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Do you want to go back to hardcore?Follow

#52 Jul 13 2009 at 7:42 AM Rating: Default
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Karelyn wrote:
I know in console games, you could use Life in-battle. But in an MMO, it seems to lead to just throwing corpses at a boss until it dies, unless the boss has some sort of timer on it.

It doesn't have to be, and I see at least two other ways to prevent if from being so.

1. Raise sickness. You're less effective for the duration of the fight you're raised in. 1 player with raise sickness may not hurt the group, but if the entire party/alliance/raid has raise sickness then you're probably going to lose.

2. Scale up boss difficulty. If bosses are so easy that there is no risk in spending the time and mana/mp to raise a player and heal them to full, then I think the design team has more problems than people throwing corpses at a boss.
#53 Jul 13 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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akelah wrote:


That's pretty much exactly what I meant. If I wanted to attempt the next CoP mission I really did have to clear my entire afternoon. I did come from one of the smaller servers (Remora) so maybe I didn't have as many possible recruits as some others. I just know it took way to long shouting an Aht Urgan, then there was the whole running/teleporting/tele to home town to get the capped equipment you needed before heading to the Dem/Medows. Hours could have passed at this point from the first shout, now we have a 20-30 minute run through a creepy zone filled with linkable/agroable/Tough+ mobs and all for a 10 minute fight... So I consider the ratio pretty accurate.

It may be different now, I know I haven't played in a while but of what I remember, there really was too much time involved in preperation.


Well I was lucky enough to have a CoP static, but I do understand the frustration you could be having if you had to do shouts to get a group together. Because some people can shout for a couple hours just to get 6 members. I don't consider that "hardcore" I consider that a waste of time. When I think of hardcore like the OP, I think of the zones in the mission and the fight.
#54 Jul 13 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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That's why I think 'hardcore' is the wrong word to describe the difficulty of the game. When you think about it, games generally have a challenge in them, they have to or else whats the point in playing them. But when you say 'hardcore' with regards to FFXI, most people are going to assume that is touching upon the time it took to get anything done, because only the die-hard players would have everything done and still play the game.

FFXI is (or was) set apart from most MMOs simply because of the sheer time it took. Its hard for someone who only has an hour to spare to try and play and because of that those 'hardcore' players would sneer at those who couldn't dedicate the time, as if they were some how inferior. I know cos I saw it happen to my friend who was laughed out of parties because she didn't have this, or didn't have that zone unlocked.

Unfortunately that's what hardcore means to me with regards to FFXI and I think thats why there is such a 'feeling' towards those who play WoW. Casual is such a dirty word to FFXI vets (not all mind you, I happen to be one of them but I don't consider myself smarter or more skill-full), WoW in comparrision to FFXI is casual and because of that it is considered only 'hardcore' people play. I just think its a word that didn't belong in the Opening Post simply because of ALL the possible meanings associated with it.

But on topic. Yeah - challenging missions - more soloable quests and fillers and as few time-sinks as possible!
#55 Jul 14 2009 at 6:59 AM Rating: Default
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You know FFXI had strong communities because things were difficult. Now more and more I keep hearing this arguement "I got no time, I want to play casual, I don't have time to shout in Jeuno forever to get groups for this and that". If people had decent linkshells these days the whole "hardcore = time sink" arguement wouldn't even have come up.

And I don't understand why things have to be Easy Mode just because you want to play casual. The one thing has nothing to do with the other. If you play casual it just means you progress slower threw the content in real life time. Which is not shamefull, I'm not trying to degrade you, I'm not looking down on you, it's just a fact, its what casual means...
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#56 Jul 14 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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What I don't understand is why it has to be one or the other. If it's not "CoP hardcore" why it's automatically "easy mode".

There's a balance here that I'm sure most people can agree on, less unproductive time sinks and more actual content. Casual people just want to be able to spend more time while their online actually progressing instead of just preparing.

Here we have this new game that's in production and now is the time to tell Square-Enix 'This is what we liked and this is what we didn't like'.


Edited, Jul 14th 2009 12:26pm by Redyoshi
#57 Jul 14 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedGalka wrote:
You know FFXI had strong communities because things were difficult. Now more and more I keep hearing this arguement "I got no time, I want to play casual, I don't have time to shout in Jeuno forever to get groups for this and that". If people had decent linkshells these days the whole "hardcore = time sink" arguement wouldn't even have come up.


Every MMO is like that from what I've seen. Relying on PUGs for anything is a sure way to spend a lot of time waiting. The difference is that the waits become less apparent when you have other things you can go do while waiting for a group. FFXI didn't have strong communities because the game was difficult...it had strong communities because the people in those communities were forced to rely on one another to get anything done. If you look at total time spent in FFXI and how much of that time is spent in content I would consider "challenging", the "challenge" was the exception rather than the rule. The rule was wait and grind, and people take that and hold it next to things like AV, Pandemonium Warden, Dynamis (to include relics) and label the game hardcore. If a game is to be labeled hardcore as a general rule, I'd prefer it be labeled as such due to persistent challenge, not persistent dull with small pockets of challenge tucked away here and there.
#58 Jul 14 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You know FFXI had strong communities because things were difficult. Now more and more I keep hearing this arguement "I got no time, I want to play casual, I don't have time to shout in Jeuno forever to get groups for this and that". If people had decent linkshells these days the whole "hardcore = time sink" arguement wouldn't even have come up.

And I don't understand why things have to be Easy Mode just because you want to play casual. The one thing has nothing to do with the other. If you play casual it just means you progress slower threw the content in real life time. Which is not shamefull, I'm not trying to degrade you, I'm not looking down on you, it's just a fact, its what casual means...


Casual to me means something different to how you mean. If I only have an hour to kill on a game I'll log on and do some farming and I expect to actually be able to farm something, not like FFXI where I could kill ten-plus Black Tigers (Sell Fangs in the repeatable quest and the hides to a Jeuno NPC made a signifigant impact on my purse over the course of three days farming) and get three fangs and one hide. That's a terrible ratio. Yes I've had Treasure Hunter and it's not made a recognisable inpact. Four or five more Gil per beast-man, a slightly better chance on getting common drops...

However something like WAR AoC and LOTRO common drops are exactly that, common, and are sellable to NPCs for something more than beans. This is what I want to be a little better, I just want a tiger to drop at least one fang since they have at least four in their bloody mouth. A hide off one in every three maybe... and better prices at NPC's since the Sell and Buy back difference was an insult. There's been a few times I accidently bought something for 10k gil and only got 100 back. Not exact numbers, but you get my point.

Main story and expansions that progress anything or unlock zones should always be difficult, I never had a problem with this in FFXI as I said the only thing that bothered me was the amount of preperation time to do anything. Right now I know they have this way lvl75 gear will be toned down thanks to the party sync they introduced (haven't played since this was introduced so I don't know if I have this right) but this is something that should have been implimented from the start, especially since Inventory/Moghouse space was limited and you had so many 'capped' events.

So just to summarise, I just want FFXIV to have something I can do when I can't donate half of my day and when I can, I will gladly go through difficult and challenging missions which further (as always with SE) a fantastic story. FFXI wouldn't have been 'that' bad if this kind of epic time-sink wasn't involved in everthing you did...



Edited, Jul 14th 2009 1:06pm by akelah

Edited, Jul 14th 2009 1:06pm by akelah
#59 Jul 14 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I just want Accessible content from a casual stand point. There will always be "hardcore" content that is difficult to reach and takes time to organize, ect... This accessible content in FFXI revolved around quest, fishing, crafting, helping others, and somewhat leveling. However later on it was only a matter of time before you need a high level character to access parts of the world where you needed to farm or raise fishing skill. So with my hectic schedule after getting fishing and crafting to a certain levels, solo BST was the only road to travel to make the most of my time so I could continue with the little accessible content I had started.

If you have lots of time to be better spent online then that's great... There WILL be content for you and it will require that time! Just throw us casuals a bone to chew on.
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#60 Jul 14 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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I'm surprised how many people think wasting time means challenging.

Would you rather prepare for a fight by gathering a ton of items you wont need for anything but one fight, or actually participate in the fight?

The obvious answer is participate in the fight. FFXI is not challenging. I've played endgame FFXI and it was not challenging. Nearly every single boss was a tank-n-spank, with a few positional requirements. What made it hard was having 45 pieces of gear in my inventory just so that I can function.

I am hoping for difficult missions/quests/bosses/dungeons. you can make something hard without making it long. 4 hour boss fight is not hard. I'd rather there be 10-20 minute boss fights that require my full attention for the duration.

Trying to stay awake during a long-*** fight is not hard. It is boring.

Sure it's more hardcore to fight a boss for 4 hours but the bottom line is **** near no one has the time for that. People have family/work/school. When 99% of the population cannot fight a boss or quest because it takes too long is not hardcore.

Time wasting != Hardcore.

A great example is a recent fight implemented in wow, the algalon fight. Overall, the fight lasts ~6 minutes, one of the shorter fights compared to other hard modes. However, you can only fight it for one hour per week, and he is the second hardest fight in the game. the vast majority of wow players will eventually see him and fight him, but less than 1% will actually kill him. Does that make algalon casual? i don't think so.


Finally, I'd like to repeat: Time wasting != Hardcore.

Edited, Jul 14th 2009 12:42pm by gumpman

Edited, Jul 14th 2009 12:43pm by gumpman
#61 Jul 14 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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gumpman wrote:
Time wasting != Hardcore.

Finally, I'd like to repeat: Time wasting != Hardcore.

I'm not sure that is true. Almost every game that I've heard described of as hardcore has had significant time wasting aspects. When I hear people talk about players as being hardcore it usually refers to their extreme time dedication to a game.

Hardcore mode on Diablo 2 is entirely defined by its time wasting.
#62 Jul 14 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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That's not necessarily true.

It's just that you and others on this forum associate hardcore with time wasting.

Time wasting is different from actually doing something productive. Standing waiting 6 hours for a 21-24hr pop boss is time wasting. However, some would argue this as hardcore.

The game can still be hardcore and eliminate time wasting.
#63 Jul 14 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Redyoshi wrote:
The true difficulty in CoP lied in just getting there, not in the battles itself. It lied in the fact that you were punished so severely for failure (loss of experience/levels, loss of items, gil, travel time, ect) that no one wanted to help out or risk a loss on a non traditional setup.

This was pretty much what I wanted to say. Besides the stuff you mentioned, there was the time involved in acquiring and storing level-capped gear, farming special items, and putting together a group. Preparing for a mission run could easily take all day. The prospect of losing all that investment, along with gil and EXP, was absolutely daunting.

I have no problem with high-difficulty missions. But what I'd like to see is either a reduction in the time and effort required to get to the battles (to keep the time investment high there could simply be more battles), or some sort of checkpoint system implemented. For instance, once you acquire an item needed to win the battle once, it becomes much easier to get in the future. Once you've traveled through a long and dangerous mission zone once, you can warp directly to the end of it. Once you've beaten each part of a multi-stage battle, you can pick up where you left off.

That being said, I still respect the opinions of people like the OP who, as much as I might not understand it, love this kind of gameplay. If SE really wants to appeal to all audiences with FFXIV as they say they do, then they need to include both the casual five-minute stuff and the insanely hardcore CoP-style parts.

And frankly, I don't know if it really hurts anyone that much. By giving up on CoP, I closed the door to a few cool items and activities, like Limbus, but I never felt that I was missing out on anything fundamental to the game. What was at the end of that road was mostly more insanely hardcore content, like Absolute Virtue, which really only appealed to the people who put up with the CoP missions in the first place.
#64 Jul 14 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Standing waiting 6 hours for a 21-24hr pop boss is time wasting


I'd say ur doin it wrong. :P

WoTG's beastmen NMs aren't so bad, there's 8 of them in one stronghold and repop is about an hour. On my widescan always at least a couple of them are up at any given time. Then get all key items and enter an arena battle for better rewards. I thought SE had the right idea there.
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#65 Jul 14 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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gumpman wrote:
It's just that you and others on this forum associate hardcore with time wasting.

Because I've honestly never heard the term used by anyone to describe a situation in a game that didn't involve time wasting. Time-wasting appears to be a necessary part of the definition of hardcore.
gumpman wrote:
Time wasting is different from actually doing something productive.

Not necessarily. Something can be productive in a game and still waste my time. Grinding out seals for BCNM is productive, but it's still wasting my time.
gumpman wrote:
Standing waiting 6 hours for a 21-24hr pop boss is time wasting. However, some would argue this as hardcore.

I don't know anyone besides you who would argue that waiting 6 hours for a boss to spawn wasn't hardcore.
#66 Jul 14 2009 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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You're right insomuch that Hardcore's etymology is funny,
which is why people are taking such pains to outline their opinions on challenge and time spent when talking about hardcore. I think we have this definition divide because historically hardcore has a relationship to time in an MMO setting, but in the overarching sense of videogames this is not always the case.

There's also the curious notion that while hardcore is used to describe challenge with the implication of time spent in an MMO, there are things that take time but are universally recognized as lacking any challenge whatsoever. For instance, I don't think sitting around Jeuno waiting for an invite is anybody's idea of a challenging experience.

So, while
MMO Hardcore = Challenge + Time

It doesn't follow that
Time = Challenge

Regardless of what might have happened historically, we can extricate Challenge from Time. More and more that seems what the industry and the MMO playerbase is content to do. Whatever particular name we wish to assign that is moot.


Edited, Jul 14th 2009 5:35pm by Zemzelette
#67 Jul 14 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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Do you want to go back to hardcore


Yes

AureliusSir wrote:
That's a loaded question :P

FFXI was hardcore due to repetition. It was hardcore due to enormous waits between repetitions. I can do repetition, but I won't pay to play a game where the system frequently forces waits of an hour or more (sometimes way more...way, way more). Level sync fixed a lot of that in the low-mid ranges in FFXI, but there's still a wait involved a lot of the time.


It only fixed it if you are one of the popular jobs. If you are THF BLU or god forbid PUP you are screwed because now instead of being forced to take you a party can just level sync a WAR or whatever.


Edited, Jul 14th 2009 8:50pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#68 Jul 14 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Default
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mpmaley wrote:
I want it to be hard. At the same time I don't want it to be stupidly hard. If it's brand new...we should all get our buts kicked a few times until some strategies are developed. AV is stupidly hard impossible.


ftfy

Edited, Jul 14th 2009 8:45pm by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#69 Jul 14 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Default
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Hardcore mode on Diablo 2 is entirely defined by its time wasting.


What? Hardcore was permanent death. Time and its consumption are irrelevant.
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#70 Jul 14 2009 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

It only fixed it if you are one of the popular jobs. If you are THF BLU or god forbid PUP you are screwed because now instead of being forced to take you a party can just level sync a WAR or whatever.


That was a playerbase decision though, not a development or gameplay decision. A bias against certain classes tends to evolve amongst players in most MMOs, be it 'overpowered' or 'LoL'. The reason PuP got such a bad rep is because not enough PuPs spent the gil necessary to make the job adequate when LFG. Thus the playerbase didn't trust a PuP that they did not know to have the appropriate gear and attachments. It just became a crap shoot as to whether you got a good PuP or a terrible PuP, whereas you could easily examine the equip of that warrior you invited and easily tell if that player was up-to-snuff or not. The complexity of the PuP class along with it's relatively new introduction are what caused the problems.
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#71 Jul 14 2009 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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Pre-ToaU FFXI is still, and may always be, the most satisfying and addictive gaming experience of my life. Nothing else before or since has come close. But I'm not the guy that played back then. Several years ago I was recently married, my new bride played along with me, and I had literally dozens of free hours a week to spend on FFXI, other games, or whatever entertained me.


Today I have a beautiful 2 1/2 year old daughter, a much more time consuming job, a wife that hasn't touched videogames beyond a DS in 3 years, and far fewer - and more varied - hours that I could possibly spend on the new MMO. I sometimes get a little disappointed that FFXI lost some of what it used to be along the way for those who have the time and the fortitude to tackle it. But I am Very happy that SE is building a game from the ground up that I feel I can explore with my more "adult" schedule.
#72 Jul 14 2009 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Today I have a beautiful 2 1/2 year old daughter, a much more time consuming job, a wife that hasn't touched videogames beyond a DS in 3 years, and far fewer - and more varied - hours that I could possibly spend on the new MMO. I sometimes get a little disappointed that FFXI lost some of what it used to be along the way for those who have the time and the fortitude to tackle it. But I am Very happy that SE is building a game from the ground up that I feel I can explore with my more "adult" schedule.


This and snap on every point, from being married to having a child.

When you think about it, legally most people had to be at least seventeen to play an MMO, seven years on most people are at least twenty-four, not counting those who played FFXI regardless of the age requirement. The player-base FFXI attracted has moved on and grown up and has more important things than a game to distract them, but that's not to say we won't.

There are times when the children are in bed, work is done and you need to escape from the trials of the day.

Hope your wife decides to take up FFXIV!
#73 Jul 15 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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#74 Jul 15 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Copy+Paste the three posts above ^.^/
Including beautiful wife and beautiful daughter!
#75 Jul 15 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
What? Hardcore was permanent death.

Exactly. Instead of spend 3 minutes walking back to your body you have to spend days leveling your character back up and obtaining your items again because you got a phone call, lagged out, or just weren't paying attention for a second. It also made the leveling process slower because you couldn't attempt even the slightest of risks.

Dying in hardcore mode on Diablo 2 was essentially a really, really long corpse run. It wasn't any harder than normal Diablo 2.
#76 Jul 15 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I loved CoP. Like most people here, reaching sea gave you a huge sense of accomplishment; that ring was a badge of honor.

But, let's face it, unless you've been playing since the game's inception when you got that ring you probably were not 'hardcore.'

I staticed most of CoP with a group of people who did not have a 75 job, including myself. We stopped to level a few times when the missions got too high for us. Some runs were a complete disaster due to sheer noobishness. We did Ouryu fight as a sc+mb party -- hard? Sure, but most people nowadays would just say 'Lol, just manaburn it.' No, it didn't occur to us to manaburn it -- we were hella proud when we beat it on our 2nd try, as sc+mb party of newbs. pld/war, mnk/war, thf/nin, rdm/blm, blm/whm, whm/blm. We took the same party to the mithra fight instead of a manaburn. We teamed up with people and took an alliance through the sacrarium, and it was a deathfest. We did the map quests in sea together as we were doing the missions there and died many times as well.

Point I'm trying to make is, sometimes it's the people you go with, not the ride. It's not that CoP was ungodly difficult (it's not, even pre-nerfs. Almost every fight had some sort of a easy-win combo.) It's that we doing CoP were generally newbier and it was difficult to us -- we didn't have merits, expensive meds/gear, or even subjobs -- (really, mnk subbing nin? blasphemy I say, blasphemy!)

As to 'hardcore' -- yes, inventive missions are preferrable to easy but annoying ones. A good storyline is a must. Are multiple relic weapons hardcore? Beating PW/AV? -shrug-. What I'd like to see is more variety, more ways to make every job useful, instead of eventually distilling most fights into one sort of a zerg or another. Make things take teamwork, take tactics -- I'm okay with that.

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#77 Jul 15 2009 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I too love CoP, and agree with most of your post.

But as to asking if multiple relic weapons was 'harcore'? Yes, yes it is. Either it was hardcore or you ripped off alot of people.

I am not saying that we shouldn't have similar hardcore (and completely optional) things in FFXIV such as relic weapons, but lets face it: If you had 2 relic weapons at once on your rdm or pld... you were pretty **** hardcore.
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#78 Jul 16 2009 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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I also loved CoP, although I had mixed feelings about it to start. I loved the challenge and the sheer scale of the expansion, but the level capped areas were a pain at times. I had nothing against the caps in general, it added nicely to the challenge, I just disliked how hard it could be at times to find willing members who had the right capped gear, in my experiences it was the caps that tended to put people off helping with the missions.

Helpful Taru >> "Hey do you need a hand?"
CoP Leader >> "Yes please ^^"
Helpful Taru >> "What cap is that one?"
CoP Leader >> "50"
Helpful Taru >> "Sorry bud, cant help afterall, I dont have anything for that cap"

To begin with I made the mistake of progressing with CoP whenever I saw /shouts for missions, which wasnt the greatest idea. As stated due to the level caps, people didnt always have the necessary capped gear, and as a result finding members and getting the party set up always took much, much longer than other expansions.

Not to mention with these shout parties you would inevitably get a token leech, who claims to have all the necessary meds, and mission specific items (anima, CCB etc) but when you actually reach the big fight you find out, that not only were they lying, but they cant follow instructions either, and end up deviating from the planned strategy (We once had a rdm who tried poisoning Ouryu during a Sleep>Freeze strategy, luckily it was resisted, oh happy days!)

Overall it took me a year on and off to reach Promy: Vahzl(Sp?), joining shouts when and as I saw them.

It wasnt until I joined a static with some LS friends that I really started to enjoy CoP, things like CoP are just so much more enjoyable and much less stressful with friends, it had taken a year to reach Vahzl, but we managed to complete the rest of the expansion in less than a week with as a static.

As for FFXIV I would love it if they included missions of the same caliber as CoP, I'm planning to play FFXIV with some of my FFXI friends including some of my old CoP static, so this time around I'd be able to start the missions with the players I know and trust.

I just hope that if level capped missions are included in FFXIV that they dont implement them in the same way as they originally did in FFXI, and include some variation of FFXI's level sync right from the start, so that carrying around multiple sets of capped gear is no longer necessary, but thats just my 2 cents.

Edited, Jul 16th 2009 10:47am by GenryuOfBahamut
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#79 Jul 24 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm tired of "hardcore" MMORPGs where the actual content itself is easy and the hard part is in accessing it.


Amen to that.
#80 Jul 24 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm all for chalenging Gameplay, but not it being a chalenge to get anything done :P

I loved entering the shattered crystals, fighting those insane battles.. I also loved that it was something everyone could do together with the level capped zone.
#81 Jul 25 2009 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Original CoP difficulty? Yes please.
I think a bunch of us are in agreement that the time speant looking for specific jobs needs to be changed. Heck the whole way we play FFXIV will be different from XI. The actual fights should be strategic just like they were back in the old CoP missions. I am all about playing a game that gives you a sense of accomplishment for learning from your mistakes the first few times.
#82 Jul 25 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I want leveling to be hardcore but everything else somewhere in between FFXI and WoW.
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#83 Jul 29 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, I really do want 14 to be worthy of the FF heritage.

I play FFXI mainly because of the challenges. Recent changes in this game have all but eliminated many of those.

As one of the first few in sea on my server, I remember back to the thrill of the adventure. Each quest, each fight was an accomplishment. There were no guides scripting what we needed to do or avoid, how to set up the parties, ****, there was barely enough information to lead us from mission to mission. But when you won it was a big deal and it made you feel good about yourself. We spent piles of gil on meds and various equipment on battles trying to dial them in. And yes, Altana forbid.. we lost real xp and piles of it on certain battles. But it made us appreciate this game much more and it made better players of us. No Leroy Jenkins allowed. Don't give this stuff out on a silver platter, make peeps work for it.

When I see RMT, I wanna be able to mpk em, jail or no jail, you should gimme a freakin medal.
I want being 75 to mean something more than one week's effort towards 1/15th of a Maat's cap.
I want to see battles that require proper skillchains and MB's in order to win
When you die, anywhere, I want to see significant enough losses in xp that it gives you incentive to stay alive
I want to see more skill required of players as a whole to progress
Don't give me skill when I stand there for hours whacking or casting on a mob, give it too me when I do something smart or skillworthy like skillchain, MB, cast timely enfeebles and remedies, choose the correct avatar or spell...that sort of thing.
Make advancement of levels based on skills achieved and not just xp earned, I am tired of seeing Level 75 jobs with level 8 skills or only half the spells they should have at that point.

By the same token I want to see less mind numbing goofy stuff like
Having to run half way across a zone to catch a warp
Wait for jp midnight for anything
Sit around for any NM window longer than 2 hours
Anything not instanced
A lousy 6 lines to a macro
Not having things like spell timers being shown
Having to spend 30 minutes to get to a BCNM for a 7 minute battle

I suppose this won't appeal to the masses, and every business plan is based on numbers, but I can tell you that the long term players like myself are here because it isn't cookie cutter crap like many of the other MMO's out there.



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R.I.P. Cindy 2.26.56 - 4.18.13
~She made a difference~
#84 Jul 29 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
When the CoP exspansion first came out the missions were tough. I died over and over. It was frustrating.

And I loved it. It was amazing when I finally progressed a little. I guess I love to be tortured?

The next exspansions were nice. I didn't really get the thrill like I had with CoP though.


I used to feel this way too, but nowadays I don't have the time to stay in a group for 3-6 hours at a time. I think a lot of people here have the same predicament. It's amazing that when I started playing this game I was only 18 years old, but now I'm almost 25 and so are many other FFXI players/fans. Ah the good old days, never having time constraints was nice.
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Hunter Avril
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Mage Shantotto
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Faith (Valefor)

#85 Jul 31 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The only thing I didn't like about COP was that the difficulty nearly required particular setups, often poorly balanced ones that meant that the most desired jobs had already done the missions once for themselves and ten times for their friends.

I liked the story and I liked the challenge, but too much of the challenge was not in player skill as much as assembling a workable group of players (with decent capped gear, no less).
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 Jul 31 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I loved CoP too. I really hope SE recaptures that sense of fulfillment from progressing through the story. The reason CoP was such a pain for so many was not only were the fights pretty hard and required some luck (airship in particular) but you had to have specific jobs for these fights to begin with. I hope with XIV that the difficulty is still there but without the need for cookie cutter settups. Maybe bosses that adjust their behavior slighty based on what jobs are in the party.

I also hope they use a more interactive battle system as a way to carry over the difficulty. For example, in FFXI each weapon had a few different swing animations. Maybe in XIV you could choose which way to swing your weapon to take advantage of enemy weaknesses. This could be done in real time by pressing one of the r1 r2 l1 l2 buttons. This is a petty example but it could work as a small aspect of a larger system.

As far as wanting a harcore game, I do. I want it to be hard as balls and I want to feel a sense of accomplishment from progressing. I just don't want to have to wait around in my mog house every time I want to do something besides craft. When people log in there should always be lots of stuff they can do immediately.


This.

XI's main flaw is that you need a 3 hour block to do anything in game. Which is terrible.

That's one advantage WoW has an XI, you can log in for an hour... And accomplish an hours worth of ****.
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#87 Aug 03 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Short answer:

Hardcore as in needing skill and time to complete things; Yes

Hardcore as in playing 6 hours a day 7 days a week; No
#88 Aug 03 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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398 posts
Quote:
Hardcore as in needing skill and time to complete things; Yes


I'de like to add needing to think about what you are doing too but all to often mental chalenge gets left out or over simplified after someone puts a walkthrough up...
#89 Aug 03 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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If people had decent linkshells these days the whole "hardcore = time sink" arguement wouldn't even have come up.


I don't agree with this at all. I had a great LS, but even when you always have reliable people to do things with, it doesn't change the fact that grinding merits, farming and camping sky/sea gods, and camping NMs straight up sucks. And frankly even when you claim something big, there's not a great deal of excitement because most of the mobs are not that strategically challenging, and most of the strategy that IS there is given to you from the group leader straight from an online strat leaving little for everyone else to do but follow orders. And you've been playing the same shallow job for so long that there's really nothing especially unpredictable or exciting about the gameplay, or you've leveled a lot of different jobs by enduring the ridiculous grind that is 1-75.

I remember taking several attempts to clear COP 2-5, for example, with a pickup group. I remember that it was a difficult, fun battle for us. But it would have been just as fun and not nearly as frustrating if we didn't have to deal with A) farming scales, and B)xp loss. The battle itself would still have been challenging and rewarding minus the mandatory farming and grinding to recover xp.

But the point being that sadly, the game is just built around time sinks. And I do consider camping, farming and grinding time sinks. They aren't integral to MMO design. They only exist to stretch out the actual content.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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