Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Do you want to go back to hardcore?Follow

#1 Jul 12 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
When the CoP exspansion first came out the missions were tough. I died over and over. It was frustrating.

And I loved it. It was amazing when I finally progressed a little. I guess I love to be tortured?

The next exspansions were nice. I didn't really get the thrill like I had with CoP though.



So do you want FFXVI to go back to hardcore (and not everyone might be able to fully progress) or stay with the recent casual approach (almost everything is easy, even noobs will be able to progress threw everything without breaking sweat)

As a side thought: Maybe they should start with different types of servers. Ranging from Easy Mode to Hard Mode.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#2 Jul 12 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
******
48,718 posts
I would, but the combination of the vocal minority's cries and recent MMOs, the likelihood of truly difficult game is highly unlikely -- nay, impossible.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 6:35am by lolgaxe
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#3 Jul 12 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
**
314 posts
I loved CoP too. I really hope SE recaptures that sense of fulfillment from progressing through the story. The reason CoP was such a pain for so many was not only were the fights pretty hard and required some luck (airship in particular) but you had to have specific jobs for these fights to begin with. I hope with XIV that the difficulty is still there but without the need for cookie cutter settups. Maybe bosses that adjust their behavior slighty based on what jobs are in the party.

I also hope they use a more interactive battle system as a way to carry over the difficulty. For example, in FFXI each weapon had a few different swing animations. Maybe in XIV you could choose which way to swing your weapon to take advantage of enemy weaknesses. This could be done in real time by pressing one of the r1 r2 l1 l2 buttons. This is a petty example but it could work as a small aspect of a larger system.

As far as wanting a harcore game, I do. I want it to be hard as balls and I want to feel a sense of accomplishment from progressing. I just don't want to have to wait around in my mog house every time I want to do something besides craft. When people log in there should always be lots of stuff they can do immediately.
#4 Jul 12 2009 at 4:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Repressed Memories
******
20,808 posts
If FFXIV is hardcore the way MMORPGs do hardcore, then no. Hardcore has always meant "do you have vast amounts of time to waste on trivial activities?" Spending more time getting a group together than working with a group, spending more time farming items to access/buff for content than actually in the content, grouping activities into unnecessarily long windows of time that ***** you over if you have a job, family, or a life.

I'm tired of "hardcore" MMORPGs where the actual content itself is easy and the hard part is in accessing it.
#5 Jul 12 2009 at 4:14 AM Rating: Default
*
89 posts
yeah i would like to see that hardcore-ness again. Althouh, i think, alot of ACTUAL missions are not that hard. They were hard because it required teamwork. When i did some of the missions with random nublets, we would get pwnd so hard because there was alwayse a noob messing things up. However, when i did the same mission with a few people who knew what they were doing, we totally raped that mission.

what im trying to say.... i know they are going to make it more casual and so that solo players can have fun too some times. thats nice! i like that idea. but for the love of god, dont make someone able to solo the missions or the storyline for that matter.
____________________________
There is nothing either good or bad.
But thinking makes it so.
William Shakespeare
#6 Jul 12 2009 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
Quote:
If FFXIV is hardcore the way MMORPGs do hardcore, then no. Hardcore has always meant "do you have vast amounts of time to waste on trivial activities?" Spending more time getting a group together than working with a group, spending more time farming items to access/buff for content than actually in the content, grouping activities into unnecessarily long windows of time that ***** you over if you have a job, family, or a life.

I'm tired of "hardcore" MMORPGs where the actual content itself is easy and the hard part is in accessing it.


True, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm not referring things like "obtaining a relic weapon in Dynamis" by doing easy events a zillion times.

____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#7 Jul 12 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
Repressed Memories
******
20,808 posts
RedGalka wrote:
True, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm not referring things like "obtaining a relic weapon in Dynamis" by doing easy events a zillion times.

But that's what hardcore has come to mean in the context of most MMORPGs. If the devs read this forum and hear "I want a hardcore game," that's what they're going to hear.
#8 Jul 12 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,089 posts
I want it to be hard. At the same time I don't want it to be stupidly hard. If it's brand new...we should all get our buts kicked a few times until some strategies are developed. AV is stupidly hard.
#9 Jul 12 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
240 posts
Quote:
As far as wanting a hardcore game, I do. I want it to be hard as balls and I want to feel a sense of accomplishment from progressing. I just don't want to have to wait around in my mog house every time I want to do something besides craft. When people log in there should always be lots of stuff they can do immediately.


I have to agree. When you log on, you'd like to do stuff right away. Waiting/forming parties though can take a couple hours if not more.

Unfortunately it would be hard to just get a group like that fast anyway, organization always takes time even if the end result is a failure.
____________________________
Raide < Railock / Hume(M) / "Asura" ***Missing Pandemonium***
80 Dragoon / 80 Black Mage / 80 Blue Mage
#10 Jul 12 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
*
98 posts
What I would like to see as a hardcore game, having different enemies have varying Ai to make it difficult. Stats may not differ that much if the same level range. Like say a crab vs demon. But the ai for the demon is far more advanced, different status effects, quick movements and actually giving way to a challenge. At the same time having the battles possible against them is also necessary. I think the problem in FFXI was that the enemies had far more Hp than regular players, making solo difficult, but even in a party certain types were preferred because they were easier. A battle system where a skilled group still has challenge but not pigenholed to find the crab mob of a certain zone. I also want them to add a variety of monsters so that at certain tiered content the easy type mobs like crabs aren't shown after a certain point.
#11 Jul 12 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
*
102 posts
I'd like the entire game to be done like CoP was. Fights had a little difficulty to them, but the rewards were more than worth it. Sea & Limbus were also much more fun than Kings & Dynamis, because they didn't take nearly as much time & you were guaranteed a fight. The story had a little more meat to it too.
#12 Jul 12 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
3,317 posts
No, not if "hardcore" means spend hours gathering a group, buying expensive Phlebotinum, farming random unobtanium (all single-use of course), crossing barren mazes seemingly added just to ***** with you, only to be sent back to start with a huge 'DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT 200 DOLLARS" should someone in your party make the simplest mistake. Doesn't sound like loads of fun to me.

When I completed CoP I was excited all right, excited that I was finally done with all of that crapontent. The true difficulty in CoP lied in just getting there, not in the battles itself. It lied in the fact that you were punished so severely for failure (loss of experience/levels, loss of items, gil, travel time, ect) that no one wanted to help out or risk a loss on a non traditional setup.

The people who cry over S-E changing things because of a "vocal minority" were more concerned over losing their special butterfly status, not in any change of content. They get nostalgic over the time when they were the only ones with the shiny wings. Keep in mind most of the major changes were made when the real minority, these hardcore4eva people, had already completed the expansion.

I'm not saying that all hardcore content is bad, of course it isn't. What I am saying is that it has no place in the main mission line of a major expansion. I think a truly anonymous poll consisting of real players (not just us forum goers or 'all the people I've talked to') would reveal that the majority feel that most of the CoP updates were necessary, if not for the better.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 11:46am by Redyoshi
#13 Jul 12 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
That's a loaded question :P

FFXI was hardcore due to repetition. It was hardcore due to enormous waits between repetitions. I can do repetition, but I won't pay to play a game where the system frequently forces waits of an hour or more (sometimes way more...way, way more). Level sync fixed a lot of that in the low-mid ranges in FFXI, but there's still a wait involved a lot of the time.

I like grinding. Call me crazy, but I don't mind repetition. As long as it has a bit of diversity to it and the freedom to change focus from time to time if things get dull, there's no grind I won't do.

A lot of people site bosses like AV or Pandemonium Warden in FFXI and it wouldn't bother me to see mobs on that scale in FFXIV. What I would prefer not to see, however, are a lot of boss fights where it's either win or get obliterated. Kirin's Astral Flow was an example of boss mechanics that were just stupid. If success in content is based too much around luck instead of strategy, I'm probably going to lose interest.

I like challenge. I loved the CoP missions. What I didn't like about CoP was joining groups where everyone had a tendency to whine about everything and/or trust entirely to luck. I ranted a couple of times back in the day about people who were thick enough to spend hours upon hours wiping in Promyvions/etc. trusting to "luck" and zerg tactics when they could have spent a fraction of the time getting properly prepared, formulating a winning strategy, and simply getting it done.

I think that diversity will be the key to SE's success with FFXIV. The more options you give people for everything from leveling to "endgame" activities, the more likely each player will be to find their own niche and enjoy their time in the game. Diversity is something FFXI sorely lacked for altogether too long. There was plenty of content, but the forced grouping meant that unless you found enough people at your stage of progression on compatible schedules, it was inaccessible. I was stuck on a particular Windurst mission for upwards of 6 months because I couldn't find a group that needed it, nobody who I knew or could find who had already done it wanted to go back and do it again, and on those rare occasions where I found some people and arranged a time to {Gather together} to get it done, they were either no-shows or were on but amazingly one rank higher..........and not wanting to go back and do it again.

It's in an MMO developer's best interest to include lots of opportunities to grind. There's simply no way players could ever reasonably expect a developer to include unique, diverse content for every single step of the progression process. There's the beefy content, and then there are the spaces between the beefy content. As long as the spaces between the beefy bits are adequately fleshed out and entertaining, the game is likely to be a success.
#14 Jul 12 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
209 posts
If I had the same amount of free time I had back in high school, then yes, I would love to play a more difficult game!

I loved having to put in several hours of play to get something done. I guess it made me feel like my hard work had finally paid off and it gave me a reason to keep pushing forward.

I felt really accomplished.

On the other hand, with the way my life is right now I would never be able to put in the same amount of play time that I did back in high school. It's just not possible. For that reason, I would like a more casual and easier game that I can play and advance at my leisure.
____________________________
Toasting makes me uncomfortable. But toast I love. Never start the day without a good piece of toast. In fact, let's toast to toast.
#15 Jul 12 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*****
10,359 posts
I do not want any game, that requires me to rely on the skill of other players, to be hard, no, and especially not when such events are requires to unlock story content. You should save hard content for optional things, like raids, and HNMs.

When I want hardcore I'll play any number of difficult one player games, where I can't get ****** over by someone else not doing their job. If I die in Ninja Gaiden Black because I blocked at the wrong time, it's my fault, and not because I was waiting to be healed by a afk mage.
____________________________
Please use the multigame forum. We always need new posters

paulsol wrote:
I always picture Pensive as a gently pulsating disembodied brain floating in a tank of liquid nutrients.
#16 Jul 12 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
I enjoy tests of my skill, not my patience.

CoP was a nice balance of difficulty and reward with a truly engaging storyline to keep you interested in the next step.

But there was alot of timesink filler that tempered the experience with tedium. I'm looking at you Bronze Key, Huge Dragon Scale, Mistmelt, CCB polymer and Shu-meyo Salt. Not to mention those handful of minimissions that had you running around for seemingly no other reason than to get your mass of pixels their daily exercise.

Looking for group is a factor that added to the timesink, but really, that's a much wider issue SE needs to address.

Remove the fat and gristle that hindered accessibility, and leave players with the challenging and rewarding juicy slab of meat to chew on. I couldn't ask for more.




Edited, Jul 12th 2009 1:39pm by Zemzelette
#17 Jul 12 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Zemzelette wrote:
But there was alot of timesink filler that tempered the experience with tedium. I'm looking at you Bronze Key, Huge Dragon Scale, Mistmelt, CCB polymer and Shu-meyo Salt. Not to mention those handful of minimissions that had you running around for seemingly no other reason than to get your mass of pixels their daily exercise.


That's a big one, too. Travel will always be a topic of discussion, and while FFXI offered a wide array of travel options (which, to SE's credit, continued to expand as the game evolved), travel in FFXI was still slow. There's a place in any MMO for "criss-cross the globe talking to NPCs" type quests/missions, but those types of things should be few and far between, not integral components of every missions series in a game.
#18 Jul 12 2009 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
I liked the amount of travel options I had in FFXI at the end of my player career... it generally didn't take more than 5mins to get anywhere in the world, but it still wasn't too fast either.

What I disliked was that getting those travel options took way too long. I'd be fine if they kept the same pace of travel but really sped up the process of obtaining more options (Chocobos at 10-Teleports to regions at 20-own chocobo at 25-Airship at 30-teleport between cities 40+.. (talking about FFXI levels here)).
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#19 Jul 12 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
349 posts
Hasn't SE already said the game will be more casual but have content to suit all play styles?
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#20 Jul 12 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
****
5,684 posts
mezlabor wrote:
Hasn't SE already said the game will be more casual but have content to suit all play styles?

That really is easier said than done as casual style and hardcore style gaming are basically contradictory. Balancing the two is something that, in general, hasn't really been accomplished yet in a MMORPG.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#21 Jul 12 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
349 posts
I'm going to be very curious to see what they mean by this. I have faith they've learned enough from FF11 to give somethign to everyone.... I hope.

Or they could treat it like yoru standard FF game. Anyone can blast through the main story and finish it without maxing your level or finding all the secret weapons. But if you want to finish the sidequests youd need to be more hardcore for say the weapons in ff7, monster hunt in 12, monster arena in x etc..

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 3:10pm by mezlabor
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#22 Jul 12 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
I still am hopeful that even with their casual approach most battles are of the same difficulty as nerfed CoP was.

Their 'casual' might mean less time consuming, easier, or both... But ****, the director likes HARD stuff so I'll take a guess and say that they mean less time consuming in this case.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#23 Jul 12 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
**
331 posts
The impression I get is that they will have the same level of difficulty as XI and similar content but with the addition of a lot of solo content.
I don't want the game to be too easy. I love the sense of achievement on completing harder tasks.
When they say they are making it more accessible to casual play, I take this to mean they are going to add content to the main game, not just make the main game easier.
#24 Jul 12 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
***
3,416 posts
Somebody needs to ask the dev team what kind of casual they mean... Would be really interesting to know!
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#25 Jul 12 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
349 posts
The only casual that matters to me is no xp loss on death (not gonna be a problem without any xp) and not having to always have a party of 6 to do anything. It can be hard thats fine, I dont mind if it takes 6-7 months to level to cap that's fine I just dont want to feel like I've logged in and made no progress at all... or worse yet lost progress I made on another day...

Oh and tedious respawns and drop rates... I can live without 24 hour re pops and 1% drop rates.
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#26 Jul 12 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
revco wrote:
The impression I get is that they will have the same level of difficulty as XI and similar content but with the addition of a lot of solo content.
I don't want the game to be too easy. I love the sense of achievement on completing harder tasks.
When they say they are making it more accessible to casual play, I take this to mean they are going to add content to the main game, not just make the main game easier.


SE would have a lot of ****** off casual players if they did that. I've said it before, but you can't market a game as casual friendly but retain the core of the game as hardcore. It's almost guaranteed that "casual" players will comprise the majority of the playerbase. You can't say to those people, "Here's the casual content over here...through this door labeled 'casual'. And here's the main part of the game over here...ya, through that door labeled 'hardcore.' Enjoy!"

Blizzard still hasn't perfected the concept of casual and hardcore co-existing in absolute harmony. They've made enormous strides, however, and they're getting closer with each new content patch. The main thing revolves around tuning stats and itemizing in such a way that the hardcore content can function without making the casual content too easy, and the casual content can function without making the hardcore content impossible. One of the biggest leaps they've made is allowing scalable difficulty for endgame encounters with rewards to match. Their first implementation of that concept wasn't perfect so they've retuned the idea and will be implementing it with the next major patch.

The general idea is that "casual" players usually just want to do their thing and still see the content. They like to be rewarded for their efforts but they typically aren't willing/able to commit to extended processes to get it done. Hardcore players are more inclined to have the drive/time to subject themselves to more demanding content, and they want to know that they'll be rewarded according to their commitment. They don't want to see Bob Casual running around in the same gear as them.

There will always be the in-betweens and the whiny monkeys...the ones who want the best rewards but aren't willing to do what is necessary to get them. For the sake of simplicity, we'll exclude those types of people from the conversation...they don't matter anyway ;D

To give you an example, let's say that CoP had been released with two versions of every boss fight; the nerfed versions currently in the game and the versions as they existed when CoP was first released. Players were given the option before entering their first Promyvion boss fight to select one difficulty setting or the other. As soon as they downed that first boss, they were locked in to that difficulty setting for the rest of the missions. If they chose the easier setting, they'd still get to see all of the fights, all of the cutscenes, and all of the CoP zones, but the gear rewards they received as they progressed would be 1/2-2/3 as good as the rewards people got for selecting that harder difficulty setting. If they wanted to, they could go back and re-do all of the missions on the harder difficulty settings and earn the better rewards, but content cleared on the easier setting wouldn't count towards that process.

You'd still get the segment of hardcore folks who have their ego too wrapped up in the game ******** that such horribly gimp noobs were 'allowed' access to the Tavnazia region/Sea/etc., but the hardcore people who play for the challenge and don't worry about what other folks are doing would get their challenge (and the rewards that represent their extra skill/dedication) without leaving the casual folks feeling like they were being excluded from content (the development of which they're helping to pay for).
#27 Jul 12 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
**
600 posts
I don't want it to be hardcore, I want it to be "challenging". Games can be challenging without having to be too freaking hard to even enjoy. I liked the CoP story; however I found myself trying over and over to beat bosses/climb floors (promies) etc, and I didn't even get to enjoy the story/rewards till AFTER I completed the expansion.

When things get too hard for people to enjoy, and players start having to "zerg" and "this-job-only" missions and such, the games starts getting aggravating.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 5:22pm by jayfly
____________________________

Quote:
Fiddle Faddle!

#28 Jul 12 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,218 posts
While I don't mind having a "hardcore/skill check" type of encounter near or at the end of each major story arc, I wouldn't really enjoy the prospect of every single mission being hardcore. Basically, if I show up prepared with a balanced and geared up group, and take some lumps learning the encounters, I'd like to be able to push through each mission in an hour or two. Ultimately I do want to enjoy my evening, not measure the size of my genitalia against digital Peter North again and again until I am willing to cut off a finger or a toe just to progress.
#29 Jul 12 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
372 posts
Hardcore? You say that like its something to be proud of that you have no life and dedicate every waking moment to a virtual reality which only sucks the contents of your (wait, possibly not even your) bank account and promotes unhealthy eating, irregular sleeping patterns and as your flabby belly continues to grow through lack of any effort, your selfestime and respect for one-self goes out the window.

Don't get me wrong, I want a challenge, but I also want to be able to play when I want, for as long as I am able and actually 'progress' without sacrificing most if not all of my real life.

FFXI was vastly to difficult, no 'm sorry, the only thing wrong with it was the epic amount of my time it took just to get into an exp-party and those who view FFXI as the Olimpic level of MMOs, then that's fine too. But SE have made an important discovery and that is that most gamers where born in the 80s/90s and have jobs and families here in 2009 and really, sitting in the same spot for hours every day does not denote skill of any kind.

I'm not trying to be rude, just pointing out a few facts. I've been there though. I loved FFXI and I played it day in day out. It was the first program I turned on in the morning and the last I turned off at night. I've got two jobs to 75 and the rest have been at least 30, with most above 50. I had three other mules and three AF sets on an NPC storage. My highest craft was 80+ and fishing skill 50+ and I had Lu Shangs rod. So I've been there and I've done the hard-core thing... I really don't want to do it again. I just don't have time and my family come first now. I do want to capture that feeling though. I hope they can strike a good balance between casual/group play. My fingers are crossed.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 5:26pm by akelah
#30 Jul 12 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
312 posts
What's with all the replies referencing hardcore as something requiring massive time consumption? Even by reading the OP its clear RedGalka is asking if people want difficulty to be that of the CoP expansion. I'm failing to see where people keep pulling the idea that he was asking if people want things to take massive amounts of time.
#31 Jul 12 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
**
412 posts
Fix traveling times and people might actually be motivated to help others. That would lift the "hardcore" effect people get from FFXI. I honestly believe FFXI is rather easy with the exception of AV and PW. Everything else is just too time consuming.
____________________________
They appeared from the sky, the one without a heart... "Omega"...And the one who followed it..."Shinryuu"...
Final Fantasy 5
#32 Jul 12 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
*
192 posts
Man, if ever there was a set of words deserving net-wide filtration quite like "hardcore" and "casual".

Difficulty wasn't one of the big complaints about FFXI, (there were complaints about things that made the game difficult to play, but I doubt there were quite as many about things in the game actually being challenging) so I don't see why FFXIV can't have a sense of difficulty of some kind.

So long as it's a proper, fair, and transparent challenge with a good sense of curve, it's not like a good sense of difficulty is repellent to "Casual" gamers (though many confused developers like to think so).

And let's not confuse difficulty with "grind".
____________________________
The Other Castle
#33 Jul 12 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
372 posts
Quote:
What's with all the replies referencing hardcore as something requiring massive time consumption? Even by reading the OP its clear RedGalka is asking if people want difficulty to be that of the CoP expansion. I'm failing to see where people keep pulling the idea that he was asking if people want things to take massive amounts of time.


I guess its because, if something is hard, you don't want to do it more than once, unless you're helping a friend or a LS member. How many people (and by that I don't mean you or anyone else who's replied to this thread) would gladly and willingly drop what they're doing to help with a mission that could well have took you three or four attempts for yourself? Not to mention the sheer amount of time it takes (not fiding members, mind you) but running back to your home town and scraping together level-capped equipment and then spend the next fifteen minutes running to a meeting point in the hopes everyone else is ready?

The difficuty was never the problem with FFXI. If your gonna play a game you expect it to challenge you. But FFXI was 90% prep 10% doing something...
#34 Jul 12 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
4,512 posts
akelah wrote:
The difficuty was never the problem with FFXI. If your gonna play a game you expect it to challenge you. But FFXI was 90% prep 10% doing something...


This! This this this this a thousand times this. If there's one thing I wouldn't ever want to see in FFXIV, it's the sheer inane time investment that FFXI required. I loved playing my BLM. I loved nuking the crap out of things. I loved partying. I loved my BRD. I loved my RDM. It was all so much fun.

If I had to continue spending 10 times as much time farming as I did leveling, I would never have made it to the end game. I was doing **** well without the best gear for every new level and constantly got compliments because of it, but at some point it was going to catch up to me. Usually around then I switched classes because it was easier to reuse old gear/get great gear for a new class so I could continue to actually play the game.
____________________________
Mazra wrote:
When you cast Moonfire on someone, it's not some Druid base on the moon launching a precision deathbeam across space to strike people
#35 Jul 12 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
I want the game to be difficult and fun, not long and boring. That is all.
#36 Jul 12 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
3,317 posts
Venion wrote:
What's with all the replies referencing hardcore as something requiring massive time consumption? Even by reading the OP its clear RedGalka is asking if people want difficulty to be that of the CoP expansion. I'm failing to see where people keep pulling the idea that he was asking if people want things to take massive amounts of time.


Because the OP mentions CoP specifically, which I feel got it's "difficulty" from arbitrary massive time consumptions rather then any actual challenge. So no, if CoP is hardcore I can do without.

I think what the majority of people want is something to be challenging because it's challenging, not because it took forever and a day just to get there.

Personally, I'd rather the main storyline be more accessible then CoP was when it was first released. A good game to me is one where the greatest amount of people get access to the largest amount of content.
#37 Jul 12 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
312 posts
Quote:
I guess its because, if something is hard, you don't want to do it more than once, unless you're helping a friend or a LS member. How many people (and by that I don't mean you or anyone else who's replied to this thread) would gladly and willingly drop what they're doing to help with a mission that could well have took you three or four attempts for yourself? Not to mention the sheer amount of time it takes (not fiding members, mind you) but running back to your home town and scraping together level-capped equipment and then spend the next fifteen minutes running to a meeting point in the hopes everyone else is ready?

The difficuty was never the problem with FFXI. If your gonna play a game you expect it to challenge you. But FFXI was 90% prep 10% doing something...


I understand what you're saying and agree with it, however, when I read the OP I don't read it as "Do you want FFXIV to be as challenging and time consuming as CoP" I read it more as if "Do you want FFXIV to be as challenging as the fights in CoP." There's nothing challenging about wasting time so if you remove that from the equation then yes, I would absolutely love FFXIV to be as challenging as CoP.
#38 Jul 12 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
7 posts
The thing about the question this thread poses is, that it's loaded.

"Hardcore" is a word that is used a lot these days. The problem is, it means different things to different people. To some it might mean grinding for several days to gain one level, or it might mean killing a certain mob that drops a needed item .01% of the time. Those, imo, are examples of a hardcore amount of patience, and many take pride in knowing they were willing to invest the time to accomplish those things. It is by all means a legitimate example of hardcore gameplay, but it's also not the only example, as many players find this type of challenge boring and tedious.

Another definition of hardcore is very simply, challenging content. Many players don't want to spend loads of time on what they typically would view as a tedious timesink, and instead would rather be able to have readily accessible but challenging content. A battle that requires a specific strategy and quick thinking is an example of hardcore in the challenging sense. This does not neccesarily have to mean that you need a party of 40 people to take down a boss. An important way of accomplishing this is unpredictable AI behavior. In most MMO's, bosses have static and predictable attack patterns, which allow people to simply come up with a set formula for beating the boss. That is why the challenge aspect of hardcore is often not realized in many MMO's.

They are both legitimate definitions of hardcore, and there of course other examples that could be presented. It is not a 2 sided coin, probably more like a 12 sided dye, so to speak.

A fair compromise imo, would be if SE implemented both of these but be sure to keep them seperated from each other (ie: don't have players grind for several days or weeks as a prereq for the challenging content). The reason for this seperation is that they are polar opposite styles of play and typically do not mix well, particularly for those that prefer the latter style of hardcore. However it is verey important still to make sure that both styles of play are rewarding to the player in some way.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 9:44pm by Aelyaa
#39 Jul 12 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
*
89 posts
Pensive wrote:
I do not want any game, that requires me to rely on the skill of other players, blalblabla


then GTFO

this is FF. It requires some teamwork to advance in the missions. why do you play a mmorpg anyway? so you can finish the game on your own? FFXI's missions were perfect. i liked the way you needed more people to unlock new story content. and btw, not all the missions needed a party to complete it.

and dont get me wrong, although i ******* hated the fact that there was always some ******** messing things up, i would miss it when its not there. a love/hate relation i geuss.
____________________________
There is nothing either good or bad.
But thinking makes it so.
William Shakespeare
#40 Jul 12 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,298 posts
I loved CoP missions. I probably wouldn't have as much if I was not a RNG to begin with and be told by the playerbase, but yeah, it was fun. Would like FFXIV missions, if any, be CoP style and late ToAU missions
____________________________

#41 Jul 12 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Akkio wrote:
Pensive wrote:
I do not want any game, that requires me to rely on the skill of other players, blalblabla


then GTFO

this is FF. It requires some teamwork to advance in the missions. why do you play a mmorpg anyway? so you can finish the game on your own? FFXI's missions were perfect. i liked the way you needed more people to unlock new story content. and btw, not all the missions needed a party to complete it.

and dont get me wrong, although i @#%^ing hated the fact that there was always some ******** messing things up, i would miss it when its not there. a love/hate relation i geuss.

You cut off the important part... "I do not want any game, that requires me to rely on the skill of other players, to be hard"

Here's a hint. There has never been an MMO which has achieved even a medium level of difficulty. Never. It's getting even worse nowadays, with the videogame industry constantly pushing for videogames to become easier and easier.

The reason for this is simple. Most videogamers suck. Hince why if a videogame is hard, it comes with difficulty levels, so that more than a handful of people can beat the game.

When you require a team of 5-72 people to work together, the odds of someone sucking at any one point in time is very high. In order not to make MMOs impossible, they have to be retardedly easy.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 11:10pm by Karelyn
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#42 Jul 12 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
**
424 posts
Quote:
I would, but the combination of the vocal minority's cries and recent MMOs, the likelihood of truly difficult game is highly unlikely -- nay, impossible.


I agree. I never minded that I didn't beat AV, just getting him to pop felt like an accomplishment to me.
I really wish I beat him though.

I never minded that I didn't have dual relic weapons as rdm/nin or as a pld.
**** that would have been sweet but it wasn't for me, not enough time or interest in dynamis.

**** I even remember a time when I got excited to see someone with Diabolos in my party, back when he was first released and I was still struggling with CoP.

Even WoW has its difficulty curve, the other posters just don't want to admit it. Defeating Algalon in the first week of path 3.2's release was unheard of, and presented a difficulty like AV.

The difference being that SE spends more time creating their endgame, and they want it to last, and for many players to have the trials and triumph of defeating that endgame.

Most modern MMOs just decide to nerf the bosses as they release the next endgame areas, although Blizzard has started (and I mean JUST STARTED) to take the old SE tactic... you can only get certain items and achievements if you get the content completed before it is nerfed.

That seems unfair to me though.. I probably won't get through Ulduar achievements before the area gets nerfed for the players, and thus I am never going to get those special items. Yet if the content remained un-nerfed and un-touched, I know that eventually I would defeat it as it is.

Quote:
I would, but the combination of the vocal minority's cries and recent MMOs, the likelihood of truly difficult game is highly unlikely -- nay, impossible.


So yeah, I agree. But the vocal minority also rarely mention the hardcore elements of the games they herald.
So perhaps it is not impossible... those non-hardcore players just must be satisfied enough to leave the hardcore alone.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#43 Jul 12 2009 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
469 posts
You'd have to make bizarre balancing changes to inject real difficulty into an MMO. But you can also look at it another way. It's kind of difficult, in that it's difficult to get everyone to do their jobs right at the same time. I don't know exactly why this is hard, but it always seems to be.
#44 Jul 12 2009 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,416 posts
I think making the game strategically difficult would be easier than making it 'action-game' difficult imo. I don't think real difficulty will ever be achieved with the way MMORPG's are made today..
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#45 Jul 12 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
372 posts
Quote:
It requires some teamwork to advance in the missions.


FFXI required only 'some' teamwork? o_O

Urm...well maybe now-a-days that true, since they've incorporated some solo-ability to the game but back in the day it was 99% team play, with that 1% you could do alone, riding a chocobo to the rondevous point. But since SE have learned from mistakes, their words, the solo content will be included from the start, hence, not so hardcore anymore.

Hardcore is such a funny word when you use it to describe an MMO like FF. You could mean difficulty level, time involved. But I honestly believe the reason it was so hard, was because it took so long.

Edited, Jul 13th 2009 4:59am by akelah
#46 Jul 13 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*****
10,359 posts
Akkio wrote:
then GTFO


Do try to read the entire thing. We're talking about challenge, not the necessity of teamwork required in an online game.

Challenge is nothing alien to me; I like it when games are difficult. I know one dude who almost always plays things on easy, and I can't honestly bring myself to do it because the challenge is part of the reward in games. If I'm playing Gunstar Heroes on hard though, and I'm going to be honest; that game is ******* tough sometimes, I need a competent and practiced partner. Finding those in an mmo like this is more difficult than the missions themselves.

If you want to actually cultivate my friendship ability, then you should do that, by making generally forgiving fights that let most people do them, or at least retry, instead of cultivating my selective friendship ability, making me choose among the nice but incompetent dullards in a pickup, my nice but marginally more competent friends in any linkshell, or the hardcores...

It's not only kinda unfair to well.. lots of dudes, but ultimately antithetical to the very multiplayer spirit that you are espousing and seem to hold so dear.
____________________________
Please use the multigame forum. We always need new posters

paulsol wrote:
I always picture Pensive as a gently pulsating disembodied brain floating in a tank of liquid nutrients.
#47 Jul 13 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
The reason I mentioned CoP was because the exspansions after that weren't any challenge at all. I don't like it when everything is so easy you always win it at the first time. For me a game doesn't work if there isn't anything that requires some effort from to time to time.

And as I mentioned before: time sink & repition of doing easy things is not something that makes the game harder, it just makes the game annoying. I referred to hardcore only in terms of game difficulty which we had before everything got tuned down.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#48 Jul 13 2009 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*****
10,359 posts
Quote:
I don't like it when everything is so easy you always win it at the first time.


Certainly not, but it wouldn't kill Square to throw in the concept of progress through defeat every now and then. Would it have killed them to make animas a key item or something? Why force you to farm for those items every single time you lose?

Raise needs to be combat able also. I mean zombie tactics kind of have their place as is, but you shouldn't be out of a fight for five minutes, especially if it's timed, if you die, and someone can still raise you.
____________________________
Please use the multigame forum. We always need new posters

paulsol wrote:
I always picture Pensive as a gently pulsating disembodied brain floating in a tank of liquid nutrients.
#49 Jul 13 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
777 posts
Pensive wrote:
Raise needs to be combat able also. I mean zombie tactics kind of have their place as is, but you shouldn't be out of a fight for five minutes, especially if it's timed, if you die, and someone can still raise you.

I question whether in-battle raise was appropriate to begin with.

I know in console games, you could use Life in-battle. But in an MMO, it seems to lead to just throwing corpses at a boss until it dies, unless the boss has some sort of timer on it.
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#50 Jul 13 2009 at 4:40 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
131 posts
I like the mission difficulty now in CoP, it still "feels" like a challenge even though most parties now can beat the promies no matter the set up as long as you have a healer and a tank. However at the time of release, I absolutely LOVED how difficult it was. It made me keep wanted to come back so I can say I beat it, I didn't even care about the reward at the time.

Now as someone as said earlier, a lot of us just don't have the time to be that dedicated as we once were. A lot of us are getting actual jobs now and starting families so we don't have the time it use to take to get everything prepped and ready for CoP. Now a days it doesn't take long to get prepped for CoP missions because they aren't as hard as they use to be. The ratio given out earlier with the 90% prep 10% time I think was way off. Unless of course you are talking about doing shouts in Lower Jeuno for your party members. Lets say though you have your party ready to go though, it takes about 15 minutes to make sure everyone has everything they need(there will always be that one guy who doesn't say anything so you assume he is ready then you get to the fight and say "okay everyone use poison pots so you don't go to sleep!" but he doesn't have any and starts saying "zZzZ" and gets mad when you don't wake him) and then about another 15 minute travel time for everyone to get to the required zone.

Now I don't know how fast some of you went through the CoP zones but I would say it was about an average of 20-25 minutes to get from the entrance to the boss. I am including these zones as part of the mission, because they are. Sometimes there might have been things you have to do in those zones to progress to the next part which is why I include them in the mission. Then about a 5 to 10 minute fight depending on the boss. So I would say the prep time and the mission time are roughly similar. Now there are some that do not follow this like the Airship CoP fight but the ones that do follow that I have absolutely no problem with.

I would like difficult missions in FFXIV where you have to work as a team to get things done. I like celebrating with my teammates when completing the really hard missions together. Some of my favorite memories are in CoP with friends, I do not want easy missions where it doesn't even feel like you are trying.
#51 Jul 13 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
Sage
**
372 posts
Quote:
The ratio given out earlier with the 90% prep 10% time I think was way off. Unless of course you are talking about doing shouts in Lower Jeuno for your party members.


That's pretty much exactly what I meant. If I wanted to attempt the next CoP mission I really did have to clear my entire afternoon. I did come from one of the smaller servers (Remora) so maybe I didn't have as many possible recruits as some others. I just know it took way to long shouting an Aht Urgan, then there was the whole running/teleporting/tele to home town to get the capped equipment you needed before heading to the Dem/Medows. Hours could have passed at this point from the first shout, now we have a 20-30 minute run through a creepy zone filled with linkable/agroable/Tough+ mobs and all for a 10 minute fight... So I consider the ratio pretty accurate.

It may be different now, I know I haven't played in a while but of what I remember, there really was too much time involved in preperation.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 25 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (25)