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More Job Depth & Less JobsFollow

#1 Jul 24 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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You spend your first year or so farming and grinding your favorite job to the coveted maximum of Lv.75. Once there, many people ask themselves, "OK, what now?", to which the answer is generally meriting out the wazoo and endgame to further exemplify themselves as the greatest Monk or White Mage, etc. the world has ever seen. Yet, do exceptional armor, boosted stats and abilities really entitle someone as an exceptional player of a particular job? No, it simply means you had better friends with more spare time in which to help you acquire that shiny new Burtgang you're sporting.

I hear people say, "More solo play, please. I'm sick of standing for hours looking for a party." The fact of the matter is that people don't want solo play to make them a more self-sufficient player. They want it so that the trip from minimum to maximum will be as short and sweet as they'd like it to be. Really, how many Avesta's or Lemming's are there in the game? Not nearly as many as there are walking around with a Maat's Cap on their heads, I assure you. I don't know either of them personally, but, I'm willing to bet they are pro-active players who chose to do something with what they were given instead of wasting time complaining about it.

Back on point, the evolution of the job roster reminds me of arcade-style fighters, (Mortal Kombat/Street Fighter II), in which each new version boasts 10 new characters who perform much like the original 5. Did we really need Scholar?, Do we not have mage classes that can perform as healers and damage dealers equally already? (BLM SMN RDM) Did we really need PUP, COR or BLU? Didn't we already have BST, BRD and RDM? What I'm asking is simply quality over quantity, and to make endgame achievements a distinct target of solo play.

Lastly, going back to the 'Biggest, baddest SAM of all time', there should be titles granted to characters who have soloed various missions/quests/mobs with various tiers of difficulty to help them stand out.

Edited, Jul 24th 2009 6:44pm by mcboxx
#2 Jul 24 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
More job depth, more jobs.
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#3 Jul 25 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Awww...ur post title mislead me... I thought it was going to put an an idea about having more of a story line for each job, kinda like AF quests they all have a nice story to them. I would like to see a deeper story or quests that open up as you level.

I know there is no lvl system, but an example would be;

-lvl 1.quest opens and u learn about job.
-lvl 20. quest opens and you get a special skill.
-lvl 50. AF quests
-lvl 75. some job related quest opens.
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#4 Jul 25 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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mcboxx wrote:
Lastly, going back to the 'Biggest, baddest SAM of all time', there should be titles granted to characters who have soloed various missions/quests/mobs with various tiers of difficulty to help them stand out.[/i]


Yes. Let's award people for soloing in a group-oriented game.
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#5 Jul 25 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Poubelle the Meaningless wrote:
More job depth, more jobs.


Signed.

More jobs mean people have a better chance of finding a job that matches their play style. It's OK to have jobs that are variations of the same theme (healer, tank, ranged, ect) if they provide enough of that special something that makes them unique. Doing the same thing in different ways.

Keeping things balanced can be a challenge but it's one I believe Square-Enix is more then capable of rising to.
#6 Jul 26 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Did we really need PUP, COR or BLU? Didn't we already have BST, BRD and RDM?


Those are all VERY VERY differing jobs. I played brd, pup, bst, and rdm... and I didn't find them to be ANYTHING alike.

Scholar you have a point on, but really, the ToAU jobs were pretty **** unique. That and there were TONS of fans waiting for a gambler and a blue mage. PuP was sorta left field, but it had its unique charms... poorly developed unique charms.

Quote:
What I'm asking is simply quality over quantity, and to make endgame achievements a distinct target of solo play.


There was quality in those jobs. You must not have played them.

And endgame achievements are the 'distinct target of solo play'?

Diabolo 3 is coming out soon, I am sure you will like it far better than a traditional MMORPG.

As much as solo vs group play is argued on these boards, that might be the FIRST time I saw anyone say that everything including endgame should be done solo.

If you want to play by yourself through every piece of content, then there are 12 other Final Fantasies you can play without even having to pay a subscription fee or an internet fee.



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#7 Jul 27 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
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My hope is that whatever job(s) a person chooses, they will always be able to find a place in whatever activities they choose to do. Whether there are 6 jobs or 20, there should be no more lolJOBs.
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#8 Jul 27 2009 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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My hope is that whatever job(s) a person chooses, they will always be able to find a place in whatever activities they choose to do. Whether there are 6 jobs or 20, there should be no more lolJOBs.


LoLJobs are made by the community. This will always be the case especially if there is as much jobs as FFXI had. It is impossible to have an exact balance of every job, and if one job does something slightly better then another job then that job becomes loljob. There was some drgs that could out parse some wars in exp, and it's ws ability made it a SC job in endgame. Well the point is no job was useless and the loljob comes directly from the players, and this will always be there if one job in the same role does it even slightly better then another job in that role. It is kind of impossible to have an perfect balance in every aspect of the game (every area, every mob, endgame events, etc) between two jobs in the same role.
#9 Jul 27 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Do we not have mage classes that can perform as healers and damage dealers equally already? (BLM SMN RDM) Did we really need PUP, COR or BLU? Didn't we already have BST, BRD and RDM? What I'm asking is simply quality over quantity, and to make endgame achievements a distinct target of solo play.

I don't think I understand what you're asking for. How do you make old jobs higher quality? What defines "quality"? Have you got any examples?

In my opinion, the point of having different jobs like COR versus BRD isn't for them to fulfill different roles (although that's always nice where possible), but to have them play differently. NIN and PLD filled basically the same role as far as a party was concerned, but they offered vastly different experiences to the person behind the keyboard. Same with COR and BRD, Scholar and WHM/BLM, DNC and... whatever it is that Dancer is similar to. I'm just guessing there.

Square got better at this as time went on. The early jobs, especially melee jobs, really weren't very different in how they played or in the roles they filled. WAR and MNK were much too similar, and DRG wasn't much of an improvement. Things finally started getting a little interesting with SAM, and they really took off with the Aht Urghan jobs.

So if there's something I'd like to see the developers keep in mind when designing the jobs in the new game, it's that lesson in creativity. Make everything so different that playing each job is a totally fresh experience.

I don't think that means they shouldn't add new jobs later on. New jobs are just about the most interesting and exciting addition that can be made to an MMO. They just need to be done well.
#10 Jul 27 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
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My hope is that whatever job(s) a person chooses, they will always be able to find a place in whatever activities they choose to do. Whether there are 6 jobs or 20, there should be no more lolJOBs.


LoLJobs are made by the community. This will always be the case especially if there is as much jobs as FFXI had. It is impossible to have an exact balance of every job, and if one job does something slightly better then another job then that job becomes loljob. There was some drgs that could out parse some wars in exp, and it's ws ability made it a SC job in endgame. Well the point is no job was useless and the loljob comes directly from the players, and this will always be there if one job in the same role does it even slightly better then another job in that role. It is kind of impossible to have an perfect balance in every aspect of the game (every area, every mob, endgame events, etc) between two jobs in the same role.



SE are the ones who design the jobs, enemies, and game mechanics. We, as players, can only take what they give us and try to make something workable out of it.

The player base isn't perfect, nor is SE. I think, however, we have a good number of smart and daring people who've tried just about every reasonable combination of jobs/subjobs within various events. If people have tried DNC, THF, RNG, BLM, or pet jobs at events/XP/merits and found them to be utterly useless or even detrimental don't you think there might be a problem with those jobs?
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#11 Jul 27 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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and found them to be utterly useless or even detrimental don't you think there might be a problem with those jobs?


Not anywhere close to utterly useless, it just wasn't as good as other setups so its then perceived as this way. It is a min/max thing and this no where inbetween attitude that make these jobs perceived as a certain way. That is directly based on the players and will never stop because min/max is in human nature. I leveled blm as my first job, before manaburns and meleeburns and even rng burns was even thought of or done. The basic party was SC + MB and I got invited all way to 75 and even max merits (at the time) this way. I didn't join my first manaburn party until I was 72, and even then it was a lol you want 4blms with no tank, are you serious kind of thing. The game has evolved because of the players and all of these jobs can be useful in almost every situation. They will just not be max useful and this is where lol comes from. Its either be the best at it or you fail and pretty much nothing in between.
#12 Jul 27 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Square got better at this as time went on. The early jobs, especially melee jobs, really weren't very different in how they played or in the roles they filled. WAR and MNK were much too similar, and DRG wasn't much of an improvement. Things finally started getting a little interesting with SAM, and they really took off with the Aht Urghan jobs.


I thought that the idea of a melee class that mixed hard hitting physical attacks and black magic spells was a good leap from a warrior which was a tank / damage dealer hybrid and an even further leap from a dragoon which was a melee dpser with a controlable utility / dps pet. Then you have mnk, which was just a straight physical dps class.

The variation was there, it just was not really expanded on or utilized to the best of extents back in the day.

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I don't think that means they shouldn't add new jobs later on. New jobs are just about the most interesting and exciting addition that can be made to an MMO. They just need to be done well.


I would personally wish that they not release new jobs until they have the old ones at least reasonably balanced (not perfectly, but to the extent that all jobs are viable and effecient). Basically, if one job is lagging, don't complicate the mess by adding more jobs to the mix.
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#13 Jul 27 2009 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I would personally wish that they not release new jobs until they have the old ones at least reasonably balanced (not perfectly, but to the extent that all jobs are viable and effecient). Basically, if one job is lagging, don't complicate the mess by adding more jobs to the mix.


That is one of the areas where WoW becomes boring, no new jobs, and balancing in a PVE-only game really doesn't make as much of a difference. ****, in a world with PvP, Brds would have to have survivability and damage potential. The jobs in FFXI were pretty reasonably balanced, its the playerbase that decided that DRG was 'lol'. And it was all because of a nerf to a single weaponskill and a crappy 2hour that most of the players never even experienced.
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#14 Jul 27 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Default
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I would personally wish that they not release new jobs until they have the old ones at least reasonably balanced (not perfectly, but to the extent that all jobs are viable and effecient). Basically, if one job is lagging, don't complicate the mess by adding more jobs to the mix.


.... the jobs ARE reasonably balanced before new ones come out.

First jobs WERE balanced... then throwing in 3 new jobs (sam/drg/nin) UNBALANCES the existing ones... it is a very trial and error process that can't be fixed that quickly...

there is no telling how 3 completely new jobs are going to change existing job roles.

it seemed to me that after CoP they were coming out w/ new jobs too quickly not because they wanted to push new content but because the players begged and begged and SE was simply there to appease them...

if you noticed... original jobs like i said were fairly balanced... added 3 in first expac... unbalanced, then balancing work begins... 2nd expac... no new jobs... plenty more time to balance... 3rd expac... added 3 new jobs, unbalanced, then balancing begins but everyone wants new jobs so they release another 2 to make fans happy and then theres balancing on top of balancing. one new mechanic after another and there is plenty of people who are going to be able to find a way to use those mechanics differently than SE intended... look at NIN.

Easiest way to balance would be to remove certain mechanics from new jobs when they notice an unbalance... but the response from the player base would be terrible from those who have been leveling the new jobs... so their answer is to modify all the other existing jobs... which makes more people happy but has a very likely chance of unbalancing further.

its really SE's only option to make everyone happy. lets face it the amount of gimping they do is far less than the amount of increasing... and when something WAS gimped people whined people moaned people stopped playing those jobs for no other fact than they felt they were better before the "gimp"
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#15 Jul 28 2009 at 2:56 AM Rating: Good
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That is one of the areas where WoW becomes boring, no new jobs, and balancing in a PVE-only game really doesn't make as much of a difference. ****, in a world with PvP, Brds would have to have survivability and damage potential. The jobs in FFXI were pretty reasonably balanced, its the playerbase that decided that DRG was 'lol'. And it was all because of a nerf to a single weaponskill and a crappy 2hour that most of the players never even experienced.


I would argue that since there was a player stigma, that would be a justification that there is an imbalance. The issue is simple, when you're dealing with things other than straight dps (ie. utility) it is player opinion that governs the effectiveness of the class.

In this case, the fact that DRG had lower dps then comparable (ie gear and skill being equivalent and ignoring the outlier "its fine l2play" people) dps and utility which was situationally useful it generates stigma. When a mechanic that allows the DRG to do very nice dps is nerfed, it furthers the stigma.

Then there is the balancing issue of a classes core mechanic (the pet) to be on a 2 hr cd with no easy way to heal it further limits the class.

Simply put, there is a reason why the 2hr ability and pet heals were added later to the game.


Quote:
.... the jobs ARE reasonably balanced before new ones come out.

First jobs WERE balanced... then throwing in 3 new jobs (sam/drg/nin) UNBALANCES the existing ones... it is a very trial and error process that can't be fixed that quickly...

there is no telling how 3 completely new jobs are going to change existing job roles.


More subtle examples aside, tell me how SMN was balanced before the next round of classes came out. And no, a class being defined by it's subjob for 75% of it's gameplay is not balanced.

Tell me how a THF who spends days LFG is balanced before the next round of classes come out.

I do agree that things could be balanced before the first round of jobs came out. TBH i didn't play the japanese version so i do not know.

But the fact remains that adding new jobs does offset the balance (as you said) and there is a track record of simply adding jobs and not tweaking balance for a good long time after that (often well after OTHER jobs have been added to the mix).


And as I said once before-

If the classe are so balanced then why in the SE video of the AV kill is there only like 5 classes in the alliance out of all the classes in the game?
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#16 Jul 28 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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More job depth, more jobs.


QFT...Don't try and take our jobs away. Make the jobs better, but don't trim the offerings down. That doesn't make any sense ^^
#17 Jul 31 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriously, don't think that just because jobs in FFXI were absurdly shallow that it was because there were too many of them. Sometimes I wished SE would just put a 5-year old on staff so that someone with some imagination could generate an idea. There were a hundred good ideas for nearly every job that were never used.

I hope there are twice as many jobs that are ten times as fleshed out. Well, really I hope there are no jobs, but ~500+ abilities that allow you to customize your character.
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#18 Jul 31 2009 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I really hope there aren't "jobs" because there are already stigma's attached to said jobs because of FFXI. Being able to attach "job abilities" and letting the player determine which ones to use at the time would be sweet. It's been discussed over so many times by so many I really am wishing for it. I love BST but no way in **** will I ever be able to party if someone does a search and "BST" is next to my name. Which is another thread on to itself about how to find specific roles if "leveling" is a tree like branching off. However if I'm able to branch out and choose which abilities to use before I leave the ol Mog house then it finally free's the mentality of which jobs suck. Everybody has a chance despite what jobs they love. And the possibilities/combinations with abilities are almost limitless.
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