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#1 Jul 28 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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I think they should scrap the subjob system. It would help with the overall job balance, it wouldn't make the level cap as concrete (which I know people have mixed opinions about), it would more clearly define job roles, and I'm sure there's other things that I'm not thinking of. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the system to a degree, but it can present certain problems.
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#2 Jul 28 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I think the subjob system makes the game stand out much more from other mmorpgs and it gives players the freedom to play a job however they wish. Sometimes there are situations where having a subjob is nice. Subbing thief for treasure hunter at certain times, subbing black mage to warp yourself, subbing white mage to help cure other members as a black mage incase bad stuff goes down, and also to teleport yourself players. There are many things that the subjob system make possible and that's a huge part of what makes ffxi unique and hopefully, will make ffxiv unique as well. ;)
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#3 Jul 28 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I enjoyed the sub job system as I mained 3 jobs that could make use of a variety of subs and take on different roles. However, I believe that they can (have?) come up with a new system that doesn't use sub jobs that is better and still unique from most MMOs out now. I would love to see it back, but wouldn't be dissapointed to see it go. From what they've said about FFXIV so far, I think it will be gone though.

It would be interesting to see a poll of FFXI player base on whether or not they want sub jobs in FFXIV. I bet it would be split fairly evenly.
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#4 Jul 28 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Well the job system is coming back, but "it will be different".

So they're probably scrapping the subjob system but will allow you to some how make a main job not just that job. As in you'll be able to acquire abilities/spells from other jobs acting as a subjob. At least that's how I think it will go. You can probably mix and match them as well. Basically, FF:T to some degree.
#5 Jul 28 2009 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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I'll get the 2x4s...


I really enjoyed the subjob system. My only qualm with the system is that there were clearly superior subjobs. The abilities granted by the subjob no longer felt like the subjob, but instead felt abilities attributed to the main job. Part of this was SE's fault (A PLD w/o a provoke ability, seriously SE?) but a lot of it was the playerbase rejecting people who wanted to do what they wanted to do. You have to accept the situation, though, as it is impossible to make a highly customizable gameplay system where each unique player is equally important and viable.
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#6 Jul 28 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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It might help if we separate what was good about the SJ system from what was bad. The system could be better, without a doubt, but subjobs did certain things well.

Basically, the whole appeal of the job system (besides the freedom of changing classes at will) is the ability to mix and match traits of different jobs to create something new. This is what I want them to preserve about the subjob system.

The flaws with it -- lack of flexibility, the timesink of having to level a bunch of extra jobs, etc., I could do without.

I hope they can come up with something that fixes the problems without throwing away the good stuff.
#7 Jul 29 2009 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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Personally, imo, the sub-job is a good restraint for them going crazy with the level cap. Without it, there would be over half the balancing issues erradicated. That said I was always happy with a 75 cap, I'd rather not grind up to 200.
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#8 Jul 29 2009 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
I hope they can come up with something that fixes the problems without throwing away the good stuff.


Agreed. The flexibility of the SJ system was great. However, I'd like to see a system where you can work on and accentuate aspects of your main job from your main job, rather than being required to level separate jobs altogether. If I have to level BLM again, I'll scream and/or cry.

ditx wrote:
That said I was always happy with a 75 cap, I'd rather not grind up to 200.


Agreed here, as well. I really like that FFXI has had a static level cap for a long time, and I really hope that FFXIV launches with a similar fixed "level cap" mechanic. Provided it's done well (endless "sideways" character advancement, for example), of course.
#9 Jul 29 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Agreed. The flexibility of the SJ system was great. However, I'd like to see a system where you can work on and accentuate aspects of your main job from your main job, rather than being required to level separate jobs altogether. If I have to level BLM again, I'll scream and/or cry.

It's a tricky issue. I think there's a lot of value in getting people to try out multiple jobs, especially if the game is highly group based and you need some understanding of what your fellow players are doing. And as I said above, I think the strength of the job system is in combining traits and abilities of multiple jobs.

But it was probably a bit out of hand in FFXI. The grind some people had to go through to level some jobs was just harsh. If you wanted to be, say, a BRD/WHM, you had to level BLM to 18, get your subjob, level WHM/BLM to 30, unlock BRD, then finally get to play the job you wanted (eventually coming back to level WHM some more). I knew more than a few people who simply gave up and quit the game when they saw how daunting that path would be.

In some past FF games, like Tactics, you could switch jobs at any time while maintaining your level, so you could just play alternative jobs long enough to unlock the skills you needed. It also helped that you could pick and choose the ones you wanted, rather than plowing through a bunch of useless skills before you reached what you needed.

I don't know if that's a good idea for an MMO, mind you. The jobs are much more involved, and you probably shouldn't be able to jump into another job at a high level without earning your way and learning the ropes. It would also take away a lot of the replayability that comes from returning to old spots with new jobs.

But I'm sure there's a compromise somewhere.
#10 Jul 29 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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When I joined this game back when I saw "My Life in Vana'diel" in GMR all I wanted to do was play summoner. Little did I know I was in for 140+ levels of white mage.

I would much rather they focus on making the main job be all that it can be rather then dealing with balance issues of various subjobs.


Edited, Jul 29th 2009 11:59pm by Redyoshi
#11 Jul 29 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Subjobs did make FFXI unique, but it really is a system plagued with innate problems.

1. The necessity of redundant leveling. To just play the game normally you had to level two jobs. If you ever wanted to try another subjob, then a significant time investment was required of you.

2. It is largely inflexible. For most jobs there were very few viable options. Whm almost always subbed blm. Thf almost always subbed nin. and even within the options you had they didn't offer much flexibility. A Pld is a tank, and no subjob can change that. a Whm is a support character, and no subjob can change that. A Drk is a DD character, and no subjob can change that. Subjobs were one of the most limiting options system of any MMORPG.

3. Balance is a nightmare. When adding a new ability to a class the developer has to not only look out whether it will be broken for that class, but whether it will be broken for any class in the game. It gains the problem of making the level cap almost entirely unmovable, and tweaks for classes at lower levels a very precarious change.

Based on SE's commentary about the new growth system I think it is quite unlikely we will see subjobs, and I believe that is for the best.
#12 Jul 29 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Please no more sub jobs.

One of my friends in game wanted to be a Dark Knight. So he leveled WAR (which he absolutely hated) to 18, got the subjob quest then leveled MNK to 18 for his WAR. Next he leveled WAR to 30 unlocked DRK and was finally able to play it. Then he realized he would need THF as a subjob (This was back when people still did skillchains and magic bursts) but in order to level theif he would need NIN as a sub because people would not invite a THF/WAR... So basically he had to have the following levels just to play DRK to end game (This was before Treasurse of Aht Urghan):

WAR 37
THF 37
MNK 18
NIN 18 ( He later leveled this to 37)


Its way too much for someone that JUST wanted to be a DRK. The sub job system did have some interesting points to it but it was actually more of a deterrent for people actually playing the game.

It would be nice for them to make complete jobs without having a sub job make up for poor class design.
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#13 Jul 29 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Default
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The sub job idea as a whole was really interesting, and probably intended to add a whole new variety to the main job system.

It ended up being a fail, requiring leveling on jobs that people may have had no interest in whatsoever, and redefining the main job roles.

I hope that the 'idea' of subjobs is kept in spirit, but not in the same manner of execution as FFXI.

IE: having the sort of optional bonuses that the Tactics series provided.
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#14 Jul 30 2009 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I loved the subjob system.

But I wouldn't mind if FFXIV headed into a new direction with single class specializations, which would limit the versatility of all jobs, but at the same time really cement their individual and special roles they play in a party.
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#15 Jul 30 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, I can't see any proof of your suggestion being true in the terms of ANY other MMO I've played. Here's why:

In FFXI, the sub job system allowed a player to customize their job, to an extent. In some ways, this was incredibly important (like a Paladin leveling through the dunes, without a warrior as a sub--not a good idea). Other times, it was less so (A bard. He could help a little with a Whm sub, but that was about it. And most groups I played with just asked them to sub Thf for better drops instead)

So, when we looked at the core functionality of a job, it could change a lot based on the player's needs. A Pld could sub Nin for solo play or certain endgame/higher level stuff if the group was prepared--cases where avoidance or damage-mitigation was better than voke.

This allowed the jobs to function separately, but still fulfill similar roles if necessary (Thf vs DD/Thf post 60).

Now, look at MANY other MMOS. For one thing, they *rarely* even approach the number of jobs FFXI had. Take WoW, which just recently added its 10th class. But, the thing is, that in any given scenario, very few classes ever feel really unique (though Blizz is trying to make this better). Why?

Because one class having one tool made things too annoying, apparently. There is one ability Warriors have had for a long time--Mortal Strike--which reduced the amount of healing recieved by a mob or player (VERY useful in PvE situations that had mob healers, or in PvP).

Know what happened? At least 4 other classes (if I'm remembering correctly) now have an ability that does the same thing. The Death Knight class they introduced? Basically taking the Warrior and Rogue classes, combining them, and tweeking the system a little (probably a lot, but it seems like a little at first glance, like that was their starting point). Every defensive ability the class has is the same as one that existed before it in slightly different forms for another class (say if a Warrior could reduce damage by 35% for 30 seconds, the DK could do it by 40% for 20 seconds or something).

See what I am getting at? The subjob system lets each job be different, to do different things, while still allowing for the core job to have its own personality--to not just feel like you are playing a Drk with different armor.

Was it perfect? **** no. For one thing, I don't think it should have influenced stats. This would have allowed for a crapton more variation (though, it also would have rendered many useless, like Smn).

Furthermore, each subjob should have had at least one distinct and useful ability early enough to make it useful. Even if it was a sub-only ability. Because everyone subbing War, Whm or Blm up until level 30 was boring.

Also, I think there should have been multiple possible mechanics for different things. Like, A Pld subbing Rdm would get hate spikes on shield blocks and parries (that was stronger the longer you went without one), instead of a constant spike every 30 seconds.

I want something like a subjob system in XIV. But I don't think the system will even be "Go to a moogle, change jobs." I'll wait to see what they cook up before seeing if I think the game *needs* this system, or something like it. But, knowing what I know at the moment, I'm hoping for one.
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#16 Jul 30 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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It would be nice for them to make complete jobs without having a sub job make up for poor class design.

That's something I forgot about. The subjob system really allowed SE to get lazy with some of its early job designs. SMN is the obvious example. PLD too -- though in that case it wasn't really poor class design, but incomplete. The job just didn't work in the majority of cases without a certain subjob.

It's hard to blame the subjob system itself for those design decisions, but it certainly made them possible.

Quote:
I hope that the 'idea' of subjobs is kept in spirit, but not in the same manner of execution as FFXI.

IE: having the sort of optional bonuses that the Tactics series provided.

Good example. The "optional" aspect of Tactics' job system was its real strength.

In Tactics, jobs had a few innate traits, but the majority of them -- whether they were learned on your current main job or another job -- had to be manually equipped. What this meant was that you could stick to learning the traits on your main job and equip those as they were needed (providing at least a little flexibility), or you could play multiple jobs and use those same slots to equip traits from other jobs. Sticking to one job might not have been your most effective or most flexible option, but it was viable. I would love to see this in FFXIV.

The other big advantage that comes with this system is the ability to separate abilities and traits from the other baggage of the jobs they come from. If this had been applied to FFXI, you might have been able to equip your DRK with Treasure Hunter from THF, Counter from MNK, and the spell set from BLM. It would have made balancing trickier, but I don't think it would be impossible.
#17 Jul 30 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
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Sub jobs were cool in Final Fantasy XI. I'd like to see them come back, with a few tweeks of course.
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#18 Jul 30 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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A crucifixion is it? Oh well anyway I personally liked subjobs but agree with some other ideas where you have your "main" but depending on paths you choose/ quests you complete you access certain abilities not specific to your job. Then similar to BLU each ability costs a specific amount of points to equip and you get more total points as you level resulting in a means of customisation of your character not yet seen.
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#19 Jul 31 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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The best feature of FFXI is the job/subjob system.

I wouldn't mind seeing the system tweaked or changed, but moving to a system where every level X class Y is the same except for gear would be a huge step back.
#20 Jul 31 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing the system tweaked or changed, but moving to a system where every level X class Y is the same except for gear would be a huge step back.


It's largely that way now, though. Every level 75 WAR is exactly the same except for gear. Every SAM subs /WAR. Every DRK subs /SAM. Every solo DRG subs /RDM or /BLU. Every xp PLD subs /WAR.

In theory the subjob system gives us a lot of options. In practice, we only have a couple realistic ones.

With a system that is more about learning certain traits and equipping them, we might see some people who decide to grow their character in interesting ways that will set them apart from everyone else in their class. If we could learn certain traits of various jobs without being forced to take on all the traits up to level 37 of that job as we do now, people could truly play how they want to without severely gimping their character as they must do now. If a WAR wants to be able to cast emergency cures but isn't interested in being a Paladin, she could do whatever the requirement is to learn a healing ability, and then equip that alongside her main ******* of Warrior abilities. She might have to give up a DD ability to have room for that healing ability, but the loss of one slot wouldn't completely gimp her character as it would in XI, because she has to sub WHM over there and sacrifice a sub that would complement her DD role.

Does that make sense?
#21 Jul 31 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
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It's largely that way now, though. Every level 75 WAR is exactly the same except for gear. Every SAM subs /WAR. Every DRK subs /SAM. Every solo DRG subs /RDM or /BLU. Every xp PLD subs /WAR.


It's not so black and white in reality though. There are the main subs that most players use for certain tasks, but there is also a lot of variety that the subjob system offers.

For example, going all DD may not always be the best way to take when doing certain things. A drk might want to sub /dnc or perhaps /whm, as well as /mnk for those zerg situations where +hp makes a difference. A drg still needs /whm or /sch for reraise if not anything else. Corsair may want to go /rdm for the added MAB for quick draw. SAM can go /Thf if there is a need for extra TA. PLD can choose to go /war to exp if tank is needed, but also /nin for dual wield or /sam for greatsword DD'ing, or even /whm for main healing.

Of course some jobs use just one sub most of the time, but even they have other options for some events (a rdm can go /drk to be able to stunlock a mob if needed, etc). The system could be better, but still I think it's pretty good in the end.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 8:52pm by Hyanmen
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#22 Aug 01 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Default
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The problem i see with this is replacing all the things we would lose without support jobs.

Whether it's damage mitigation, mana regeneration, or just a specific ability. spell, or trait that we want at the time.

Maybe there's a way to get around this somehow, I don't know.

I have heard in other games there are some abilities that you can use on any job once you learn them.
If they did this it would have to be limited somehow and then it would probably be the equivalent of a support job. (with maybe a little more latitude.)

Look at how blue mage spells are set for example; which are set with points.
They might let you chose certain abilities within reason and use them on any job using a similar point system.

Who knows, I just hope we aren't "getting our hopes up" too much.

#23 Aug 01 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:

It's not so black and white in reality though. There are the main subs that most players use for certain tasks, but there is also a lot of variety that the subjob system offers.


I didn't argue that in theory it offers a lot of variety. I argued that in practice there isn't much.

Hyanmen wrote:
For example, going all DD may not always be the best way to take when doing certain things. A drk might want to sub /dnc or perhaps /whm


In Campaign, maybe. A DRK that showed up to an XP party /dnc or /whm would not be highly regarded and might even be called gimp, unless there was a specific need for that DRK to have healing abilities. In that case, the party might have bigger problems.

Hyanmen wrote:
as well as /mnk for those zerg situations where +hp makes a difference.


The average DRK may never see this situation anyway. You are correct that it's a situational sub, but we are talking about the majority not the minority here.


Hyanmen wrote:
A drg still needs /whm or /sch for reraise if not anything else.


No, they don't, and if you do a /sea all of DRG on your server right now the majority is going to be on /RDM or /BLU. Reraise is a pretty silly argument when the other two subjobs offer so much more that would be useful to a soloing DRG.

Hyanmen wrote:
Corsair may want to go /rdm for the added MAB for quick draw.


I don't profess to know a whole lot about COR, but I wouldn't be inviting one to a party who was subbing RDM, and especially not WHM.

Hyanmen wrote:
SAM can go /Thf if there is a need for extra TA.


So /WAR and /THF is a whole lot of variety? Two subs, for one job, for 75 levels. That's my point. There are only a couple realistic options for any given job, and some of them don't even have that.


Hyanmen wrote:
PLD can choose to go /war to exp if tank is needed, but also /nin for dual wield or /sam for greatsword DD'ing


Why would you invite a paladin to a party unless as a tank? Sure if there is no other DD looking PLD is a last resort choice, but it's not usually like that. I can count on no hands the number of times a party leader invited me to a party and said, 'Oh, by the way, you will be DD'ing, what's your GS skill and do you have /SAM?'. It's not realistic, and I did say that the options had to be realistic to be arguable.

And for the record, nobody goes anywhere /nin for Dual Wield. It's done for damage avoidance and Paladin can't really pull off /nin and keeping hate until end game. It wouldn't make much sense in an XP party unless there was a setup ahead of time to put together an SATA and etc, and that's part of my point: certain subjobs make more work for everyone involved and that's why people can't be themselves and use them.

Hyanmen wrote:
or even /whm for main healing.


This I honestly just laughed at. Maybe, if you are a taru you could get away with this, but again we have to talk about realistic options here. If any paladin can say with a straight face that they were invited to a party and asked to sub WHM so they could main heal, I will be extremely shocked.

Hyanmen wrote:
Of course some jobs use just one sub most of the time, but even they have other options for some events (a rdm can go /drk to be able to stunlock a mob if needed, etc)


RDM is an exception to the rule in that it's the one job who truly can be versatile and do just about any role in the game, however, in group situations you still have only the standard subjobs. End game groups want you /drk to stun lock. XP groups want you /whm to heal them. And then there is the ever popular /nin for solo. I have seen some RDM's going /SCH to some things now but most are sticking to the tried and true.

What about SMN? There is only one subjob for those poor guys. /WHM or you might as well just pack it up. The job system is far too dependent on the subjob system, and more to the point, specific subjobs for the main job to be an effective part of a party.


And the final issue is that folks might not even like these jobs that they have to level in order to play their main job effectively. The story of the guy who only wanted to play as Bard keeps coming up, in that first he had to play whm to 30, unlock bard, unlock nin, level whm further to 37, level war to 18, level nin to 37, and then he could finally start leveling bard. Everyone else's stories are pretty similar. A better system would be one in which we play and enhance the main job we have chosen, instead of having to backtrack over and over to level things we don't even like. That's part of the reason XI has such a bad reputation. Is that really what you want for XIV?

As I said, it's a system that was a really good idea in theory, but in practice, fell short of the mark.
#24 Aug 01 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Default
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I am not simply talking about exp subs. There is more to the game than just exping, and those are the situations where the subjobs I listed are good for.

DRG may not need /whm for solo, but in a situation where wiping is possible and erase is required, /whm or /sch would be preferred over /blu or /rdm.

Why are we(you) just talking about the majority, anyway? There will always be the 'best' sub, but situational uses add up in the end, and there are a lot of them in the game for various jobs.

COR can solo a lot of things with Quick Draw, and it's consistent damage also adds up in longer fights (like when dealing with HNM's). The added MAB and some support ability make a difference there. JP's argue that /WHM is actually better sub for COR in exp than /RNG or /NIN is.

SAM can use /DNC, too if he wants some self healing abilities. /NIN is always an option if seigan isn't reliable enough. And let's not forget /RNG either. Almost every job can take advantage of /BST as well. /DRG is respectable sub for DD purposes as well.

You don't need a tank at 75 in exp anymore. That's when PLD goes DD or doesn't go at all.
For events like dynamis /RDM or /DRK is actually even more viable sub than /WAR is for PLD. For solo /RDM is a powerhouse. If you want to lowman something but there's no healer available, there's no reason why PLD couldn't handle the job. Remember how much refresh it can get, and it's max mp can get quite high too with the right gear(800+). No, they won't be asked to heal in an exp party, but for other stuff I don't see why not. Also /NIN is for endgame as you said.

Summoners will laugh at you if you tell them there's only /whm to sub. /sch comes pretty close if not actually beats /whm when it comes to SMN subs.

It doesn't end there, either. PUP's can do impressive things with /SCH or /DRG, Ninjas can make use of /RDM, /RNG, /DNC, /DRK and /PLD. /COR or /BRD buffs can sometimes be more beneficial to the group than enhanced DD capabilities.

I agree that some jobs depend too much on their subjob, but that's really a fault of the job system as a whole rather than subjobs. There's no reason why SE couldn't keep the subjob system while fixing the problems we have now when it comes to some jobs (utsusemi/seigan are too strong, smn main isn't strong/fast enough..).

The other problem you described doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the subjob system either, that's something I wouldn't mind if SE replaced it with better alternative really.



Edited, Aug 1st 2009 3:19pm by Hyanmen
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#25 Aug 01 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Let's hope theirs a Job/Sub-job system at all to wish for changes. So far the only thing we can assume is that our abilities may be base don what weapons and attributes we are using or have available, not so much what Job(s) we are since it was stated their would be less focus on anything like a "job".

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 12:43pm by baltz
#26 Aug 02 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Summoners will laugh at you if you tell them there's only /whm to sub. /sch comes pretty close if not actually beats /whm when it comes to SMN subs.


I think you just made the perfect example of how subjobs were broken in FFXI while trying to prove that subjobs weren't broken in FFXI.

I like the idea, but the way they turned out was crap. I like getting bonuses from having other jobs leveled, and it encourages variety in gameplay. The FFXI system was just broken.

... I can't believe you really tried to use SMN in your argument though... that was just asking to be ignored.
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#27 Aug 02 2009 at 12:40 AM Rating: Default
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... I can't believe you really tried to use SMN in your argument though... that was just asking to be ignored.


Subjob system is actually the only thing that makes SMN at least semi competent, so I'm not sure I get what you mean >_>.
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#28 Aug 02 2009 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally the subjob and multiple jobs per character system is one of the things I've always liked about FFXI. I really don't care for the one job, one character system that most other MMO's use. Its one of the things that kept me with FFXI for so long despite their many other failings.
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#29 Aug 02 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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have SE even said theres going to be a ffxi style job system anyway? i was under the impression it was like a wheel of fortune russian roulette type thing
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#30 Aug 02 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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... I can't believe you really tried to use SMN in your argument though... that was just asking to be ignored.


Subjob system is actually the only thing that makes SMN at least semi competent, so I'm not sure I get what you mean >_>.


Doesn't that seem like a big issue to you? Summoner is the essence of everything that is wrong with the subjob system. Why bother using a summoner at all when the only thing making it "semi-competent" is 37 levels of white mage?

And lol! at the thought of /sch adding anything close to versatility, let alone adding to the summoner job as a whole. It's subbing /whm without access to curaga. If those summoners are laughing they are doing it through their tears.
#31 Aug 03 2009 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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I won't crucify you, OP. I agree that the subjob system is a little much.

I've said for years that it should not be in the game. I have my reasons that I feel this way.

1) When I was leveling THF, if you didn't sub NIN you couldn't get a party. This is due to the mentality that /NIN is the only ubjob that benifits the party. So I do not get to play MY job the way I want, I have to play the way everyone else wants me to.

2) People become waaayy to dependant on thier subjob to play. Imagine if you had to play BST without WHM subbed, PLD without WAR subbed, or SMN without WHM subbed.

3) The subjob system was supposed to let people customize their character and game play style, but what it ended up as was people determining what they believed to be the best subjob for a particular main job and thus the cookie cutter mentality was born.

I would love the just be a THF (and not a sub-par NIN), or a SMN (and not the back-up healer). I mean, imagine a world where WAR was the main tank (due to them having Provoke).

I love that we can change our jobs, I just wish it was just our job and not the cookie cutters idea of our job.

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#32 Aug 03 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Doesn't that seem like a big issue to you? Summoner is the essence of everything that is wrong with the subjob system. Why bother using a summoner at all when the only thing making it "semi-competent" is 37 levels of white mage?


Does that mean that the subjob system is broken, or that the summoner job is broken?

What should be done is to fix summoner main job- there's nothing from with the subjobs system, but the main job system in this case.

And I don't know about you, but SMN's I know have been happy with Sublimation, Regen 2, the strategems and useful spells like Dispel and Aspir. Doesn't sound like "/whm without access to curaga" to me.
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#33 Aug 03 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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From what I've seen (played the game a couple of years back to the point where I had a couple of jobs in the 30's) the subjob system was a great idea that was also fundamentally flawed.

I'd say that the main problem is that the subjobs are nowhere near powerful enough. If the subjobs didn't just enhance your job but also gave you the ability to play the job you subbed decently (although obviously not as good as if you had it as your main job) all subjobs would be useful for pretty much every job. This would've also gone a long way to fixing some of the other problems in the game (ie forming parties when there wouldn't be a healer/tank/support job available).
#34 Aug 03 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Does that mean that the subjob system is broken, or that the summoner job is broken?

That is more of an example of how summoner is broken, but we've already given several reasons why subjobs are broken.
#35 Aug 03 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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Doesn't that seem like a big issue to you? Summoner is the essence of everything that is wrong with the subjob system. Why bother using a summoner at all when the only thing making it "semi-competent" is 37 levels of white mage?


Does that mean that the subjob system is broken, or that the summoner job is broken?

What should be done is to fix summoner main job- there's nothing from with the subjobs system, but the main job system in this case.

And I don't know about you, but SMN's I know have been happy with Sublimation, Regen 2, the strategems and useful spells like Dispel and Aspir. Doesn't sound like "/whm without access to curaga" to me.


I have to rate you up for reminding me on why I shouldn't exaggerate so often.

What I meant to stress was that instead of relying on a subjob to adjust a class, these features should be inherent in the class itself. I'd rather use Fenrir to dispel or carbuncle to regen. As it stands the FFXI summoner spends the majority of it's time pre-endgame (and quite a lot post) relying heavily on it's sub. I leveled summoner pre-WotG but I don't see /sch changing that part very much at all.

FFXI summoners may be happy when they get updates by proxy like /sch. FFXI was designed with a subjob system and that's all they can get. I congratulate them on doing the best with the cards they were dealt but FFXIV is a new game and I want to see summoners who spend the majority of their time being a summoner. Summoner can and should be so much more then what it is in XI.

Now Summoner is kind of my pet peeve but others have already illustrated how the subjob system negatively effects other jobs. It may be fine for XI but it's one thing I really really hope does not make a return in XIV.
#36 Aug 04 2009 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
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If the subjob system negates the need for skill trees then I am happy.

I would much rather (and have done in FFXI) level a few more jobs to 37 to aid my versatility than limit myself indefinitley by picking a preset path.
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