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You must wait to finish this quest.Follow

#1 Jul 28 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, just as the Subject reads, is it just me or is everyone sick of waiting for Japanese Midnight in order to finish some quests and missions?
Would FFXIV not be better with out that? Sure some quests seem like waiting can work, but make it like an hour, or zone and come back. Waiting till Japanese midnight is always a pain the ****. You get really into a set of missions, you worked really hard to get people together, you finish one mission then BAM! wait till Japanese midnight.... Have fun getting all those people back together HA!......
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#2 Jul 28 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
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I agree. There's really no point for this. First of all, if you have to have a wait time to finish a quest make it relate to the in game time system. Second, why even have the wait time at all? What purpose does it serve exactly?
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#3 Jul 28 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I agree. There's really no point for this. First of all, if you have to have a wait time to finish a quest make it relate to the in game time system. Second, why even have the wait time at all? What purpose does it serve exactly?


Make the story stretch longer, even if it is only a couple days.
#4 Jul 28 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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Make the story stretch longer, even if it is only a couple days.


Exactly, especially with new material some stuff they don't want people to run through in 30 minutes and be done with it. The timer just stretches the content even if its just for a day, and also lets casual or slower players keep pace with the hardcore players. Hardcore player might do it in 30mins and have to wait, while the casual player does it maybe 12 hours after it was released but still only have to wait the same amount of time (Japanese Midnight), in order to proceed further.
#5 Jul 28 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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It would at least be more immersive if it was "wait 1 ingame day / week / w/e" rather then some arbitrary real life time.
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#6 Jul 28 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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This is probably the one timesink I would like SE to avoid at all costs. It is so simple of a technique that elongates a quest/event but it does the one thing a timesink should not do... impede on the direct enjoyment of the game for ALL players. I am ok with it on something like raiding because the other reasons you have it is to mitigate the amount of certain items coming in at one time. But other than that make a wait time only one game day at most. No more week long waits just because you didn't get into some event just before conquest tally or the like. You should not be punished for doing a quest because of the time you do it.
#7 Jul 28 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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You can not say it stretches the content and believe that. -.-

Since you are not playing during your wait for Japanese midnight it does not make the content any longer, just the time you are allowed to finish it. Also, sure some people can fish it right away, but what about others that join months even years after, why do they have to wait?
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#8 Jul 28 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Default
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Also, sure some people can fish it right away, but what about others that join months even years after, why do they have to wait?


Because if one person has to wait then everybody should have to wait. I would rather it be a reason you have to wait and based on game time even if it the game time you have to wait is equalivent to a real life day. It Stretches or makes the time needed to complete the content longer, whatever words you want to use. I am perfectly fine with this as long as everything doesn't have a timer, and just certain things does. Like not every mission but maybe a few of them, kind of like ffxi has it now. Rather you use real life time or game time they can make the time needed to wait equalivent to JP midnight anyway if they wanted to.
#9 Jul 28 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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In actuality, it is barely stretching the content at all though. This is the point I was trying to make, albeit not too clearly. Obviously there are exclusions such as Dynamis or similar events in FFXI. However, the wait time has a purpose there. Wait times for progressing through a mission storyline just seems like an inconvenience. I think a hardcore player has every right to outpace a casual player. They are putting the hours in to stay ahead of the game, thus they deserve to be able to proceed sooner for their effort. I am a casual player myself and have no problem with that kind of system. I prefer it in fact, because then I can learn from hardcore players what mistakes not to make when finally reaching the content myself.
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#10 Jul 28 2009 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
In actuality, it is barely stretching the content at all though. This is the point I was trying to make, albeit not too clearly. Obviously there are exclusions such as Dynamis or similar events in FFXI. However, the wait time has a purpose there. Wait times for progressing through a mission storyline just seems like an inconvenience. I think a hardcore player has every right to outpace a casual player. They are putting the hours in to stay ahead of the game, thus they deserve to be able to proceed sooner for their effort. I am a casual player myself and have no problem with that kind of system. I prefer it in fact, because then I can learn from hardcore players what mistakes not to make when finally reaching the content myself.


I am an hardcore player and I think you can outpace casual players enough in endgame content. Storyline (missions) is probally the most important thing to SE, as they put a lot of pride in cutscenes and storylines, and I think thats one aspect that they make it for all players. They try to balance it out so all players can enjoy these amazing storylines at the same pace and people are not left far behind. I am hardcore and I would like to outpace casual players also but maybe not in every aspect of the game, and I have no problem with putting timers in the middle of storyline content. As long as the timer makes sense like you have to wait until a certain time for the meeting to begin or something. It may not be stretching the content but it is stretching the time needed to complete the mission. If you could have finished in 15 minutes and instead you had to wait a day so you finished in 1 day and 15 minutes, then it stretched or took you longer to complete the task. Even if the extra time was just spent waiting or doing other things.
#11 Jul 28 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand what you're saying, but a wait time like Japanese midnight is not going to help casual players keep pace with hardcore players at all. Hardcore players are still going to reach the content sooner and proceed through the following content quicker. If anything, it creates a larger gap between casual and hardcore.

I'm very glad that SE values their storylines and that was one of the reasons I loved FFXI. But, every time I came to one of these wait til Japanese midnight moments I was always dissapointed because I wanted to keep progressing through the story right then while it was fresh in my mind.
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#12 Jul 29 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Default
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I understand what you're saying, but a wait time like Japanese midnight is not going to help casual players keep pace with hardcore players at all. Hardcore players are still going to reach the content sooner and proceed through the following content quicker. If anything, it creates a larger gap between casual and hardcore.


The reason why it doesn't create a larger gap is because the hardcore player will eventually run out of content. The casual player can keep up pace with the timers in place, and the only person it doesn't help is the people that will join and play the game at a later date.

Quote:
I'm very glad that SE values their storylines and that was one of the reasons I loved FFXI. But, every time I came to one of these wait til Japanese midnight moments I was always dissapointed because I wanted to keep progressing through the story right then while it was fresh in my mind.


I understand, it is very frustrating when you have to wait in order to proceed. If you forget the storyline in the day that you had to wait, then it must not have been a good storyline.

In a way the timers also makes the community become more helping. If new content was released and had no timers, then people will run through it and be done with it. If new content comes out with timers, then some people will get to the timer and just help others because that person cannot proceed anyway. Also timers in new content can also be rewarding. Instead of rushing through these missions in 30 minutes, we have to wait so lets go out and explore these new areas while we wait. With so many other things to do in an mmo, I don't see a problem with timers.
#13 Jul 29 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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You know, it reminds me an awful lot of going out to a bar and ordering a drink. Quite a few bars will stretch their liquor out by "watering it down". This is a lot like that, watering down the story just for the sake of... Honestly I don't even know any more. People throw around that 'time sink' phrase without thinking about what it means.

Let me ask you this: How many people have actually quit FFXI, and I mean really quit never to return, because they.. Finished all the content? There is a guy who has finished every conceivable mission and has all jobs at 75 and even he still plays and trolls the forums. The time sinks don't keep people here, they just frustrate people who already are here because they love this game more than any other.

Give enough variety of things to be and things to do such as there is in FFXI, but relax some of the more strict things that caused their playerbase to peak at 500k, and there isn't going to be a problem with repeat customers.

Make a carbon copy of XI complete with matching time sinks and equal lack of consideration for the playerbase in general, and they won't end up with much more of a following than they have with XI.
#14 Jul 29 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Default
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You know, it reminds me an awful lot of going out to a bar and ordering a drink. Quite a few bars will stretch their liquor out by "watering it down". This is a lot like that, watering down the story just for the sake of... Honestly I don't even know any more. People throw around that 'time sink' phrase without thinking about what it means.


Waiting a day for a meeting to take place, and adding water to alcohol is two completely different things. Adding water is being cheap with the alcohol supply. Adding a day long time wait in order for an meeting to take place, actually makes sense within the story. Its a difference between being cheap, and having a cutscene that needs a certain time to have the proper people available for the meeting within the cutscene. I am ok with these timers, as long as they make sense and is for a reason within the game. Like the sam quest taking time to finish the sword makes sense.

Quote:
Let me ask you this: How many people have actually quit FFXI, and I mean really quit never to return, because they.. Finished all the content? There is a guy who has finished every conceivable mission and has all jobs at 75 and even he still plays and trolls the forums. The time sinks don't keep people here, they just frustrate people who already are here because they love this game more than any other.


Its not about finishing the content, but it is about finishing the content you care about. Let me ask you this: How many people do everything possible in single player games? Most people do what they want to do and don't bother with many side quests or things that is not required. Its more about finishing the content that is important to you, not every piece of content that is added is for everyone. Some people will not care for some content and some people will care for the content.

You can finish the content that you care about, and this is where timesinks come in at. Many people have quit maybe not because they have finished everything you can possibly do, but they have finished everything they care about doing. Every job, every quest, and every piece of content is not for everyone, it is for the people that enjoy and want to do them.

Quote:
Give enough variety of things to be and things to do such as there is in FFXI, but relax some of the more strict things that caused their playerbase to peak at 500k, and there isn't going to be a problem with repeat customers.

Make a carbon copy of XI complete with matching time sinks and equal lack of consideration for the playerbase in general, and they won't end up with much more of a following than they have with XI.


Every game has "timesinks" or obstacles in the way, and this doesn't make it a carbon copy of FFXI. If it has some things that FFXI has this doesn't make it a carbon copy of FFXI. It is a totally different game, but it is still an mmo that is expected to have a long life span. Look forward to some "timesinks" or obstacles because they will be their in some shape or form. As you said with so many things to do in an mmo, waiting a day shouldn't be much of an obstacle at all.
#15 Jul 29 2009 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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:blink:

The timesink came first, the story was structured to excuse it.

There's a difference between "content that takes time" and "content that has been artificially extended by the developer intentionally". Whatever you particularly want to label that, is up to you. Whether you want to tolerate it, is also up to you. But you need to be able to recognize the difference between you playing the game and the game playing you.

Just because they managed to find an excuse for that watered down nonsense, doesn't mean it's not atrocious laziness. It's just atrocious laziness with a good plot.




Edited, Jul 30th 2009 1:51am by Zemzelette
#16 Jul 30 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Default
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I really don't mind waiting a day to continue a quest line. As long as the quest line has nice cutscenes, is well thought out, and is a fundamentally important aspect of the storyline. (Like most of the 'wait-a-day quests in FFXI were).

If I have a variety of gameplay options available to me, then I don't mind being put on hold for a day. I kinda like it actually, it prevents people from storming through the brand new missions in a few hours, and lets the story sink in.

If it was 'you must wait to turn in 3 rabbit hides', then I would be ********* but waiting a day after beating a relatively hard boss to continue really encourages more 'pick-up groups' and, therefore, encourages the social aspect of a MMO.

If you are part of a static group, then it gives a nice breather time between the missions. Believe it or not, just because someone joins a static group or linkshell/guild to get farther in the game, it doesn't mean they want to burn through content.
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#17HocusP, Posted: Jul 30 2009 at 6:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why do you have to be in an constant struggle with the game? Its is not that serious, either go do something else within the game or go play something else. Saying the game is "playing you", because you have to wait a day to continue is over exaggerating. Timesinks (I call them obstacles) will be in FFXIV in some shape or form, so you should just get use to them. The game doesn't force you to play and pay for their game, so the game is not "playing you", there are tons of options out their and you choose to play it. I was just stating some positives of the timers (like other people), because some people was asking what purpose or what good can timers do.
#18 Jul 30 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Because it's a lazy development trick.

Whether or not that irritates you (as it does me) or it's something you can be sufficiently distracted from by cutscenes (as shazaamemt stated) is really non-issue. It's not a matter of like, it's a matter of being able to call a corporation on cutting corners. So "If you don't like it, go play something else" is pointless handwaving.

It's not something to held up as a shining example, but accepted begrudgingly if at all. It's an excuseable practice in the low-budget/no-budget MMOs that invented it, but it's been gradually phased out in modern MMOs as production values have gone up. A multi-billion dollar corporation has absolutely no excuse for that kind of behavior in this day and age.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 11:29am by Zemzelette
#19HocusP, Posted: Jul 30 2009 at 9:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There is so many things to do in an mmo, it is barely an obstacle. If it cause so much trouble for you, then you don't have to play and pay for the game. You might not like how the company operates, and that is perfectly fine. The company has done perfectly fine this long, and every game is not for everyone. Some people will like the game and some people will hate it. The ones that end up hating it usually just don't play the game, instead of paying to play it and complaining every second of the way.
#20 Jul 30 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
I don't see how its being lazy, and its far from a trick.

I don't see how you can not see it as lazy. Instead of designing 3 hours of content a developer makes a financial decision that it is cheaper to produce 30 minutes of content and a 2 and a half hour wait. It's the same reason developers reuse monster models. It's cheaper to repaint a crab 5 times over than it is to produce 5 new monster models.



HocusP wrote:
Their are tons of options out there, why not play a game that you like how the company operates.

Because people can like and dislike individual aspects of a game. This also isn't a matter of taste.

It's not that some people like a game that arbitrarily wastes your time to save money and some don't. It is always better for a game to not waste a player's time. Always. This is about pushing for progress in game design.
#21 Jul 30 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I keep seeing the term 'pay for it' come up, ... Well fine how about this, I'm paying for the game so let me finish the **** quest when I want.
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#22 Jul 30 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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i don't mean to be a d*ck hocusp but get off the crack, waiting to finish a quest serves NO purpose in trivial quests or many main ones as well, ur just trolling around with a few false claims that sound reasonable to people who don't understand. Hard core players usually play with other hard core players and finish story in a week, casual play with casual and finish story in a month, adding in a wait time will not "enhance a story" at all or have more casual players play with hard core players. You're right when u say waiting time for the SAM flag quest makes sense, but does it serve a justifiable purpose? NO. it just takes that much longer for me to level SAM up. Time restrictions should only be implemented if you must do something in the mean time such as gain back xp from ur last dyna adventure or some other thing that is reasonable. What you were trying to elaborate on was so "everyone has to wait" to make that successful at all SE would release a quest, wait a week, have a bunch of people do it, casual and hard core players together, release another one, and so on and so fourth, however if this was done NOTHING WOULD GET DONE THUS THEY DIDN'T PUT IT IN. You made ur point so stop beating a dead horse.
#23 Jul 30 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hn.

That basically covers what I wanted to say.
Thank you Allegory.


Edited, Jul 30th 2009 2:40pm by Zemzelette
#24HocusP, Posted: Jul 30 2009 at 11:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Everything in the game doesn't have to serve a justified purpose. It takes you one day longer to start leveling sam, get over it they don't make the game just for you. If you can't wait one day, then the timers might do more good to you then bad. Take a break, go do something else and get back at it the next day, it is not that serious. Some of you sound like the people that get mad when they have a maintence, it is not that serious, one day will not kill you. They don't even have timers on a lot of missions, it is just a few of them.
#25 Jul 30 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP, you are a troll... you seem to troll alot of the threads and don't bring anything to the table that is relevant. Every idea to you, seems like a bad idea... Thus meaning you want everything to stay the same and only ideas that are out right now are what should be used? Am I right?
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#26HocusP, Posted: Jul 30 2009 at 12:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It just seems like everyone that disagrees with you is a troll, I am not the only person here that is fine with some timers. Having a different opinion and being a troll is two very different things. Yes I want some things the same but then again it is another FF mmo, and still has the FF name, but timers has nothing to do with that. I also want a lot of things different like subjobs (hopefully gone but their in spirit), jobs period, storyline, areas, endgame content, spells, avatars, and that doesn't mean I have to agree with your ideas. You are a person that thinks if a person doesn't agree with your vision for the game then he is a troll? Am I right?
#27 Jul 30 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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No, Hocus you are a Troll, you bring nothing relevant to the thread, you just bash and keep saying the same thing everyone else has said with no reasons. This is not the first thread I have seen you trolling in either

Also, Timers are important, all the small things about a game are what make it great. If people are bothered by too many smaller issues they will not play the game. Yes, no one will quit the game if they do not fix the timers, but if you add that to a pile of smaller issues the people will go away.
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#28 Jul 30 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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ToorimaHades wrote:
No, Hocus you are a Troll, you bring nothing relevant to the thread, you just bash and keep saying the same thing everyone else has said with no reasons. This is not the first thread I have seen you trolling in either

But I believe in order to be a troll Hocus must be deliberately trying to inflame, which he is not. What Hocus is saying isn't trolling; it's just very poorly supported.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 4:57pm by Allegory
#29 Jul 30 2009 at 11:20 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I don't see how you can not see it as lazy. Instead of designing 3 hours of content a developer makes a financial decision that it is cheaper to produce 30 minutes of content and a 2 and a half hour wait. It's the same reason developers reuse monster models. It's cheaper to repaint a crab 5 times over than it is to produce 5 new monster models.


I agree that it would be lazy and just a basic timesink if timers were required for the most basic quests. However, I think this conversation refers specifically to the 'timer missions' in FFXI. There are very few quests that require a 'break' in order to continue on, and in most situations, I find myself liking the breaks. (Retrospectively speaking of course, it was annoying when I was 'in the moment').

It lets the story breathe, and prevents players from 'HAVING' to skip through the cutscenes as fast as possible to catch up to the group ready to attempt the next mission. Without a timer, I know I might have skipped many cutscenes and story content just to keep up with others, as opposed to knowing I had the time to savor the story content as I pleased.

Allegory, you often argue about content vs playtime, but doesn't storyline count as content? Do cutscenes count as content? Personally I think they do, yet one player can get 1 minute out of the same content that another player can get ten times as much out of.

Slowing down the pace of the MAJOR storyline aspects of the game is fine to me, waiting a day to turn in a basic quest isn't.


Edited, Jul 31st 2009 3:24am by Shazaamemt
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#30HocusP, Posted: Jul 31 2009 at 5:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Learn the definition of a "troll" before you use it. Different opinions and purposely flaming a thread with no interest in the topic is two different things. People make threads to hear everyone's opinion about a certain subject. They don't make threads just to hear the people that completely agree with them. They also want to hear people that do not, and that is what a discussion is called. It wouldn't be much of an discussion if everyone completely agreed with everyone else.
#31 Jul 31 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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So, the more the quest matters, the less lazy it is?

The reason you had more intentional inflation on missions and not simple quests, is because they could guarantee more people would be doing a mission. This would also be why you found it more often on quests to unlock jobs than regular go-fetch quests.

This isn't because they were concerned for your narrative well being, but they wanted to inflate content for as many people as possible with the least amount of effort.

It's fine if you could find a silver lining, I applaud your positive perspective. But your deluding yourself if you continue to believe SE was doing you some kind of favor.
#32 Jul 31 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Default
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It's fine if you could find a silver lining, I applaud your positive perspective. But your deluding yourself if you continue to believe SE was doing you some kind of favor.


Its not about doing a favor for anyone. We are not saying, please put a timer on every mission, we are just saying we are perfectly fine with them being there. Then we are saying how the timers were actually positive in some ways.

I'm not looking for a favor from SE. If the timers are not there then i'm fine with that, and if timers are their then i'm perfectly fine with that also. We was just saying that the timers could be positive in a few ways, and not all negative. For whatever reason they are added, I don't see it as being lazy because its mostly only on the MAJOR storyline aspect. I believe with a timer or not they will still have the same amount of missions and storyline content. I don't see timers as a content replacement, I see timers as a break and i'm perfectly fine with that.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 12:26pm by HocusP
#33 Jul 31 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm all for you boys finding some good in all of this.
I'm afraid if you retread that point again, I'll have to ignore it, because I've repeated myself quite a few times now.

Quote:
I believe with a timer or not they will still have the same amount of missions and storyline content.


From a developer's perspective adding inflated content is a nonsensical move without the underlying motivation to add enough content to reach a certain point. If it was going to be the same content regardless, they wouldn't have bothered inflating it to begin with.




Edited, Jul 31st 2009 1:07pm by Zemzelette
#34HocusP, Posted: Jul 31 2009 at 1:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Maybe they not looking at it as inflating the content, and is looking at it as putting a mandatory break in and letting the story sink in. Making sure players don't have to rush but can enjoy the cutscenes and all the effort they put in (as someone else stated).
#35 Jul 31 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Its not like you can just add a mission in between the timers, because the storyline has to make sense


I think it would be rather easy to add things inbetween. It would make the story seem less linear for one if you had multiple plots going on and would make the "wait <x> ingame days" more tolerable for the player.

I mean, in terms of the current missions and story it does seem like it is not possible to do. But that is because it is an existing story that is setup to be as it is.

With a new story and new mission / quest line it would be easy to add in subplots or multiple plots to the missions to add to immersion.
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#36 Jul 31 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've already addressed the first point.

As for the second point.

If SE felt that giving you an intellectual time-out was the way to handle a storyline: Why does this practice appear on quests that have little storyline to speak of? Why does it occur at points in the quest that aren't followed by additional storyline progression? Why doesn't it occur on all quests that have a great deal of storyline?

Inflation can't exist for storyline reasons; because storyline exists outside of inflation, and inflation outside of storyline.

No, no, this not your cue to extol that in your hearts of hearts you know SE was acting with only the purest intentions, while proceeding to pluck another devil's advocate argument from the air. I can recognize we just can't see eye to eye on this. We'll simply have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.




Edited, Jul 31st 2009 9:12pm by Zemzelette
#37 Jul 31 2009 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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This feature doesn't bother me in principle, but it really sucks when you have to go some place out of the way or difficult to get to, THEN you have to wait. Which means, you either leave and have to make the whole trek again, or you do nothing and just wait until the timer is up.

Otherwise it doesn't really bother me.
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#38 Jul 31 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
We'll simply have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.


Agreed.

Quote:
There are very few quests that require a 'break' in order to continue on


Very Few, it does not happen often.

As for the storyline and why I think it occurs on some missions, I have already stated. Then again it comes down to i'm perfectly fine with it and you are not (which is just a matter of different opinions, noone is wrong).

#39 Jul 31 2009 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
Make the story stretch longer, even if it is only a couple days.


Exactly, especially with new material some stuff they don't want people to run through in 30 minutes and be done with it. The timer just stretches the content even if its just for a day, and also lets casual or slower players keep pace with the hardcore players. Hardcore player might do it in 30mins and have to wait, while the casual player does it maybe 12 hours after it was released but still only have to wait the same amount of time (Japanese Midnight), in order to proceed further.


It does nothing to let casual or slower players "keep pace" with the hardcore players. Nothing at all. It's strictly a mechanic to keep the hardcore players from blasting through everything in one session. It's a lame content extender that would ideally not make its way into FFXIV. It works for active content to keep people from repeating it and milking it for everything they want and then getting bored and canceling their subscriptions. It doesn't work for story elements and basic quests.
#40 Aug 01 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

It does nothing to let casual or slower players "keep pace" with the hardcore players. Nothing at all. It's strictly a mechanic to keep the hardcore players from blasting through everything in one session.


It does allow the hardcore to take a breather though. As long as there is enough other content to enjoy then I don't care about waiting until my next log-in to allow the storyline to proceed.

If we are going to argue about technical (by that I mean purely the real nuts-and-bolts), then it would probably be a bit demanding on servers to show all those cutscenes at one time. Unless they are saved on the player-end, which they probably will be. (though that will lead to longer download times and promote more player *********

Pretty much, no matter how SE handles the game, there is going to be plenty of whining and ********* MMO players are a prickly bunch (as any person would be when they have to pay a monthly fee to get something that doesn't completely please them, and no fair game could possibly please everyone).

Quote:
It works for active content to keep people from repeating it and milking it for everything they want and then getting bored and canceling their subscriptions. It doesn't work for story elements and basic quests.


Well, for FFXI the storyline WAS the active content for a large amount of players. I agree that if there are instanced 'dungeons and raids' like WoW, then storyline should be exempt from the wait like basic quests. But that is just not how FFXI played, and given the (quite imaginary) choice between waiting a day for some awesome cutscenes and storyline content (FFXI-style) VS the WoW lack of cutscenes and storyline with timers on 'dungeons and raids', well... I have to pick the FFXI style there.

The choice isn't real, but given that that WoW and FFXI are 2 MMOs that are actually in existence with differing gameplay, I prefer to have a good storyline and cutscenes that force me to wait a day in order to continue than repeat the same content with a timer. Granted, both can be seen as time-extensions to keep the 'hardcore' from burning through the content and quitting. I just prefer the way it was handled in FFXI. At least there was a storyline reason you had to wait a day, as opposed to just being unable to enter an area because it was unexplainably locked when you tried to re-enter.

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#41 Aug 01 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:

It does nothing to let casual or slower players "keep pace" with the hardcore players. Nothing at all. It's strictly a mechanic to keep the hardcore players from blasting through everything in one session.


It does allow the hardcore to take a breather though. As long as there is enough other content to enjoy then I don't care about waiting until my next log-in to allow the storyline to proceed.


Nothing is stopping players from taking a breather when they decide they need/want a breather. It doesn't need to be forced.

Quote:
If we are going to argue about technical (by that I mean purely the real nuts-and-bolts), then it would probably be a bit demanding on servers to show all those cutscenes at one time. Unless they are saved on the player-end, which they probably will be. (though that will lead to longer download times and promote more player *****************

They're already stored client side. The servers don't feed the cutscenes.

Quote:
Quote:
It works for active content to keep people from repeating it and milking it for everything they want and then getting bored and canceling their subscriptions. It doesn't work for story elements and basic quests.


Well, for FFXI the storyline WAS the active content for a large amount of players. I agree that if there are instanced 'dungeons and raids' like WoW, then storyline should be exempt from the wait like basic quests. But that is just not how FFXI played, and given the (quite imaginary) choice between waiting a day for some awesome cutscenes and storyline content (FFXI-style) VS the WoW lack of cutscenes and storyline with timers on 'dungeons and raids', well... I have to pick the FFXI style there.


Active content is content where you're playing the game, like Dynamis or EInherjar or Assault or any of the other myriad active events in FFXI. The missions and such didn't need to be tied to forced waits.

[quote]The choice isn't real, but given that that WoW and FFXI are 2 MMOs that are actually in existence with differing gameplay, I prefer to have a good storyline and cutscenes that force me to wait a day in order to continue than repeat the same content with a timer. Granted, both can be seen as time-extensions to keep the 'hardcore' from burning through the content and quitting. I just prefer the way it was handled in FFXI. At least there was a storyline reason you had to wait a day, as opposed to just being unable to enter an area because it was unexplainably locked when you tried to re-enter.


You're missing the obvious: great story without the waits. Best of both worlds. Huzzah!
#42HocusP, Posted: Aug 01 2009 at 7:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why doesn't it need to be forced. Yes, something is stopping players from taking a breather and it is called their group and static (or ls members). If you could solo every mission then yea you could go at your own pace, but I don't see this happening. When you need a group to proceed then you either rush like them and skip cutscenes or get replaced. With a timer coming up, their is no rush because everyone has to stop anyway so you can enjoy your cutscenes without fear of getting replaced.
#43 Aug 01 2009 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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SE has a hard-on for injecting an inorganic sense of virtue in this game where the hindrance/annoyances of waiting extended periods of time to complete something is treated as a feature. Many JP development companies are only just getting a handle on western tastes and expectations (one of the biggest players being Capcom).

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 12:28pm by baltz
#44 Aug 01 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
I would like to let the story sink in and actually enjoy the cutscenes, rather then rushing through every cutscene just to keep pace with my hardcore group. A mandatory wait lets me rush through the content and enjoy it at the sametime, which is the best of both worlds for me.


You want to be 'hardcore', but you want artificial barriers in place to prevent anyone from being more 'hardcore' than you?
#45 Aug 01 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You want to be 'hardcore', but you want artificial barriers in place to prevent anyone from being more 'hardcore' than you?


I don't care if someone is more hardcore then me, more power to them. I just like to enjoy the cutscenes and is perfectly fine with a mandatory wait. If their is no wait in the storyline then that is ok too, but if there is then I'm perfectly fine with it. It has some positives and that is the main point of my post.

I won't have all jobs leveled up but I don't want them to put limits on the amount of jobs you can level up either. I probally won't have a craft leveled but I don't want them to take crafts out the game. It has absolutely nothing to do with a person being more hardcore then me. It has something to do with the positives that comes along with it and with so many things to do in an mmo its not even a problem to me.

I don't even see what would make that person more hardcore then me to begin with. Is it because I watched the cutscenes and he skipped them? When new content is released their is always a race to be the first person or group (at least on your server) to do something (rather that be a bcnm or a new area), and I enjoy this. Timers just make it more interesting, and I can enjoy the cutscenes rather then skipping them. Whether that timer be Jp midnight or a game time, I will be right there ready to go with everybody else. The only difference is I actually got to enjoy the cutscenes and still be right there, rather then having to skip them.

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 12:24pm by HocusP
#46 Aug 01 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Your missing the point: great story with the wait. Best of both worlds for some hardcore players. I would like to let the story sink in and actually enjoy the cutscenes, rather then rushing through every cutscene just to keep pace with my hardcore group


If you cannot skip past a cutscene (which we do not know if they will be in the game for one) then why impose a wait if your group knows you have to sit through it?

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Why doesn't it need to be forced.


Well, from a gamer sense it is simple. If forced to do something, even something that they would normally do (in this case, take a breather) the player base often gets frustrated at having to do it.

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A mandatory wait lets me rush through the content and enjoy it at the sametime


I don't particularly get this. You want to rush through a section of the content then during your imposed wait enjoy it?

What keeps you from enjoying the content if you do 2-3x more? I mean, lets be honest here, even the best video game storyline / cutscene is still a relatively small section of video or dialog. You can enjoy movies / books easy enough without limiting youself to 5 minute sections / 10 pages, why is video game content any different?
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#47 Aug 01 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Default
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I don't particularly get this. You want to rush through a section of the content then during your imposed wait enjoy it?


No I will just quote someone else right here.

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It lets the story breathe, and prevents players from 'HAVING' to skip through the cutscenes as fast as possible to catch up to the group ready to attempt the next mission. Without a timer, I know I might have skipped many cutscenes and story content just to keep up with others, as opposed to knowing I had the time to savor the story content as I pleased.


So back to your statement, it allows you to still move at a fast pace (or rush) with your group but you can still watch and enjoy the cutscenes because your group and you know, you have a wait coming up anyway. It does not mean rush then enjoy it while your waiting, that is way off.

Quote:
Well, from a gamer sense it is simple. If forced to do something, even something that they would normally do (in this case, take a breather) the player base often gets frustrated at having to do it.


The playerbase gets frustrated regardless, if it wasn't a wait then it will be about drop rates or many other things. The playerbase usually look at everything at their own point of view. Same as when they want everything nerfed or upgraded, its usually because they are thinking "how can it help me", instead of thinking "how can it help the game as a whole". Even in real life, humans just usually have this me,me,me attitude when in reality the world or game does not revolve around you, but that is another issue for another day.

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If you cannot skip past a cutscene (which we do not know if they will be in the game for one) then why impose a wait if your group knows you have to sit through it?


Many cutscenes is skippable, and will probally be skippable. Maybe not many cutscenes at like a bcnm type area right before the fight but mostly the cutscenes in town will probally be skippable.

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You can enjoy movies / books easy enough without limiting youself to 5 minute sections / 10 pages, why is video game content any different?


In a book or movie you don't need other people in order to proceed to the next chapter.

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 12:54pm by HocusP
#48 Aug 01 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
So back to your statement, it allows you to still move at a fast pace (or rush) with your group but you can still watch and enjoy the cutscenes because your group and you know, you have a wait coming up anyway. It does not mean rush then enjoy it while your waiting, that is way off.

Many cutscenes is skippable, and will probally be skippable. Maybe not many cutscenes at like a bcnm type area right before the fight but mostly the cutscenes in town will probally be skippable.


So, if given the choice between skippable cutscenes and a wait or no wait and non-skippable cutscenes, which would you chose?

Personally, i think the idea of immersion is nice. If i just did some key recon mission and a group of people need to review the intel so i need to wait an ingame day that is fine. I just think that there should be some subplot or other mission to carry you through rather than a "hurry up and wait" methodology. Immersion is great, but should not overshadow making the game accesible and enjoyable. It is the developers job to balance these things.

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The playerbase gets frustrated regardless, if it wasn't a wait then it will be about drop rates or many other things.


No game is perfect, but by saying that a player base will get frustrated is a justification to not trying to make the game as accesible and as least frustrating as possible is simply not a good tactic.

Games which go by the mantra of "we (the dev's) want to have this happen, if you don't like it well tough" are very much a thing of the past. Communication between player base and developer is a critical component to a MMO's success. It is not neccessarily the need for the Devs to coddle their playerbase, but to listen and address important issues.

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In a book or movie you don't need other people in order to proceed to the next chapter.


You ever watch a DVD with a date? I have to pause movies alot for either myself or my wife to take care of things (phone, bathroom, etc).

Joke aside, the point was it does not cheapen the story by watching more of it. Your biggest concern it seems is that you will have to skip cutscenes inorder to expedite your group play. I think that is a bad reason to implement waits as you can simply make cutscenes both unskippable and playable for the entire party - that way everyone has to sit through them regardless.

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#49 Aug 01 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I coordinated a LS group that was behind on their nation missions (Sandy, Windy, Bastok) and we all wanted to get them all done. It was a great help to me to have these mandatory breaks even as we were trying to complete them all as soon as possible. I didn't even mind having to wait a day to have my Shura+1 uncursed. The only time I specifically recall being frustrated by the wait were the SAM quests in Norg.

Otherwise I like it when the mission content forces you to take a break. Why? Because I don't actually enjoy the idea of a 10-hour mission marathon like I used to, but there are some people who do, and frankly there are many who will do it even if they don't enjoy it just to go ahead and get it done. Odds are, you will be in a group with them, maybe even a static, and then you have to choose between sucking it up and getting it done as a group, or calling it a day when you feel like it and getting left behind.

If each mission were to take an average of a couple of hours, I wouldn't mind in the least if I had to wait a day between each of them.
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#50 Aug 01 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Default
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You ever watch a DVD with a date? I have to pause movies alot for either myself or my wife to take care of things (phone, bathroom, etc).

Joke aside, the point was it does not cheapen the story by watching more of it. Your biggest concern it seems is that you will have to skip cutscenes inorder to expedite your group play. I think that is a bad reason to implement waits as you can simply make cutscenes both unskippable and playable for the entire party - that way everyone has to sit through them regardless.


Making cutscenes unskippable would just be making the game even more frustrating for the people that don't want to watch every single cutscene. Making cutscenes playable through the entire party would not do anything also, people will just not be in a party until they have to, and just form the party at the fight or whatever. The point was movies and books is a bad comparsion because you don't "need" people to proceed. In a MMO storyline mission you need people to proceed and if they have no timer then they can just replace you and keep going. I don't think thats the onlyreason why timers is implemented in the game. I think its mostly so they control how fast the story comes out (on new content), and because they want timers.

Quote:
Games which go by the mantra of "we (the dev's) want to have this happen, if you don't like it well tough" are very much a thing of the past. Communication between player base and developer is a critical component to a MMO's success. It is not neccessarily the need for the Devs to coddle their playerbase, but to listen and address important issues.


Communication between the developers and the playerbase is a whole other topic. That being said, players have to realize that this is not "their" game and it is not "their" vision for the game. Yes you pay to play the game but once again they do not force anybody to play the game. Listening to players on important issues is fine, but listening and doing everything they say is two different things. I know in WoW (sorry to bring WoW up), Blizzard changes a lot and listens to players a lot but this is two different companies and some of the playerbase don't even like that. That being said I don't even see timers on a few missions even an "important issue" with so many other things to do in an mmo.

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So, if given the choice between skippable cutscenes and a wait or no wait and non-skippable cutscenes, which would you chose?


I would choose it like ffxi has it now. Some skippable cutscenes with a wait in some missions. I am thinking about everyone as a whole and not just myself like most people think. Some people do not like cutscenes and would like the choice to skip some. Some people may be rushing out the door and chose to skip some. People just need to be patient, it is not like your waiting in front of a door not playing until JP midnight. Go do something else and get back at it the next day if you want to.

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Immersion is great, but should not overshadow making the game accesible and enjoyable.


The game is enjoyable and accessible even with a timer on some missions. Just because you can't do every single thing when you want to do it doesn't make the whole game inaccessible. Go do something else, and get back at it when your wait is over like everyone else. If they made you stay there and do nothing but wait until your time is over then yes that would be an issue. But, they don't do that, its no difference then timers on getting salvage gear. Could they just give you your gear when you hand in the materials? Yes, but they don't and you just wait the time and get it.



#51 Aug 01 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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Making cutscenes unskippable would just be making the game even more frustrating for the people that don't want to watch every single cutscene


I think that comes down to a magnitude of frustration there. Does 5 mins of frustration from a cutscene compare to the 1 hour (or more) of frustration from an imposed wait?

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The point was movies and books is a bad comparsion because you don't "need" people to proceed.


It was more directed to the "it cheapens the story / lets the story settle" arguement - because really, it does not impact the story in the least.

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I think its mostly so they control how fast the story comes out (on new content), and because they want timers.


I think that time sinks were implemented to mask a lack of content (this is a wholely generalized view). Like i said before, you can do immersion without having to keeping the playerbase waiting.

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That being said, players have to realize that this is not "their" game and it is not "their" vision for the game


I agree, it is not the players game. But if the developers do not listen to their players, they will lose players.

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I know in WoW (sorry to bring WoW up), Blizzard changes a lot and listens to players a lot but this is two different companies and some of the playerbase don't even like that.


I will probably be flamed for saying this, but i have always wanted SE to communicate to their player base like blizzard does to theirs. Love em or hate em, they talk to their players on a regular basis and it is rather effective for informing the playerbase.

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Just because you can't do every single thing when you want to do it doesn't make the whole game inaccessible. Go do something else, and get back at it when your wait is over like everyone else.


That is actually the definition of accesiblity - the ability to do what you want, when you want to :P

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But, they don't do that, its no difference then timers on getting salvage gear


Gear timers are there for a vastly different mechanic then storyline timers. In general, gear based timers are there so that people cannot chain farm for items. Story base timers are either there for immersion or there to drag out the story.

And as i said before, for immersion it is easy enough to add subplots to the quest line to keep things moving along.

Anyway... you seem to want timers for your own reasons. I don't mind them if done properly (for immersion and with adequate filler content involved). We can just leave it at that.
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