Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

You must wait to finish this quest.Follow

#52HocusP, Posted: Aug 01 2009 at 5:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Please no.
#53 Aug 01 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
316 posts
HocusP wrote:


Quote:
I will probably be flamed for saying this, but i have always wanted SE to communicate to their player base like blizzard does to theirs. Love em or hate em, they talk to their players on a regular basis and it is rather effective for informing the playerbase.


Please no.


Go check out forum=10 right now, and scan the topics.

The lead story on the main page is an editorial by the admins complaining about SE not communicating with their playerbase.

Of the 50 non-stickied threads on the first page, 19 (19!!!) of them are about S-E's customer service, and the lack of communication from the company to its playerbase.

This is the first thing that any potential customer who visits this site (an FFXI Premiere Site) to learn about the game is going to see.

Even if S-E philosophically disagrees with regular communication, from a marketing standpoint keeping their current position would be an incredibly poor decision.



Edited, Aug 1st 2009 10:58pm by SEforPrez
#54 Aug 01 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
I will probably be flamed for saying this, but i have always wanted SE to communicate to their player base like blizzard does to theirs. Love em or hate em, they talk to their players on a regular basis and it is rather effective for informing the playerbase.


Please no.


I'm almost curious as to what patently ridiculous argument you'd come up with for why you wouldn't want the company collecting a monthly fee from you to have open dialogue regarding their intentions and plans.

Almost.

Something tells me the intartoobz can't contain the vast amount of retardation you'd pack into a single post.
#55 Aug 01 2009 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
It's a lame content extender that would ideally not make its way into FFXIV.


You don't know if timers will make its way over or not on storyline content.


I said I'd prefer that it didn't, not that it would or wouldn't.

Quote:
Your missing the point: great story with the wait. Best of both worlds for some hardcore players.


Why? Are you 9 years old? Do you need someone else to tell you when to stop and let the story sink in? Or are you big enough now that you can make that choice for yourself?

Quote:
I would like to let the story sink in and actually enjoy the cutscenes, rather then rushing through every cutscene just to keep pace with my hardcore group. A mandatory wait lets me rush through the content and enjoy it at the sametime, which is the best of both worlds for me. With so many other things to do in an mmo, a wait in the major aspect of the game is justified.


Dumb fanboi is dumb.

I was going to read/respond to the rest of your post but frankly, you're an idiot. You're probably one of the worst idiots I've seen around here for a long, long time and that's saying a lot. I very, very rarely just flat out say you're not worth the time to read/respond to due to sheer, unmitigated idiocy, but you're right there man. Right on the cutting edge of stupidity.

Stick to FFXI. You don't need a new game. FFXI obviously has all the crappy mechanics and hand holding you need. Leave the new stuff to people who want to actually enjoy a game, ya?
#56 Aug 02 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
**
424 posts
Quote:


Active content is content where you're playing the game, like Dynamis or EInherjar or Assault or any of the other myriad active events in FFXI. The missions and such didn't need to be tied to forced waits.


This is a terrible flaw in FFXI, but I really wouldn't consider Dynamis and Einherjar to be the best example of active content, and I dont see a 'myriad active events in FFXI'. What I see is endgame or group-level. I see a crappy crafting system that doesn't encourage playtime, a crappy half-assed 'racing game', a crappy half-assed collosium, and.. well, assaults were freaking awesome, so was campaign and besieged.

But I suppose AureliusSir is right as always in saying
Quote:

Dumb fanboi is dumb.


Yep, I am dumb, and my points don't deserve any sort of consideration whatsoever. Thanks for the always contemplative insight that you provide.

Quote:

I was going to read/respond to the rest of your post but frankly, you're an idiot. You're probably one of the worst idiots I've seen around here for a long, long time and that's saying a lot. I very, very rarely just flat out say you're not worth the time to read/respond to due to sheer, unmitigated idiocy, but you're right there man. Right on the cutting edge of stupidity.


Well... you responded there didn't you? Guess I am not the only one sitting on the cutting edge of stupidity. Thanks, it was getting lonely here trying to start a fire with my face.



WAIT... WAS THAT EVEN MY POST? DAMMIT. I don't even know at this point, I just like arguing with Aurelius. Even when we agree.

BTW Aurelius also posted this little gem:

Quote:

You're missing the obvious: great story without the waits. Best of both worlds. Huzzah!


Yeah that would be awesome, and I completely agree. I was just pointing out the fact that I would be willing to wait for a good storyline over having no storyline and no wait.

I thought this thread was more about arguing options from existing MMOs, in the dream MMO there would OBVIOUSLY be good storyline, no wait, and everyone could get to it with work. But that would detract from the reward of getting to the end of the storyline wouldn't it.

Sure, that's good for people who log into the game daily, but it kinda screws everyone who can only play once a week.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 4:55am by Shazaamemt

Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 5:04am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#57 Aug 02 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
Shazaamemt wrote:
Yeah that would be awesome, and I completely agree. I was just pointing out the fact that I would be willing to wait for a good storyline over having no storyline and no wait.


I think that goes without saying. In fact, I think it's sort of a silly point to make based on what the devs have said. They say they want the game to be story driven, so the possible scenario of no story with no wait is just..hey, let's also chime in with how we'd prefer an MMO with a crappy UI over no MMO at all, in case SE decides to ship FFXIV as a standalone game. That way all the bases are covered.

I appreciate that some folks are a bit bored waiting for new info and are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I just think it would be a whole lot more entertaining if they'd come up with well formed arguments that include answers to questions like "Why?" instead of just defending crap because that's all they know.

A person can usually tell when someone is talking out of their ****. HocusP has vocal cords in his colon...of that I'm sure. You don't have to sing in his choir, if you get my meaning.
#58Hyanmen, Posted: Aug 02 2009 at 3:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As long as they don't become the slaves of the players, it's fine.
#59 Aug 02 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
316 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Updates are the way the company interacts with us... there's no need for more than that.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10

That's not the look of a healthy relationship. I hate internet analogies, but you sound like the woman in an abusive marriage who hasn't experienced anything different, and thinks that it's normal for a husband to smack his wife around after a hard day.
#60Hyanmen, Posted: Aug 02 2009 at 4:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It would be nice if SE was faster with their actions, but what does interacting more help in that situation? "Yes, we're aware of the situation, and yes, we're trying to fix it. Sorry for the inconvenience." Truly helpful indeed.
#61 Aug 02 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
**
727 posts
SE is the master of timesinks. They believe that the longer they can stretch out the amount of time required to accomplish even the most simple task, the longer you will keep paying that monthly fee. This is due to the fact that SE really does NOT have any understanding of their non-JP player base. And as they have shown with FFXI, they really don't care to learn. I highly doubt any of SE's methods are going to change just because they're starting up a new game.

They are of a bunch of rich old Boardroom gods who have no interest in learning new tricks.
____________________________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

#62 Aug 02 2009 at 5:20 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
SE is the master of timesinks. They believe that the longer they can stretch out the amount of time required to accomplish even the most simple task, the longer you will keep paying that monthly fee.


They're right, too. Sad but true.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#63 Aug 02 2009 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
If SE does something about the issue it's their way of saying that they're listening. If they don't do anything, well, it's their way of saying that they're not listening.


Nah, there are dozens of ways to interpret them not doing anything. Maybe they're not aware of the problem. Maybe they're aware of the problem but do not appreciate the scope. Maybe they're aware of the problem and are working on a solution. Maybe they are aware of the problem but have no idea how to fix it. Maybe they are aware of the problem but it's actually working as intended. Maybe they're aware of the problem but don't believe that enough people care if they don't fix it. And on and on.


Quote:
It would be nice if SE was faster with their actions, but what does interacting more help in that situation? "Yes, we're aware of the situation, and yes, we're trying to fix it. Sorry for the inconvenience." Truly helpful indeed.


Versus the stuff going on in =10 right now? Uh... it would help a lot. Right now, there are several posts from potential new players on the first page thinking about downloading the XI trial, and you have Sages and other well known posters responding and telling them to stay away due to SE's lack of communication on the recent banning and credit card verification issues.

Any sort of response from SE would have defused the situation almost immediately. Please, explain to us the benefit of silence.



Quote:
If it's such a big problem for some then they can take their money elsewhere. There's no need for SE to be 'sorry' and pamper the players.


There are numerous reports of mass bannings of players accusing them of 'irregular activity' and 'RMT activity'. Players with multiple accounts are being banned for updating both accounts to the same credit card within 24 hours of each other. Neither GMs nor CSRs are authorized to discuss the reasons for the ban, often leaving (former) players in the dark as to why their 6-year-old accounts have been suddenly terminated.

Who in their right mind would refer to giving an explanation to those players as "pampering"?

Quote:
Anyway, how many players got banned in the first place... <1% of the players? That still leaves 99% happy customers. Even if we take everything 'wrong' that SE has done in the past, the massive majority of players don't have any kind of problem with SE's CS.


There's only a handful of Allak posters who have been banned. Again, check out forum=10. Does that look like 99% happy customers to you?
#64Hyanmen, Posted: Aug 02 2009 at 6:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yep. Well, let's specify. Those who got banned are the <1% of the playerbase. The rest are just there to Q_Q even when SE has done nothing to them personally. They just see the threads and start to think of it as the end of the world (Zomg 10 threads about a guy getting banned on the first page!!1 = 10 guys got banned out of 400 000+). Yeah..
#65 Aug 02 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
Why? Are you 9 years old? Do you need someone else to tell you when to stop and let the story sink in? Or are you big enough now that you can make that choice for yourself?


Are you not old enough to comprehend, when you have no waits you have to skip the cutscenes or be replaced by your group. With waits in, your group has to wait regardless so you get to enjoy and watch the cutscenes. You CANNOT just take a break when you NEED other people to proceed, or you fear getting replaced by your ls because you wanted to watch the cutscenes. Stop being an idiot and read and think before you speak. I am going to quote the same person I quoted before because I can relate to this.

Quote:
prevents players from 'HAVING' to skip through the cutscenes as fast as possible to catch up to the group ready to attempt the next mission. Without a timer, I know I might have skipped many cutscenes and story content just to keep up with others, as opposed to knowing I had the time to savor the story content as I pleased.


With waits in I never had to skip cutscenes in order to keep pace with the people (my group) that wanted to skip them. Without waits I did skip a lot of cutscenes in order to keep pace with my group.

Quote:
Stick to FFXI. You don't need a new game. FFXI obviously has all the crappy mechanics and hand holding you need. Leave the new stuff to people who want to actually enjoy a game, ya?


New game same company. You stick to WoW then because you obviously like how blizzard works. If you don't like how SE works, instead of acting like you know they are going to change how their whole operation work, how about you just stick to blizzard. This is SE's next FF mmo, this is not blizzard's next rumored MMO.

Quote:
I highly doubt any of SE's methods are going to change just because they're starting up a new game.


Exactly, new game same company. Either you like it or not you are not forced to play the game. If I personally don't like how a company operates then i'm not going to play the game.

Quote:
If SE does something about the issue it's their way of saying that they're listening. If they don't do anything, well, it's their way of saying that they're not listening. If it's such a big problem for some then they can take their money elsewhere. There's no need for SE to be 'sorry' and pamper the players.


Exactly, players feel like they is owed something because they pay to play the game. This is not like taxes, you are not forced to play and their are millions of options out their for you. People just like to complain, so they rather play a game that they complain about, then to play something they actually like.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 11:32am by HocusP
#66 Aug 02 2009 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
Quote:
Blizzard does what the playerbase wants as much as possible. It's just horrible.


From Ghostcrawler in a community Q&A:

Quote:
Ghostcrawler: Almost all of the top raiding guilds considered the death knight to be overpowered as a tank and the only real option for many of the Ulduar hard modes. While the community isn’t always right about everything, they are right a lot, and in this case we think the evidence is overwhelming.


When you deal with such a hardcore playerbase - the epitome of this being people who get paid to play through content - listening to informed and factual complaints is a smart move.

Quote:
But I don't think it's even necessary to have this kind of open dialogue in the game. What does it change? Nothing. Would be cool I guess for those addicts who feel they need to be treated like kings but in reality it doesn't do much.

Updates are the way the company interacts with us... there's no need for more than that.


You know what i would like, I would like SE to come out and tell us exactly what they wanted for each class, then tell us how they felt we deviated from their original intent. Then I would like them to tell us what their plans were for the class from there.

It is not about being coddled. It is about being informed. It is about feeling like you know where the game is going.
____________________________


#67 Aug 02 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I'm almost curious as to what patently ridiculous argument you'd come up with for why you wouldn't want the company collecting a monthly fee from you to have open dialogue regarding their intentions and plans.


As long as they don't become the slaves of the players, it's fine.

Blizzard does what the playerbase wants as much as possible. It's just horrible.


No, they don't. They shoot down way more player ideas than they adopt but they also have a bit of humility in that they don't claim to always know the best way to do things. They can't always anticipate every possible outcome. They communicate with their players about design choices and class issues and in the last year or so GC has done a pretty fantastic job of helping to keep the community informed about why things are being done the way they're being done. If there's a class nerf, he explains exactly why. If there's a buff, he explains why. If they're taking a new direction with the content, he explains why. When players come together in large groups and present an intelligent argument as to why a particular aspect of the game isn't working, Blizzard at least listens. If they disagree, they explain why. If they agree, they work a solution. They also suspend and terminate forum privileges on a regular basis for those people who think whining and screaming like a spoiled twit is the way to go.

If Blizzard had inadvertantly banned hundreds/thousands of accounts...regardless of what percentage of the overall subscriber bases represented...they would have released a statement acknowledging their error, given contact information so that those affected could have the issue resolved, and credited the affected players game time at least equivalent to the time lost due to the accidental bannings. You can **** and moan all you want about what you think Blizzard does, but it's a whole **** of a lot better than what SE does (or doesn't do, in this case.)

[quote]But I don't think it's even necessary to have this kind of open dialogue in the game. What does it change? Nothing. Would be cool I guess for those addicts who feel they need to be treated like kings but in reality it doesn't do much.[/quote

It gives players the feeling that the developer cares about the experience and not just the bottom line. It gives the players who are genuinely interested in what is going on an opportunity to find out from a reliable source instead of guessing and speculating. There's such an enormous difference in the overall experience between silence from the developer when things are obviously not working and, "When we made the decision to <buff/nerf/whatever> it was because we had originally intended for <situation> but after observing things for a while, we found that that wasn't the case."
#68 Aug 02 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
Why? Are you 9 years old? Do you need someone else to tell you when to stop and let the story sink in? Or are you big enough now that you can make that choice for yourself?


Are you not old enough to comprehend, when you have no waits you have to skip the cutscenes or be replaced by your group. With waits in, your group has to wait regardless so you get to enjoy and watch the cutscenes. You CANNOT just take a break when you NEED other people to proceed, or you fear getting replaced by your ls because you wanted to watch the cutscenes. Stop being an idiot and read and think before you speak. I am going to quote the same person I quoted before because I can relate to this.


Do you run with such frothing morons that they're going to boot you because you take 5 minutes to watch a cutscene? That's your own dumbass fault for PUGing everything or associating with idiots. Not only that, but you're exaggerating. You're reaching way too far afield for lame arguments to justify your lame position. You might as say that mandatory waits are good because oranges have peels.

Quote:
New game same company. You stick to WoW then because you obviously like how blizzard works. If you don't like how SE works, instead of acting like you know they are going to change how their whole operation work, how about you just stick to blizzard. This is SE's next FF mmo, this is not blizzard's next rumored MMO.


You're going to be a twit regardless of whose game you play. I'd prefer folks like you be segregated off in an obsolete corner and leave the rest of the people who actually think rationally and don't present phenomenally ridiculous arguments for why it would be good for a game to suck can enjoy the new stuff.

Quote:
Quote:
If SE does something about the issue it's their way of saying that they're listening. If they don't do anything, well, it's their way of saying that they're not listening. If it's such a big problem for some then they can take their money elsewhere. There's no need for SE to be 'sorry' and pamper the players.


Exactly, players feel like they is owed something because they pay to play the game. This is not like taxes, you are not forced to play and their are millions of options out their for you. People just like to complain, so they rather play a game that they complain about, then to play something they actually like.


It's called accountability. You can run that one through dictionary.com and find out what it means, and no business is ever truly successful without it. Any business asking someone to pay them on a monthly basis would ideally consider themselves accountable to their subscribers. If they aren't, they're just limiting their market and that's a stupid business practice. If SE wants to function on a global level, they have to adopt and sustain global views on standard business practices.
#69Hyanmen, Posted: Aug 02 2009 at 9:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) http://www.playonline.com/pcd/verup/ff11us/update.html
#70 Aug 02 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
Hyanmen wrote:

Quote:
Who in their right mind would refer to giving an explanation to those players as "pampering"?


"sh*t's not working right, guys." What other explanation could they give? It's quite easy to see just by reading the forums what the explanation might be, and it basically comes down to that.


Let's say you try to login, and get the LM-17. Pick a reason out of a hat, how about 'Irregular Activities'. You're just an average player, haven't done anything wrong, no buying or selling gil.

As soon as you see LM-17, your account is gone. CSRs are not permitted to discuss bans. You can't talk to a GM since you can no longer log in. You can't ask the person who made the decision, because it's an automated program. Too bad, so sad, thanks for playing.

Some sort of explanation is in order. That's not pampering, it's common sense.


Quote:
Quote:
There's only a handful of Allak posters who have been banned. Again, check out forum=10. Does that look like 99% happy customers to you?


Yep. Well, let's specify. Those who got banned are the <1% of the playerbase. The rest are just there to Q_Q even when SE has done nothing to them personally. They just see the threads and start to think of it as the end of the world (Zomg 10 threads about a guy getting banned on the first page!!1 = 10 guys got banned out of 400 000+). Yeah..


You know, FFXI like to talk about how their playerbase is older and more mature than that of other games. Yet somehow, WoW has over 20 times the players as does FFXI, but you don't see stuff like this on WoW's O-boards, or Allak's WoW boards. All things being equal, there should be at least 20x the complaining about customer service re: WoW. There are three possible reasons for why you don't see this:

1. WoW players are as a whole much more mature than FFXI players (no evidence of this)

2. FFXI players feed on drama (definitely something to this)

3. SE's customer service model truly is that horrifically bad (my vote)


You're not even defending SE's customer service, you're just blaming the players for reacting the way that they are.
#71 Aug 02 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
Quote:
When it comes to adjusting things, players could be right (if they're not biased towards some class- yeah right.) When it comes to adding content though, even the players don't know what they want. It's the devs job to figure out what exactly would be well received for players since all we can think of are bigger and better versions of existing features..


What you fail to realize is that these complaints are not from a single person, but from the top guilds.


Quote:
When developing an MMO becomes only about maximizing your profits by trying to please every player and doing what they say, that's when the developers have failed at their job imo


So, by making a game enjoyable and balanced the developers are failing?

Quote:
There you go. Can't get any clearer than that.


Quote:
The effect of the ninja job ability "Mijin Gakure" has been adjusted.
In light of this change, the latent effect granted by the ninja mythic weapon has also been changed.


Ok, what has been adjusted with the ability?

Quote:
Two new blue magic spells have been added.


What new blue magic spells have been added?

Quote:
Several new pieces of equipment have been added.


What new equipment has been added?

Quote:
Several new synthesis recipes have been added


What new recipes?



That is from the latest patch notes. I can only imagine how many open ended or unexplained patch additions i could find if i went through the entire patch history.
____________________________


#72 Aug 02 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
Do you run with such frothing morons that they're going to boot you because you take 5 minutes to watch a cutscene?


Yes I run with a hardcore shell that takes pride in being the first to accomplish something. I don't see a problem in this and it is actually fun to be the first and enjoy the content.

Quote:
You're going to be a twit regardless of whose game you play. I'd prefer folks like you be segregated off in an obsolete corner and leave the rest of the people who actually think rationally and don't present phenomenally ridiculous arguments for why it would be good for a game to suck can enjoy the new stuff.


Your going to be an idiot regardless of whose game you play. I'd perfer to be segregated from people like you that think you are owed something just because you CHOOSE to pay for a game. There is nothing "ridiculous" about being perfectly fine with a timer on the storyline. I fine it more "ridiculous" to whine over a timer when their are tons of other things you can be doing. If you don't like it then don't play. Timers does not make the game SUCK and if you feel like it does then you DON'T have to play a game that SUCKS.

Quote:
If SE wants to function on a global level, they have to adopt and sustain global views on standard business practices.


SE has done perfectly fine for itself without your help. They have already functioned on a global level, this is not a new company. SE will operate how SE operates, and blizzard will operate how blizzard operates. A new game does not change how a company operates, if you don't like it then don't support them (by paying to play their game). Once again this is SE new MMO, this is not Blizzards new rumored mmo.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 1:51pm by HocusP
#73 Aug 02 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
Blizzard at least listens.


What makes you think that SE doesn't? You can listen without saying a thing, except that SE does every few months when update rolls around. That's the kind of communication that actually matters, because that's when things really get changed (or not).

It's the developers job to shape up the game how they like it. If we, the players, like the outcome, we play the game and pay the subscription fee. If we don't like it, we don't play and thus give no money to the company.

Telling why they dis/agree doesn't matter. All that matters is what they actually do. We'll see the outcome, and if we agree with the changes or not is our choice to make. Intelligent players can look at the changes from all directions, and see what their reasons were even without them telling us 'why'. And even if they did tell us, so what? It won't change things in any way.

Quote:
There's such an enormous difference in the overall experience between silence from the developer when things are obviously not working and, "When we made the decision to <buff/nerf/whatever> it was because we had originally intended for <situation> but after observing things for a while, we found that that wasn't the case."


Really? If something is obviously not working, it'll get fixed sooner or later. SE talking all nice won't change the outcome in any way.

____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#74 Aug 02 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
Quote:
Really? If something is obviously not working, it'll get fixed sooner or later. SE talking all nice won't change the outcome in any way.


Then why do summoners rely on a subjob for 75% of their playstyle?

How many years did it take for ninja to be supported by the developers as a tank?

How many years did it take for drg to have a core mechanic (summon wyvern) removed from a 2 hour ability?

Seriously, that statement is the biggest copout you can make. Sure, everything will eventually get fixed. The amount of time it takes to get things working is the true mark of performance and reflective of how well the company listens and observes its playerbase.

The fact alone that these issues (and many more) persist for months to years tells you that SE does not listen or pay as much attention to the playerbase as you would think.
____________________________


#75 Aug 02 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
Let's say you try to login, and get the LM-17. Pick a reason out of a hat, how about 'Irregular Activities'. You're just an average player, haven't done anything wrong, no buying or selling gil.

As soon as you see LM-17, your account is gone. CSRs are not permitted to discuss bans. You can't talk to a GM since you can no longer log in. You can't ask the person who made the decision, because it's an automated program. Too bad, so sad, thanks for playing.

Some sort of explanation is in order. That's not pampering, it's common sense.


Go to forums, see other people have the same issue.. "Oh ****, SE's got some problems with the auto-ban tool it seems! And I'm a victim.. QQ"

Quote:
3. SE's customer service model truly is that horrifically bad (my vote)

You're not even defending SE's customer service, you're just blaming the players for reacting the way that they are.


I'm not defending it because it's horrible, as you said. How does that prove that 99% of the customers aren't happy, though? 1% of the players get owned by SE's horrible CS, 99% continue their playing like nothing happened. Well, in reality it's less than that, because the 1% posts on the forums about the judgment day, the 99% join in the conversation about "SE's horrible CS" and suddenly we have a riot going on, although only 1% got affected. It's silly.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#76 Aug 02 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
Then why do summoners rely on a subjob for 75% of their playstyle?

How many years did it take for ninja to be supported by the developers as a tank?

How many years did it take for drg to have a core mechanic (summon wyvern) removed from a 2 hour ability?

Seriously, that statement is the biggest copout you can make. Sure, everything will eventually get fixed. The amount of time it takes to get things working is the true mark of performance and reflective of how well the company listens and observes its playerbase.

The fact alone that these issues (and many more) persist for months to years tells you that SE does not listen or pay as much attention to the playerbase as you would think.


Well, my definition of "not working" is that there's a bug/glitch that's making a feature of the game not work as intended. Stuff that happens after every patch but eventually gets patched right. You seem to have your own definition of that sentence.

As for your definition, although SE is slow in what they do they still seem to listen. "Too little, too late" seems to be the most commonly used word when it comes to SE's updates, but after CoP they really did seem to start listening to players' demands more.

But what would it have changed if SE came out and said "Yeah guys, we know that DRG needs fixing but umm just wait few years and we'll get to it!". **** woulda still taken long to fix.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#77 Aug 02 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
What you fail to realize is that these complaints are not from a single person, but from the top guilds.


The class fixes should be more unbiased in that case, but yeah all those complaints are good for are for fixing stuff, and even then the devs could create something creative instead of "devs, plz make ability berserk that adds +15% attack and -15% defense for 3 minutes!" devs: "k."

Quote:
So, by making a game enjoyable and balanced the developers are failing?


Yeah, depending on how they do it. It's not much about the fail but the incompetence that's disgusting. Only way to not fail is to do exactly what the players say? What weak devs indeed.

Quote:
That is from the latest patch notes. I can only imagine how many open ended or unexplained patch additions i could find if i went through the entire patch history.


Do you really want to know every detail? I like finding things out myself and as the community rather than have SE tell us the plot twists and walkthroughs for every new mission out there as well as tell us the exact recipes for new synths (those you can check in-game though, just go to the crafting NPC and he'll tell you what the new recipes are!).

What I don't like are ninja updates, but it's not like SE has been sporting much of those lately anyway.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#78 Aug 02 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
Then why do summoners rely on a subjob for 75% of their playstyle?

How many years did it take for ninja to be supported by the developers as a tank?

How many years did it take for drg to have a core mechanic (summon wyvern) removed from a 2 hour ability?

Seriously, that statement is the biggest copout you can make. Sure, everything will eventually get fixed. The amount of time it takes to get things working is the true mark of performance and reflective of how well the company listens and observes its playerbase


Thats your own definition of not working.

I had smn to 75. If you make your own parties or party in a static, you can play the support/dd role in a party a lot. In endgame, back in the day when it was pld/war tanks, smn with garuda on a AA rotation was basic. Even then you was support/dd and AA rotation more then a healer. Now smn is used more for DD then anything else in endgame. It is great because you don't take hate and is a steady good dd every minute or so. So yes for a lot of people the /whm is the main point of their smn. But, not for everyone and its not SE fault you agree to join parties as a main healer.

I don't get the "how many year did it take to support nin tanking". It might not have been intended to happen but nin has been tanking forever. When sky was added and byakko haidate was added then it is being supported. If this was blizzard's MMO utsusemi: San would have probally been added years ago, and I think thats a bad thing.

As far as drg goes, yes they changed their 2 hour. They felt like it needed an upgrade and putting its wyvern on a 20 minute timer was enough. Notice I said when "they felt like it needed an upgrade", not when the whiny playbase felt like it needed an upgrade.
#79 Aug 02 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Go to forums, see other people have the same issue.. "Oh ****, SE's got some problems with the auto-ban tool it seems! And I'm a victim.. QQ"


That's what you would have done? Seriously? I wish we would have gone to the same schools, I would have enjoyed taking your lunch money from you every day.


Quote:
I'm not defending it because it's horrible, as you said. How does that prove that 99% of the customers aren't happy, though? 1% of the players get owned by SE's horrible CS, 99% continue their playing like nothing happened. Well, in reality it's less than that, because the 1% posts on the forums about the judgment day, the 99% join in the conversation about "SE's horrible CS" and suddenly we have a riot going on, although only 1% got affected. It's silly.


That would make Option 2 the runaway winner then. While I do believe that FFXI players : drama :: fat kids : hot pockets, I also think there's more to it than that.

It's a cumulative effect for those players who have played for a long time. The ranged weapon 'adjustment', the BST MPK 'adjustment', the enfeebling 'adjustment' all were introduced with no warning and no explanation. The players wanted to know what happened and why, and in any other MMO, they would have received an answer from the developers.

Now things are moving beyond stealth 'adjustments', and people are being banned without explanation. People have had friends quit over the aforementioned gameplay adjustments, and now they're seeing friends outright banned. They're sick of it. It's not just a flavor-of-the-month Q_Q rally.

But of course, then there are some who say "Didn't happen to me, sucks to be you, la la la la la". Fair enough, but to wonder why others are upset is silly.
#80 Aug 02 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
HocusP wrote:
As far as drg goes, yes they changed their 2 hour. They felt like it needed an upgrade and putting its wyvern on a 20 minute timer was enough. Notice I said when "they felt like it needed an upgrade", not when the whiny playbase felt like it needed an upgrade.


It was obvious to anyone after playing the job for more than a day or so that DRGs 2-hour needed an upgrade. SE took two years to fix it and you're applauding them for it?
#81 Aug 02 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
When you deal with such a hardcore playerbase - the epitome of this being people who get paid to play through content - listening to informed and factual complaints is a smart move.


Listening to the player feedback is always important, but it doesn't mean that the devs should just copy the players' ideas directly. Good devs can think of something better than we can- honestly, though, if the devs are bad it's better to just copy the ideas than try to figure out something on your own..


I don't think an MMO developer should copy players ideas directly either (unless it's a good idea). I mean...talk about the epitome of dumb.

"Hey, that guy had a brilliant idea that we could implement that would have a really positive impact on the overall experience of our players."

"Well ****, now we can't do it."

"Why not?"

"We'd be directly copying a player's idea and that's just bad."

"Why?"

"I dunno. Some twit on the forums said so."


Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 11:44am by AureliusSir
#82 Aug 02 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
It was obvious to anyone after playing the job for more than a day or so that DRGs 2-hour needed an upgrade. SE took two years to fix it and you're applauding them for it?


Did you hear me applauding them? I said they fixed it when they felt like it needed to be fixed, not when the players whined about it. You might have felt it needed to be fixed 2 years ago, but they did not so it wasn't fixed back then. Drg 2-hour wasn't even much of an issue until they nerfed tp return on ws's and penta thrust spam went out the window.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 2:40pm by HocusP
#83 Aug 02 2009 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
HocusP wrote:

Did you hear me applauding them? I said they fixed it when they felt like it needed to be fixed, not when the players whined about it. You might have felt it needed to be fixed 2 years ago, but they did not so it wasn't fixed back then.


It needed to be fixed back then. Anyone who paid attention to the game could see it. They failed in not fixing it sooner.


HocusP wrote:
Drg 2-hour wasn't even much of an issue until they nerfed tp return on ws's and penta thrust spam went out the window.


DRG was the only job where a huge portion of the job's benefit and functionality would be lost for two hours if the pet died. Poor design, especially considering wyvern death was often out of the control of the player.
#84 Aug 02 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
I don't think an MMO developer should copy players ideas directly either (unless it's a good idea). I mean...talk about the epitome of dumb.


It still doesn't have to be direct copying.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#85 Aug 02 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
It needed to be fixed back then. Anyone who paid attention to the game could see it. They failed in not fixing it sooner.


Unless you think SE was just like "I know it needs to be fixed but i'm going to wait 2 years until I do it", then I don't see the point. They didn't feel like it needed to be fixed back then and now (or when they fixed it) they did feel like it was needed.

Quote:
DRG was the only job where a huge portion of the job's benefit and functionality would be lost for two hours if the pet died. Poor design, especially considering wyvern death was often out of the control of the player.


If you called him out or had him out before you logged then you wouldn't have to wait anytime before getting him back. A lot of the time it was out of the players hand, but you could always prepare for it because you know what mobs your fighting. You could always party at a place where the mobs didn't have a lot of AoE moves, instead of fighting gobs and stuff. It was fixed and now 20 minute timer is much better for drgs.
#86 Aug 02 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
It's a cumulative effect for those players who have played for a long time. The ranged weapon 'adjustment', the BST MPK 'adjustment', the enfeebling 'adjustment' all were introduced with no warning and no explanation. The players wanted to know what happened and why, and in any other MMO, they would have received an answer from the developers.


Do you need an explanation to the BST MPK adjustment? Really? Okay: "Because BST's MPK'd players." And the RNG nerf? Maybe SE assumed too much about the playerbases intelligence, but at least I realized that they nerfed RNG because it was too strong.

The enfeebling adjustment wasn't intentional- thus no warning nor explanation, since they knew as much about it as we did.

Also, warnings, lol. "Watch out guys, we're gonna nerf RNG real soon, abuse this info as much as possible before the update rolls in!"

Quote:
Now things are moving beyond stealth 'adjustments', and people are being banned without explanation. People have had friends quit over the aforementioned gameplay adjustments, and now they're seeing friends outright banned. They're sick of it. It's not just a flavor-of-the-month Q_Q rally.


There haven't been (large) ninja adjustments that were intentional in ages. And every update has some bugs, what's new?

And to quit over the enfeebling nerf, well, more things to add to my "that's silly" list I guess. Actually, nah, my guess is that those players were bored with the game already but too addicted to quit.. there's way too many of those players on the forums nowadays, complaining but still unable to let it go. Waiting that 'maybe someday SE will 'listen''.. the most annoying kind. But it's not only the players' fault... SE really made an addicting game out of XI, it's not as easy to just quit like in WoW where you just stop logging in when you get bored. Oh well, just rambling now, moving on..

Quote:
But of course, then there are some who say "Didn't happen to me, sucks to be you, la la la la la". Fair enough, but to wonder why others are upset is silly.


Those who got affected somehow have all the right to be upset. Too bad it's maybe 5% of the complainers on the forum at best. I'm talking about the rest of the players that I think are silly.


____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#87 Aug 02 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
That's what you would have done? Seriously? I wish we would have gone to the same schools, I would have enjoyed taking your lunch money from you every day.


Uhm, yes? First call a GM/CS.. no answer. Next logical step (if you want an explanation)? See if others have the same problem in the interwebs! They do? Well then, seems that you found your explanation!
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#88 Aug 02 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
**
305 posts
Quote:
The class fixes should be more unbiased in that case, but yeah all those complaints are good for are for fixing stuff, and even then the devs could create something creative instead of "devs, plz make ability berserk that adds +15% attack and -15% defense for 3 minutes!" devs: "k."


I don't see how you can get anymore unbiased then factual spreadsheet numbers deriving each class dps, hps and tank viablity over the course of a long data set and compiled amoungst various other top guilds for comparision.

Seriously, the wow raiding community is very large and very communicative with eachother.

Quote:
Yeah, depending on how they do it. It's not much about the fail but the incompetence that's disgusting. Only way to not fail is to do exactly what the players say? What weak devs indeed.


So, developers are supposed to be omnipotent game creators who can make perfect games? Seriously, you cannot compare a team of programmers who work 40 hours a week on a multitude of projects to the vast numbers or players who min/max and account for situations that the developrs cannot think of.

Seriously, if you believe that way, why are there exploits and bugs? Do you remember the rusty cap epidemic which crushed the ffxi economy for a good long time?

You know what developers are? People.


Quote:
Do you really want to know every detail?


You said that the reasoning and direction the game is going to "could not be any clearer" than from the patch notes. So then i asked - what is the purpose and direction of adding new blue mage skills (let alone their name and function) and likewise every other note that was as unexplained.

You cannot have it both ways, either it is clear and tells you how / why / etc or it is not clear. Maybe translucent would be a better term /shrug.

Quote:

As far as drg goes, yes they changed their 2 hour. They felt like it needed an upgrade and putting its wyvern on a 20 minute timer was enough. Notice I said when "they felt like it needed an upgrade", not when the whiny playbase felt like it needed an upgrade.


Hey, lets make a class whose defining mechanic is on a 2 hour cooldown and can inadvertantly through no fault or skill factor on the player be nullified.

yeah, how that took 2 years to fix is beyond me.

Quote:
It still doesn't have to be direct copying.


So, if some guy came to the forums and came up with a end-all be-all of balancing for a class... and idea that can only be surmized as perfect... you would have the developer ignore it because it was not their idea?
____________________________


#89Hyanmen, Posted: Aug 02 2009 at 1:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'd have the devs change the idea to be more creative but by core the same as the guy meant it to be. Like I said, not direct copying but it doesn't have to mean they have to ignore the idea either.
#90 Aug 02 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
Quote:
I'd have the devs change the idea to be more creative but by core the same as the guy meant it to be. Like I said, not direct copying but it doesn't have to mean they have to ignore the idea either.


I'm sorry, but that is just stupid. Changing something, something that i went out of my way to describe as "perfect" for the simple notion that is not a developer idea is just stupid.

I understand you want to stick to your principles, but that is giving you a bias - the fact that you would change something described as perfect for your principles shows this. It is hard to take you serious after that tbh.

Quote:
Who said anything about perfect? What I want is the devs to be creative, like they should be. They're artists of some kind after all.

Players can help in fixing exploits and bugs, but to actually decide what content gets added? That's when the devs start failing.


This explains alot of your reasoning. They are not artists. The story makers and artistic department are artists. Its a stretch, but the game producer / director might be artists. Encounter developers / battle mechanic programmers are not artists, they are programmers.

Programming a working model for encounters and battle / player mechanics is thier job. There is nothing artistic in recognizing that a class arbitrarily does 10% less dps then another class.


Quote:
Updates are the best and only required indicator of what direction the devs are taking the game, even if the patch notes aren't as informative as they could be.


Ok... explain

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=19095

Now, tell me how patch content with no clear description which can be interpetted any numerous ways is clearly showing the path the developers want the game to go?

Sure, there are obvious things like the NIN jas... but there are alot more ambigious patches which truely can be interpetted various way.

You seem to want the game to be like an art piece - something which the artist simply gives you and you decide how to interpet it. There is nothing wrong with that when it comes to story or lore. When it comes to the actual mechanics and updates of the game, it is out of place - these things are based on numbers and calculations not abstract ideas or concepts.

Anyway, you want to believe how you do. I will believe how i want to. FFXIV will be fine regardless. If it has stuff you don't like, you wont play. If it has stuff i don't like, i wont play. That said, I'm done with this thread.
____________________________


#91Hyanmen, Posted: Aug 02 2009 at 2:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I see your point, but I have to disagree. Concepts aren't based on just numbers and calculations. Making new events require artistic thought- you don't just create something like Salvage or Nyzul isle with just calculations- they're clearly made from abstract ideas. The developer can also choose to copy what he did before- say, Dynamis-whitegate, caedarva and xarcabard[S] rather than creating new systems like Limbus, Salvage and Assault. I find those to be work of art, and I appreciate the devs trying new ideas even if the outcome is risky rather than going the safe, "this is how we'll make the most money"-way.
#92 Aug 02 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
I think what Hyanmen wants is a company that maybe hears its players concerns, then thinks for themselves is it a legit problem or piece of content, then if they decide it is they implement it in, in their own way. Now me personally if a player has a perfect idea then sure they should use it. Thing is their is no such thing as perfect in the world or in a game. What is perfect for one player can be the worst for another player. So no players will ever say anything perfect that should be copied exactly.

I think all that players concerns should do is draw attention to certain aspects of the game. Then the company should decide for itself do they want to fix or change them aspects and if they do then they should do it in their way.

I see blizzard's way of conducting business kind of selling your soul for money. Let me explain how first, now hearing your players is one thing but listening to almost everything just so you can still keep their money is another thing.

There are businesses and people that have the goal to get the most money by any mean necessary. Then their is businesses and people that would like to get the max money they can, while staying true to theirselves and their vision. I would rather give my money to the company that wants to make the most money but also stay true to their vision (thats just me). Now their are people that would rather give their money to the first option, and that is fine too. It is your money and you spend it on whichever company you want, but don't try to convert one company into another company.

#93 Aug 02 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
HocusP wrote:
I think what Hyanmen wants is a company that maybe hears its players concerns, then thinks for themselves is it a legit problem or piece of content, then if they decide it is they implement it in, in their own way. Now me personally if a player has a perfect idea then sure they should use it. Thing is their is no such thing as perfect in the world or in a game. What is perfect for one player can be the worst for another player. So no players will ever say anything perfect that should be copied exactly.

I think all that players concerns should do is draw attention to certain aspects of the game. Then the company should decide for itself do they want to fix or change them aspects and if they do then they should do it in their way.

I see blizzard's way of conducting business kind of selling your soul for money. Let me explain how first, now hearing your players is one thing but listening to almost everything just so you can still keep their money is another thing.


Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Give me one example where Blizzard has given in to the players against their own better judgment. One concrete example. Not a guess, not a speculation, not something you heard from someone who knows someone who plays WoW. A specific example. Anything else and you are (as always) simply talking out of your ***.
#94 Aug 02 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Give me one example where Blizzard has given in to the players against their own better judgment. One concrete example. Not a guess, not a speculation, not something you heard from someone who knows someone who plays WoW. A specific example. Anything else and you are (as always) simply talking out of your ***.


LOL you again, I never said they did something over their better judgement. Come on now, a lot of them changes or tweeks would not have been added if the players didn't complain about it. When some people quit because they feel blizzard is listening to the playerbase too much, then that says something. It is their better judgement to give the players exactly what they want so they keep their money. Their is nothing wrong with that, I would just rather give my money to a company that stays true to its vision, rather then do everything the players want in order to keep their money. Unless you are saying everything that the players want, is also blizzards vision of the game then I don't see your point. Its kind of naive to think that everything the players wanted (/got) was also everything blizzard always wanted for the game.

I remember SE had an interview, and they was presented with a proposal on how they could turn the hnms into forced pop using orbs and stuff. It was a good and well written proposal and SE took it and said thank you and they would look over it. Now, I think if blizzard was presented with the same type of proposal it would of found its way into the game (just my opinion). I take it as SE looked over it (or maybe they didn't), and either way, they knew it wasn't a direction they wanted to go with the game and it wasn't in their vision. That proposal was never put in the game and I respect that because, if it wasn't their vision to do their content in that way then it shouldn't find its way in the game.

Quote:
not something you heard from someone who knows someone who plays WoW


This seems to bother you, would it be better if I got one of my many WoW playing friends (or ex WoW playing) to say the samething here? How do you know that people with crafting mules are getting banned? Because I doubt you got banned personally. My guess would be you know because you HEARD from someone else that did get banned or you observed. Well you can hear from people and observe without actually playing the game as well. When you see a thread of a WoW board, I'm guessing that person plays or have played WoW. So when he says the samething I do then is it different just because he plays or have played it? When you see 100 written editorals saying the samething I am then the "you don't play WoW so you don't know anything about WoW", thing kind of goes out the window.



Edited, Aug 2nd 2009 9:36pm by HocusP
#95 Aug 02 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
316 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
That's what you would have done? Seriously? I wish we would have gone to the same schools, I would have enjoyed taking your lunch money from you every day.


Uhm, yes? First call a GM/CS.. no answer. Next logical step (if you want an explanation)? See if others have the same problem in the interwebs! They do? Well then, seems that you found your explanation!


See, no, that's the whole point. You wouldn't have found an explanation, you'd have found that others are having the same problems that you are.

CEO Goofus bans players randomly with no explanation, leaving players to wonder what the **** is going on.

CEO Gallant openly communicates with his customers, even if it means telling them things they don't want to hear.

#96 Aug 02 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
I said i wouldnt reply to this anymore, but what the **** some decent points were brought up...

Quote:
Well, do you see artists of other entertainment do the same if they see a perfect idea that is actually someone elses and not theirs? They wouldn't possibly implement it to their product, not because it sucks but because it's not their idea.


You have a broad definition of artist - to include coders and such - to which i will tell you concretely that there are artists then who use others ideas.You do not need to look far in real life to see people taking others ideas. As soon as the patent is up, they take it and run with it. Other things are really the same thing, just with different packaging.

So basically, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot define artist as anyone who creates something as you have with a programmer and then say that artists do not copy ideas.

Look at everquest and ffxi and tell me that SE did not copy things. Sure, they placed a new wrapper over the model, but the model is still the same thing.

Quote:
How could they say "this is a product I'm proud of" when in reality it's made of someone else's ideas and the artist just copies everything and no feature is actually their own.


I really doubt that anyone on the blizzard developement team has nothing but pride in what they do. They make an unheard of amount of money. They are part of a game which is a milestone and redefined the genre.

And again, look at ffxi and other mmo's out there. FFxi is not the glimmer of uniqueness that you would like to belive it is.


Quote:
Blizzard doesn't seem to have a problem with this, since their 'artists' are making content for the sake of making money only. I've no respect for that.


You do realize that they are a business just like SE? A business is not out to do anything but make money. SE may tell you that they want to make a masterpeice of artistic wonder, but the bottom line is that they want to make money off of it and that is how they pitch it to the public.

Quote:
A great battle system is just another work of art, in my opinion. You still need ideas and such to create something great like a good battle system, hard programming work just isn't enough. Creativeness is still important, which makes them artists as much as story makers and artistic department.


That is your opinion - i do not agree.

Quote:
How the dev fixes the 10% difference in dps is what makes them artists. They can go the simple way of copying someone else, or they can create something truly unique that nobody would have thought of to fix the gap.


I do not see how increasing a classes damage makes them artists since all they need to do is tweak the coding that governs the class. Nothing artistic in that to me at all. It is straight math.

Quote:
see your point, but I have to disagree. Concepts aren't based on just numbers and calculations. Making new events require artistic thought- you don't just create something like Salvage or Nyzul isle with just calculations- they're clearly made from abstract ideas.


That is why i said the story / lore developers are artists. The actual encounter and battle developers are coders.

It takes an artist to come up with the setting and lore of say Salvage (the story / lore developers). It takes a programmer to come up with the mechanics of the event that allow for a balanced event.

Again, we just disagree. To me, you give too broad of a range to the term artist. And likewise, you seem to believe in the typical "if you make money you're a sell out and your work is crap compare to the starving artists".

But it's your perogative.

Quote:
EDIT: Ugh, I should stop myself from having an opinion that is different from that of the general population, always gets me defaulted. Oh well.


These forums are pretty harsh to people. Mention that you dislike SE or ffxi for whatever justifiable reason and you get flamed.

That and if you mention wow or anything positive related to it.
____________________________


#97 Aug 02 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Repressed Memories
******
20,808 posts
Quote:
EDIT: Ugh, I should stop myself from having an opinion that is different from that of the general population, always gets me defaulted. Oh well.

The problem isn't havign a different opinion. It's that your opinion is incredibly poorly supported. No one here is taking issue with your conclusion; people are poking holes at your reasoning.
#98 Aug 02 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
I remember SE had an interview, and they was presented with a proposal on how they could turn the hnms into forced pop using orbs and stuff. It was a good and well written proposal and SE took it and said thank you and they would look over it. Now, I think if blizzard was presented with the same type of proposal it would of found its way into the game (just my opinion). I take it as SE looked over it (or maybe they didn't), and either way, they knew it wasn't a direction they wanted to go with the game and it wasn't in their vision. That proposal was never put in the game and I respect that because, if it wasn't their vision to do their content in that way then it shouldn't find its way in the game.


You have a pretty narrow view, then. Protip: Don't argue based on second hand information. You're putting your own credibility in the hands of other peoples' opinions.
#99 Aug 03 2009 at 1:02 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
The problem isn't havign a different opinion. It's that your opinion is incredibly poorly supported. No one here is taking issue with your conclusion; people are poking holes at your reasoning.


It would be easily proven wrong then, right? They can poke holes all they want (I advise them to do that), since I do the same to their reasoning, but until the argument is over nothing is set.

EDIT: Even Kaces said that "decent points were brought up"... But yeah, I disagree with the popular opinion, thus I get the red arrow (as he gets the green arrow, since he's on 'the right side'- what a brilliant rating system indeed ;D)

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 9:04am by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#100 Aug 03 2009 at 1:36 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
You have a broad definition of artist - to include coders and such - to which i will tell you concretely that there are artists then who use others ideas.You do not need to look far in real life to see people taking others ideas. As soon as the patent is up, they take it and run with it. Other things are really the same thing, just with different packaging.

So basically, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot define artist as anyone who creates something as you have with a programmer and then say that artists do not copy ideas.

Look at everquest and ffxi and tell me that SE did not copy things. Sure, they placed a new wrapper over the model, but the model is still the same thing.


Yeah, you're right about that. I guess it comes down to how much they will copy and how much new they'll create instead of copying. In MMO world it's kind of a must to copy at least something, but the more you actually let every other game company do the work, the less respect I have for the devs.

SE is constantly trying new concepts, no expansion is the same. It can be bad or good, but I do have my respect to them for not going the easy route all the time to maximize profits. Some ideas were taken from other games, but just as many features the devs thought themselves.

Quote:
I really doubt that anyone on the blizzard developement team has nothing but pride in what they do. They make an unheard of amount of money. They are part of a game which is a milestone and redefined the genre.

And again, look at ffxi and other mmo's out there. FFxi is not the glimmer of uniqueness that you would like to belive it is.


Yeah, too bad they, instead of going with the original direction the game was supposed to take, rather went for maximizing profits-route that pleases everyone possible in exchange for their idea of what the game was supposed to be like.

SE is the opposite of this, they created the game exactly as their original direction was- which is often seen as "SE won't do what we players want Q_Q". Even though they adjusted a bit as ToAU came out to shift the game from it's original direction, they still kept going in a direction they wished to take, even if it wasn't as obvious as before. That's the kind of a game I want to play instead of McDonald's-MMO's we have nowadays. If the devs are good everyone will like their game, if the devs are bad no one will play, I think that's fair.

Quote:
You do realize that they are a business just like SE? A business is not out to do anything but make money. SE may tell you that they want to make a masterpeice of artistic wonder, but the bottom line is that they want to make money off of it and that is how they pitch it to the public.


The business is out there to make money, but the people in the business shouldn't be. It's sad if the company forces the developers to try to create a game that tries to maximize profits (borrow everything from WoW!!1) instead of letting the devs do the thinking (which would in most cases lead to a much better MMO experience- financially as well).

Quote:
That is your opinion - i do not agree.


If I may ask why? From what it looks like, you think that a great battle system can be made with just numbers and coding- no artistic touch is even needed. Like the damage calculations and enmity factors would be the only thing that makes a battle system?

Quote:
I do not see how increasing a classes damage makes them artists since all they need to do is tweak the coding that governs the class. Nothing artistic in that to me at all. It is straight math.


How will you tweak the code? Will you nerf an existing ability, or maybe add a new effect to it? Or make a completely new ability instead?

Like the SAM buff, which gave Hasso and Seigan. Those 2 abilities aren't created just by coding, there needs to be an idea, a concept about them too. If the artists suck all they can think of is "Uhh, lets give SAM JA that buffs their attack +25% lol", if the artists are fairly good they can think of something better than that. That's where artistic style comes in- how will they approach at the situation?

Quote:
Again, we just disagree. To me, you give too broad of a range to the term artist. And likewise, you seem to believe in the typical "if you make money you're a sell out and your work is crap compare to the starving artists".


Well, I don't know what else to call the difference between "Let's make a Dynamis 2! Dynamis 3! Dynamis 4!" and "Let's make Limbus! Salvage! Nyzul Isle! MMM!". The fact that no event is like any other (although they share similarities- kill stuff, get lewt) is what I appreciate about SE, and dislike about Blizzard (although Blizzard at least makes some great boss encounters, I'll give them that).

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 9:38am by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#101 Aug 03 2009 at 5:51 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
You have a pretty narrow view, then. Protip: Don't argue based on second hand information. You're putting your own credibility in the hands of other peoples' opinions.


Its not much argueing, its more of me saying I know and see people with this issue, and if I was a player this would be something I wouldn't like as well. I don't have to necessary play the game to notice things I wouldn't like and issues that other people have that I wouldn't like either.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (22)