wont necessary disappear with the accessibility that SE is talking about, on the contrary I think SE will *add* time sink in order to compensate on the lost time sink by adding things like hearthstone and making travelling trivial.
Let me point out a few examples of what is not considered accessible;

1. Waiting for a long time to form a party
2. Having a character that is not needed in parties
3. Taking too long time to arrive to the destination
4. Getting back to your home point easily

All these and probably some others I have not listed make the game "less accessible" meaning you will end up killing a lot of time by _not_ progressing.
So here is a basic line up on how to solve these issues;

1. You make seek party and LFG similar to other MMO: s that have far more advanced tools then FFXI has. You can implement level sync. You can also make solo playing available. All these will basically eliminate that time sink that many experienced.

2. That can easily be fixed through a better job system, better subjobsystem and better balancing between the classes. I think SE has solved the issue in FF14.

3. This can be fixed very easily, I don’t need to give details.

4. Oo Hearthstone ? Hehe

Anyway, my point is this, if you as a casual player think that you have won, if SE have implement all these features that makes the game more "accessible" then I think you are in for a big surprise. SE is smarter than that. Let me make an example;

You login one day in FF14 and start looking for a group and **** since you character is balanced and the tools that are at your disposal you will immediately find a party. Oh and nice, that party can even summon you so from the time that you logged until the time you start actually killing the mobs and gaining xp, only 5 min have elapsed. You then start to kill the mobs and after 30min you say you have to go because you don’t have any more time to play. No problem amigo, you just pop your hearthstone and then warp to your home point and log of.

This scenario will take a lot longer if it was FFXI, say you need to add 1-3 hours extra just to find the party, travelling or even having the right job for leveling.

So 40 min VS 2-4 hours. As you can see, with the FF14 you have increased the accessibly enormously, but IMO I don’t think SE will let you get away with that so easily. So what can they do to make you _pay_ for this kind of accessibility you might ask? There clear and simple answer is of course, the time that you won from all those have to be inputted into your growth process.

How? You would ask. Simple.

Lets take FFXI for example. In the days when I played FFXI, even though I was a hardcore player back then in 2004 it still took me roughly 3 months to level 1-75. Many casual players back then fought for 6-7 months before reaching level 75. What SE will do is that it will take a lot longer to level up now that the accessibility has been implemented. So, instead of you wasting time on LFG, run through zones, and doing all kind of things that doesn’t actually let your character progress (aka level up) you need to spend that time on content to progress. Sure, now you get to the content instantly but the time it takes to gain the same amount of growth compared to before will be increased to compensate for the loss of time sink that the "accessibility" brought forth.

So, this is exactly as SE said, we will make the game more casual, more accessible. I think this is the way SE has planned for us, so in the end FF14 will actually be a hardcore game more than a casual type of game. Time sinks will still be there. Nothing has really changed in the end.

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 10:21pm by Maldavian
#2 Jul 05 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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So people could spend their in-game time actually playing the game instead standing around waiting for party or slo-mo walking across 15-minute-wide zones? And you think that people would be opposed to this?
#3 Jul 05 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
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I agree what what you're saying. Square Enix is not going to release a game that hardcore players will be capable of completing within a month. What kind of profit would that bring them long term?

As you say, transportation and LFG issues will be resolved, but other things will most certainly take time (which is a good thing!).

Edited, Jul 5th 2009 10:15pm by Eorzea
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#4 Jul 05 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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SEforPrez wrote:
So people could spend their in-game time actually playing the game instead standing around waiting for party or slo-mo walking across 15-minute-wide zones? And you think that people would be opposed to this?


No lol, I'm for this 100%. If they increase the time to get to max level by 1000% I would be really happy ^^. That was my entire point. :D


Edited, Jul 5th 2009 10:19pm by Maldavian
#5 Jul 05 2009 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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I hope it takes just as long, if not longer, to reach the cap level in FF14 as it does in FF11. Why? because end game in all mmo's usually turns into gear grinds and vomit-inducing raiding. God, I hate despise raiding so much. Group based play is fine, but when it turns into a zerg it just turns into a ***********
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#6 Jul 05 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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imperialvulture wrote:
I hope it takes just as long, if not longer, to reach the cap level in FF14 as it does in FF11. Why? because end game in all mmo's usually turns into gear grinds and vomit-inducing raiding. God, I hate despise raiding so much. Group based play is fine, but when it turns into a zerg it just turns into a cluster@#%^


I'm betting all my money that it will defiantly take a long long time to reach the level cap. Also consider this, normally when an MMO is released it usually have very little end game content, so the best way to keep players busy it to have them in a level up time sink.
#7 Jul 05 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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SEforPrez wrote:
So people could spend their in-game time actually playing the game instead standing around waiting for party or slo-mo walking across 15-minute-wide zones? And you think that people would be opposed to this?


This.

Most people will label a game hardcore if too much of your time is required to be spent doing things that you don't enjoy specifically for the sake of getting to things that you do enjoy. If you spin it around and make it so that the game takes just as long to achieve the "good" stuff as it does in a game like FFXI, but you replace all of the "ho-hum" "gawd this is boring" "yup...another 3 hours waiting for a party" "dynamis run #354 GO!" with diverse, entertaining content, people will be happy. Casuals will be happy.

SE could absolutely include grinds on par with relic weapons and bosses in line with AV and Pandemonium Warden in FFXIV. For the sake of the hardcore playerbase, I actually hope that they do. As long as I can still feel entertained and progressing on my character based on my schedule and time restrictions, I have no problem with large time sinks and heavy-duty repetition in FFXIV. I don't want to see the more dedicated players suffer at the expense of the casual/semi-casual folks any more than I want to see the casuals/semi-casuals suffer for the sake of the hardcore.

I believe SE is capable of offering a product where that is the case, especially considering they've already had 5 years to design the content.
#8 Jul 05 2009 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maldavian wrote:
in the end FF14 will actually be a hardcore game more than a casual type of game. Time sinks will still be there. Nothing has really changed in the end.


You keep using one term to refer to two very different things.

Example: Hardcore. This could mean a MMORPG where it takes very long to reach endgame, or it could be a MMORPG where you have to log in for 2-3 hours at minimum to get anything accomplished. I quit FFXI because it was "hardcore" in the second sense of the word, not the first.

Example: Timesinks. You mention standing around looking for party and traveling as examples of timesinks, but then say that SE will "add time sink" by making it take longer for your character to progress to endgame. I would hope that your character's progression would qualify as content, not timesink. If not, you might be playing the wrong game.
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#9 Jul 05 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Default
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akirussan wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
in the end FF14 will actually be a hardcore game more than a casual type of game. Time sinks will still be there. Nothing has really changed in the end.


You keep using one term to refer to two very different things.

Example: Hardcore. This could mean a MMORPG where it takes very long to reach endgame, or it could be a MMORPG where you have to log in for 2-3 hours at minimum to get anything accomplished. I quit FFXI because it was "hardcore" in the second sense of the word, not the first.

Example: Timesinks. You mention standing around looking for party and traveling as examples of timesinks, but then say that SE will "add time sink" by making it take longer for your character to progress to endgame. I would hope that your character's progression would qualify as content, not timesink. If not, you might be playing the wrong game.


Time sinks can be looked at from 2 different perspectives. You have the "time sink" that won’t let you progress your character and then you have the other "time sink" that let you progress your character. What I advocate for is that SE removes the "time sink" that doesn't progress you character and to the same degree increase the "time sink" that lets you progress your character.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 6:19am by Maldavian
#10 Jul 05 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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The game has to have some sort of longterm lore, they are trying to make a game that is there for years, not months. So I do hope the growth process takes a very long time to max, because that is the best part.
#11 Jul 05 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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You say this like that is a bad thing.

The MMO I have enjoyed the most over the years was Ragnarok Online, the single heaviest level grind of any MMO I've played. And yet, it was incredibly fun, in part because there were no nonproductive timesinks.

The issue is not the idea of a timesink. It's timesinks which are PURELY nonproductive, like spending an hour looking for a party. Times where you aren't even playing the game because you are waiting instead.
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#12 Jul 05 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I basically agree with what Maldavian has put forth. And like Karelyn said, I don't mind a time sink as long as it isn't boring or unproductive. Touching on how this ties in with endgame, I think it is very possible for it to be accessible as well. It can do this and still be hardcore, though that would be up to just how well constructed and challenging SE made it.

What I am thinking is challenging events, that can be done in short amounts of time (30 min - 1 hourish). This is not to say that there will not be any long endgame activities, nor is this to say that the shorter events won't take just as many repeatable sessions to get loot. However, with the want to be more "casual friendly" and with media pressure to not make overly time consuming games, SE will be hard pressed to make too many time-sinking end-game or camping events. Me personally? I like some of the newer and shorter endgame content FFXI has, but I also like some longer ones here and there as well.

Let us not forget the other time-sinks: trades, crafts, farming, possibly skill grinding sessions for difficult/uncooperative skills (ex: parry in FFXI). They will probably make some frivolous time sinks aw well: holiday ********* watching chocobo racing, talking to npcs just to see what ridiculous things they have to say, etc.
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#13 Jul 05 2009 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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SEforPrez wrote:
So people could spend their in-game time actually playing the game instead standing around waiting for party or slo-mo walking across 15-minute-wide zones? And you think that people would be opposed to this?


This.

I don't see any problem with it taking a long time to get to max. That practically seems like part of the Final Fantasy attitude to me. Like I've said, though, what they really need to do is make the spaces between levels exciting too. None of this bullcrap where you're waiting for X level to get to the good stuff. Make people appreciate their position; make it fun to not be max level.

This post wasn't that bad, but I just want to say: I die a little inside every time somebody posts and uses the word "casual player" in place of "complete idiot that should be polishing my boots while I play my HARDXCORE MMO that denotes how much of a genius I am". I don't even consider myself "casual", just, it's ridiculous.
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#14 Jul 05 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I think we can all agree that we want a game that isn't boring, doesn't have long LFG times, and doesn't have long unnecessary travel times.

I am totally for this. I think we all are.

The areas where we differ (and at least the posts where we differ) are the details.

Timesinks that can be fun and rewarding are the key.
such as:
Besieged on regular basis in multiple areas perhaps?
Level-sync is just a great idea all around.
Survivable soloability that allows you to develop areas of your character you might not develop in a group.
Campaign-style activities.

Things that in FFXI you could do if you were LFG... but constantly and consistently available from level 1-endgame.
If I had Besieged and campaign available in every area of FFXI from the day I started, I wouldn't have ever felt like I wasted a moment of gameplay LFG.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 12:55am by Shazaamemt
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#15 Jul 05 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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LET SE DO THEIR THING. IF THEY ***** UP, DON'T PLAY.
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#16 Jul 05 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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LET SE DO THEIR THING. IF THEY ***** UP, DON'T PLAY


SE is going to do their thing. If they ***** up we won't play.

Guess that post just made this entire board irrelevant.

No need to post or discuss any more.

/sarcasm should be an emote in FFXIV.
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#17 Jul 05 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian said
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No lol, I'm for this 100%. If they increase the time to get to max level by 1000% I would be really happy ^^. That was my entire point. :D


Just to add to that thought, I floated an idea in another thread that one of the benefits of levelling (by whatever system) in a job would earn you a stat bonus that always applied. For example, monks give decent strength, great vitality, and massive hit points. Then levelling as a monk would give you a 1% bonus (additive) to strength for every 20 monk levels, vitality for every 15 monk levels, and hit points for every 10 monk levels, above and beyond the effects of abilities (HP Up) and merit points.

Those numbers are just for example and could be more or less. If it only worked to apply this when you're current class is at the level cap, or even to only apply the +7/5/3% bonuses of classes also at the level cap, I could live with it (for sake of discussion). I'm somewhat inspired by the system in Disgaea that let's you go back to level one but be stronger on each pass through the levels, which is why I want to apply this bonus to classes in progress. In either case something similar was done with the mime class in FF5 and the silly costumnes in FFX-2 (or at least they seemed a lot more powerful with other classes mastered).

Under this system, you would have endgame content for folks with one or two classes at the cap, all the way up to those crazy folk who have them all mastered.

For more insanity, assume a blue mage point style system for assigning subjob abilities. Now consider being given the option to trade in all levels in a given job in order to reduce the point cost of any ability known at your current level to one point (or for even more grind, reduce by one point, to potentially 0 points).

Even more insanity, use a system I loosely alluded to elsewhere where you learn abilities from weapons (or potentially any gear) and your 'level' is determined by the collection of abilities you have from the same type of weapon as you're currently using and your stats are determined by the collection of abilities you have equipped so that cheaper abilities makes you yet more powerful.

Yeah, I was that guy who never go over seeing Eden do 10,000+ damage to a pack of enemies. I just want to always feel like there's one more thing I can do to be more powerful. And I assume some version of level sync will be available to bring the superheroes of such a system in line with their weakest partymates.
#18 Jul 06 2009 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
You say this like that is a bad thing.

The MMO I have enjoyed the most over the years was Ragnarok Online, the single heaviest level grind of any MMO I've played. And yet, it was incredibly fun, in part because there were no nonproductive timesinks.

The issue is not the idea of a timesink. It's timesinks which are PURELY nonproductive, like spending an hour looking for a party. Times where you aren't even playing the game because you are waiting instead.


No I didn’t say its a bad thing, what I said was that casuals shouldn’t expect the “game” to be more casual (aka removed all the time sinks) just because the game will be more accessible.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 6:23am by Maldavian
#19 Jul 06 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
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i no in my experience RO got pretty borning after lvl 80 but boy once u hit 99 it was crazy. all you did was kill kill kill and getting those last few levels took days of non stop killing. that why bots where made, and private servers with higher exp rates where formed. no one wants to level up, they want to do WoE.


id be more happy if SE makes the grind reasonable (1-2 month at a hardcores pace to "max" out, times like 20 jobs if you can switch them on the fly like in FF11) and add a lot of end game content from the start. it wouldn't be hard really... they already got great endgame material now. imagine campaign battles between beastmen and the other nations where u fight for specific regions. a full scale pvpve battle that takes place once every x days or x weeks.
another great endgame idea would be to expand more on the beseiged concept, making it bigger and have it matter would be nice.
dynamis could be improved.
nyzule isle could be made better.
moving the bulk of the story endgame would also keep people interested.

i guess what im trying to say is that SE already has some great endgame content and thats what people want to do. grinding for months to get to that endgame content no matter how enjoyable it is, gets boring if ur doing it for months at a time.


people don't play WoW for the level grind.
#20 Jul 06 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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i guess what im trying to say is that SE already has some great endgame content and thats what people want to do.


No. That's what people think they want to do, because they don't know any better.

All that endgame content can be changed to low-midgame content, it doesn't have to be at the 'end' of the game. It'd make the grind more enjoyable too.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 1:10pm by Hyanmen
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#21 Jul 06 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Default
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Leyego wrote:
i no in my experience RO got pretty borning after lvl 80 but boy once u hit 99 it was crazy. all you did was kill kill kill and getting those last few levels took days of non stop killing. that why bots where made, and private servers with higher exp rates where formed. no one wants to level up, they want to do WoE.


id be more happy if SE makes the grind reasonable (1-2 month at a hardcores pace to "max" out, times like 20 jobs if you can switch them on the fly like in FF11) and add a lot of end game content from the start. it wouldn't be hard really... they already got great endgame material now. imagine campaign battles between beastmen and the other nations where u fight for specific regions. a full scale pvpve battle that takes place once every x days or x weeks.
another great endgame idea would be to expand more on the beseiged concept, making it bigger and have it matter would be nice.
dynamis could be improved.
nyzule isle could be made better.
moving the bulk of the story endgame would also keep people interested.

i guess what im trying to say is that SE already has some great endgame content and thats what people want to do. grinding for months to get to that endgame content no matter how enjoyable it is, gets boring if ur doing it for months at a time.


people don't play WoW for the level grind.


Since they will remove most of the time sinks that doesn’t progress your character by adding the accessibly I don’t think leveling will be made faster, on the contrary it will be _slower_. Also no MMO comes out with a huge end game in the beginning. They usually save most of the end game for content patch and expansions.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it would take hardcore players that play 8-10 hours/day to reach max level in 3 months and casual 6-8 months.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 1:23pm by Maldavian
#22 Jul 06 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No lol, I'm for this 100%. If they increase the time to get to max level by 1000% I would be really happy ^^. That was my entire point. :D


At first I was wondering what you were getting at, but since your stance is on getting to the max point in the game takes 1000% longer, i'm also all for this idea.


I think it would be way better if it took forever, but also the max level would be different yet on the same aspect of 1-75, the ratio would be larger. For the sake of understanding, Imagine if it took you as long as it would to get from 1-275. With a ton of small incremental increases, over an extended period of time. It would take longer but you find more enjoyment out of it as long as you were progressing 95% of the time. Unless of course you were doing some other activity. Crafting, fishing, other gathering. Exploring I guess.. and helping others.
#23 Jul 06 2009 at 7:17 AM Rating: Default
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this topic sucks.
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#24 Jul 06 2009 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
this topic sucks.


Why ?
#25 Jul 06 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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OP needs to stop using words he doesn't understand, namely the words "time sink." The level grind is NOT a time sink, it was never meant to be. Leveling (FFXI is much better with this than WoW is)is the progression of your character. You learn new spells, get a subjob, get your AF gear, etc. All of these things are character progression, NOT time sinks. They provide time to learn how to play your class in a formalized party setting while making you feel like you are growing as a character.

Taking out the true time sinks (traveling, long hours LFG, class synergy, etc.) is making the game more friendly to casual players: i.e. they would be able to log on for maybe 2 hours and really feel like they accomplished something because less time was spent doing nothing. Adding in time it takes to level (or get points to put on your grid, however that works) isn't another time sink, it is merely compensating for the fact that (hopefully) getting into a party (or solo play) will not take as long to get into.
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#26 Jul 06 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Deathfrance wrote:
OP needs to stop using words he doesn't understand, namely the words "time sink." The level grind is NOT a time sink, it was never meant to be. Leveling (FFXI is much better with this than WoW is)is the progression of your character. You learn new spells, get a subjob, get your AF gear, etc. All of these things are character progression, NOT time sinks. They provide time to learn how to play your class in a formalized party setting while making you feel like you are growing as a character.

Taking out the true time sinks (traveling, long hours LFG, class synergy, etc.) is making the game more friendly to casual players: i.e. they would be able to log on for maybe 2 hours and really feel like they accomplished something because less time was spent doing nothing. Adding in time it takes to level (or get points to put on your grid, however that works) isn't another time sink, it is merely compensating for the fact that (hopefully) getting into a party (or solo play) will not take as long to get into.


I already stated that leveling grind is a _GOOD_ time sink, so cut this BS out please. And read the following posts as well, not just the OP.
#27 Jul 06 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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I read all of your posts, but leveling is not a "good time sink." Time sink, by definition, has a negative connotation and is used to describe some unfavorable aspect of the game that takes too long. Again, don't use words you do not understand.
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#28 Jul 06 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Deathfrance wrote:
I read all of your posts, but leveling is not a "good time sink." Time sink, by definition, has a negative connotation and is used to describe some unfavorable aspect of the game that takes too long. Again, don't use words you do not understand.


English is my third language, sometimes things come out differently since I think in my first language ^^ I apologize for that.
#29 Jul 06 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps the terminology **** can direct us somewhere that official definitions of your lexicon can be found. I have no idea what RMT, raid content, or ninja as a verb mean, nor do I get why 'mob' is used to describe single monsters. But it seemed pretty clear from context that OP (Original Poster?) meant time sink as whatever you spend your time on during the game in order to keep you playing (and paying).

And to the suggestion of more focus on endgame content and getting there faster, I think you missed the point of the thread, or you're just being disagreeable. If there's a good reason to play jobs after your first (which seems likely even if it's not as extreme as my previous comment), then there should be more of a focus on content for the time you spend levelling up before the cap. They can always do more 'endgame' content in the expansions.

I also think the cap should be relaxed with every expansion so there's a reason to go back and play old classes. I was under the impression that was done in FFXI, but most of the talk here seems to indicate it was always 75 or should always be 75.
#30 Jul 06 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I also think the cap should be relaxed with every expansion so there's a reason to go back and play old classes. I was under the impression that was done in FFXI, but most of the talk here seems to indicate it was always 75 or should always be 75.


FFXI's cap started at 50 and was raised in 5 level increments to 75. But NA release came after they added the 75 max. It's been said that raising it beyond 75 wouldn't work out well because of how endgame and equipment has been designed, so the merit system was added in place of raising the cap.
#31 Jul 06 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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To be honest, I still don't really know what RMT means.
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#32 Jul 06 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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RMT = Real Money Trade
Using real money to purchase virtual items.
This can be used in a positive sense to describe items sold by the creators for real money or in the negative sense to describe gold farmers and account sellers.
Both ways are generally looked down upon.
#33 Jul 06 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Oh. Gotcha. Yeah, I really don't think the OP is misusing the worlds 'time sink'. I'd consider leveling a *huge* time sink, in the sense that... well, you sink time into doing it. Driving to work is a time sink, work is a time sink, playing video games is a time sink. It just depends what you want to sink your time into.
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#34 Jul 06 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the explanations, Westyle, it's always nice to learn things. Do you know if it was always the designer's intention to stop the cap at 75 (most FFs had a cap of 99, though 60 or so is what you generally needed to beat them) or did they just paint themselves into a corner?

I've been playing Mabinogi, which is a nice little game that I'm for some reason paying $15 a month for all the bells and whistles (cheap way around the death penalty and better inventory options) and they haven't gotten me on the nickle and diming of their cash store. So I see where even the official RMT is frowned on. I'd love to have the game's owner's permission to sell in game currency for credit towards those monthly payments, though (I play pretty conservatively and always wind up with more money than I can spend). Did SE ever consider facilitating the practice, or do they figure it's just too harmful (I've read some games encourage it)?
#35 Jul 06 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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They said anything above level 75 would basically break the game (mostly because subjobs), so they added merits instead. For example,if you go to 80 level cap then blm/rdm (since rdm would be 40) would have convert, and many other combinations like this would break the game.
#36 Jul 06 2009 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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The data for character levels can go up to 99 so they must have had it planned at one point. Also SE seems very intent on making sure there's as little gil in the game as possible and making you earn everything. Merchant items are expensive and there's a gil tax on the Auction House and if you Bazaar in a big city. They also delete all gil that they learn was earned by farmers.

Inflation was huge at one point a couple of years back in FFXI, popular items were being sold about 10 times their current prices. Farmers were also monopolizing items and becoming a major pain to the normal player.
#37 Jul 06 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm fine with an obscenely high cap. In fact I'm fine with a game where you can never cap your character's growth and new content is released before you're even able to reach the old cap. I'm fine with progress caps per day/week/month where you can only achieve a certain amount of combat-related growth.

Just as long as the gameplay isn't grindy.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Jul 06 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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I think those here who played FFXI and liked it, done so because of the sheer amount of dedication it took to accomplish that highly sought after relic or zone. I hope FFXIV still has that requirement, but yes as the OP put forward quite rightly, the hours standing around waiting until one was able to go after that said relic or zone unlock, to be a thing of the past. It might be hard and I doubt the whole LFG thing will be completely solved, there may still be a waiting game to play - but at the same time if one has something constructive to occupy one-self with during that time, I doublt it will be so tedious.

What I think will have a major benefit is the international servers. Played in WAR recently and I think they made a big mistake using seperate European and US servers. The segragation was noticed during the day on the European servers. Most of the player base would be at work or school while a couple of Warbands were roaming the lands looking for a fight. All we got were empty Forts and Keeps to take and as 5pm rolled around, the boards were full of <insert chosen faction here> complaining that we had ninja'd their zones...

So, having a bunch of different people in a bunch of different time zones operating on their own personal schedule will help. I remember where I could look for people to join an exp party and see about twenty-plus "!" looking back at me. As people hit 75, done endgame and then left that started to fade and the party building got harder. I can't see many people waiting around in the early days of FFXIV - I just hope the game can work the same kind of magic FFXI did and hold peoples interests for a while.
#39 Jul 06 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I get the impression people think it has to be one way or the other. A grind or casual. There's no reason it can't be both.

What I hope to see is the same sort (and amount) of content as FFXI that takes a long time to complete and the addition of lots of smaller events/quests/etc than can be completed in an hour or two that keep you entertained when you don't have time to settle in for a long session and, hopefully, progress you.
Now we don't have PS2 limitations they have scope for a huge amount of content.

I like the fact it takes a long time to level up. If you level too fast people start using 'gimp' equipment, thinking why bother wasting cash on level 20 gear when it will only take a couple of days to get to level 25 and better gear. This just hurts parties and causes resentment.

I was fortunate on my first year in game to have 8 months off work through illness and holidays. I had time to sit and play for a long time and liked the fact it took ages to complete something worthwhile, like getting your airship pass. I found it gave me a great feeling of achievement.
I can understand though how frustrating it must be if you only get to play for an hour or two. You don't get to earn the good stuff as some quests took hours.

I have faith in SE to strike a good balance. They know how to make a good game. There have been some I enjoyed less than others, but none I hated.
#40 Jul 06 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm fine with a game where you can never cap your character's growth and new content is released before you're even able to reach the old cap


There is no way this could be done, you have to account for the hardcore players that will play 24 hours, almost everyday. You would become way too powerful with no cap, and even then people will be waiting for the daily updates.

If they put a max on the growth you can do in a day/week/month, then that is just another word for a cap.


Edited, Jul 6th 2009 8:24pm by HocusP
#41 Jul 07 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There is no way this could be done, you have to account for the hardcore players that will play 24 hours, almost everyday. You would become way too powerful with no cap, and even then people will be waiting for the daily updates.


Not if progress is slow enough or enough content is released. "No way this could be done." That's a pretty lol statement.

Quote:
If they put a max on the growth you can do in a day/week/month, then that is just another word for a cap.


Well duh. The point is that nearly everyone is always hitting the cap. Even new players don't take too long to catch up to the cap. "Level" becomes less important and player skill and strategy become more important.

I know you'll gripe about it and try to explain why you don't think it'll work and nobody will like it, so I'll just spare you the trouble: I don't care what you think anymore. You have invalidated your input as far as I'm concerned.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Jul 07 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,218 posts
Maldavian wrote:

No I didn’t say its a bad thing, what I said was that casuals shouldn’t expect the “game” to be more casual (aka removed all the time sinks) just because the game will be more accessible.


I think a good definition of "casual" is a player who doesn't plan their game time in advance, and doesn't plan any portion of their life around the game.

You could play 30 hours a week and still be "casual" in the sense that you may be playing every moment that you can, but can't really guarantee when that might be, or for how long.

The thing that makes FFXI non-casual is that there is no ability (or very little) to jump in, play for 30 minutes to an hour, and still feel like you accomplished something.

In this sense, Casual and Accessible are virtually the same thing. S-E isn't going to make the path from start to finish any shorter, but if they're smart, they'll make it so that people can do it at their own pace, instead of "dedicate 3-4 hours at a sitting or GTFO"
#43 Jul 07 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Well duh. The point is that nearly everyone is always hitting the cap. Even new players don't take too long to catch up to the cap. "Level" becomes less important and player skill and strategy become more important.

I know you'll gripe about it and try to explain why you don't think it'll work and nobody will like it, so I'll just spare you the trouble: I don't care what you think anymore. You have invalidated your input as far as I'm concerned.


Well duh, then don't say a game has no cap when in fact it is a cap just used in a different way. I just see this way as people getting to the cap and not playing again until the next update. I'd rather have a timesink and actually be on the game then a timesink and not play until a real life date when the next update is being added. This would cater to just the casual player and would totally kill the hardcore players and thats not what they said. As far as I'm concerned you are one person, and I could care less what you think also.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 4:11pm by HocusP
#44 Jul 07 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry OP but i disagree... why would they be claiming to fixing a MAJOR (IMO) problem with xi and then purposefully diminishing their own efforts.

i'm not saying that being a hard core gamer is bad by any means but there is a vast amount of casual players that SE has been unable to tap, and there is no way i think SE is going to purposefully lose out on subscribers to cater to elitist players. In XI it happened because MMO was a new territory to them, they have experience in the MMO making job class now (lol)

i'm pretty sure they are going to do just as what they have been saying
they are going to make content for both kinds of players...
there will be plenty of content for hardcore gamers...
there will be plenty of content for casual gamers...

at least in my mind the only way it would make sense would have to mean the leveling system is much more casual overall. The hardcore gaming content will be mostly in rare and powerful items, maybe even in side storylines and dungeon type areas.

really... xi was the same way... the majority of people who participated in sky/sea/dynamis etc. etc. were more hardcore than players who didn't, players who didn't usually did experience parties, but that was hard being casual as well if you couldn't get a party. they are going to increase rewards for casual content is what i think... to try to even it out a little bit.
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#45 Jul 07 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Well duh, then don't say a game has no cap


I said in that same sentence that there would be an "old cap." The fact that you couldn't piece that together doesn't surprise me in the least, and furthers my suspicion that you're an idiot who can't admit when he's wrong.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#46 Jul 08 2009 at 1:27 AM Rating: Default
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572 posts
Bocomi wrote:
I'm sorry OP but i disagree... why would they be claiming to fixing a MAJOR (IMO) problem with xi and then purposefully diminishing their own efforts.

i'm not saying that being a hard core gamer is bad by any means but there is a vast amount of casual players that SE has been unable to tap, and there is no way i think SE is going to purposefully lose out on subscribers to cater to elitist players. In XI it happened because MMO was a new territory to them, they have experience in the MMO making job class now (lol)

i'm pretty sure they are going to do just as what they have been saying
they are going to make content for both kinds of players...
there will be plenty of content for hardcore gamers...
there will be plenty of content for casual gamers...

at least in my mind the only way it would make sense would have to mean the leveling system is much more casual overall. The hardcore gaming content will be mostly in rare and powerful items, maybe even in side storylines and dungeon type areas.

really... xi was the same way... the majority of people who participated in sky/sea/dynamis etc. etc. were more hardcore than players who didn't, players who didn't usually did experience parties, but that was hard being casual as well if you couldn't get a party. they are going to increase rewards for casual content is what i think... to try to even it out a little bit.


So, what are you saying? You want to reach the level cap within 3 weeks?
The problem here is you are comparing FF to WoW. WoW has extreme fast gear progression, whilst FF does not have that. That is the reason you see 99.99% of the players in WoW walk around in epics, because they will very soon replace it.
It you don’t have the same kind of gear progression in FF then you can't just "casually" hand out gear, since there is very little or almost no gear reset in FF.


Edited, Jul 8th 2009 5:33am by Maldavian
#47 Jul 08 2009 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So, what are you saying? You want to reach the level cap within 3 weeks?
The problem here is you are comparing FF to WoW. WoW has extreme fast gear progression, whilst FF does not have that. That is the reason you see 99.99% of the players in WoW walk around in epics, because they will very soon replace it.
It you don’t have the same kind of gear progression in FF then you can't just "casually" hand out gear, since there is very little or almost no gear reset in FF.


Dude when will you quit with these ridiculous and baseless lies. 99% of the player base in wow aren't walking around in epics.
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#48 Jul 08 2009 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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In any case, FFXIV will change in varying degrees over time. But they better start out very casual friendly to get the potential playerbase subscribing and not have a lasting stigma. FFXI started on the hardcore grindan side and 6 years after the NA release clueless numbnuts still refer to FFXI's exp style as "too hand", "hardcore" etc...
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#49 Jul 08 2009 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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mezlabor wrote:
Quote:
So, what are you saying? You want to reach the level cap within 3 weeks?
The problem here is you are comparing FF to WoW. WoW has extreme fast gear progression, whilst FF does not have that. That is the reason you see 99.99% of the players in WoW walk around in epics, because they will very soon replace it.
It you don’t have the same kind of gear progression in FF then you can't just "casually" hand out gear, since there is very little or almost no gear reset in FF.


Dude when will you quit with these ridiculous and baseless lies. 99% of the player base in wow aren't walking around in epics.


Really then enlighten me on how many are walking around in epics. And how fast you can acquire them.

These kinds of posts really bugs me.
First we had the accessibly post where people wanted to take away all the time sinks that didn't progress your character, and I agreed that will be the case.
Now we slowly start to see posts that will start to say ,, hey,,, can I get my level faster, my gear faster, my missions faster, my xyz faster. The only way you can have this is that you will have to have the same rate of gear progression as in WoW.

Really, stop fu*king compare FF to WoW where you get all you sh*t handed to you on a plate. FF and WoW have 2 very different setup, so you can't get your sh*t as fast as WoW. If you consider working longer time for your gear in FF and call that "hardcore" then really GTFO. Play another game.


Edited, Jul 8th 2009 6:04am by Maldavian
#50 Jul 08 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Really then enlighten me on how many are walking around in epics.

quite a bit.
Quote:
And how fast you can aquire them.

About as fast as one can acquire sky god gear and some abjurations and some dynamis pieces.

It's all the same, really.
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#51 Jul 08 2009 at 2:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Really then enlighten me on how many are walking around in epics. And how fast you can acquire them.

These kinds of posts really bugs me.
First we had the accessibly post where people wanted to take away all the time sinks that didn't progress your character, and I agreed that will be the case.
Now we slowly start to see posts that will start to say ,, hey,,, can I get my level faster, my gear faster, my missions faster, my xyz faster. The only way you can have this is that you will have to have the same rate of gear progression as in WoW.

Really, stop fu*king compare FF to WoW where you get all you sh*t handed to you on a plate. FF and WoW have 2 very different setup, so you can't get your sh*t as fast as WoW. If you consider working longer time for your gear in FF and call that "hardcore" then really GTFO. Play another game.
Your a @#%^ing ****. I didn't compare this game to WoW YOUR the one doing that. I don't want this game to be WoW. Because guess what. I @#%^ing hate WoW. But all you can do is sit here and spit out baseless lies about WoW. I've seen this sh*t come out of your mouth for a month and I'm sick of it. No WoW is not populated mostly by children. It's mostly populated by 20 somethings. It took me 6 months to level to cap in wow not 3 weeks, when I was playing most people DIDN'T have epics. How many I don't know because I'm not going to throw out a bunch of fictious numbers I pull out of my ***.

Your the one who maybe needs to GTFO cause your the one here who doesn't seem to want to accept that the devs have stated its gonna be more casual. And no they didn't say more accesible they said more casual. And you know what I have a job I have a career I can't spend 40 hours a week trying to get items in a @#%^ing video game. I have a wife, a job and a career. I'm not some unemployed punk with nothign better to do then play a video game for 6 weeks straight trying to get a drop.

Get over your elitist @#%^ing attitude. Playing a game doesn't make you cooler or smarter or better then anyone else but you seem to act like your real hot sh*t because you wasted alot more time on a game then some of us did.

So @#%^ing what if people with jobs and lives want to see all the game without making a game a second career.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 6:16am by mezlabor
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