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#102 Aug 03 2009 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am on lunch right now, so i can elaborate later if i am unclear on anything.

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Yeah, you're right about that. I guess it comes down to how much they will copy and how much new they'll create instead of copying. In MMO world it's kind of a must to copy at least something, but the more you actually let every other game company do the work, the less respect I have for the devs.


That is your opinion. Personally, I think it is best to grow and build upon other companies good ideas. Newton said it best i suppose.

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Yeah, too bad they, instead of going with the original direction the game was supposed to take, rather went for maximizing profits-route that pleases everyone possible in exchange for their idea of what the game was supposed to be like.


The original intent of the game was very similar to that of the average mmo of the time. They broke from the mold in that they allowed and encouraged solo play to get to endgame, aside from that they were very cookie cutter in their endgame design.

Since breaking from that (and truly as you have said about SE, blizzards expansions are not similar and in fact they change their structure rather drastically) they have doubled (or more) their subscription rates. One can then infer that they have made a better game, as more people want to play it then originally. Therefore you can conclude that they steered the course of the game in a correct direction. Not the direction you like, but that is one person out of however many million.

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SE is the opposite of this, they created the game exactly as their original direction was- which is often seen as "SE won't do what we players want Q_Q". Even though they adjusted a bit as ToAU came out to shift the game from it's original direction, they still kept going in a direction they wished to take, even if it wasn't as obvious as before. That's the kind of a game I want to play instead of McDonald's-MMO's we have nowadays. If the devs are good everyone will like their game, if the devs are bad no one will play, I think that's fair.


While SE is not as pronounced in their direction shift as blizzard originally was, they still have shifted things quite a bit. Solo content for one is a good indicator.

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The business is out there to make money, but the people in the business shouldn't be. It's sad if the company forces the developers to try to create a game that tries to maximize profits (borrow everything from WoW!!1) instead of letting the devs do the thinking (which would in most cases lead to a much better MMO experience- financially as well).


The people who work in the business should be concerned about keeping their jobs and supporting their families.

A company hires you to make money for them, not to express your artistic fancies.


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If I may ask why? From what it looks like, you think that a great battle system can be made with just numbers and coding- no artistic touch is even needed. Like the damage calculations and enmity factors would be the only thing that makes a battle system?


Easy. Battle systems can be broken down into <auto attack> <special 1> <special 2> <etc> all with related cool downs and effects. Making a battle system from there is simply a numbers balancing act.

The story / lore developers then add names to the attacks and build the reasoning behind them.

The art department then makes the attacks look flashy and nice.

The latter two are important, but not critical to the function of the game. Having the system be balanced and effective is much more important than coming up with a nice name for the attack or having the animation look flashy.

That is why i believe that battle mechanics and balancing are not artistic. The core of the system is mathematical in nature.

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How will you tweak the code? Will you nerf an existing ability, or maybe add a new effect to it? Or make a completely new ability instead?

Like the SAM buff, which gave Hasso and Seigan. Those 2 abilities aren't created just by coding, there needs to be an idea, a concept about them too. If the artists suck all they can think of is "Uhh, lets give SAM JA that buffs their attack +25% lol", if the artists are fairly good they can think of something better than that. That's where artistic style comes in- how will they approach at the situation?


Depends on the situation. The easiest way to do things is to simply adjust current abilities and damage calculations - thus keeping the potential for interference and unbalance to other classes minimal. Simply put, if a 10% dps loss needs to be corrected, adding damage to current abilities which in total add 10% dps is much nicer for balance in general than coming up with a new flashy ability.

If i am not mistaken as well, that sam buff disrupted balance in the game pretty massively.

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Well, I don't know what else to call the difference between "Let's make a Dynamis 2! Dynamis 3! Dynamis 4!" and "Let's make Limbus! Salvage! Nyzul Isle! MMM!". The fact that no event is like any other (although they share similarities- kill stuff, get lewt) is what I appreciate about SE, and dislike about Blizzard (although Blizzard at least makes some great boss encounters, I'll give them that).


That statement really does not have anything to do with my observation. Tell me how the starving artist approach is a good business model? Tell me why should a team of developers never consider the enjoyment of their player base over their original intent / ideas?

You know why blizzard incorporates certain features or addons into the game? Because they see the demand for them. These things boost player enjoyment. Why does that bother you so much?
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#103 Aug 03 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
It would be easily proven wrong then, right?

It basically has been.
Hyanmen wrote:
EDIT: Even Kaces said that "decent points were brought up"... But yeah, I disagree with the popular opinion, thus I get the red arrow (as he gets the green arrow, since he's on 'the right side'- what a brilliant rating system indeed ;D)

Trying to play the victim here isn't going to earn you kudos. Stop pretending people are rating you down just because they disagree with you. Either choose to ignore ratings altogether like most of us do or accept that maybe--just maybe--you were being rated down because your points are genuinely bad and without much merit.

Begging for rate ups and whining over rate downs isn't exactly the epitome of cool.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 1:41pm by Allegory
#104 Aug 03 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
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You have a pretty narrow view, then. Protip: Don't argue based on second hand information. You're putting your own credibility in the hands of other peoples' opinions.


Its not much argueing, its more of me saying I know and see people with this issue, and if I was a player this would be something I wouldn't like as well. I don't have to necessary play the game to notice things I wouldn't like and issues that other people have that I wouldn't like either.


You...as usual...are not understanding. Blizzard does not do everything the players want. They don't base their design choices on what players have told them should be in the game. They try to make the game appeal to as many of their players as possible, and there's a difference. There's a difference between Bob Scrub posting on the forums saying Blizzard should do <x> and Blizzard saying, "We kinda think that by doing <y>, we'll be creating an experience that is more enjoyable and rewarding for a larger segment of the playerbase than if we do <z> in order to cater to a smaller group."

That's the difference. That's why Blizzard has the subscriber base that they do. SE does not do that. That's why FFXI is struggling. That's why the FFXI boards here on Alla is comprised of as many 'SE is blowing it' threads as questions about the game or discussions about content. Compare that to the WoW boards and you'll see an enormous difference.
#105 Aug 03 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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If I give a piece of cloth to a tailer he doesn't instantly give me a robe in return, he tells me to come back next week.

I don't mind to wait, but I do agree that JP midnight is a bit odd. They should make it more like wait x in game days.
#106 Aug 03 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
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You...as usual...are not understanding. Blizzard does not do everything the players want. They don't base their design choices on what players have told them should be in the game. They try to make the game appeal to as many of their players as possible, and there's a difference. There's a difference between Bob Scrub posting on the forums saying Blizzard should do <x> and Blizzard saying, "We kinda think that by doing <y>, we'll be creating an experience that is more enjoyable and rewarding for a larger segment of the playerbase than if we do <z> in order to cater to a smaller group."


Well blizzard has the perception that it does and perception is key. Of course they don't do every single thing the playerbase says, but the perception is it does do a lot just to keep their money.

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That's the difference. That's why Blizzard has the subscriber base that they do. SE does not do that. That's why FFXI is struggling. That's why the FFXI boards here on Alla is comprised of as many 'SE is blowing it' threads as questions about the game or discussions about content. Compare that to the WoW boards and you'll see an enormous difference.


I have seen WoW boards and it has as much if not more complaining then the FF boards. As I showed in the other thread (I forgot which), there are editorals and boards with tons of issues just like the FF boards. Players will complain and that will never change. Blizzard has a great amount of subscribers but their are many different reason why that is. Things like where is the game released at (like which countries, like korea?), the average age of the playerbase and many other things. These are two different companies and I doubt a successful company will change how they completely operate just because they are releasing a new game.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 4:57pm by HocusP
#107 Aug 03 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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These are two different companies and I doubt a successful company will change how they completely operate just because they are releasing a new game.


From a company standpoint, that is a sad business model. Learning from others success and adapting to it is a key fundamental in pretty much any industry.

Basically, if you're outsold by another company you do not stay the course and hope for the best... you look at why they have outsold you and how you can improve your own sales to compete.
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#108 Aug 03 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Well blizzard has the perception that it does and perception is key. Of course they don't do every single thing the playerbase says, but the perception is it does do a lot just to keep their money.


Perception is key? What's that supposed to mean? Is key to whom? Obviously the people already playing the game are interested in the reality, not the perception.

It would seem that the only people to which perception is key is those who have been scared off by posts making claims like you've been making.

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I have seen WoW boards and it has as much if not more complaining then the FF boards. As I showed in the other thread (I forgot which), there are editorals and boards with tons of issues just like the FF boards.


Not like this past seven days, there haven't. And the difference between the two situations is that FFXI doesn't have official forums, so they designate Premiere Sites (of which this is one) which they officially promote (and allegedly read). In the past four months, Allak admins have written two scathing editorials critical of SE's lack of communication and poor customer service. That's a big difference from a writer on leethuntarpowr.com ******** about an update nerf.


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These are two different companies and I doubt a successful company will change how they completely operate just because they are releasing a new game.


You'll still find plenty of former SWG players who will never touch another Sony MMO after the NGE update. I'm not saying that SE has done anything on that scope, but don't underestimate the ability of players to hold a grudge when they feel a game company has screwed them over.
#109 Aug 03 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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From a company standpoint, that is a sad business model. Learning from others success and adapting to it is a key fundamental in pretty much any industry.

Basically, if you're outsold by another company you do not stay the course and hope for the best... you look at why they have outsold you and how you can improve your own sales to compete.


A new company, maybe yes, but not a company that has been successful and has been around since the dawn of time. They obviously have a model that is working enough to be on its 13th and 14 FF title, not to mention tons of other games. Yes an MMO is different from regular games, but mmos are too early in its lifeform to make general rules that you would just have to follow.

Blizzard has one mmo, and yes it is highly successful but it is only one mmo. To change how your business operates just because of an event that has only happened once, is not likely. Like I said there are many other reasons why blizzard has the numbers it has and its more about target markets then anything else. They targeted the right markets and countries with a good enough game.

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You'll still find plenty of former SWG players who will never touch another Sony MMO after the NGE update. I'm not saying that SE has done anything on that scope, but don't underestimate the ability of players to hold a grudge when they feel a game company has screwed them over.


This doesn't matter, their will always be people that will not play your product. This will be the 14th installment in the FF franchise which has sold over 85 million copies (in the FF franchise). I think SE knows how to make a FF game, and in their own way. They have also showed that they know how to manage an MMO for 7-8 years, as ffxi has good longevity. They can expand on this for the new game but I don't see them changing how they operate.

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Not like this past seven days, there haven't. And the difference between the two situations is that FFXI doesn't have official forums, so they designate Premiere Sites (of which this is one) which they officially promote (and allegedly read). In the past four months, Allak admins have written two scathing editorials critical of SE's lack of communication and poor customer service. That's a big difference from a writer on leethuntarpowr.com ******** about an update nerf.


I'm not just talking about a small website and people just crying about nerfs that will happen. I'm talking about editorals (written by admins) as well on big websites like ten top hammer (not as big as allah but yeah) about WoW and many problems. I'm not talking about just some kid thats mad his job got nerfed either, i'm talking about well written editorals. Both playerbases has their own issues with both games.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 6:48pm by HocusP
#110 Aug 03 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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A new company, maybe yes, but not a company that has been successful and has been around since the dawn of time. They obviously have a model that is working enough to be on its 13th and 14 FF title, not to mention tons of other games. Yes an MMO is different from regular games, but mmos are too early in its lifeform to make general rules that you would just have to follow.


GM would like to speak to you.

edit: the car company GM, not a game GM. just incase it wasn't obvious.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 7:26pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#111 Aug 03 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
A new company, maybe yes, but not a company that has been successful and has been around since the dawn of time. They obviously have a model that is working enough to be on its 13th and 14 FF title, not to mention tons of other games. Yes an MMO is different from regular games, but mmos are too early in its lifeform to make general rules that you would just have to follow.

Blizzard has one mmo, and yes it is highly successful but it is only one mmo. To change how your business operates just because of an event that has only happened once, is not likely. Like I said there are many other reasons why blizzard has the numbers it has and its more about target markets then anything else. They targeted the right markets and countries with a good enough game.


You're talking up Square's long and established history of offline games, then downplaying Blizzard's experience like WoW was the first game that they published. Blizzard dealt with online customer service in Warcraft I, II, III, Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft before WoW was released. On the other hand, XI is SE's first foray into online gaming.

"Targeting the right markets and countries" had very little to do with it. Much more important was the experience of listening to their players and communicating with them. Despite what you and that other poster are trying to claim, that's not a bad thing.


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This doesn't matter, their will always be people that will not play your product. This will be the 14th installment in the FF franchise which has sold over 85 million copies (in the FF franchise). I think SE knows how to make a FF game, and in their own way.


True, there will always be people who refuse to play your game, but the difference between an online and an offline game is that a company's customer service can influence that decision in an online game, while it is irrelevant in an offline game.

Crappy customer service or no, I will pick up FFXIII. I appreciate SE's long tradition of making entertaining offline RPGs, and once I buy it, my interaction with SE regarding that particular game is over. I'm much more wait-and-see on FFXIV. They have a history of making a creative MMO, but also of not listening to their players, and of terrible customer service. It remains to be seen which will win out in XIV.


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They have also showed that they know how to manage an MMO for 7-8 years, as ffxi has good longevity. They can expand on this for the new game but I don't see them changing how they operate.


Then they're setting an artificial ceiling on their potential playerbase, IMO.

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I'm not just talking about a small website and people just crying about nerfs that will happen. I'm talking about editorals (written by admins) as well on big websites like ten top hammer (not as big as allah but yeah) about WoW and many problems. I'm not talking about just some kid thats mad his job got nerfed either, i'm talking about well written editorals. Both playerbases has their own issues with both games.


Fair enough. Let me just finish up with a Blizzard rep post regarding recent issues with WoW, and leave it to you to compare it to the resounding silence from SE over everything that's happened in FFXI in the last month:

Wryxian wrote:
Recently there has been a number of extended maintenance periods for certain realms. Some of these we informed you about in advance and some we were unable to until during the actual maintenance period. We want to take the time to explain the reasoning behind these extended maintenance periods, and also those that will need to occur in the future.

These extended maintenances are directly linked to the message we posted in early July about our investigations in regard to instance capacity and our plans to implement hardware modifications to achieve positive change for your play experience. As we said we would do in that message, we are now informing and updating you of our progress.

These modifications are typically a two stage process, requiring two lots of extended maintenance for each group of realms being worked on. For the realms listed below, the first stage was completed successfully on Wednesday the 15th of July during a pre-announced extended maintenance period.

On Wednesday the 22nd of July we also began to complete the second and final stage of this process on the affected realms. However, we encountered unforeseen difficulties in implementing the modifications. We were left with two options; either to further extend the maintenance period well into the evening and thus the busiest playing hours, or to take just a couple of extra hours to roll back the changes so that the realms could be back up and playable quickly. Since we did not want to disrupt your ability to play the game during the prime time, we decided on the latter option.

Since the final stage of these modifications did not complete successfully, we will need to do a further extended maintenance for the realms listed below. This is currently planned for the next maintenance period on Wednesday 29th of July. Because of this, we wish to inform you in advance that the realms listed below will again experience extended maintenance as we implement changes that we believe will bring positive change for your play experience, especially in regards to the ability to enter dungeon and raid instances.

After these modifications are implemented successfully, we aim to post up a feedback thread so that you can share with us your thoughts on how they have affected your play experience. At that stage, we will greatly appreciate it if you are able to help us with your feedback.


http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=10222123450&sid=1

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 7:46pm by SEforPrez
#112 Aug 03 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
HocusP wrote:
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From a company standpoint, that is a sad business model. Learning from others success and adapting to it is a key fundamental in pretty much any industry.

Basically, if you're outsold by another company you do not stay the course and hope for the best... you look at why they have outsold you and how you can improve your own sales to compete.


A new company, maybe yes, but not a company that has been successful and has been around since the dawn of time. They obviously have a model that is working enough to be on its 13th and 14 FF title, not to mention tons of other games. Yes an MMO is different from regular games, but mmos are too early in its lifeform to make general rules that you would just have to follow.


I'll let you in on a little secret known only to about 3/4 of all people who ever played FFXI: FFXI is the red headed stepchild in the FF stable. FFXI does not represent a successful standard that SE should be comparing new projects to if they want those new projects to be successful. Quite a lot of people who still play FFXI are up front about the fact that they play because they have friends who still play, or they play because they've invested so much time into it already that walking away would be more painful than logging in for another miserable experience. They don't like the content paks coming out. They don't like the way SE treats their customers. They're sick of the grind. The only reason they stick around is because it's familiar.

The announcement of FFXIV in conjunction with this latest epic botch job courtesy of SE customers service and public relations has put the second to last nail in FFXI's coffin. The game is dead...the people who have left it know, SE knows, even the moogles know. The only people who don't know it yet are the ones who still cling to the faint hope that after 7+ years the people calling the shots for FFXI will finally get a clue. They won't. The only hope FFXIV has at this point is for the devs to create a clear distinction for thmeselves between them as the FFXIV project team and the twits botching FFXI.

If I've never seen any sort of home in my life and someone shows me a grass hut, I'm going to think it's pretty **** cool. Shelter from the elements...easy to maintain. Hey, that's some good stuff. Never mind that it it's temporary, fragile, and not all that efficient. Oh, and you have to go outside to poo. But still, I don't know any better, right? I mean...I've been living under rocks up to that point...this grass hut stuff is like...amazing. Until someone shows me a modern home with indoor plumbing. FFXI is a grass hut. FFXIV needs to be a modern home. That means you don't get to keep the flimsy walls and the shovel by the door to bury your ****.

Get with the times.
#113 Aug 03 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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If I've never seen any sort of home in my life and someone shows me a grass hut, I'm going to think it's pretty **** cool. Shelter from the elements...easy to maintain. Hey, that's some good stuff. Never mind that it it's temporary, fragile, and not all that efficient. Oh, and you have to go outside to poo. But still, I don't know any better, right? I mean...I've been living under rocks up to that point...this grass hut stuff is like...amazing. Until someone shows me a modern home with indoor plumbing. FFXI is a grass hut. FFXIV needs to be a modern home. That means you don't get to keep the flimsy walls and the shovel by the door to bury your sh*t.


Yeah well it is a grass hut that has done much better then a lot of modern MMOs. I know this is the part of the thread where you say why the other modern MMOs have failed, but it doesn't even matter to be honest. The fact is ffxi has done better then a lot more modern mmos, period.

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I'll let you in on a little secret known only to about 3/4 of all people who ever played FFXI: FFXI is the red headed stepchild in the FF stable. FFXI does not represent a successful standard that SE should be comparing new projects to if they want those new projects to be successful. Quite a lot of people who still play FFXI are up front about the fact that they play because they have friends who still play, or they play because they've invested so much time into it already that walking away would be more painful than logging in for another miserable experience. They don't like the content paks coming out. They don't like the way SE treats their customers. They're sick of the grind. The only reason they stick around is because it's familiar.


It was a successful game and still is a successful game. You don't know why people still stay around for the grind but I think some of them points are fair. I mean I don't see it as a bad thing though, the community (or your friends) should be a reason to stick around or quit. But, also, if they just play for their friends and they hate the game (or tired of it), why don't they and their friends just play another game together. Wouldn't that be much better, you and your friends play another game together, a game that you all actually like. Instead of staying around in a game you don't like just to be with your friends.

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The announcement of FFXIV in conjunction with this latest epic botch job courtesy of SE customers service and public relations has put the second to last nail in FFXI's coffin. The game is dead...the people who have left it know, SE knows, even the moogles know. The only people who don't know it yet are the ones who still cling to the faint hope that after 7+ years the people calling the shots for FFXI will finally get a clue. They won't. The only hope FFXIV has at this point is for the devs to create a clear distinction for thmeselves between them as the FFXIV project team and the twits botching FFXI.


This may very well be true, hey I thought ffxi was going to die back when I quit. I just find it ironic that as soon as the game was announced one of the first questions that was asked was "Whats the future of ffxi". This shows their are many people that care and its more then just caring because they put work in. They know as well as everyone else that everything eventually dies. But still, the future of ffxi question keeps getting asked in every interview. Their must be some interest if every interview I saw, that was one of the questions and you could just see peoples reactions. Its the same company and I believe the people that worked on CoP directly working on the game (If i'm not mistaken).

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"Targeting the right markets and countries" had very little to do with it. Much more important was the experience of listening to their players and communicating with them. Despite what you and that other poster are trying to claim, that's not a bad thing.


This had everything to do with it, if you don't market your product to the right people for your product then it won't do as well. That is more important then anything else, you can have a great game and great customer service but if its not in the right market to the right people then it won't do as well. I believe WoW has 5-6 million korean players and thats a market that SE is not in. If half your subscribers is in an untouched market (or untouched by SE) then it plays a huge role in the success of a game.

SE just does not sell their games (or at least their mmos) to the koreans (or chinese) so that is one huge market they will not be in. So, Based on this recent chart WoW has 6.5 million subscribers that SE will not even have access too, based on SE reasonings. That is huge and just shows they is not all about money and conduct business in their own way.



Edited, Aug 4th 2009 12:10am by HocusP

Edited, Aug 4th 2009 12:22am by HocusP
#114 Aug 04 2009 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread got completely derailed about 2 pages ago.

When we all agreed that ultimately we would like a good storyline that didn't make us wait around, that rewarded players for progression, and was in our dream MMO.

Then it evolved into a ***** fest about how both blizzard and SE have let us down.

They are both going to let us down again, I guarantee it.

But FFXIV might be fun in the meantime.
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#115 Aug 04 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Here's what bugs me about RL time constraints.

You finish the quest at 12:01 AM JP time. In game, that's approximately a month game time before you can do the next step.

Your buddy finishes the quest at 11:59 PM JP time. In game, not even a game hour goes by before he can do the next step.

So, in RP terms, the NPCs hop right on whatever they need to do for your buddy, while as far as you're concerned they drag their feet for weeks and weeks.

Waiting "X game days" is semi-annoying but RP-relevant. Waiting until JP midnight is just arbitrary and a speed bump.
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#116windexy, Posted: Aug 04 2009 at 5:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I choose to believe this is why they are used not because they wanted the story to appear longer.
#117windexy, Posted: Aug 05 2009 at 7:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I know a lot of programmers who would punch you in the face for saying such stupid things.
#118 Aug 05 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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I know a lot of programmers who would punch you in the face for saying such stupid things.


Go tell a modern artist, poet or broadway actor that... see how far that gets you.

Seriously, tell me how a programmer working on a battle system is anywhere near comparision to a painter, sculptor, poet or actor? What greater meaning is there to defining strikes as doing <x> damage? What inspiration is to be had in the viewer by seeing a damage range get modified by a specific set of conditions?

whatever helps your friends sleep at night.
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#119windexy, Posted: Aug 06 2009 at 6:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're an idiot.
#120 Aug 06 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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You're an idiot.


Nerd rage inc.
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#121 Aug 15 2009 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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That is your opinion. Personally, I think it is best to grow and build upon other companies good ideas. Newton said it best i suppose.


I guess so. To me, creating new features is better than just making old features 'bigger and better'. Or rather, do both instead of just copying everything.

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The original intent of the game was very similar to that of the average mmo of the time. They broke from the mold in that they allowed and encouraged solo play to get to endgame, aside from that they were very cookie cutter in their endgame design.

Since breaking from that (and truly as you have said about SE, blizzards expansions are not similar and in fact they change their structure rather drastically) they have doubled (or more) their subscription rates. One can then infer that they have made a better game, as more people want to play it then originally. Therefore you can conclude that they steered the course of the game in a correct direction. Not the direction you like, but that is one person out of however many million.


You missed my point. The devs had a vision of the direction of the game, which they later abandoned because it wouldn't have made them 'enough money'. They're not creating content to fulfill their vision of the game, they're creating it for the purpose of milking as much money as possible.

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While SE is not as pronounced in their direction shift as blizzard originally was, they still have shifted things quite a bit. Solo content for one is a good indicator.


But how they shifted the game is important to note. Besieged and Campaign, while being solo content, still had the group factor included in them. SE didn't fully abandon their original intention of making an MMO with group based content in mind.

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The people who work in the business should be concerned about keeping their jobs and supporting their families.

A company hires you to make money for them, not to express your artistic fancies.


If the devs are good, those artistic fancies are the ones that make the company most money. Taking the easiest route available gets no support from me.

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Easy. Battle systems can be broken down into <auto attack> <special 1> <special 2> <etc> all with related cool downs and effects. Making a battle system from there is simply a numbers balancing act.

The story / lore developers then add names to the attacks and build the reasoning behind them.

The art department then makes the attacks look flashy and nice.

The latter two are important, but not critical to the function of the game. Having the system be balanced and effective is much more important than coming up with a nice name for the attack or having the animation look flashy.

That is why i believe that battle mechanics and balancing are not artistic. The core of the system is mathematical in nature.


There are other kind of battle systems than <auto attack> <special 1> <special 2>. You can't just change the battle system of FFX to the one of FFXII without some kind of artistic innovation. Or Final Fantasy Tactics' battle system to the one in Last Remnant. Of course the core of the system is mathematical, but without innovations every battlesystem will be the same. Is it turn based? Active time battle? How much strategy is included? Will there be some form of cooperation between players? Is it based on reflexes or rather thinking and planning?

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Depends on the situation. The easiest way to do things is to simply adjust current abilities and damage calculations - thus keeping the potential for interference and unbalance to other classes minimal. Simply put, if a 10% dps loss needs to be corrected, adding damage to current abilities which in total add 10% dps is much nicer for balance in general than coming up with a new flashy ability.

If i am not mistaken as well, that sam buff disrupted balance in the game pretty massively.


Why is it much nicer in general?

The sam buff's brokenness was the fault of coders, not the guy's who created the abilities.

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That statement really does not have anything to do with my observation. Tell me how the starving artist approach is a good business model? Tell me why should a team of developers never consider the enjoyment of their player base over their original intent / ideas?

You know why blizzard incorporates certain features or addons into the game? Because they see the demand for them. These things boost player enjoyment. Why does that bother you so much?


The original intent and ideas should take the enjoyment of the playerbase into consideration.

Some players want to see new features instead of 'bigger and better' of old features. This 'starving artist' approach is exactly the approach I'm speaking of. Some people are afraid of new and prefer the same old in a shinier package, but some want to experience new things in MMO's and Blizzard's method of copying everything isn't giving those kind of players what they want. If some company went for the 'starving artist' model, those kind of players would surely try their game and get sucked in by the freshness of it all.
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#122 Aug 15 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Trying to play the victim here isn't going to earn you kudos. Stop pretending people are rating you down just because they disagree with you. Either choose to ignore ratings altogether like most of us do or accept that maybe--just maybe--you were being rated down because your points are genuinely bad and without much merit.

Begging for rate ups and whining over rate downs isn't exactly the epitome of cool.


I do ignore the ratings- why else would I still be posting? Why are you thinking that I do care about them in any way? I'm saying that the rating system sucks, that is all there is to it. I'll continue to ignore it from now on too.

Of course you can say that I wasn't rated down just because people disagreed with me, but you don't have much basis on your point there. Prove my points genuinely bad and I'll agree with you. So far, all you've done is said pointless things without any proof to them.

If I begged for rate ups I'd basically say what people want to hear, rather than things that in my opinion are right. Right now I'm basically saying "you're wrong" to about 90% of posters here, which is why my karma is what it is. Shows how silly people are sometimes ;) (and yes, sometimes majority of the people are wrong- just look at all the people who believe in fantasy stories from 2000 years ago and /facepalm).

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:28pm by Hyanmen
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#123 Aug 15 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Interestingly enough, the people who don't have Scholar status within their first 100 posts or so generally never get it.

For what it's worth, I've rated you down before many times because I recognize that you're someone who adamantly rejects good points without reason and continues to provide bad arguments. I don't always disagree with you, but even when we agree it's not always because your reasoning is sound.

And that should say something, because there are plenty of people who I encounter that I disagree with and never take notice of. And I admit when someone makes a decent counterpoint, whether I agree with it or not.

What I'm saying is, you have to be the debate equivalent of a fallacy factory for me to recognize you as someone who should be rated down.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#124 Aug 15 2009 at 5:49 AM Rating: Decent
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For what it's worth, I've rated you down before many times because I recognize that you're someone who adamantly rejects good points without reason and continues to provide bad arguments. I don't always disagree with you, but even when we agree it's not always because your reasoning is sound.


That, of course, depends on the person. Even the 'good points' that KacesofCaitsith has brought up have some flaws in them, and while I usually find something to say about every point he makes, that doesn't mean that I completely disagree with him.

Your general opinion is also a huge factor in what you may find a 'good point'. It's harder to find something bad to say about opinion you find 'right' from what I've noticed. You need someone else to that thinks differently to point the flaws out for you. BUT, for me to accept those flaws, I need some kind of valid basis or proof- just saying things isn't going to make me believe you.

Like what you said about me rejecting good points and providing bad arguments- I simply can't believe what you say if you don't provide any example, just like Allegory saying "You have been proven wrong" without any basis to his words. I'll believe what I think is right, and I actually change my opinion very easily, but if I find a flaw in the argument I will continue to point it out until the 'right answer' has been found. At that point it's only a matter of accepting that fact, even if in the end I've been wrong. Too many times I see people, rather than trying to find the right answer, put more emphasis on being right themselves (I sometimes do this, too- ain't denying it) rather than knowing what really is right, even if it means that you'll have to accept being wrong about your earlier opinion.

Anyway, what I think is that those bad arguments are actually you not wanting to know what is really right. Of course I'd need an example from you to prove myself, so right now what I say is as meaningless as what you're saying.

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#125 Aug 15 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with "your kind" of debater is that you don't seem to understand that just because you can keep yammering doesn't mean you're saying anything new, valid, or meritorious.

I mean, you give me any topic and any position, no matter how absurd. Using the rhetorical tactics you're prone to, I could argue that point forever. I could argue that our one true god is a vampire unicorn from Saturn and never let you convince me otherwise. I could do this while making it -look- like I was actually making valid points and arguments, but that any intelligent person would quickly recognize as *********

Just because you can continue to debate a subject and provide counterpoints, doesn't mean that you're not full of ****. And until you realize that not everything is a matter of opinion and perspective, and not every observation is valid even if true, you will never be able to recognize your own *********

It's kind of like asking a five year old to recognize the difference between a diamond and a piece of glass.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#126 Aug 15 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with "your kind" of debater is that you don't seem to understand that just because you can keep yammering doesn't mean you're saying anything new, valid, or meritorious.

I mean, you give me any topic and any position, no matter how absurd. Using the rhetorical tactics you're prone to, I could argue that point forever. I could argue that our one true god is a vampire unicorn from Saturn and never let you convince me otherwise. I could do this while making it -look- like I was actually making valid points and arguments, but that any intelligent person would quickly recognize as bullsh*t.

Just because you can continue to debate a subject and provide counterpoints, doesn't mean that you're not full of sh*t. And until you realize that not everything is a matter of opinion and perspective, and not every observation is valid even if true, you will never be able to recognize your own bullsh*t.


I am not the one to say that everything is a matter of opinion. I actually discourage this kind of thinking; what I'm looking for, after all, is the right answer. If everything was only an opinion, there wouldn't be such a thing.

I argue because when someone says something I disagree I'll first of all try to convince the guy that my point is right, but at the same time try to make him convince me that he is right. I don't argue just for the sake of arguing- there's gotta be a meaning to it. Either the guy I argue with realizes that he's wrong, or I realize that I am wrong. Win/win. However, when the arguer doesn't care about what's right and instead cares about who's right, that's when both sides end up yammering and repeating things. And those kind of debates never end well, since who wants to 'give up' and 'lose' the argument after all?

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 2:28pm by Hyanmen
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#127 Aug 15 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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However, when the arguer doesn't care about what's right and instead cares about who's right, that's when both sides end up yammering and repeating things. And those kind of debates never end well, since who wants to 'give up' and 'lose' the argument after all?


Did I basically tell you the same thing not that long ago? I know I was on to someone about that.

Well, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. Unfortunately, it seems to me that you're too often on the "wrong" end but unwilling to be wrong.

Personally I don't rely on other people to convince me that I'm wrong. I try to do that myself first so that when I open my mouth I can do so with confidence. When you decide to defend a position you are yourself unsure of, you often start at the end of the maze and work your way backwards. Great for mazes, bad for arguments based in reality. After all, "non sequitur" means "does not follow," not "does not lead." When you try to work backwards through an argument, you will inevitably get to a beginning ("proof" that you're right), though if the ending was wrong, the beginning will be purely fantasy.

Something to think about.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#128 Aug 15 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Of course you can say that I wasn't rated down just because people disagreed with me, but you don't have much basis on your point there. Prove my points genuinely bad and I'll agree with you.

I have. You have no interest in hearing that you're not right. The majority of people in this thread have pointed out that your points are weak, and you refuse to believe them. You just don't want to believe you might be wrong on this topic, and I have no interest in trying to convince someone who doesn't want to listen.

You aren't actually discussing the the topic with anyone. You've already made up your mind and have no interest in changing it. You're merely using other posters as an opportunity to disguise your monologue as a conversation.

Practically everyone here has told you that your argument is weak or flawed. While it's possible that everyone else but you is wrong, does probability favor that situation or the situation where you're too stubborn to admit being wrong?

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 10:32am by Allegory
#129 Aug 15 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I have. You have no interest in hearing that you're not right. The majority of people in this thread have pointed out that your points are weak, and you refuse to believe them. You just don't want to believe you might be wrong on this topic, and I have no interest in trying to convince someone who doesn't want to listen.

You aren't actually discussing the the topic with anyone. You've already made up your mind and have no interest in changing it. You're merely using other posters as an opportunity to disguise your monologue as a conversation.


Again, you're just saying things without any basis to them. Either show me where I refuse to believe anything (that has proof or examples, and not just long sentences of "u wrong becuz i say so") rather than making valid points, or stop posting since you're not contributing anything to the thread and let those who actually try to prove me wrong handle the arguing.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 3:34pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 3:34pm by Hyanmen
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#130 Aug 15 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Did I basically tell you the same thing not that long ago? I know I was on to someone about that


Yes, however you were mistaken about who actually has this problem. If the guy I argue with decides to go this route, I have 2 choices; to follow him on the road of idiocy, or quit the argument and move on. Unfortunately I often decide to use the 1st option rather than 2nd, but that really is the fault of the opposite side that the argument went the way it did, not mine.

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Well, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. Unfortunately, it seems to me that you're too often on the "wrong" end but unwilling to be wrong.

Personally I don't rely on other people to convince me that I'm wrong. I try to do that myself first so that when I open my mouth I can do so with confidence. When you decide to defend a position you are yourself unsure of, you often start at the end of the maze and work your way backwards. Great for mazes, bad for arguments based in reality. After all, "non sequitur" means "does not follow," not "does not lead." When you try to work backwards through an argument, you will inevitably get to a beginning ("proof" that you're right), though if the ending was wrong, the beginning will be purely fantasy.


People aren't perfect. You can try look for bad points in your opinion as much as you want, but you'll miss something, and you need other people to point those flaws out for you. Of course we're all sure that our views are right when we start arguing, but if you find your opinion wrong after all you should accept it, rather than try changing subject, resort to personal insults or something just as silly.

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#131 Aug 15 2009 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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You've been arguing about arguing for so long that I forgot what you were arguing about.
#132 Aug 15 2009 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanamen wrote:
Either show me where I refuse to believe anything (that has proof or examples, and not just long sentences of "u wrong becuz i say so") rather than making valid points, or stop posting since you're not contributing anything to the thread and let those who actually try to prove me wrong handle the arguing.

This is going to be your reply each time. I can show you as many examples as I want, but you're jsut going to tell me I haven't proven anything and that you're still waiting for me to show you an example where you won't admit you're wrong.

Here is a small example
KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Hyanamen wrote:
Blizzard does what the playerbase wants as much as possible. It's just horrible.


From Ghostcrawler in a community Q&A:

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Ghostcrawler: Almost all of the top raiding guilds considered the death knight to be overpowered as a tank and the only real option for many of the Ulduar hard modes. While the community isn’t always right about everything, they are right a lot, and in this case we think the evidence is overwhelming.


When you deal with such a hardcore playerbase - the epitome of this being people who get paid to play through content - listening to informed and factual complaints is a smart move.

Kaces pointed out where you were wrong.

Let me guess, your opinion of how horrible WoW is because Blizzard listens to the playerbase is based entirely on secondhand knowledge?
#133 Aug 15 2009 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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This is going to be your reply each time. I can show you as many examples as I want, but you're jsut going to tell me I haven't proven anything and that you're still waiting for me to show you an example where you won't admit you're wrong.


Of course. When you show me an example, I can show you if you've proven anything or not. As for your example..

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Kaces pointed out where you were wrong.

Let me guess, your opinion of how horrible WoW is because Blizzard listens to the playerbase is based entirely on secondhand knowledge?


He misunderstood why I think what I think about Blizzard. Player feedback on glitches and balance issues is important, and Blizzard should listen to players on that subject. However, fixing glitches and balancing abilities isn't the same as creating content. I agreed with what Kaces said, but it wasn't even my point (and I wasn't really specific in what I said, so it's my fault that he got the 2 things confused).

WoW isn't horrible, who has even said that? It's a quality game. I just don't agree with how the devs handle their game, which is why I said it's horrible (the way the devs handle the game, not the game itself).



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 4:10pm by Hyanmen
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