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#1 Jul 10 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Having to wait for new information seems to be my bane. I even went as far as to stay away from this forum and not think about what the game could end up being like.

DIdn't work to well. So um..

Yeah. About that combat system. randomly I thought of a small system to select spells and abilities not related to macros. On screen, somewhere where you can see but isn't in the way you have a small grid in a circle with round icons. These icons reflect different abilities, and are unique looking. You go through a separate menu and select where you want to place them. If you are playing on the ps3 and use a controller, you can press the d-pad to rotate this grid to select different abilities press square. 8 10 and 12 icon grids. I guess they can be unlockable as you progress. For pc users, many different ways to select. Either key-bind the keys how you want so you can press them on the keyboard or a game pad (like my n52 speed pad). Select them via mouse click. Last option is a similar method where you press the arrow keys to select and press whatever button you wish (key-bind). Then have macro's you can create to associate /cast spell for different abilities aside from your main list. But limited to 1 spell per keyboard press or mouse click. That disappear and reappear from screen. These spells or abilities could be used for utility or something you don't actively use 24/7 for that job. These options you select from the options screen as your main preference.

I was playing a demo of FFXII. Never got around to playing the actual version. People always said it was terrible or whatever and I was too busy because of my mmo-play style. I regret that. The demo isn't like the actual game i'm sure but what I saw was pretty similar to FFXI but in a better way. It was way faster to select combat, i didn't like how they auto moved you in position but it was kinda cool. The movement was overall better. I could see what everyone was targeted and the UI was pretty clean. Problem was it wasn't a combat system that would work for a mmo. Selecting spells was terrible, but it was surprisingly easier than FFXI if you didn't have macros. I also liked the battle stances versus FFXI. While similar, it was differently cooler looking.

Reflecting on the above statement. It is my hope that combat is faster pace but within reason. Attacking 50 times in 10 seconds is cool but it can get overwhelming sometimes. (like on my rogue in wow yesterday I achieved 0.8 attack speed and it was blistering fast to the point where actually using finishers was impossible.) Quickly going back between targets without any additional screens is a plus. Running up and smacking an enemy would be nice. Makes me think of pulling on a low level monk in the dunes where I had to run up to the crab, activate combat, wait to deal out a hit, hit it, select yet another button to be able to turn around freely and run back to the party. Now granted I shouldn't be pulling as a monk, but I could pull it off and other people were lazy in that particular party(s). Getting pebbles is annoying and id have run out in no time anyway so that was my only method. If I could have freely ran up, kicked it on the *** on my way back to the party would have been better.

Combat stances would be neat too, say if you were a particular job, you could have different stances wielding the same weapon(s) and shield depending if you were in aggressive or defensive stance. Could also input a stance that is more balanced between the two. Your character looks different in the varying stances and could either dish out more damage, or be more protective oriented. Switching the stances on the fly would be cool to the point where if you preemptively anticipate each attack you could switch to take less damage in time to preform a perfect guard... give you something else to do besides sitting around waiting to attack once.


My thing with parties. I like parties, as most people did in FFXI. It is a community driven event. You got to know everyone, if they were a bad player or a really good one. But there was too much emphasis on parting. Going out on your own more often would have helped, but when you go up against something that is considered decent challenge or even too weak, you had a rough time. It was mostly impart to FFXI's combat system though, you wait 8 seconds to deal out one attack, and miss, and in vain attempt to build up tp to use. By the time you do that, you're lying on the floor. Having a more active role in combat should dictate how difficult the encounter was.. especially if you know all that gear you wasted time to get was considered excellent. That DC mob should be running from you. On that note, I still think getting in a party should merit higher returns. Allowing you to take on mobs that would otherwise be out of your range. The benefit being greater, and isn't super slow to the point where you have a group of 6 people fighting the same tough mob for 3-5 minutes. It is good to hear that it is expected of us to take on a group of mobs at once. That makes it more interesting and leads me to believe a system that has a more active role in combat is possible. Where everyone in the party plays a part in the flow of combat, changing positions, actively warding off, healing, kiting the sucker around. Whatever you like. Also resting shouldn't be slow, it should be a time out or whatever, but not to the point where you have a party and all the casters are resting 70% of the time, getting up to cast spells and what not. That's boring.. more movement for the casters please. I don't want to rest in the middle of combat, I want to be fighting.

I believe that the game should allow you to go off on your own and do well by yourself, but if you want to party, the game doesn't restrict how well you progress in a team setting. I think it should be far superior to solo play of course, it allows interaction throughout all the tiers in the game and not just the last one. People won't have a team mindset. To help others and work towards a goal. But if you want to go solo for a bit because of time restraints, or you just prefer it. It shouldn't hinder you either. I'm hoping for both to be an option and a big role in how the game operates from when you first start, till whatever endgame activity becomes.

Which brings me to the question of items and if we should use more of them in combat. In my opinion, using items to refresh your mp, and gain a little bit extra mp and hp should be an option but with limits. I don't want to win a battle because I used 50 potions and 30 ethers in rapid succession. But I also don't want to have to recover after every single fight. I good medium would be, small mp gains as you move or actively regaining mp during combat unless casting a spell. Health doesn't recover in combat unless someone used an item that did that effect or spell. But afterwards you regain small amounts as you aren't in combat. Resting like in FFXI should allow a larger boost in MP and HP regeneration than standing around out of combat (or moving like stated before). You aren't allowed to rest in combat, only out of combat. Using spells to heal such as cure and others are unlimited to use in combat like any FFXI, but the items has a # limit to use in a given time frame in or out of combat. Like say, you can use 3 items in a 10 minute time frame. Each type of item has a limit to when it can be used again, healing is separate from mp restore and can be used back to back. But using 2 ethers requires 30 seconds to 2 minutes.


Ok, now for armor. Hopefully jobs have armor that looks specific enough that you don't need to target them to know its such and such job. I'm hoping for a huge variety of different armor in terms of looks. Like warrior paladin and dark knight generally wear the heaviest of armor (through out their career) but as you progress further, they take on different looks. One has huge spikes coming out of everywhere and possess an dark aura. another has a hidden agenda behind that armored helmet. and of course the angelic presence you get when around a paladin in its strikingly stalwart attire. I know you're thinking about AF armor. But I think as you progress most of the armor they equip should have a theme that says what they are and intend on doing to you if cross them. This might be hard to design, but I know the art team is talented. Just don't want to see the same armor over and over with new expansions. Just colored slightly different.

Another idea about armor, or rather clothing. It would be cool if you could switch into regular looking clothing that you can collect, design or make. Most FF games, especially in the later titles wear normal clothes for the most part. I know this existed in FFXI to some small extent. But to actually implement normal looking clothing from a pair of shorts with different designs (such as straps that lace down, or perhaps emblems) Jewelry you can actually see on your character unless your exterior armor covers it. maybe a hat or bandana... casual boots. Entire outfits that look regal with a bunch of fluff.. I'm really going off the top of my head here so i'll stop for the moment.


Uh.. Pvp. I like pvp, but I didn't like a lot of the pvp wow had worked on. I liked some points, but being able to actively torment people over and over doesn't seem to be fun. (I played on a pvp server nonetheless, but didn't go around trolling low level areas for victims.) Having sanctioned fights is more my style, at least it is challenging. Balista was kind of fun, but I didn't like the level caps, having to get different armor for different fights. Also combat was usually slow, if they ran, and you followed, you could never catch up to them unless you had flee. Even then it was worthless. Again more active abilities and spells that are instant/snares would be better. Another thing, some classes were several times better. I'm not suggesting balance every small thing around each other to the point where you suffer in one area of the game to make up for pvp against you. Having some balance is great though.


I could ramble on about specific spells and effects, but i'll save that for another time. If it was too long, remember I did warn you in the subject. C:


#2 Jul 10 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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A lot of what you wrote sounds exactly like WoW.

Not a bad thing, but even so, very similar to WoW
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#3 Jul 10 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, I play wow and these ideas in my head really don't have much to do with wow. Select which is wow like? If faster combat and more active abilities is wow like, then that is pretty sad. I like doing something in a game, and not waiting for the results. I like FFXI as well, and most of it was improvements on the concept of FFXI without mentioning Levels, exp and the like.
#4 Jul 10 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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zeroskillkyrios wrote:
Hmm, I play wow and these ideas in my head really don't have much to do with wow. Select which is wow like? If faster combat and more active abilities is wow like, then that is pretty sad. I like doing something in a game, and not waiting for the results. I like FFXI as well, and most of it was improvements on the concept of FFXI without mentioning Levels, exp and the like.


I also play WoW.

The stances sound a lot like Warrior. Just refined to to an extent you can stance dance without a negative.

After that, it's a big talk about faster combat and solo, and well, WoW definitely has faster combat than FFXI, and practically everything before 80 is solo play.

Then we come to how MP and HP should be restored. In WoW, out of combat, you recover health and mana over time. Also, if you stop casting, after 5 second you'll recover mana. Just like he said.

Using items also incurs a CD in WoW, so there we see another direct parallel to WoW.

Next, we have armor designs, and as far as WoW is concerned, each teir of gear is synonymous with each class. Each class has a set of gear that's designed for them, and represents them in visual style. It's actually exactly like WoW and FFXI, so I don't see why that is new.

As for the regular clothing gig? There's a lot of shirts, tuxedos, dresses and the like in WoW. Lots of fancy clothing that's there solely for show.

Then we talk about PvP, which he feels should be more involved, more twitchy and involve instant abilities, as well as snares... That sounds a lot like WoW's PVP.

Like I said, none of this is bad. I like WoW after all. But to try and say almost everything he said isn't just a minuscule spin on WoW, or something that's already been done, is a bit ludicrous.

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#5 Jul 10 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like a more strategic approach to combat rather than fast-paced. Not as slow as FFXI, but not as fast as WoW. More skills than FFXI, but less than WoW. The lack of skills would be 'solved' by making lots and lots more systems like TP/WS, Skillchains & Magic Bursts. Things that encourage cooperation and strategy. Protective auras like that Mithra used in the trailer!

Also make the battles more diverse in nature. Fighting on a stormy ship that sways from left to right so it's hard to move around.. Battles on an airship where you have to jump from one ship to another to chase your enemies, and maybe split up at some point.

With some careful planning you could make the 'grind' a series of fights like these (with some repeats of course- stormy ship<>calm ship) that last for long enough to be an interesting timesink.
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#6 Jul 10 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps much of what I talk about is in WoW. However, I'm not going to the extent of it being exactly like WoW. I was mainly referencing FFXI. The combat most likely wont be as fast paced as WoW. I just hope that it is more intuitive and have more active participation in combat besides a bunch of waiting around to auto-swing. Even combat in FFXII went faster than that. Having the ability to change stance in combat was more aesthetic in my mind when I was thinking about it. I'd prefer to have something interesting to look at if I must wait forever to attack. That is what I was referencing. Having the ability to switch stances to avoid taking more damage when you think the person is going to attack isn't like warrior stances. I don't know too many warriors change stances to reduce damage of incoming attacks then switch to berserk stance. Warriors abilities different between the stances, you lose rage and there are many other negatives. What I was talking about was no more than a simple guard. Active shield block or parry if you will. I just used the term stance to dictate that you will change up the way you hold the weapon(s)/shield and footwork I suppose.

I don't think you've seriously looked at the clothing in WoW. Its pretty goofy. I was thinking more in terms of the graphics shown in FFXIV. More detail, more pieces of "normal" clothing. Do you currently play WoW? Sure they had class specific gear in the past, but look at the armor shown now. There is not much in regard for art when it comes to their armor. Most of the classes wear similar if not same looking armor just recolored, and that is something I would like to avoid.

Healing potions in wow you can use every fight, if at least 1 or 2 minutes pass. Everything in WoW pretty much has a short cooldown. Long CD in wow is about a minute, everything is either instant wait 4-12 seconds to reuse. Instant and only resource restriction. .5-6 second cast, channeled. etc etc. Some have complex rotations of several abilities over 10 seconds. Now compare to FFXI, Long cooldowns are 30min-2hr. Short is what 1 min? Only jobs actively doing something is rdm and brd and other utility. Melee jobs and tanks do a whole lot of nothing every couple minutes. Now i'm not talking about having as many active abilities or spells going at one time as wow, but certainly more fast paced and strategic than FFXI. I'd prefer more active abilities that either respond, or in attempt to predict the opponents next move. Using environment to their advantage.

Did you ever play balista? i'm sure you have, how as that involved in the least? You didn't win because you were good, you won because you went up against a job that is poor at pvp. Pvp in FFXI was either too short, or long because you could never catch someone. I think actively fighting someone and winning because of skill. Then there is fights with two skilled individuals and the fight gets dragged out. More of those please.

I guess where I mentioned solo play you forgot that they mentioned it was implemented in FFXIV.. one of the few things mentioned. But along with that is the aspect of group vs group. You and your party verses many. Im hoping for fights like those where everyone isn't aoeing them down, everyone has an aoe ability, and no care whatsoever on how to fight.

I don't want a game like WoW or FFXI, but some aspects of each game will be tied into the next. It is a given. You want there to be an auction house? well guess what, thats been done before. You want a game involving making items, such as a craft? WoW did it.. oh wait so did FFXI. I'm not asking for WoW ui and game play with FF name and graphics. I'm stating ideas to improve upon. I did not emphasize to what degree Mp and Hp was restored, I said a small amount, or a larger amount. I was really refering to about 1mp restored, and while resting about 30 or so every couple seconds. Having to wait to rest, and then ever 6 seconds (or longer) restore but a few points is pretty sad. Taking minutes to rest every fight is boring. I'm sorry if you like it.

I'm pretty sure we aren't going to see 30,000 health in FFXI. I'm even sure we wont see 9999, I personally don't like seeing numbers get maxed out. 4370 maybe the most I might get on a particular job, but it gives a chance to maybe increase it further down the road, who knows.



#7 Jul 10 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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zeroskillkyrios wrote:
Healing potions in wow you can use every fight, if at least 1 or 2 minutes pass. Everything in WoW pretty much has a short cooldown. Long CD in wow is about a minute, everything is either instant wait 4-12 seconds to reuse. Instant and only resource restriction. .5-6 second cast, channeled. etc etc.


1 minute in WoW is more of a medium-length cooldown; long cooldowns are more in the range of 10 to 30 minutes. Examples of this range are Paladins' Lay on Hands (20 minutes; can be reduced to 11 minutes with talents and glyphs) and Druids' Rebirth (20 minutes).

To say nothing of certain crafting cooldowns, which start at 20 hours.
#8 Jul 10 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, a lot of it is in WoW. The only reason I'm stating as such, is because you didn't indicate in your initial post that these are things from WoW you'd like to see in FFXIV.

I agree, combat will need to be more involved, however, I don't want a faster paced, more twitchy combat system like WoW. I think it's better if it's more strategic and more about using abilities at the right time.

No, but if you've played any raiding in WoW, you'd probably heard the term stance dance, which was avoiding certain attacks, or abilities by switching stances.

Your described feature sounding like that, except with the negative aspect, i.e, loss of Rage.

If you you'd like an on-demand block, that you should of said that.

I'm a Tailor in WoW, and I've seen a lot of the normal clothing you can equip, and make. There's a lot of it, and it's all absolutely useless, outside of aesthetics. And yes, I still play WoW, and I realize the to be released tier of gear is minor recolorings and additional effects between the different classes of armor [Leather, Mail etc]

The point is, they're still items that are designed with each class in mind, and they visually represent that. It is a shame they've resorted to just reskinning old models though, however, that's to be expected considering the vast amount of models already in game, it'd be nice to change that, certainly.

Exactly. In your original post, you wanted items to have a short CD between use, and as you said, WoW has this, for practically everything that is instant, and some abilities with cast times.

Most long CDs are roughly 3~5 minutes, whereas short ones would be a minute or so. FFXI has a number of short CD abilities, but it also has long CD abilities, which are intended to have long CDs so they're actually more valuable when the time comes to use them.

The reason WoW's CDs are a lot shorter is obvious. The fights are much more fast paced, and they're intended to be used multiple times. The longest fights in WoW post 60 last at most, 15 minutes. Most bosses are actually much shorter, at around 3~4 minutes.

Now, compare that to FFXI, which has bosses[HNM] that last on average 30~45 minutes, and some that last up till 2 hours. Cooldowns in FFXI, suit the length of time you'll be battling.

My point is that cooldowns can't reall be compared accurately between FFXI and WoW, because their whole battle system is designed with different purposes. One is a fast paced, short heavily cooldown based system, and the other is a lot slower, with longer fights, aimed at keeping in a particular pattern.

I did play Ballista. I never said it was involved. In fact, for the most part, Ballista was extremely unbalanced, and the simple reason for that? PVP wasn't a focus of FFXI, and so therefore, abilities weren't balanced as such.

The option that WoW took, was to balance these areas co-dependently, i.e, abilities had to be balanced to work in both areas, and this often ended up with detriments to classes in one area due to it being too strong in another.

For example, Frost specced Mages in WoW suffer badly in PVE, because they are the de facto PVP spec. Blizzard can't increase their raid viability due to the potential of them being too strong in PVP, so a spec becomes useless in PVE, while being great in PVP.

The fact FFXIV is going to have solo play, doesn't change the fact that WoW is heavily solo based all the way up until 80.

I sincerely hope that FFXIV doesn't end up like WoW's raiding scene at the moment, where any crowd of mobs is AoE'd to death in seconds.

Before every class got given good AoE, there used to be a significant focus on CC and kill order. In raiding, and even 5 Mans, it's now a case of "AoE down" and that's a shame.

I didn't actually imply you wanted a game like WoW, I just stated that a lot of your ideas are almost exactly the same as WoW at the moment.

I don't recall ever saying I -don't- want any of these changes, or that I -don't- want anything from other games. In fact, there's a lot of changes that could be great from other games.

However, I don't think they should rely on those other games, to fix the problems with FFXI, for FFXIV.

Instead, I think they should think of new ways to make the game more accessible, and hopefully, better ways to make it easier for everyone to play the game, while offering something for those who liked to be challenged.

WoW has many great points. FFXI has many great points. It is just a problem, that lot of these great points they have, contradict each other, which makes it very hard to make a new game, incorporating the best of both, without making heavy compromises.




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#9 Jul 10 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope FFXIV adds tons of new features to the battle, job system and whatever they want to call the system for growth in the game. I'm interested in how it plays out, but needless to say, I just want to mention twitchy combat isn't what I'm going for here. I said something in the original post about a combat wheel I guess you could call it where you circle around to select spells and abilities. Twitchy combat couldn't use this method. I'm more into strategy myself, but if we look back at FFXI. Too much restriction and slow combat. I like right timing and all that jazz, but timing it right in FFXI was a snooze-fest.


Don't even compare the bosses. Maybe if the jobs in FFXI could pump out 3,300k damage in a 10 minute period of time and multiply that by 18, then bosses would be downed a lot faster. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not rallying up to have more damage output like WoW has, which is ridiculous btw.. just more interesting.

I did like playing FFXI, besides the slow paced combat and travel and the fact that you couldn't solo unless you over leveled them severely or were a particular job. Oh and over emphasis on parties being the only way to level. I did like being in a skilled party, don't get me wrong on that of course. Get the right people together and you could gain exp like butter. You won't always get said party, and you might have to wait a week to even get a party. If you just started out, and don't have income to start an endeavor such as crafting in FFXI, you don't have much else to do. (I remember back when I played though, I did level pretty quickly, even circles around my friends, but I had a ton of time on my hands, and this was like in what.. 2004? I'm sure more played back then.) Quite discouraging. Progressing by other means, such as soloing gives the up and coming adventurer hope that the game he is playing is one he stays with. When I first started, a RL friend picked it up, and in the same week put it back down. He didn't have the time available to play such a game. I don't blame him. I haven't the time required to play it seriously myself. I'm sure if they had more versatility back then he probably wouldn't have dropped it so fast.

I just want to mention one thing about being a tailor and all the cool "normal" clothing in WoW. They looked like pajamas?? Thats it.

I don't think that needs any more discussion.

On a side note, since there is so much emphasis on weapons in this game. I wonder if there will be traditional mage "weapons" (if you could call it that) wands, and the like or just straight melee oriented weapons. Black mage with sword and actually knows how to use it? Would be funny at least.

They need to hurry up and post some new information though.


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