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Stop Hating on WoWFollow

#1 Jul 07 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Default
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Warning: Long

WoW is a very interesting entity. I feel like Blizzard knows WoW is entering its final stages, and is just seeing what kind of things work in an established community while they still have it. One thing that really killed the game is letting players code for it. Deadly Boss Mods has single-handedly shaped the way end-game content is created; instead of creating bosses which are legitimately difficult or awe-inspiring, WoW has bosses that now require DBM to attempt. The bosses no longer have incredibly powerful abilities, they have weird aggro patterns and require a raid to focus on manipulating hate, or else the boss just wipes you out. Also, the bosses can only last so long, or else they ‘enrage’ and wipe you out. It doesn’t leave much room for innovation or adaptability – you figure out the fight and then you read your queues.

Lessons learned:

1) Don’t let players shape content
2) Bosses can’t be structured around invisible metrics (such as hate). They need to be structured around normal fantasy-based behaviors. E.g. you want to dodge a dragons breath, not make sure you’re not at the top of it’s hate chart.

Over the course of its life, Blizzard has shifted its group paradigm several times. The 40-man content of yore has been replaced by 5 man heroics, 10 man dungeons and 25 man raids, each giving better gear than the last. But Blizzard designed it so that the content scales up with the amount of people, which is stupid. The 5 man heroics are used as a stepping stone to “harder” content. What SHOULD’VE been done is keep these things in parallel; make difficult 5 man dungeons where the gear and drops are still excellent, but make them hard enough so that you need to take 5 players who REALLY know what they’re doing. 5 (and 10 man to an extent) content in WoW is a joke – something to do when you can’t get 25 people together to tackle something big, or something to farm badges for.

Lessons learned:

1) Content shouldn’t scale in difficulty by number of people, it should scale by ‘skill required’. Make easy, medium, and hard areas for every group size.
2) Shifting paradigms may breathe life into a game for a time, but its ultimately not worth it. Ask any ‘old school’ WoW player, and they’ll admit that nothing in today’s content is anywhere near as cool as downing Ragnaros for the first time, no raid mods necessary, unless you were the leader or a healer.

The other big mistake I’m sure Blizzard realized is the homogenization of the 9 classes in the game. 9 isn’t a lot. So when you blur the lines between them, you’re not doing your game any favors. Homogenization is one of the few irreversible processes a game can go through. Once you give a healer or tank the option to do damage, you can’t take it away. Once you give a damage dealer some defensive abilities, you can’t take them away. You’ve @#%^ed yourself, royally.

Lessons learned:

1) Don’t listen to your player base. A lot of times, the players don’t really know what they want. E.g. “BUT I WANT TO HEAL!” “…well, then why’d you roll a Death Knight?”
2) The purpose of dividing players into classes in the first place is so that players can fill a specific need. Half of the classes in WoW suffer from serious identity crisis on a daily basis; “what spec are you?” determines whether you get into a raid, but “what class are you?” determines whether or not you get items from it. So, you’re forced to conform to what your class is designed to do, regardless of your other options… except now there’s 2-3 other classes that can do it just as well as you due to homogenization.

But all these “PLZ DON’T TALK ABOUT WOW” and “I DON’T LIKE WOW” posts are retarded. WOW is literally schooling other developers in how to properly create a persistent online world. It’s a test bench. WoW has taught developers how to properly structure a thriving economy. WoW made all the mistakes other developers now won’t have to. Do we link auction houses or not? Do we allow players to link items in chat or not? How should trade work? How should players earn money? How strong should crafted items be compared to raided ones? How do we distribute loot tables among lowbie zones versus high-end zones? These are all standards new games are going to go by. Why? Because WoW, after 7 years, has provided tons of valuable, visible data on a MASSIVE scale. Will these things be tuned to newer games? Sure, but the underlying fundamentals are still there, and they came from WoW.

Now, before you rip me a new hole by saying “we all know Blizzard took the AH from FFXI,” I already know that. In fact, when I was beta testing WoW, I was one of the players who made the big push for the auction house system. FFXI’s AH system was, and as far as I know still IS absolute trash. The *only* good thing about it as far as I’m concerned is a price history, which is modifiable in WoW. Also, the economic player-created mods in WoW are beyond superb, and should be taken note of in every game.

On the forefront of PvP, no game has more options than WoW. And while many of these options suck, no one can deny that they are valid attempts at creating goal-oriented PvP. And while balancing classes for both PvP and PvE is a nightmare – as discussed above – no one can deny that it needed to be tried relentlessly to be proven.

Sure, it’s graphics are cartoony, but they’re timeless. Some of the scenery is flat-out beautiful while others suck. WoW was geared for the long-haul and knew updating the graphics wasn’t a serious option. So they chose style over substance. Not a bad move.

My overall point is this; why the @#%^ are you hating on WoW? The things it does so wrong are very important to its contribution to the gaming world. You can’t say you don’t like a game just because it’s become a major reference to its industry, especially when other developers (SQUARE ENIX) are OPENLY using it for reference. Yeah, I get it. I like Final Fantasy just as much as the next guy. I grew up on FF6-10, just like the next guy. I played FFXI, just like the next guy and I know a bunch of people who left it for WoW, just like the next guy. Stop being so bitter and arrogant about a game that’s doing well just because it’s not one you play.

</rant>

So how about we use this forum for it's purpose -- wild speculation on bits of information about FFXIV as we get it, and use WoW as a reference where appropriate.


Edited, Jul 7th 2009 10:58am by Kharmageddon
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#2 Jul 07 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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WOW caters to a different mindset than other MMO games do. Most games are niche specific.
Every MMO before WOW was innovative and attracted it's own unique community for reasons very specific to each game.

Blizzard just took all the good aspects from all the past MMOs, digested them, then vomited them back out into one MMO.
It is a good game, but there are too many things that draw in too many players that I just can't stand.

I don't hate WOW because it's not the game I play, I hate WOW for what it did to the MMO genre. I hate WOW because it killed the MMO industry.

No other game will have much of a chance of success from this point forward unless it mirrors WOW and does it better.

There are no longer any niche market MMOs being produced that have much of a chance of success, just WOW and WOW clones.


Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:06am by picanteV
#3 Jul 07 2009 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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A game can 'do it better' without being a WoW clone. WoW is very successful because of what it brought to the table. But it's by no means perfect, or set in a perfect world, or anything. There's no reason FFXIV can't be seriously competitive while being vastly different. Using WoW for reference isn't the same as cloning it.
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#4 Jul 07 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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I hate what WoW has done to the MMO business, but it's not really Blizzard's nor their game's fault, so I don't hate WoW itself, no.

What I hate is when other companies make an MMO, they look at what WoW has done and copy it. That's not bad in general, except that WoW is usually the only MMO they look at. Why is there no job switch in MMO's yet? Why is SW:TOR's storyline aspect 'new and innovative'? Because WoW doesn't have them.. /sigh.

Also I don't think FFXI's AH is bad at all, but that's not the subject here I guess..
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#5 Jul 07 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A game can 'do it better' without being a WoW clone. WoW is very successful because of what it brought to the table. But it's by no means perfect, or set in a perfect world, or anything. There's no reason FFXIV can't be seriously competitive while being vastly different. Using WoW for reference isn't the same as cloning it.


You cannot do "it" better without doing "it" in the first place.
i.e. clone the game and improve it.

WOW covers ALL the bases that an MMO can cover.

It has casual play, hardcore play, economy play, PVP play, storyline, etc.

Most MMOs have all or most of the above with heavy emphasis on one or two aspects.

WOW has heavy emphasis on everything and is able to maintain heavy emphasis because of a limitless advertising budget that affords them limitless development funds because of such a large income due to a massive player base.

A small or new software company that wants to create a new or innovative MMO will have nowhere near the amount of time and/or money it would take to create a game that will effectively draw in enough customers to support the company through the rough stages of early life that most MMOs die in. (ugh long sentence)

The problem is that because of WOW's success, the only realistic competitors are going to be software/game giants, like Square Enix.
Even then, at best, SE will have the ability to make a successful game because of a pre-existing player base (FFXI fans) and other products bringing in income to support them through the rough stages of the first year while all the bugs and game mechanics are smoothed out.

Because of WOW's success, all other MMO forums in development are constantly arguing about how it compares to WOW. All the fans of a new game are arguing against the WOW fans about giving it a chance and "stop comparing it to WOW"... And all the WOW fans who might try the new game generally quit immediately if it does not satisfy them the way WOW does.

With MMO launches being an extremely ugly process for nearly every MMO game in existence, it's easy to see why WOW fans would immediately jump back to WOW.

If an MMO survives it's 1st year after launch, it might have some success. But again, this is hard to do without a capital generating player base... which is hard to maintain with a giant game like WOW looming one URL click away.


#6 Jul 07 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with everything you said, except for "WoW is in the last legs of it's life"

It's got at least 4-6 more expansions in it. And unlike most MMOs, this one will likely end with a resolute plot finish, as the Warcraft universe is finite and based on an established universe.

HOWEVER, they do realize that the game will not last as long as they thought it would, and are now trying to put out an expansion every year, instead of every two years like Blizzar'ds original plan.

Quote:
1) Content shouldn’t scale in difficulty by number of people, it should scale by ‘skill required’. Make easy, medium, and hard areas for every group size.

They are actually doing this to some extent in the next patch.

The next raid instance being released has "4" difficulty levels.

Easy 10 man
Easy 25 man
Hard 10 man
Hard 25 man

And it appears that equivalent difficulties will drope equivalent gear, regardless of the number of players. Who knows if Blizzard will continue with this strategy? But if they do, it's definitely a good move.

Quote:
Once you give a healer or tank the option to do damage, you can’t take it away

Don't take my damage away bro D:

I like not being a walking talking gimp machine for the first time in my history of tanking in MMOs.

Quote:
Don’t listen to your player base

This is an interesting lesson... because we haven't exactly seen the results of it yet.

Around 9 months ago, Blizzard made a decision to radicially change their strategy. They would listen and impliment every single reasonable player suggestion... And they pretty much have been doing it.

Some have been awesome. Some have been lackluster. But this level of fanbase pandering has NEVER been attempted in an MMO before, nothing even close to this scale. And we haven't had the time to see the results yet. Myself? I'm on the fence on the subject. There have been some of the best changes in the history of WoW introduced because of this new policy. And some incredibly crappy stuff.

Pretty much every patch since WotLK came out, has had at multiple "Holy crap, are they really doing this? People have been wanting this for years!" in the patch notes.

I'm inclined to watch and allow Blizzard to continue their experimentation.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 12:02pm by Karelyn
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#7 Jul 07 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You cannot do "it" better without doing "it" in the first place.
i.e. clone the game and improve it.


You're being too vague. You're right, you can't improve on a video game without making another video game. You can't make a better car without it still being a car... but what you're saying has absolutely no merit to it. World of Warcraft has proven/disproven a lot of CONCEPTS that can be broadly applied to future persistent games. Cloning CONCEPTS isn't a problem, or else none of these games would exist in the first place and we'd still all be playing Dungeons and Dragons.
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#8 Jul 07 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is an interesting lesson... because we haven't exactly seen the results of it yet.

Around 9 months ago, Blizzard made a decision to radicially change their strategy. They would listen and impliment every single reasonable player suggestion... And they pretty much have been doing it.

Some have been awesome. Some have been lackluster. But this level of fanbase pandering has NEVER been attempted in an MMO before, nothing even close to this scale. And we haven't had the time to see the results yet. Myself? I'm on the fence on the subject. There have been some of the best changes in the history of WoW introduced because of this new policy. And some incredibly crappy stuff.

Pretty much every patch since WotLK came out, has had at multiple "Holy crap, are they really doing this? People have been wanting this for years!" in the patch notes.

I'm inclined to watch and allow Blizzard to continue their experimentation.


I think this is pretty horrible imo. Game developers should have their own ideas and make things that players want, not what they think they want. If they just copied ideas off their playerbase, I'd lose all the respect I had for them, be it for the good or not (and if it's for good, then they are some horrible devs).

And no, this doesn't mean devs shouldn't take feedback from the players. But the ball should still be on the devs hands, not the players'.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#9 Jul 07 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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ah, maybe I'm wording my point incorrectly.

What I mean is, WOW's development team is so large and well funded that a new software company endeavoring to make an innovative MMO doesn't really have a lot of options.

They either clone aspects of WOW's gameplay and make it much more enthralling or they fail.
There isn't much room for new game features for ANY MMO to tackle now that WOW has successfully tackled them all in such a stunning fashion with one package.

#10 Jul 07 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I think this is pretty horrible imo. Game developers should have their own ideas and make things that players want, not what they think they want. If they just copied ideas off their playerbase, I'd lose all the respect I had for them, be it for the good or not (and if it's for good, then they are some horrible devs).

And no, this doesn't mean devs shouldn't take feedback from the players. But the ball should still be on the devs hands, not the players'.

I'm not entirely inclined to agree.

Don't forget that (at least in the case of Blizzard), all of their developers are gamer. They still are judging the weight of people's suggestions, some of which are being thrown out, but a lot of which are being implimented, to good effect.

It's like, for some reason, developers seem to think that using an idea which has already been suggested by the players is taboo. Blizzard is taking a moment to step back and say "Why is that?" and they apparently decided they are going to try the opposite approach.

It certainly seems to be making people happy. They are even doing it with class development.

Warriors: Our hate output is low. We'd like this fixed by allowing us to gain Rage when we dodge attacks, so our hate output improves the better gear we get, as opposed to gets worse.
Blizzard: *a few months later* You know what? Your hate output is low. We like that idea, it'll make you guys happy. CANDY FOR EVERYONE!

That's what it's like. Candy for everyone. Giving people what they want, and complaining is surprisingly at an all time low. And so far, it seems to be working well in most of the cases they use it.

EDIT: It's sorta like. You are a developer. You know there is a problem with something. Players also know there is a problem with something. They players have gotten behind a single idea that they think will fix the problem. After a little bit of testing, you see that idea would fix the problem. Why go out of your way to create an entirely different idea, just for the point of it "Not being something the player's suggested"? Especially when people will probably be happier if they get what they want (as long as it isn't imbalancing).

EDIT EDIT: We shall see though, if Blizzard starts devolving into slush, and stops coming up with good ideas on their own. Then again, Blizzard has never came up with good ideas to begin with, the entire MMO is based upon stealing things from other games. But, I suppose as long as they wisely pick and chose what ideas to steal fromt he player base, it's probably a good thing.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 12:51pm by Karelyn
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#11 Jul 07 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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picanteV wrote:
ah, maybe I'm wording my point incorrectly.

What I mean is, WOW's development team is so large and well funded that a new software company endeavoring to make an innovative MMO doesn't really have a lot of options.

They either clone aspects of WOW's gameplay and make it much more enthralling or they fail.
There isn't much room for new game features for ANY MMO to tackle now that WOW has successfully tackled them all in such a stunning fashion with one package.



I would say exactly the opposite. Because WoW is so large, well funded and well established, it's utter stupidity to try and clone it and improve upon it. Not only is it incredibly expensive to duplicate all of the features that WoW has had years to implement, but any incremental improvements you make to the formula can probably be copied and implemented in WoW before your game ever even hits the market. You'll never "out-WoW" Blizzard. IN the end, people will try your game, say "this is a lot like WoW, but not as good" and go back to playing WoW.

What you can do instead is either find a niche to serve, and serve it extremely well, or you can just design your game with systems that don't try to mimic WoW at all. Since good design results in form that follows function, one thing should inevitably lead to the other anyway.

It's important for MMO makers to learn the very big picture lessons from WoW, and not to dwell too much on trying to duplicate the mechanics of the game to any great degree. Don't try to copy WoW's talent trees. Understand WHY that was a popular mechanic (because it allows meaningful customization of characters) and look for fresher ways to provide that reward without looking or feeling like WoW. In S-E's case, they designed a system that did much of the same thing with the job/subjob system.

I won't talk about any more specific examples because I don't want to invite an argument about the details. The larger point is: Don't try to beat WoW at being WoW. People that want a game like WoW already have WoW. They're not going to leave a game where they're already established and have friends, just to play another version of the same thing.
#12 Jul 07 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm not entirely inclined to agree.


I only think that it takes away from the innovation, if players are given what they want. Usually it means bigger and better of the same..

Plus, from what I've seen, players themselves are quite biased at times. It can be dangerous to implement class fixes as suggested, so imo they should still think it a little bit even then.

I just feel that in that kind of system, developers would cease to be 'developers', and instead become some kind of servants for the players..

But yeah, I'm sure that the players like it. Not a bad way to do business at all, I guess.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#13 Jul 07 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I would say exactly the opposite. Because WoW is so large, well funded and well established, it's utter stupidity to try and clone it and improve upon it. Not only is it incredibly expensive to duplicate all of the features that WoW has had years to implement, but any incremental improvements you make to the formula can probably be copied and implemented in WoW before your game ever even hits the market. You'll never "out-WoW" Blizzard. IN the end, people will try your game, say "this is a lot like WoW, but not as good" and go back to playing WoW.

What you can do instead is either find a niche to serve, and serve it extremely well, or you can just design your game with systems that don't try to mimic WoW at all. Since good design results in form that follows function, one thing should inevitably lead to the other anyway.

It's important for MMO makers to learn the very big picture lessons from WoW, and not to dwell too much on trying to duplicate the mechanics of the game to any great degree. Don't try to copy WoW's talent trees. Understand WHY that was a popular mechanic (because it allows meaningful customization of characters) and look for fresher ways to provide that reward without looking or feeling like WoW. In S-E's case, they designed a system that did much of the same thing with the job/subjob system.

I won't talk about any more specific examples because I don't want to invite an argument about the details. The larger point is: Don't try to beat WoW at being WoW. People that want a game like WoW already have WoW. They're not going to leave a game where they're already established and have friends, just to play another version of the same thing.


I agree with you 100%, you just took my words out of context from the rest of the posts I made.
I mentioned before that past MMOs that have succeeded succeeded because they served a niche market.

Blizzard asked themselves "why did that gameplay feature succeed?" and made a WOW version of it. Also, Blizzard had the foresight to do this with just about every popular MMO niche gameplay feature.
Hence the problem facing new MMO developers.

New MMO developers can certainly develop a new niche gameplay feature, but I can't imagine what that new gameplay feature would be.

WOW covers so many features and does so, so well that a new MMO with new ideas would be hard pressed to make something as attractive as WOW.

Unless a software company has A) an existing fan base, or B) a new idea that is stellar enough to launch them to stardom (i.e. wins the MMO lottery) it will be hard pressed to compete with a giant game like WOW.
#14 Jul 07 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
WoW is a very interesting entity.


No, it's not.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 1:21pm by Jobangles
#15 Jul 07 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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All of the points made by the OP are opinion. Please don't sell your opinion as fact. Also, don't mislead the readers into thinking your sympathetic towards WoW by using a title that is almost opposite of your goal for the post.
#16 Jul 07 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
All of the points made by the OP are opinion. Please don't sell your opinion as fact. Also, don't mislead the readers into thinking your sympathetic towards WoW by using a title that is almost opposite of your goal for the post.


...sell my opinion as fact? I'm posting on a forum on the internet based entirely on speculation. No one here talks FACTS without either citing their source or having the fact be completely common knowledge. Every poster here voices their opinion, and just because I didn't write 'imo' 100,000 times doesn't mean I'm trying to convince people that what I say is THE ANSWER.

And the title is 'Stop Hating on WoW', followed by a post which lists what WoW has done in terms of game development and the ways its tried to test the waters. What part of that is opposite to 'Stop Hating on WoW'?
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#17 Jul 07 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Because WoW is so large, well funded and well established, it's utter stupidity to try and clone it and improve upon it.

Nail
Head

Another thing I think you need to remember is to put into perspective the sales numbers.

STOP TRYING TO HIT 10 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS. ****, stop trying to even hit 1 million subscribers.

****, at the height of Everquest, they never broke 500,000 subscribers (And I think Everquest had the most subscribers of any MMO excluding WoW). No MMO prior to WoW hit those sorta numbers. Stop setting yourself up for failure by expecting unrealistic goals.

The MMO genre is in a fairly simple ploace right now.

1. Some developers make WoW clones. They bomb horribly.
2. Some developers make MMOs as if WoW never came along. They continue to make similar subscription numbers as MMOs prior to WoW (and yet everyone calls them failures WTF?)
3. And then there's WoW.

Pretty much every MMO can be fit neatly into those three categories. Original and unique MMOs (assuming they aren't crap), continue to be profitable, in pretty much the same numbers as they did prior to the existance of WoW.

You just gotta stop letting WoW bug ya. It's not a big deal that your game of preference doesn't hit the 10 million mark like WoW. No other MMO has maintained more than 500,000 steady accounts as far as I know. So stop letting it bug ya seriously :P
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#18 Jul 07 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No MMO prior to WoW hit those sorta numbers.


FFXI had about 700-800k at it's prime iirc :P.

And Lineage 2 like 2 million.. most of 'em were korean though I think

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 6:40pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#19 Jul 07 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
No MMO prior to WoW hit those sorta numbers.

FFXI had about 700-800k at it's prime iirc :P.

And Lineage 2 like 2 million.. most of 'em were korean though I think

Well I did say "IIRC"

But thank you for correcting me. I didn't realize FFXI ever broke 400k.

Kinda weird to think of FFXI as the 3rd most successful MMO of all time (if these numbers are right), considering all the negative media attention it gets.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 2:52pm by Karelyn
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#20 Jul 07 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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It gets any kind of attention!?

But yeah, I don't think it gets the attention it deserves. Neither does lineage though, imo.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#21 Jul 07 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
*sigh* ok I came to say what I agree with, but I didn't really agree with anything.

First of all, in reference to Aurelius's post, people need to stop jerking their knee. He's usually one of the few people defending WoW against all the unsubstantiated attacks against it. Maybe he brought it on himself a little with the title of that post but his point was that he's not some fanboi, there's things he doesn't like about it, and they're valid criticisms. He's stuck up for it plenty when people say random attacks with no basis in reality.

Second, DBM isn't the problem; its a reaction to the problem. The problem is very gimmicky fights, where everyone has to do thing A at the same time or the raid wipes, or stand in spot B all at once or everybody wipes. If bosses were just fearsome and powerful and used scary abilities at random times, DBM would have absolutely no effect, no its just to ease the very gimmicky fights. Blame Blizzard for making mobs that do abilities like clockwork and require gimmicky actions instead of just tough fights.

Third about listening to the players: Meh, blizzard doesn't cave as much as people think, that's a myth. They don't do things if they think its a bad idea but some people think they want it. They do things if they think it'll make the game more fun.

As far as class homogenization, its actually not a bad thing. Classes still have trees that give them unique roles, but with more varied characters people spend more time on one character and identify more with it, like you should in an MMORPG.
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#22 Jul 07 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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People play wow because it's easy to learn and has low system requirements.
#23 Jul 07 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Default
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I've never really played WOW, but I don't have a problem with homogenized jobs. Jobs can have a -focus- in a role without being balls to the wall in that role. A Cleric can -focus- on healing but not be able to -only- heal, and that's just dandy in my book. Jobs/classes are more about style than combat role. I don't know who all these tards are that pick up a role playing game and think, "I wanna be a healer/I wanna be the best DD." I know lots of people who like jobs that appeal to them. They might want to be a Cleric that focuses not on healing, but on light elemental damage. What's wrong with letting the player make the kind of character they want?

I mean, if you have jobs A,B,C and roles X,Y,Z, isn't it better to give the player the option if they want to be (A,Z) (B,X) or (C,Y)? Why should everyone have to be (A,X) (B,Y) or (C,Z)?

Classes/jobs have always been more about style than role to me. But role is still a factor, just like not everyone who likes Ninja wants to play as a Ninja that tanks. But if you want to be a Ninja healer, why not? As long as you make the healing something that fits in with the style of being a Ninja, I think it's great.
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#24 Jul 07 2009 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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I like wow but if you want ppl to stop hating wow then lets just stop talking about wow......-.-'
#25 Jul 07 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
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gaiaxzero wrote:
I like wow but if you want ppl to stop hating wow then lets just stop talking about wow......-.-'
That wouldn't help at all. This is something the forum needs to grow out of, and the only way we're going to grow out of the issue is for people to realize childish fanboyism and hatred for WoW won't fly.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 7:51pm by Allegory
#26Jobangles, Posted: Jul 07 2009 at 6:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The FFXIV forum does not need to grow out of it, it is an FFXIV forum after all. If you want to discuss Warcraft with people who like Warcraft, go to a Warcraft forum. Suggestions from other MMORPGs are going to be less & less welcomed as the forum grows, especially after Beta starts.
#27 Jul 07 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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That wouldn't help at all. This is something the forum needs to grow out of, and the only way we're going to grow out of the issue is for people to realize childish fanboyism and hatred for WoW won't fly.


Do you see the contradictions in your own post?
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#28 Jul 07 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
As far as class homogenization, its actually not a bad thing. Classes still have trees that give them unique roles, but with more varied characters people spend more time on one character and identify more with it, like you should in an MMORPG.


I agree, and there's a very distinct reason for the homogenization: "Bring the player, not the class." Anyone who has played FFXI knows darn well by now that SE earned a very substantial amount of money from subscription fees payed by people who spent most of their time in the game sitting in Jeuno or Whitegate with their flag up because the job they wanted to play wasn't considered worthy of a spot in a party. For easily 2 years (if not longer), DRG was the laughing stock of the FFXI community, and it existed that way because apparently SE didn't know enough about how to manage their own game to fine-tune classes that they decided were OP instead of bludgeoning them to the ground and letting them stay there until they were such a rarity in the game that people often forget what they looked like in a party.

Towards the end of WoW's first expansion, Blizzard took a good look at what was going on in the game and came to two conclusions:

1) There was no point in spending a substantial amount of development time (and money) creating content that only 5% of the playerbase was ever going to see.
2) There was something inherently wrong with a system where people were being sat from raids or turned away from guilds not because they were bad players but because the group either already had too many of that class, or needed that spot for a different class solely for the buff that class brought.

As a result, Blizzard took a look at the different group roles based on different categories, namely tanks, pure dps, dps/utility (ie. buffs), and healing. They then looked at where each class/spec fit within those categories as well as which buffs guilds were looking at as "mandatory" for progression raids and spread them out so that no one class ever really had a monopoly on the goods.

The homogenization existed to prevent what used to happen in WoW to large extent, but can also be just as directly compared to what tends to happen in FFXI. Regardless of the struggles Blizzard has had with class balancing issues since WoW's most recent expansion went live, Blizzard is so far beyond SE in terms of understanding class balancing and overall game mechanics that no FFXI player should ever really be slamming Blizzard in that department. SE was the developer who nerfed jobs into a state of abject uselessness and left them there for years. SE was the developer who was surprised that the class they created (NIN) wound up as a tank and then let PLD slide into a state of mediocrity because...meh? Everyone loves the pally tank for endgame but nobody wants the pally tank in their xp party because NIN is so much better!! Hurry up and get to 75, Mr. Paladin! (just not in our party :P)

Blizzard has made their fair share of mistakes over the years with WoW, but for a game that came out a couple of years after the NA release of FFXI, they're light years beyond SE in terms of understanding how to tune an MMO. It's entirely possible that SE will demonstrate the full extent of their evolved sense of how to tune an MMO with FFXIV in a way that will astound us all, but for the time being let's call a spade a spade. SE was the most ham-fisted company in terms of tuning an MMO that I've ever seen.

Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:43pm by AureliusSir
#29 Jul 08 2009 at 12:03 AM Rating: Default
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Do you see the contradictions in your own post?

You mean the perfect consistency of my post?

Gaiaxzero said the only way to stop people from hating WoW is to stop talking about it. I said this is wrong, as not talking about a subject doesn't remove someone's hatred of it and the people who hate WoW will still trash talk WoW. So instead I offer the suggestion that whenever someone makes an ignorant or biased post against WoW we call them out on it, educating them on how ridiculous the comment is and shaming the willful ignorance away.

Perfectly consistent. Do you now see how you were mistaken?
#30 Jul 08 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Default
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;_; how come you did'nt quote me... -_- i feel left out.. xD

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:31am by gaiaxzero
#31 Jul 08 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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gaiaxzero wrote:
;_; how come you did'nt quote me... -_- i feel left out.. xD

I quoted you earlier; I'm just trying to share the love!
#32 Jul 08 2009 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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This is an interesting lesson... because we haven't exactly seen the results of it yet.

Around 9 months ago, Blizzard made a decision to radicially change their strategy. They would listen and impliment every single reasonable player suggestion... And they pretty much have been doing it.

Some have been awesome. Some have been lackluster. But this level of fanbase pandering has NEVER been attempted in an MMO before, nothing even close to this scale. And we haven't had the time to see the results yet. Myself? I'm on the fence on the subject. There have been some of the best changes in the history of WoW introduced because of this new policy. And some incredibly crappy stuff.


We have seen the results of ignoring your playerbase, Hellgate London. Bill roper himself admited the game failed because he ignored his players and thought he knew better. WoW isn't the only mmo out there they aren't the first and they aren't the only example of what SE should or shouldn't do. Personally I am sick of the WoW talk I don't come here to read about WoW. That's what the WoW forums are for.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:48am by mezlabor
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#33 Jul 08 2009 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Towards the end of WoW's first expansion, Blizzard took a good look at what was going on in the game and came to two conclusions:

1) There was no point in spending a substantial amount of development time (and money) creating content that only 5% of the playerbase was ever going to see.


Yet we have 3.1 Ulduar.

Honestly I have no problem with the original Ulduar, even though there was no way my guild would be able to take it as released. I sort of see it as the ***** slap blizzard released to everyone whining that WotLK was too easy. The final boss, Algaon (spelling) being the hardcore raider's ********* heard round the world.

I know with 3.2 we can all get ulduar emblems and thus experience ulduar, but that also makes the content diminished in the eyes of the endgamers, but the experience will never be the same.

I kinda prefer the FFXI method of releasing new and difficult endgame events, but never nerfing older endgame events because a new one came out. It took me a good long while to get through CoP missions, and it still was fun and challenging the whole way throughout. I just wish things like besieged, assault, level sync, and campaign were available during the period I was struggling to get through CoP.
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#34 Jul 08 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

You mean the perfect consistency of my post?

Gaiaxzero said the only way to stop people from hating WoW is to stop talking about it. I said this is wrong, as not talking about a subject doesn't remove someone's hatred of it and the people who hate WoW will still trash talk WoW. So instead I offer the suggestion that whenever someone makes an ignorant or biased post against WoW we call them out on it, educating them on how ridiculous the comment is and shaming the willful ignorance away.

Perfectly consistent. Do you now see how you were mistaken?


Yeah... let me again show you what you said:

Quote:
That wouldn't help at all. This is something the forum needs to grow out of, and the only way we're going to grow out of the issue is for people to realize childish fanboyism and hatred for WoW won't fly.


Yep.. I don't sense any sort of "fanboyism" in your post at all.
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#35 Jul 08 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Yep.. I don't sense any sort of "fanboyism" in your post at all.

You have to have a pretty warped perspective to consider anyone who doesn't completely hate a game to be a fanboy.

Quick overview of the MMORPGs I've played:
FFXI
WoW
Lotro
Guild Wars
RF Online (such a terrible game, I feel silly for even trying it)
Warhammer

And I quit WoW before the first expansion (2 years ago?), so clearly I'm a huge WoW fanboy.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 4:03am by Allegory
#36 Jul 08 2009 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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I'm betting you omitted Maple Story because of shame.

I know I do.
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#37 Jul 08 2009 at 1:09 AM Rating: Decent
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We all have gaming regrets...
#38 Jul 08 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Decent
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We all have gaming regrets...


I'm looking at you Hellgate... Age of Conan...
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#39 Jul 08 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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PSO anyone?
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#40 Jul 08 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Yet we have 3.1 Ulduar.

Honestly I have no problem with the original Ulduar, even though there was no way my guild would be able to take it as released.

Ulduar is close to clearable by anyone who actually tries it. Right now as it stands, you can pug your way through the first first 6-7 bosses without any difficulty. Come 3.2 it'll be nerfed so hard that anyone can kill Yogg in a pug, just like the did with Naxx on 3.1

The majority of people who say they can't do Ulduar, are guilds that are stubbornly farming Naxx, thinking they need all best-in-slot gear to do Ulduar, which isn't even close to true. Or guilds with people who are scared to try something new.

Shazaamemt wrote:
I sort of see it as the ***** slap blizzard released to everyone whining that WotLK was too easy. The final boss, Algaon (spelling) being the hardcore raider's ********* heard round the world.

No Keeper Yogg is actually harder than Algalon (and was actually only killed last night for the first time). Algalon is getting a remarkably large number of kills by guilds as time is going on. I'm pretty sure before patch 3.2, Agalon will be comparable to "lol 3 drake Sarth" that like somewhere around 17-20% of guilds cleared (according to wowjutsu), even though it was supposed to be ridiculously hard.

Allegory wrote:
RF Online (such a terrible game, I feel silly for even trying it)

Ugh, I never thought I'd agree with you on something Allegory D:

Shazaamemt wrote:
I'm betting you omitted Maple Story because of shame.

Yes... yes I do... such shame...
._.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 8:50am by Karelyn
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#41 Jul 08 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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You think that's embarassing? I played Shadowbane *shudder*
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#42 Jul 08 2009 at 4:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Blizzard has made their fair share of mistakes over the years with WoW, but for a game that came out a couple of years after the NA release of FFXI, they're light years beyond SE in terms of understanding how to tune an MMO. It's entirely possible that SE will demonstrate the full extent of their evolved sense of how to tune an MMO with FFXIV in a way that will astound us all, but for the time being let's call a spade a spade. SE was the most ham-fisted company in terms of tuning an MMO that I've ever seen.


I think it has more to do with the fact that WoW itself allows for this kind of tweaking much more easily than FFXI's core system.

They really shot themselves in the foot by implementing many stupid things in 1999-2004, and although the dev tean right now is at the same level as Blizzard's is (imo), it's too late and not worth it to change things so drastically in a game like FFXI. That doesn't mean that they're not aware, though, and for as much as FFXI allows them to try to change things they've been doing pretty well overall, I'd say.
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#43 Jul 08 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:

They really shot themselves in the foot by implementing many stupid things in 1999-2004, and although the dev tean right now is at the same level as Blizzard's is (imo), it's too late and not worth it to change things so drastically in a game like FFXI. That doesn't mean that they're not aware, though, and for as much as FFXI allows them to try to change things they've been doing pretty well overall, I'd say.


I agree, so I'm trying to keep my critique of SE's tuning to past references and not make any sweeping statements about where they might be with the concepts today. I think a lot of SE's difficulty with FFXI was that everything scaled so poorly. When you're talking about a game where +1/2/3 to a stat can still make a significant difference to your performance at end-game levels, the devs haven't given themselves much room to muck around if they need to adjust things later. By the same token, I think Blizzard may have overdone that aspect in WoW...stats in WotLK are starting to scale out of control. It was fun at the time but looking back, tanks with 35-40k HP is sort of pushing the envelope beyond reason in an RPG type setting.
#44 Jul 08 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Yet we have 3.1 Ulduar.

Honestly I have no problem with the original Ulduar, even though there was no way my guild would be able to take it as released. I sort of see it as the ***** slap blizzard released to everyone whining that WotLK was too easy. The final boss, Algaon (spelling) being the hardcore raider's ********* heard round the world.


Algalon was announced as an encounter specifically for the top end raider segment. There's a difference between one encounter in a raid instance that is untouchable by most guilds and an entire raid instance that the vast majority of guilds never had a chance to attempt when it was still current (SWP).

Any guild that is reasonably competent can see Ulduar from start to finish. Whether or not they are able to manage any of the encounters on hardmode or down Algalon is a different story, but at least they get to experience the instance. They can see the zone and they can take part in the encounters, so when Blizzard is pouring all of that development time and money into creating the zone and everything in it, the only people who will never see it before it's no longer current (aka before the next expansion) are the ones who are either not interested in raiding or they and/or their guild are not very good raiders. Naxx even pre-3.1 was heralded as a beginner raid dungeon. Guilds struggling in Naxx today such that they can't get geared for Ulduar...well, lots of potential reasons for it but none of them reflect very well on that guild.
#45 Jul 08 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I agree, so I'm trying to keep my critique of SE's tuning to past references and not make any sweeping statements about where they might be with the concepts today. I think a lot of SE's difficulty with FFXI was that everything scaled so poorly. When you're talking about a game where +1/2/3 to a stat can still make a significant difference to your performance at end-game levels, the devs haven't given themselves much room to muck around if they need to adjust things later. By the same token, I think Blizzard may have overdone that aspect in WoW...stats in WotLK are starting to scale out of control. It was fun at the time but looking back, tanks with 35-40k HP is sort of pushing the envelope beyond reason in an RPG type setting.


Aye.. when I see the dev team of today, I always think that if they could create a new MMO without the mistakes the inexperienced dev team made that hinder the game today, it'd become better than most of what's in the market these days.

Maybe I'm being overly positive about it (and I think I am), but when I analyze the problems of current FFXI... 90% of the time they stem from the 2002-2005 era, and are 'too difficult' to fix now with what FFXI has become.

And you're right about scaling, they didn't leave room for improvements and that's something that almost ruined the whole game for them. What they did to try to solve the issue wasn't enough, but I think they handled the problem pretty well in general (without making it worse at least).
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#46 Jul 08 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir wrote:
When you're talking about a game where +1/2/3 to a stat can still make a significant difference to your performance at end-game levels, the devs haven't given themselves much room to muck around if they need to adjust things later. By the same token, I think Blizzard may have overdone that aspect in WoW...stats in WotLK are starting to scale out of control. It was fun at the time but looking back, tanks with 35-40k HP is sort of pushing the envelope beyond reason in an RPG type setting.

Before WoW is over, we'll be seeing tanks with millions of HP, possibly even billions. It'll be the Disgaea of MMOs...

Yay Disgaea, the only RPG where you can do billions of damage to enemies... and it not be huge overkill.

From the perspective of they are intentionally trying to make old content obsolete, because they don't want new players to be left behind without 40 people to get together to clear Molten Core while the majority of the playerbase is on many raids ahead...

Technically, I think that's why they made the huge gear reset for Burning Crusade in the first place. The playerbased worked themselves into a hole, where it was really hard to get a raid together to clear Molten Core, and only a small portion of the playerbase was ahead in later raids. And every raid they added, it just kept getting worse, with earlier raids becoming more and more difficult to clear, just out of a limited pool of players to pull from.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 1:11pm by Karelyn
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#47 Jul 08 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah it seems intentional to me. Pretty sad if the old content was well done, but it does allow for a faster progress and better drop rates I guess.
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#48 Jul 08 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Yeah it seems intentional to me. Pretty sad if the old content was well done, but it does allow for a faster progress and better drop rates I guess.

It's sad in a way. But, it only takes a quick walk through Molten Core or Naxx, to remember that while the old instances were good at one point... They have aged, and they have aged badly.

Blizzard insists on one-upping themselves with every raid instance they make

The old instances are terribly un-fun compared to newer instances, and even Naxx, which is often regarded as the best raid Blizzard ever made, suffers horribly from old age when you redo it in Northrend. You can TELL it's years old and it feels outdated. While I had a lot of fun in the original Naxx, going to the new Naxx feels icky (And not just because it's easier than it was originally).

While the old content was good... Time moves on. MMOs are designed in such a way that you cannot complete all the content if you did not start near the beginning of the game's creation.

As far as I can say, it's better that people be able to play in the newer and more refined content, than be stuck on the stuff that was made 6 years ago, and pales in comparison to the newer stuff.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 1:38pm by Karelyn
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#49 Jul 08 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I don't know... if the player can't see the difference between the old and new content, I don't think it'd be that bad..

I mean, if you took a 'new' guy to a lvl60 raid, would he think it's awesome or that it's outdated? After that he could progress to newer stuff, which feels more fresh and gets better as he goes on..

Like a guy who gets to lvl75, goes to dynamis, thinks it's fun and fresh, even if the oldschool players know that it's quite outdated by now..

It's just that FFXI wasn't designed in such a way, so it's a bit hard for me to get used to this new trend, but I'm trying to see the good and bad sides of it.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 5:50pm by Hyanmen
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#50 Jul 08 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Well, I don't know... if the player can't see the difference between the old and new content, I don't think it'd be that bad..

I mean, if you took a 'new' guy to a lvl60 raid, would he think it's awesome or that it's outdated? After that he could progress to newer stuff, which feels more fresh and gets better as he goes on..

Oh I agree. I still run older raids from time to time just to do it. And occasionally I'll get a first time player invited. And I'll watch them scream in ooooohs and ahhhs over how amazing Molten Core is.

And while I'm happy to see the person get to experience a raid instance for the first time, a part of me dies inside, because I know that there is stuff out there which is a lot better. Frankly put, Molten Core is horribly boring by comparison...

"Back in my day, we had only 7 models/skins for mobs and bosses in our raid instance, only 3 of which were unique to the raid! A raid that was supposed to take us months to clear! AND WE LIKED IT! WE LOVED IT!"

...

And like I said, you seem to assume people would be able to progress to newer stuff... There eventually reaches a point in an MMO's life (and this has happened with quite a few MMOs), where the wall of content that a new player has to overcome in order to be on par with everyone else eventually becomes so steep, that new players simply stop participating in the game.

Is there any reason really to prevent a new player from being able to participate with others in the "New and Exciting" content which is an improvement over the older outdated stuff?

This is one of the things I frequently criticize people in WoW for saying... "Just because they nerfed content after you cleared it, doesn't make your achievement any less valid because other people are now able to see what you saw. Don't get in a hissy fit about it." and yeah I know you aren't throwing a hissy fit like a selection of high end WoW raiders do. But yeah, the point I think is a simple one to understand.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 2:05pm by Karelyn
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#51 Jul 08 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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I hate WoW because of what it has done to the MMO genre. It focuses so much on the end game that it practically ignores the RPG aspect of leveling (you know, the journey that MMO's used to be all about), and does everything it can to help players skip through it as fast as possible. Blizzard may as well just do away with leveling altogether to focus on pointless item collection and those gimicky raids, because that's what WoW is.

I enjoy the slow paced journey from level 1 to whatever. When I hit max level in an MMO, I typically re-roll to try something new and enjoy the game all over again. Ever since WoW's release, there haven't been any original MMO's that include the whole RPG package. WoW's formula of luring in players with an easy button and then keeping their subs with a carrot on a string is great for making them money, but is not a recipe for a great RPG. It irritates me that all I see these days are poor attempts to follow that formula. I don't need ten copies of WoW. I never wanted to play the first one to begin with.

I hope FFXIV is nothing like WoW.

Edited, Jul 8th 2009 2:04pm by Calispel
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