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#1 Jul 24 2009 at 9:49 PM Rating: Default
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I keep seeing the term sime sink being thrown around on numerous threads. I learned the hard way getting my first job to 75 how long you can wait for a party invite. When I became more comfortable with the game I looked to start everything on my own resulting in me levelling the original 15 jobs to 66+. FFXIV will be alot easier on the people that don't want to put the effort in and those who won't have the time to do so. This is a great thing.

Why don't they apply something similar to the best items in the game. From day one I will be shooting for the best item in relation to my character. Using FFXI as the drawing board for what FFXIV will be comfortable doing, I hope that FFXIV's relic weapon equivalent's can be quested solo the whole way through. I mention this because Dynamis demands a huge commitment yet through it lies the best weapons.

I was wonderring what thoughts people had around soloing certain things in FFXIV. I mean group play should be rewarded but would we not like the option to chip away at a quest here and there on our own even if it means we spend alot more game time completing the mission then our fellow adventurers who did it as a group.

I've been thinking about a way in which drop rates are greatly increased in FFXIV. I remember people speculating that if you eat such and such a thing while killing a particular NM the drop rate increases. Since chance is such a huge component to the Final Fantasy world I can't see them making a guaranteed drop procedure at any point. What I would like to see is dedication being rewarded wrather then through luck. This sounds kind of like the black belt quest in FFXI but I'm thinking more along the lines of solo questing NM drops. What if you had to quest a number of items and then with those items greatly increase the drop rate on that particular NM or that particular race that the NM belongs to.

I look forward to any suggestions or speculation you all have in reguards to the way our time will be speant playing FFXIV
#2 Jul 24 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
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Owenkru wrote:
I keep seeing the term sime sink being thrown around on numerous threads. I learned the hard way getting my first job to 75 how long you can wait for a party invite. When I became more comfortable with the game I looked to start everything on my own resulting in me levelling the original 15 jobs to 66+. FFXIV will be alot easier on the people that don't want to put the effort in and those who won't have the time to do so. This is a great thing.

Why don't they apply something similar to the best items in the game. From day one I will be shooting for the best item in relation to my character. Using FFXI as the drawing board for what FFXIV will be comfortable doing, I hope that FFXIV's relic weapon equivalent's can be quested solo the whole way through. I mention this because Dynamis demands a huge commitment yet through it lies the best weapons.

I was wonderring what thoughts people had around soloing certain things in FFXIV. I mean group play should be rewarded but would we not like the option to chip away at a quest here and there on our own even if it means we spend alot more game time completing the mission then our fellow adventurers who did it as a group.

I've been thinking about a way in which drop rates are greatly increased in FFXIV. I remember people speculating that if you eat such and such a thing while killing a particular NM the drop rate increases. Since chance is such a huge component to the Final Fantasy world I can't see them making a guaranteed drop procedure at any point. What I would like to see is dedication being rewarded wrather then through luck. This sounds kind of like the black belt quest in FFXI but I'm thinking more along the lines of solo questing NM drops. What if you had to quest a number of items and then with those items greatly increase the drop rate on that particular NM or that particular race that the NM belongs to.

I look forward to any suggestions or speculation you all have in reguards to the way our time will be speant playing FFXIV


I think this has been debated a million times. If you have the most powerful item ingame beeing attained soloable no one will group up to get it. Humans always choose the easier path, and solo is and always will be the easiest path.
#3 Jul 24 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
Humans always choose the easier path, and solo is and always will be the easiest path.


Your ******* kidding me right? You think Solo development is going to be easier then grouping? Your blowing "casual" out of proportion. It won't be easy. This is SE we're talking about. They are just not going to hand out "experience/character development" on a silver platter. There will always be a grind... it is absolutely necessary. I believe casual is other ways of earning experience, besides leveling, not always having a 6 man party to advance (1-6 people, take your pick) and travel time cut in half, once the appropriate qualifications have been met. Just more varied ways of developing and advancing your character. Any "experience" done not fighting mobs will likely be small sums. But because there are so many ways to level it keeps players occupied and will advance their character according to the time they invest. Solo does not mean being able to take on the same monster a 6 man party can...
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#4 Jul 24 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
Humans always choose the easier path, and solo is and always will be the easiest path.

I'm glad you said always because it makes it so very easy to prove you wrong. EQ. There, so easy. By far not even the only example, but just the easiest.
#5 Jul 24 2009 at 11:03 PM Rating: Default
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Displace wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Humans always choose the easier path, and solo is and always will be the easiest path.


Your @#%^ing kidding me right? You think Solo development is going to be easier then grouping? Your blowing "casual" out of proportion. It won't be easy. This is SE we're talking about. They are just not going to hand out "experience/character development" on a silver platter. There will always be a grind... it is absolutely necessary. I believe casual is other ways of earning experience, besides leveling, not always having a 6 man party to advance (1-6 people, take your pick) and travel time cut in half, once the appropriate qualifications have been met. Just more varied ways of developing and advancing your character. Any "experience" done not fighting mobs will likely be small sums. But because there are so many ways to level it keeps players occupied and will advance their character according to the time they invest. Solo does not mean being able to take on the same monster a 6 man party can...


I was talking about obtaining the most powerful item ingame through solo. And that will always be easier then do it with a group or in raid.

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 3:04am by Maldavian
#6 Jul 25 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
10 posts
Yes, FFXI had tons of timesinks involved in the best items in the game, something I pray is changed in FFXIV. But I'd also hope that you don't need 6-12/18+ man groups to acquire the best items. Not saying that you should be able to acquire them solo at the same rate as groups, but a solo player or a 3-6 man group should be able to reach the same destination at a slower pace. I have several friends (myself included) who have quit FFXI because it takes too much time to get any of the good items. Whether it is timesinks such as waiting for NMs, Dynamis, or just time spent waiting for people to gather - something that would be eliminated if you could acquire these items with a small tight-knit group or solo even. Not to mention the luck factor when it comes to things dropping lol.
#7 Jul 25 2009 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yes, FFXI had tons of timesinks involved in the best items in the game, something I pray is changed in FFXIV.


The point of the (end)game is to keep players playing as long as possible... why would they change it? >_>
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#8 Jul 25 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
Maldavian wrote:
Displace wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Humans always choose the easier path, and solo is and always will be the easiest path.


Your @#%^ing kidding me right? You think Solo development is going to be easier then grouping? Your blowing "casual" out of proportion. It won't be easy. This is SE we're talking about. They are just not going to hand out "experience/character development" on a silver platter. There will always be a grind... it is absolutely necessary. I believe casual is other ways of earning experience, besides leveling, not always having a 6 man party to advance (1-6 people, take your pick) and travel time cut in half, once the appropriate qualifications have been met. Just more varied ways of developing and advancing your character. Any "experience" done not fighting mobs will likely be small sums. But because there are so many ways to level it keeps players occupied and will advance their character according to the time they invest. Solo does not mean being able to take on the same monster a 6 man party can...


I was talking about obtaining the most powerful item ingame through solo. And that will always be easier then do it with a group or in raid.


Do we need to strap you down and beat you in order to get you to stop using the words "easy" and "without dozens/hundreds of hours of time spent twiddling thumbs" synonymously?
#9 Jul 25 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The point of the (end)game is to keep players playing as long as possible... why would they change it? >_>

Maybe the fact that their model didn't work as well as say... WoW's?
#10 Jul 25 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Maybe the fact that their model didn't work as well as say... WoW's?


And what makes you say that?
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#11 Jul 25 2009 at 12:40 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
And what makes you say that?

Amount of players?
#12 Jul 25 2009 at 12:41 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Amount of players?


That's usually the best way to judge the quality of game, yes. Windows is so much better compared to Mac, too.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#13 Jul 25 2009 at 12:52 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

That's usually the best way to judge the quality of game, yes. Windows is so much better compared to Mac, too.

If you've already forgotten, I was responding to your notion that SE wouldn't want to get rid of the timesinks to keep players playing longer. Nowhere in that did the question of quality come up.
#14 Jul 25 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Default
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If you've already forgotten, I was responding to your notion that SE wouldn't want to get rid of the timesinks to keep players playing longer. Nowhere in that did the question of quality come up.


I'm saying that your argument is not valid. The amount of players tells nothing about WoW's or FFXI's endgame.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#15 Jul 25 2009 at 1:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm saying that your argument is not valid. The amount of players tells nothing about WoW's or FFXI's endgame.

That's exactly what it does. While timesinks are spent keeping the slim amount of players logging in to FFXI everyday, WoW sees a much greater amount of players sign on under their model. You can come up with any argument you want as to why WoW has a much larger player base, but the fact of the matter is they have lot more players enjoying their endgame as opposed to FFXI's. Is it better? That's a matter of opinion. But more and more players are turned off by the extensive timesinks spent in FFXI's endgame. Now don't you think it would be in SE's best interest to adopt a similar model to possibly increase their player base rather than string their currently small player base along?
#16 Jul 25 2009 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Now don't you think it would be in SE's best interest to adopt a similar model to possibly increase their player base rather than string their currently small player base along?


No.

There's nothing wrong with FFXI's endgame model, it was only implemented poorly. There's a whole lot of things SE can take from WoW to make FFXIV better but the endgame model is not one of those things.
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#17 Jul 25 2009 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Do we need to strap you down and beat you in order to get you to stop using the words "easy" and "without dozens/hundreds of hours of time spent twiddling thumbs" synonymously?

No, for that we need a better public education system. The strapped-down-beatings are just for fun.
#18 Jul 25 2009 at 3:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Amount of players?


That's usually the best way to judge the quality of game, yes. Windows is so much better compared to Mac, too.


This is a poor example, since when it comes to operating systems, or computer software in general, the fact that most people use a particular piece of software often DOES make it the best software to choose, for compatibility purposes.

Plus, just because Steve Jobs tells you that Macs are better than PCs doesn't make it so. :)
#19 Jul 25 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Displace wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
Humans always choose the easier path, and solo is and always will be the easiest path.


Your @#%^ing kidding me right? You think Solo development is going to be easier then grouping? Your blowing "casual" out of proportion. It won't be easy. This is SE we're talking about. They are just not going to hand out "experience/character development" on a silver platter. There will always be a grind... it is absolutely necessary. I believe casual is other ways of earning experience, besides leveling, not always having a 6 man party to advance (1-6 people, take your pick) and travel time cut in half, once the appropriate qualifications have been met. Just more varied ways of developing and advancing your character. Any "experience" done not fighting mobs will likely be small sums. But because there are so many ways to level it keeps players occupied and will advance their character according to the time they invest. Solo does not mean being able to take on the same monster a 6 man party can...


I was talking about obtaining the most powerful item ingame through solo. And that will always be easier then do it with a group or in raid.


Do we need to strap you down and beat you in order to get you to stop using the words "easy" and "without dozens/hundreds of hours of time spent twiddling thumbs" synonymously?


Solo hard Vs. Group hard, which of these do you consider tougher?
And in term of making an encounter solo able to be as hard as an encounter that you need a raid to accomplish. It always boils down to this.
Can you justify giving a reward for a solo encounter that has the same quality as a raid setup? If you can then what is the point in doing it in a raid to obtain that item?
#20 Jul 25 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian wrote:
Solo hard Vs. Group hard, which of these do you consider tougher?

1. They're necessarily equal, based on your question.
2. That isn't what you said. You said solo is always easier, which is blatantly wrong.
3. It doesn't matter, because there is no circumstance forcing content to be designed at a specific or equal difficulty level. Developer can arbitrarily set content to whatever difficulty they please.
Maldavian wrote:
Can you justify giving a reward for a solo encounter that has the same quality as a raid setup?

Yes.
Maldavian wrote:
If you can then what is the point in doing it in a raid to obtain that item?

Because raiding could be more fun, or it could even be easier. For some reason you're deliberately choosing not to recognize that group content can be built to be easier than solo content. I'll grant that group content is usually the harder pf the two, but that is because the game designers chose to make it that way. They could have just as easily chosen to make the opposite true. Why are you pretending the developers don't have control over their game? Why are you pretending they can't choose to do something as simple as make a mob's hp 1 billion, solo or raid boss, if they wanted it to be really hard or make the mob's hp 1 if they wanted to make it incredibly easy? They have total and complete control over the difficulty of each individual aspect of the game and can tweak it how they please. Why are you pretending this isn't true?
#21 Jul 25 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
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The fact of the matter is these end game items aren't meant for everyone to have. Therefore they aren't easy to obtain. Also you shouldn;t gauge a quality of an item based on time spent getting it. It's about the difficulty.
Should a lone wolf be able to obtain the epic plate armor of the rainbow god beacuse they spent 3 months putting forth minimal effort over the group of 12 players who came together to defeat the vile lord of darkness in an epic battle that raged on for a hour?

Honestley I thought your post was a joke. I do hope it is. esp this:

Quote:
FFXIV will be alot easier on the people that don't want to put the effort in



If you want to solo your relic weapon. By all means go buy all the AC you need to fund your item. then you'll only need to enter dynamis at most three times. right? get weapon, get deed, kill NM done. (maybe i'm leaving somethien out it's been years since i did relic runs.)

Leave the social dynamics of MULIPLAYER GAME alone!

I for one am glad the FFXI devs have stuck close to their vision of a MMO: focusing on the muliplayer espect of it. I do hope this vision is carried over to FFXIV as well.
Playing a massive muliplayer game is about interacting with your fellow players to achieve goals. the reward for playing as a team vs difficult objectives is higher quallity loot. the reward of no effort should be nothing.
v

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 6:59am by SevenLittleChipmunks
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#22 Jul 25 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The point of the (end)game is to keep players playing as long as possible... why would they change it? >_>

sssSuitandTie wrote:
Maybe the fact that their model didn't work as well as say... WoW's?

Hyanmen wrote:
And what makes you say that?


I have a lot of friends at college that play WoW... eh might as well face it, a lot of people play WoW period. From hearing them talk they seam to pick up their 'endgear sets' or whatever they are called a lot faster. Sorry I don't know the names, I only played the trial for 10 days, and actually enjoyed the more casual laid back playing. But back on topic, they are always saying 'oh I got such and such a tier set last week' or 'yeah I'm up to such and such a set now'. I'm sure it's still challenging, I've heard all the raids and 'endgame' for them is fun, but it also doesn't seem to take them tons of money and a ridiculous amount of time to get it. They don't seem to be bored of it either, they are always doing something or leveling something or having fun because they aren't stuck doing their 'endgame' 24/7 to get a piece of gear that might take months.

That is just the way it seems to me, (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) I wish our endgame wasn't so complicated. Let me clarify that... I mean that it seems hardcore gamers have no problem but if and player is a casual player then it gets a lot more complicated to achieve things. Like I've said in other threads, I love playing this game and everyone who plays this game has different real life situations, so I have to look at what is realistic for me to achieve in the time I have to play. I'd love to be able to get the fancy gear but I have college, work, family and other things that make my playtime smaller than other people. I just have to do things that fit in my time schedule, which unfortunately voids out 90% of endgame. I do Dynamis twice a week and get a 3 run Nyzle (is this even considered endgame?) in there now and then.

That is what I am excited about FFXIV, it seems they are trying to please casual and hardcore gamers. If you want to solo or duo then do it, if you want the groups and big fights do it. Now I'm sure there will still be things I need to join groups for, but it's nice to know they are considering the casual player as well. ^_^

Owenkru wrote:
FFXIV will be alot easier on the people that don't want to put the effort in and those who won't have the time to do so. This is a great thing.


I think this can be said in a better way, maybe more along the lines of: FFXIV will allow casual players to achieve goals in game with their limited time of game play, while also allowing hardcore gamers to play the way they want to.

It's not about wanting it 'easier' or 'not wanting' to put effort in. It's about having fun in the game and knowing that if you have 2 hours to play or 10 hours to play you have advanced your character and achieved something. I don't know if everyone will agree with me since I do come from the casual players point of view, but I think there are a lot more casual players who play FFXI than people think. It's nice to see that SE is realizing not everyone can give 15+ hours a day to this game, and I hope SE can do what they seem to be promising with FFXIV.

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 10:15am by YfandesofBismarck
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#23 Jul 25 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I have a lot of friends at college that play WoW... eh might as well face it, a lot of people play WoW period. From hearing them talk they seam to pick up their 'endgear sets' or whatever they are called a lot faster. Sorry I don't know the names, I only played the trial for 10 days, and actually enjoyed the more casual laid back playing. But back on topic, they are always saying 'oh I got such and such a tier set last week' or 'yeah I'm up to such and such a set now'. I'm sure it's still challenging, I've heard all the raids and 'endgame' for them is fun, but it also doesn't seem to take them tons of money and a ridiculous amount of time to get it. They don't seem to be bored of it either, they are always doing something or leveling something or having fun because they aren't stuck doing their 'endgame' 24/7 to get a piece of gear that might take months.


I'll just say that grass isn't that much greener on the other side.

Faster doesn't always mean better, although it most of the time is what people believe. Instant gratification etc.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#24 Jul 25 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

I'll just say that grass isn't that much greener on the other side.

Faster doesn't always mean better, although it most of the time is what people believe. Instant gratification etc.


Oh I agree, I'm not saying faster is better... but is spending tons of hours and years of your real life to get one weapon a great thing? There needs to be a happy medium, and a lot of endgame isn't that medium.

Salvage for example, you spend a lot of time and runs with other people to get your 15, 25 and 35 pieces for a set... Wow finally got all that, because you have to be fair (some kinda point, or lotting system withing the LS) to others in your group who wanted the same pieces. Now after all that work, go trade them in and maybe a small fee to get your really nice Ares's gear. No... need more? Ok... Orichalcum Ingots, 12 of them, 3.6 mil. Hmm, Imperial Wootz Ingots. 11.4mil? Bloodwood Lumber 1.5 mil. etc... etc... and so on. Now I have to farm to get the gil, spend more time to do Einherjar where some of these items drop etc.

...and don't get me started on my Valkyrie's fork. I saw that weapon and wanted it so bad, what is that like 12 fights and if you happen NOT to loose one it will take you a month to get though all of them just to fight Odin? Oh but if you loose to Odin or don't get the drop you have to start all over again from the beginning and go though another month of fighting (if you don't loose) to get the item once again to fight Odin etc etc... and thats just for a polearm...

This is better? So no the grass isn't greener on the other side, but neither is making it an around the world marathon to get one piece of gear. That's just how I feel.

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 10:36am by YfandesofBismarck

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 1:44pm by YfandesofBismarck
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#25 Jul 25 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
Maldavian wrote:
Solo hard Vs. Group hard, which of these do you consider tougher?


In most cases, the only thing that's substantially harder about group content is not nerdraging on morons who figure group time is the perfect time to stop using their brains. In the overwhelming majority of group experiences I've had in FFXI and WoW end-game (referencing end-game because this was a response to the concept of relics available solo), if people had actually had a clue and thought and/or at least listened to the instructions they were given, the content would have been fairly straightforward. It's people not listening, not thinking, and having somehow managed to invest hundreds of hours into a game and still not understand basic concepts like proximity aggro and threat that made group content "hard". By and large, group content is tuned to a certain extent with the lowest common denominator in mind. As in, "You'd have to be somehow incapacitated to not be able to grasp what's going on, but if you're mediocre you should be fine."

Quote:
And in term of making an encounter solo able to be as hard as an encounter that you need a raid to accomplish. It always boils down to this.
Can you justify giving a reward for a solo encounter that has the same quality as a raid setup? If you can then what is the point in doing it in a raid to obtain that item?


I'm not a supporter of the solo relic idea myself, but I could see an option to allow players to earn something a couple of notches below a relic-type weapon in terms of potency. Keep in mind that not everyone raids for the loot. Personally, I raid because I like to raid. The loot is just a bonus and, more importantly, prepares a person for the next tier of raiding. Itemization and gear rewards are critical to any MMORPG, but ideally they wouldn't be the driving force behind participation in the content. That level of motivation just leads to drama and loot-whoring, and neither of those are elements I enjoy dealing with.
#26 Jul 25 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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First off, thanks to all of you who have replied to the thread. After reading the original post and see how it was understood I wanted to clarify one thing. I was thinking of how dependant you have to be on your shell in order to obtain your relic weapon when I said I hope you can solo that quest the whole way through in FFXIV. For me it isnt hard spending X amount of days/weeks/months acquiring the AC to fund a relic weapon. What I do have a problem with is setting aside over 3 hours in a row twice a week usually in order to do Dynamis. This is unrealistic to the more casual gamer out there. For me it will go family/work/exercise/FFXIV but when I do play FFXIV it will be balls out. Is there something wrong with wanting to rely heavily on yourself and moderately on others?
#27 Jul 25 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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Owenkru wrote:
What I do have a problem with is setting aside over 3 hours in a row twice a week usually in order to do Dynamis. This is unrealistic to the more casual gamer out there. For me it will go family/work/exercise/FFXIV but when I do play FFXIV it will be balls out. Is there something wrong with wanting to rely heavily on yourself and moderately on others?


The setting aside time to do Dyna two times a week is one of the few things I can do in this game. lol

But... yes this game, especially endgame, seems to make players rely heavily on other people and players really can't do anything alone. I don't think it's wrong to want to have some things that a player can achieve on their own and not have to rely on other people as much. I'm sure all of us have had the problem of people backing out, not showing up, or something coming up and having to rearrange all the plans. It can get annoying, especially if it happens a lot, but its part of having to depend on others to achieve goals. I would like to go out and achieve things once in a while without having to depend on others as much, but on the flip side it's nice to have company. I just do what I can do, what I have the time to do, and try to have fun. I'll never have all that nice gear that I'd like to have, but that doesn't mean I can't have fun. ^_^
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#28 Jul 25 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This is better? So no the grass isn't greener on the other side, but neither is making it an around the world marathon to get one piece of gear. That's just how I feel.


It's **** tough to make balanced endgame with the tools we have now imo. An MMO company should invent something revolutionary for all the problems to get fixed really. There's a downside to everything they could do as far as I know.
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#29 Jul 25 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
It's **** tough to make balanced endgame with the tools we have now imo. An MMO company should invent something revolutionary for all the problems to get fixed really. There's a downside to everything they could do as far as I know.


Oh I agree, it's very tough... and everyones idea of 'balance' is different. I think there will always be parts of MMOs people love, hate, or love to hate... We just have to make the best of it and do what we have time to do. Heehee. ^_^
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#30 Jul 25 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Owenkru wrote:
First off, thanks to all of you who have replied to the thread. After reading the original post and see how it was understood I wanted to clarify one thing. I was thinking of how dependant you have to be on your shell in order to obtain your relic weapon when I said I hope you can solo that quest the whole way through in FFXIV. For me it isnt hard spending X amount of days/weeks/months acquiring the AC to fund a relic weapon. What I do have a problem with is setting aside over 3 hours in a row twice a week usually in order to do Dynamis. This is unrealistic to the more casual gamer out there. For me it will go family/work/exercise/FFXIV but when I do play FFXIV it will be balls out. Is there something wrong with wanting to rely heavily on yourself and moderately on others?



Those items aren't meant for everyone to have. Thats why it's difficult to obtain. If everyone was running around with a Relic weapon then they wouldn't be special anymore.

If you want the best of the best you work for it.
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#31 Jul 25 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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If I didn't want to work for relic I never would've obtained Maat's cap. That was the most fun I've ever had in any video game (grinding and the actual fights). When a game feels like work I don't play it anymore.
#32 Jul 25 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Because raiding could be more fun, or it could even be easier. For some reason you're deliberately choosing not to recognize that group content can be built to be easier than solo content. I'll grant that group content is usually the harder pf the two, but that is because the game designers chose to make it that way. They could have just as easily chosen to make the opposite true. Why are you pretending the developers don't have control over their game? Why are you pretending they can't choose to do something as simple as make a mob's hp 1 billion, solo or raid boss, if they wanted it to be really hard or make the mob's hp 1 if they wanted to make it incredibly easy? They have total and complete control over the difficulty of each individual aspect of the game and can tweak it how they please. Why are you pretending this isn't true?


Then go beat the raid boss solo, you get the SAME rewards, but it will be a **** of a lot harder.

It was possible in FFXI, people could solo the sky guards, and get the same reward.

IT WAS JUST A **** OF ALOT HARDER.

So there is an INCENTIVE TO GROUP, it makes it easier, but the solo aspect is STILL THERE if you are that kind of person who just wants to do it by themselves. It just won't be as easy as doing it in a group, and it will take a whole lot more time. That's fine by just about everyone.

ONLY IMPORTANT POINT HERE :

I think what people are concerned with is that it will be the case where you can solo to the best items and levels of the game, at the same rate and time spent as those who group.

/END IMPORTANT POINT

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#33 Jul 25 2009 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Then go beat the raid boss solo, you get the SAME rewards, but it will be a **** of a lot harder.

It was possible in FFXI, people could solo the sky guards, and get the same reward.

IT WAS JUST A **** OF ALOT HARDER.

I'm not certain what point you think you have made. Are you trying to refute what you quote me saying? Because you example very much seems to corroborate my point--that solo can be made to be harder than group play.
Shazaamemt wrote:
So there is an INCENTIVE TO GROUP, it makes it easier, but the solo aspect is STILL THERE if you are that kind of person who just wants to do it by themselves. It just won't be as easy as doing it in a group, and it will take a whole lot more time. That's fine by just about everyone.

But you're wrong... the solo aspect isn't always there. Most end game bosses in other MMORPGs aren't soloable, and even in FFXI you had to be a few specific classes to solo those group bosses. It also isn't fine by everyone, as Maldavian is asserting that any form of solo is easier than group play and thus no one should group to ever take on a boss that was soloable.
Shazaamemt wrote:
ONLY IMPORTANT POINT HERE :

I think what people are concerned with is that it will be the case where you can solo to the best items and levels of the game, at the same rate and time spent as those who group.

/END IMPORTANT POINT

Unfortunately your "ONLY IMPORTANT POINT HERE," is wrong, because people have already explicitly stated their concern. Maldavian's concern is that if you allow people to obtain rewards equivalent to those found in group play that they will be able to obtain them more easily than in group play.

Edited, Jul 26th 2009 2:45am by Allegory
#34 Jul 26 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Maldavian's concern is that if you allow people to obtain rewards equivalent to those found in group play that they will be able to obtain them more easily than in group play.


And that concern is in vain. Which is what some of us are trying to explain to Maldavian. There is not a possibility of that happening. It's a crazy thought. There will never be solo rewards as great as group rewards. The rewards will scale with the amount of of players invlolved, time put in, and difficulty. Which is why I said, "Solo does not mean being able to take on the same monster a 6 man party can...". Those monsters that have that great equipment will take a group/alliance which equals more time, it will be a suicide mission for a solo player. This gives Solo players incentive to get involved in some end game activities which will open up more roads for them to take if they choose to.
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