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#1 Jul 06 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Should there be anything like sneak/invis in FF14?
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#2 Jul 06 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Yes.
#3 Jul 06 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would expect to see them, or something similar, at least. They're pretty entrenched into both FF canon and gamer expectations.

What I would like to see is sneak/invis-style effects given to ninja/thief/ranger-type jobs. You know; sneaky guys. I always thought WHM/BLM being the ultimate infiltration job combo was a bit weird.
#4 Jul 06 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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I liked it.

It gave you a way to get passed monsters that you couldn't handle alone without needing to get a group to fight them all and without having to run like mad past them hoping and praying that you'll survive.

But then again, I played as a White Mage...

I would imagine that others found it very annoying.

But I still think it should be there.
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#5 Jul 06 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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They just need to get rid of the random duration for the magic spell versions. Everything else was fine.
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#6 Jul 06 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
They just need to get rid of the random duration for the magic spell versions. Everything else was fine.


Agreed. Or at the very least normalize the durations a bit. If the spell lasted 30 seconds +/- 5 seconds (with the majority falling right at 30s), I'd be happy, too. It's the "The effect of Sneak is about to wear off..." just as you start the induction for Invisible that's a bit hard to swallow.
#7 Jul 06 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Some of the best fun I had in FFXI was roaming around the countryside, caves, dungeons and otherwise scary places with sneak/invis.
#8 Jul 06 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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I was always of the impression that Sneak/Invis (and even Deodorize) existed in FFXI because monsters that were likely to aggro were tuned to be fought in groups once you left the starter zones. Sneak/Invis were pretty much necessary as a component of basic travel for any hostile indoor area or any time you didn't have access to a chocobo in an outdoor area for whatever reason (assuming, of course, that you weren't beyond the level where aggro was an issue for that particular area).

I'm not sure how things are now, but when I played FFXI, even if you had someone in the party who could sneak/invis via spell, the expectation was that you would use your own consumables to get the job done because it was just too much of a pain in the *** for the caster to keep everyone stealthed.

I don't mind the idea of Sneak/Invis in FFXIV. I would, however, be disappointed if they were as necessary in that game as they were/are in FFXI. It was just another barrier in FFXI. Even as an alchemist that could HQ silent oil/prism powder out the wazoo, keeping myself supplied was tedious. And as someone who sold more than my fair share on auction, there wasn't an ounce of altruism in my business practices. I was out to earn as much as I possibly could from the sale of my goods and could, quite frankly, have cared less if that meant pricing out of the reach of lower level players. I had too many of my own expenses to be charitable at the auction house. If sneak/invis are to be necessary items, my hope would be that they would be shifted out of the player economy to an NPC so that the prices will always be stable and they will always be as accessible as SE intends for them to be.
#9 Jul 06 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Invis is pretty much a given in any MMO or else travel will become a pain.
#10 Jul 06 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not sure how things are now, but when I played FFXI, even if you had someone in the party who could sneak/invis via spell, the expectation was that you would use your own consumables to get the job done because it was just too much of a pain in the *** for the caster to keep everyone stealthed.


Eh.
Take it from a WHM from ye old times, they may have been expected to, but there was always that one guy I had to end up babysitting.

Someone whose used to the nice centralized grinding of ToAU might not see what's so scary about that. But back in the day, we had to travel 15 miles uphill in the snow to get to our EXP. I still can't think back to leveling without being reminded of that awful Kuftal Tunnel->Cape Terrigan->Valley of Sorrows pilgrimage.


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#11 Jul 06 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
I still can't think back to leveling without being reminded of that awful Kuftal Tunnel->Cape Terrigan->Valley of Sorrows pilgrimage.


I loved those areas. Especially that first time looking at adamantoise...that was quite a site.
#12 Jul 06 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Sneak Invis were more of a helper imo. You needed them, but you didn't need to carry a gazillion with you everywhere. I personally MGS'd or Flee'd myself everywhere. A stack of silent oils would last me at least a month when I was doing sky constantly. One sneak from a mage and I could get far enough in so that flee would carry me past the rest of the zone.

I'd much rather need to use sneak and invis every now and then when exploring than to be able to just run past everything without worrying about them following me. Even when I flee'd past everythere there was still the fact that if I made one wrong turn I could very well end up dead.
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#13 Jul 06 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I believe they should.
They are very helpful, low-level and high-level players alike.
No matter what, there's always going to be a mob that can kill you, so Sneak/Invis is the perfect remedy; that is, unless they make sneak II and such forth, enabling effects to last longer than usual.
We don't want level 1 RMT's running around undetected by mobs for ever, using our good fishing spots.
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#14 Jul 06 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I personally MGS'd ... everywhere.


Same here. Sneaking to Beadeaux for the DRK flag quest at L7 (or whatever) was a riot. I have all kinds of stories like that.

As long as the aggro mechanics remain complex and involved (I.E. not LotRO's "X distance = You've Got Aggro!, regardless of mob facing, type, intervening terrain, etc." bull****), I wouldn't mind seeing an advanceable skill-based sneaking system (with job-based skill caps). Having a higher Sneak skill would reduce aggro ranges, mob "spot checks", etc. based on the sneaking character's skill level and the level of the mob they're sneaking past. Basically, a mix of the current sight/sound aggro mechanics and a less-powerful version of Oblivion's Sneak skill. I'd let non-Sneak/Invis-capable jobs have an option beyond burning consumables, dragging a friend along, or pulling a Dig-Dash-Dive Triathlon to the zone line.
#15 Jul 06 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm surprised nobody's thought it trivialized areas such as dungeons, where instead of having a party fight their way to objectives, people would simply and safely just skip everything, without any danger at all.

I always assumed SE started putting true sight/sound enemies in the game because they felt players were too safe when doing things, and wanted players to worry more about the possible need to fight, run away, or find a way around the enemy's detection method (such as waiting for a true sight mob to turn around).

I always found things much more engaging and fun when I don't have sneak/invis, and I have to manually sneak (MGS style) or fight/rush my way through someplace.

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 11:13pm by ihatetaru

Edited, Jul 6th 2009 11:13pm by ihatetaru
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#16 Jul 06 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Having played FFXI for 4 years I have to say that Sneak and Invis do not make dungeons easier at all. They're usually too crowded for you to recast and important objectives usually have a true sight enemy right beside them.
#17 Jul 06 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Should there be anything like sneak/invis in FF14?


This question relies too heavily on gameplay mechanics to answer at this time =(
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#18 Jul 06 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This question relies too heavily on gameplay mechanics to answer at this time =(


Good point! I never thought of it that way.
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#19 Jul 06 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
I was always of the impression that Sneak/Invis (and even Deodorize) existed in FFXI because monsters that were likely to aggro were tuned to be fought in groups once you left the starter zones. Sneak/Invis were pretty much necessary as a component of basic travel for any hostile indoor area or any time you didn't have access to a chocobo in an outdoor area for whatever reason (assuming, of course, that you weren't beyond the level where aggro was an issue for that particular area).

I'm not sure how things are now, but when I played FFXI, even if you had someone in the party who could sneak/invis via spell, the expectation was that you would use your own consumables to get the job done because it was just too much of a pain in the *** for the caster to keep everyone stealthed.

I don't mind the idea of Sneak/Invis in FFXIV. I would, however, be disappointed if they were as necessary in that game as they were/are in FFXI. It was just another barrier in FFXI. Even as an alchemist that could HQ silent oil/prism powder out the wazoo, keeping myself supplied was tedious. And as someone who sold more than my fair share on auction, there wasn't an ounce of altruism in my business practices. I was out to earn as much as I possibly could from the sale of my goods and could, quite frankly, have cared less if that meant pricing out of the reach of lower level players. I had too many of my own expenses to be charitable at the auction house. If sneak/invis are to be necessary items, my hope would be that they would be shifted out of the player economy to an NPC so that the prices will always be stable and they will always be as accessible as SE intends for them to be.

This is pretty much exactly what I wanted to say. Sneak/Invis aren't the problem, and they're not a universal solution. They were a solution to FFXI's specific game mechanics, which involved moving through areas filled with monsters that could kill you in 10 seconds as you tried to reach a safe camp.

Since one of the main complaints SE seems to be trying to redress with FFXIV is the difficulty of soloing, it seems very possible that the monsters we EXP off of in this game will be considerably weaker. Wandering through areas as dangerous as the everyday spots of FFXI might be a rare occurrence.

In a game like that, Sneak/Invis might be needed much less often, and as a result they might be removed from the game or made more restricted than they are now.

I for one would love to wave goodbye to the constant chore and expense that was Sneak/Invis in FFXI. But it's an issue that has to be addressed from the ground up, in the basic design of the game.
#20 Jul 06 2009 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
Since one of the main complaints SE seems to be trying to redress with FFXIV is the difficulty of soloing, it seems very possible that the monsters we EXP off of in this game will be considerably weaker. Wandering through areas as dangerous as the everyday spots of FFXI might be a rare occurrence.


It wouldn't surprise me at all to see solo mobs and group mobs mostly segregated the way they are in other MMOs that have solo play as a viable option. Most outdoor mobs in "solo friendly" MMOs are tuned to be fought solo, with the group-tuned mobs found primarily in instanced content. If that's the case, the "necessity" for sneak/invis for general travel in outdoor zones would be limited to travelling through zones well above your level, and whether or not sneak/invis would be used regularly (if at all) in instanced content would depend on how that content was laid out. In WoW, for example, the idea was that you fight your way through and if you could skip a group of mobs without worrying about proximity aggro, that was an option. Stealthing a whole group through was just not something that was ever done (and players outside of a couple of very specific classes were given very few tools to do so anyways). LOTRO, on the other hand, had some relatively speedy respawns on dungeon trash, which quite often meant that if you had a partial wipe, the run was over because the people who lived would be one one side of a pack of nasty respawns and the people running back in would be on the other side.

#21 Jul 07 2009 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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But back in the day, we had to travel 15 miles uphill in the snow to get to our EXP.


Oh! How we used to dream of something as easy as a snow-covered hill, or exp in my day. Back then we had to leap up in the air into outer space to get to our camp, and then we lost exp for killing mobs. When we'd get home to our card board box at the end of the hard day, our moogles would kill us. They would take a sword and cut off our heads. We were poor back then--all 57 of us--but we were happy.
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#22 Jul 08 2009 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly I didn’t like how missions in FFXI became a sneak and invisible fest to get to the one thing you needed to fight. Just seemed silly to me that in many situations the trek to get to a boss fight was rather easy, just a bit time consuming. I think we should get rid of sneak and invisible.
#23 Jul 08 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I didn't read everyone's posts but I just wanted to say that Sneak/Invis is one thing I really miss when I play other mmorpgs. I'm so freaking sick of having to train every mob in a zone just to get through it. I'll take random duration over that any day.
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#24 Jul 09 2009 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally liked being able to use sneak and Invis. It made it quite a lot easier to get to where you wanted to go without having to kill everything. Although I do think that during some quests or missions that it should not be usable. It makes the missions too easy to get through. All you basically had to do was take the time to run through and fight the boss and occasionally fight something off because your party members invis wore off.
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#25 Jul 10 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Hopefully jobs like ninja thief and ranger have stealth ability that slows your movement so you're sneaking as well. As far as sneak and invis. Perhaps they can make latter levels posses a spell that is both combined and lasts for a long duration. (and also modify the lower ones to at least be 30s to a min) just saying.


Also no deodorize please. No reason to have monsters smell us.
#26 Jul 10 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, while I agree Sneak and Invis are good, I'd add something to the system as well.

If you stand perfectly still, you shouldn't make any noise at all, no spell/items needed. This should be as good as sneak if a monster comes wandering by, then you can start moving again when it's out of range. Also, everybody should be able to skulk/tip-toe to avoid detection as well.

If this game is really generous with things like dynamic lighting, I could see crouching in dark corners to make yourself invisible (to non-nocturnal creatures.) On this note, I also like the idea of A) having areas so dark, you need a torch to see your way around and B) Being able to snuff out the flame to make yourself harder to see. Even if someone nearby is holding a torch, the monsters would be able to see you both better.
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#27 Jul 10 2009 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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@Archfiend
Agreed 100%. Throw in some special job abilities that allow your ranger to detect hidden monsters without the use of a torch, and you have a nice new mechanic that adds some extra flavor and thrill. No more careless running through dark caves and long grass - hidden enemies might lie in waiting.
#28 Jul 10 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I too totally agree with archfiend.

I think that sneak and invis SHOULD be incorporated into FFXIV (even in their old FFXI iterations) but I think they should only be incorporated as gameplay elements.

They shouldn't be commonplace travel mechanisms. Maybe you need to use sneak/invis and stealth your way to a certain area once or twice, but after that you should be able to reach that same area with relative ease. Doing it once is a nice original challenge. Doing every time you want to go out and play or fight a certain dungeon is overkill.

Which is why I like using the WoW mechanism of 'Summoning stones' (of course in a FF it would probably be a crystal). If you reach the crystal once, or if you beat the boss of the dungeon that the crystal guards, then you should be able to use it to get back there without having to 'sneak/invis' all the way there.
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#29 Jul 11 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
They just need to get rid of the random duration for the magic spell versions. Everything else was fine.


/equip back "Skulker's Cape"
/equip feet "Dream Boots +1"
/ma Sneak <me>
/wait 12
/ma Invisible <me>

Work's well
#30 Jul 11 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
They just need to get rid of the random duration for the magic spell versions. Everything else was fine.


I dunno, the fact that you had to sneak/invis through the same area over and over and over everytime you wanted to do certain things felt like a time sink. It was repetitive in certain areas and just boring.
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#31 Jul 13 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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zeroskillkyrios wrote:
Also no deodorize please. No reason to have monsters smell us.


See, I think it'd be awesome if critters like dogs had scent-based aggro mechanics. Add wind direction and speed to the weather effects, and anything in a cone downwind from you (size and shape determined by weather conditions) can smell you. Tremor aggro (footsteps, mostly) would be cool for stuff like worms, too.

I'm all for making the mechanics for stuff like this more involved than they are in FFXI. One of the things that really disappointed me about LotRO was the incredibly simple aggro mechanics: X distance = aggro, regardless of facing, position, terrain, whatever. It was predictable, boring, and no fun. Aggro mechanics don't have to be simple to be "casual friendly", and complex and involved is not automatically "hardcore".
#32 Jul 13 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Get rid of sneak/invis if you must, but for goodness sake let me be able to hide behind a rock without being spotted.
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#33 Jul 14 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
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iMOB wrote:
Get rid of sneak/invis if you must, but for goodness sake let me be able to hide behind a rock without being spotted.
That and not being detected by sound if you stand still. If you aren't making noise, you aren't doing a thing to be detected in the first place. This is where smell can play much more of a factor, not to mention a certain spell...
#34 Jul 15 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Voldermolt wrote:
That and not being detected by sound if you stand still. If you aren't making noise, you aren't doing a thing to be detected in the first place. This is where smell can play much more of a factor, not to mention a certain spell...


In my first party in Qufim we were approached by a Banshee. I was convinced that if I stood perfectly still it couldn't sound aggro me. Turns out I was juts lucky and it aggroed the rest of my party first. :D

But yes, I think more in depth aggro mechanics would be really cool. In fact, I'd be surprised if they don't expand mob behavior at all.
#35 Jul 15 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir wrote:
Borkachev wrote:
Since one of the main complaints SE seems to be trying to redress with FFXIV is the difficulty of soloing, it seems very possible that the monsters we EXP off of in this game will be considerably weaker. Wandering through areas as dangerous as the everyday spots of FFXI might be a rare occurrence.


It wouldn't surprise me at all to see solo mobs and group mobs mostly segregated the way they are in other MMOs that have solo play as a viable option. Most outdoor mobs in "solo friendly" MMOs are tuned to be fought solo, with the group-tuned mobs found primarily in instanced content. If that's the case, the "necessity" for sneak/invis for general travel in outdoor zones would be limited to travelling through zones well above your level, and whether or not sneak/invis would be used regularly (if at all) in instanced content would depend on how that content was laid out. In WoW, for example, the idea was that you fight your way through and if you could skip a group of mobs without worrying about proximity aggro, that was an option. Stealthing a whole group through was just not something that was ever done (and players outside of a couple of very specific classes were given very few tools to do so anyways). LOTRO, on the other hand, had some relatively speedy respawns on dungeon trash, which quite often meant that if you had a partial wipe, the run was over because the people who lived would be one one side of a pack of nasty respawns and the people running back in would be on the other side.



Wonderful post; and I agree with you. Personally, i hope they get rid of sneak and deodorize and stick with just invisibility.

I'd like to see the spell more restricted and temporary rather than a spell used for travel. We should be fighting through zones not skipping them entirely and being restricted to a small section of it because it is safe from the mobs that can kill us in a few seconds.
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