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[Semi-confirmed] Some races revealed + first classes infoFollow

#202 Aug 05 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I don't see a lot of appeal in making crafting non-combat classes that you switch to. What's wrong with just doing those things with your character in their normal gear? It seems silly that I might have to actually switch from an Archer to a Blacksmith if I want to craft something. Can I not just craft something as an Archer? I mean is it really that big of a deal that I change my clothes first?


Cause it's **** boring that's why.

Could it be my dream will come true?

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=124765049517845461

This is making me so very excited I can't even express it in words.

Finally I can be that crafter/gatherer guy that one day will save the world.

ehehehehe
#203 Aug 05 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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The zone screen shots look beautiful. I'm not surprised there are some parallels with the current FFXI zones, it is the same team after all. I don't think that's a bad thing though, it'll be foreign but also familiar.
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#204 Aug 05 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I don't see a lot of appeal in making crafting non-combat classes that you switch to. What's wrong with just doing those things with your character in their normal gear? It seems silly that I might have to actually switch from an Archer to a Blacksmith if I want to craft something. Can I not just craft something as an Archer? I mean is it really that big of a deal that I change my clothes first?


You are what you wield. It's still your same character capable of doing all those things, you just have to pull out the appropriate weapon/tool for the job. And don't tell me you don't put on your Tradeskill +1 clothes (if you have them) when you craft in FFXI.

Besides, you're assuming crafting is going to function on the same everyone-can-do-it level as most MMOs. By making Crafter a distinct job in parallel to categories like Fighter, it's fair to say it will be capable of more than just making stuff to sell on AH. For example, we've already started entertaining the idea of a Blacksmith being able to repair weapons in the battlefield, since we know weapons will degrade with use. If you really want to complain about having to swap gear to fit the role, consider that the devs could force you to lug around an anvil and bellows too (and for all we know, they might!). I mean, that would be more realistic, right?

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 10:05pm by TraumaFox
#205 Aug 05 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
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Am I going to get tomatoes thrown at me if I ask whether I have to wait 90 days to play the Gardener class?


That depends on how this year's tomatoes turn out. :p

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Cause it's **** boring that's why.


And a change of clothes makes it any more exciting?

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You are what you wield. It's still your same character capable of doing all those things, you just have to pull out the appropriate weapon/tool for the job. And don't tell me you don't put on your Tradeskill +1 clothes (if you have them) when you craft in FFXI.


I get that. Thanks for bolding it for me. Yeah, I do pull out my clothes. And honestly, I'd rather not need to. And when I don't need them, I celebrate by not doing it. So why should I be glad that in the future I'll have to do it?

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Besides, you're assuming crafting is going to function on the same everyone-can-do-it level as most MMOs. By making Crafter a distinct job in parallel to categories like Fighter, it's fair to say it will be capable of more than just making stuff to sell on AH. For example, we've already started entertaining the idea of a Blacksmith being able to repair weapons in the battlefield, since we know weapons will degrade with use. If you really want to complain about having to swap gear to fit the role, consider that the devs could force you to lug around an anvil and bellows too (and for all we know, they might!). I mean, that would be more realistic, right?


I've already talked about that possibility elsewhere, and in more detail too.

It seems unlikely that crafting jobs are going to play any important combat roles though, considering that we already know that everyone can do it-- at this point it's just a matter of whether or not SE makes it a seesaw decision you have to make (which apparently they don't even know themselves) and whether or not you spend that login time crafting or fighting. Someone with blacksmithing skills may rarely need to stop and repair a weapon mid conflict, sure, but that hardly warrants an entire change of clothes.

And no, I think considering that one of my central arguments is that forcing players to change gear to smith something is LESS realistic, it's kind of absurd to suggest that it's MORE realistic to force them to carry around an anvil and bellows (which if you'll recall, you didn't use any tools at all in FFXI... just crystals).
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#206 Aug 05 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Default
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TraumaFox wrote:
Quote:
Personally I don't see a lot of appeal in making crafting non-combat classes that you switch to. What's wrong with just doing those things with your character in their normal gear? It seems silly that I might have to actually switch from an Archer to a Blacksmith if I want to craft something. Can I not just craft something as an Archer? I mean is it really that big of a deal that I change my clothes first?


You are what you wield. It's still your same character capable of doing all those things, you just have to pull out the appropriate weapon/tool for the job. And don't tell me you don't put on your Tradeskill +1 clothes (if you have them) when you craft in FFXI.

Besides, you're assuming crafting is going to function on the same everyone-can-do-it level as most MMOs. By making Crafter a distinct job in parallel to categories like Fighter, it's fair to say it will be capable of more than just making stuff to sell on AH. For example, we've already started entertaining the idea of a Blacksmith being able to repair weapons in the battlefield, since we know weapons will degrade with use. If you really want to complain about having to swap gear to fit the role, consider that the devs could force you to lug around an anvil and bellows too (and for all we know, they might!). I mean, that would be more realistic, right?

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 10:05pm by TraumaFox


I think crafting and gathering will be far more complicated and much more advanced in FFXIV that SE labels it as its own class. It will have its own "level up system" with possible limit breakers and "abilities" and also "specialization" in various fields, you might be specialized in making plate armor/leather armor/1 hand sword/dagger.. you get my point. Each specialization in turn might have its specific "abilities" and also you might have a crafting system that is really complex and innovative and will yield a product that have a huge range of quality, depending on your abilities and level and other factors. Maybe the product that you can make has more stages then in FFXI whereas you had only NQ and HQ(+1).

In FFXIV you might have -10 to +10 that’s 20 levels for one item and that requires a very advanced, complex and dedicated crafting system that would need your attention and time, just like a "job" needs a lot of time and effort to max out. I think this is the reason why SE has labeled crafting into "classes". Other MMO’s that have more stages for item quality then the normal 2 in FFXI are for example Vanguard.
#207 Aug 05 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I don't see a lot of appeal in making crafting non-combat classes that you switch to. What's wrong with just doing those things with your character in their normal gear? It seems silly that I might have to actually switch from an Archer to a Blacksmith if I want to craft something. Can I not just craft something as an Archer? I mean is it really that big of a deal that I change my clothes first?

I think you're jumping way ahead of the ball on this one. We really have no idea what it means to have dedicated crafting classes.

It's possible that you can access all of your basic synthing skills by equipping, say, a hammer. Is that so unreasonable? And other skills, perhaps useful in combat, might be unlocked by playing those classes and equippable via various other pieces of gear. Maybe blacksmiths have an ability to temporarily enhance all of their teammates weapons, or give a "resist wear" trait or something, which could be activated by wearing certain shoes.

They wouldn't be making them main job classes if they weren't planning on making them substantial enough to justify it.
#208 Aug 05 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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And a change of clothes makes it any more exciting?


No. It being it's own entity with it's own abilities and what not, will.

Edit: Pretty much what Maldavian is describing.

I like to believe the crafting system will be so in depth that it will require its own class.

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 11:41pm by CupDeNoodles
#209 Aug 05 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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With all this insta job changing, I'm thinking Chocobos will be like private mules, holding gear, crafting items, etc for in-field changing. I hope so, anyway.
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#210Kachi, Posted: Aug 05 2009 at 8:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) See, unfortunately it is anywhere from unlikely to impossible that it will require its own class. The odds fair heavily towards this being a completely separate function from combat in the game. If that's the case, there can't be any real justification for requiring it to be its own class.
#211 Aug 05 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
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No. It being it's own entity with it's own abilities and what not, will.


Wonderful. So we are both glad that apparently the crafting system will be substantially more fleshed out than in XI. Now explain to me how that in any way contradicts what I said about it being silly if we'll have to change our clothes.

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I think you're jumping way ahead of the ball on this one. We really have no idea what it means to have dedicated crafting classes.


I think we have a pretty good idea. We obviously lack a lot of details, but we can be pretty confident that it's not a dedicated crafting class in the sense that it replaces combat classes in battle, and odds are pretty good that it has little to no combat ability (subpar, at best). Other games have dedicated crafting classes where you can't even switch to a new job-- that's your job for the entire game, let alone being able to switch to a combat role just by changing your clothes in an instant. This hints at crafting classes being something you switch to pretty exclusively when you want to craft. And it seems to suggest that you can only craft when you're on a crafting class, which you have to switch all of your gear for (easy as it will apparently be).

So naturally we can assume that gear will play a large part in crafting. To which I offer an emphatic, "meh."

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It's possible that you can access all of your basic synthing skills by equipping, say, a hammer. Is that so unreasonable? And other skills, perhaps useful in combat, might be unlocked by playing those classes and equippable via various other pieces of gear. Maybe blacksmiths have an ability to temporarily enhance all of their teammates weapons, or give a "resist wear" trait or something, which could be activated by wearing certain shoes.


Maybe, but until I hear indications otherwise I feel safe in assuming that this won't be the case. At the very least, I don't think any combat skills you get as a crafting class will justify bringing a crafting class in lieu of an actual combat job. It seems more that the crafting class will in essence be like any other game where you pick a craft and grow it, just that now you have to change your clothes first.

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I like to believe the crafting system will be so in depth that it will require its own class.


See, unfortunately it is anywhere from unlikely to impossible that it will require its own class. The odds fair heavily towards this being a completely separate function from combat in the game. If that's the case, there can't be any real justification for requiring it to be its own class.

Hey, part of me hopes you're right. And if you are, feel free to take gloating rights for the next decade or so. Personally, I can't envision this being much more than a silly and pointless cosmetic nuisance for several reasons. And if you think you can explain a way in which it wouldn't be, I feel confident that I can explain the flaw in your vision.


I think you skipped my post that (might have) explained why SE would want crafting to be labeled as "classes".

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 12:23am by Maldavian
#212 Aug 05 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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Hey Kachi, I figured it out!!!

Its so that crafters and gatherers won't be assaulted by /tells for a party or what not. See in FFXI you can't change to a cooking class, so whatever class your on, might get bombarded with /tells to help with this or that or to party. On FFXIV, you won't have to worry about that cause your job won't be tank or healer, so other people won't bother you with things not related to your job. HAHA

In all seriousness, the crafting and gathering jobs just sound to me like there will be more to them. But! If not, then I'd be asking the same question..... why? Its just a wait and see thing to me. However, I am not a fan of tradeskills or crafting. I hope for something like a HNM guild or some such. I am on an MMORPG to go on adventures and make lots and lots of things dead. I'd rather just get gil from rare drop rates off HNMs or as prizes from doing some quests. In short it will just about kill the game for me, if I have to do a craft or gather things.
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#213 Aug 05 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you skipped my post that (might have) explained why SE would want crafting to be labeled as "classes".


Ah, perhaps. I'll look for it and address anything that might be relevant to what I was saying.

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Hey Kachi, I figured it out!!!

Its so that crafters and gatherers won't be assaulted by /tells for a party or what not. See in FFXI you can't change to a cooking class, so whatever class your on, might get bombarded with /tells to help with this or that or to party. On FFXIV, you won't have to worry about that cause your job won't be tank or healer, so other people won't bother you with things not related to your job. HAHA

In all seriousness, the crafting and gathering jobs just sound to me like there will be more to them. But! If not, then I'd be asking the same question..... why? Its just a wait and see thing to me. However, I am not a fan of tradeskills or crafting. I hope for something like a HNM guild or some such. I am on an MMORPG to go on adventures and make lots and lots of things dead. I'd rather just get gil from rare drop rates off HNMs or as prizes from doing some quests. In short it will just about kill the game for me, if I have to do a craft or gather things.


Hah, well that's certainly one potential use I guess.

I don't think you'll have to craft or gather, if that's any consolation. It seems there will be guild missions that ask you to do those things, but you don't have to take them. I hope for your sake and players like you that you won't be missing out on any good story as a result of that.

I guess my main complaint with the idea is that I would vastly prefer a seamless transition between these abilities. If it's any indication, I'm even less impressed by the decision to bifurcate melee and mage classes in this way. I don't want to have to change all of my gear to cast a single spell. Even if it all plays out well in the gameplay, I'm just not a fan of implementing it in that way. In a game that could allow seamless, fluid character customization, this looks like unnecessary hemlines-- hitches in the gameplay that would probably be better without.

Now I won't have any complaints really if it turns out that you don't -need- to switch classes to carry out these various tasks. If perhaps you only need to change to these classes to -unlock- their abilities, that would be fine... ****, I'll even say "great." But if you have to constantly change your clothes and job just to toss out a cure, or throw on a buff, I'm going to be a little miffed by the inclusion of this silly and pointless step thrown in the middle of it all. Because it will either be too much of a hassle to allow you to create a freeform character that can change roles at will, or it will be so simple that there's no real point other than a ridiculous quick change demo.
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#214 Aug 05 2009 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Maldavian, you were talking about this post?

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I think crafting and gathering will be far more complicated and much more advanced in FFXIV that SE labels it as its own class. It will have its own "level up system" with possible limit breakers and "abilities" and also "specialization" in various fields, you might be specialized in making plate armor/leather armor/1 hand sword/dagger.. you get my point. Each specialization in turn might have its specific "abilities" and also you might have a crafting system that is really complex and innovative and will yield a product that have a huge range of quality, depending on your abilities and level and other factors. Maybe the product that you can make has more stages then in FFXI whereas you had only NQ and HQ(+1).

In FFXIV you might have -10 to +10 that’s 20 levels for one item and that requires a very advanced, complex and dedicated crafting system that would need your attention and time, just like a "job" needs a lot of time and effort to max out. I think this is the reason why SE has labeled crafting into "classes". Other MMO’s that have more stages for item quality then the normal 2 in FFXI are for example Vanguard


I already read it. While you make some good points about a more complex crafting system (I was a very serious crafter in XI, even ran my own crafting LS), and I'll be the first to agree that XIV needs a much more complex crafting system than XI had... none of that requires a new class, fresh with a change of clothes and weapon.

So if you're required to change weapon/clothes to craft, or if it's so important that it's basically pointless to craft without doing so, well, I'm not going to be particularly pleased. Let me put it to you this way.

I don't want to be out in the middle of a zone, in my melee gear, and kill a monster. Then switch into my mage gear and heal and buff myself. Then I see a logging point, so I switch into my loggers clothes and chop up some wood real good like. Then I get a kind of lumber I needed so I switch to my woodworking clothes and craft that up. Then it's back to battle so I switch back into my warrior's gear. Changing my clothes five times a minute, basically. Final Fantasy Dressup Party Online.

And then I get invited to a tea party, so I dress up in my Lightsday best, etc...

What I'm saying is that I'd prefer if my clothes were primarily cosmetic in the first **** place, but if they're going to be so functionally important, I'd really rather not be changing them all the time as a part of the game's design. I'd much rather fight, cast, harvest, and craft, all in whatever clothes I want to wear. And any complexity that changing clothes adds, as we've already discussed to death in another topic (the gearswapping topic for anyone interested), is totally unnecessary. At the absolute least they could make it crystals, or materia, or cards, or jewelry... and give those the effects they were going to give to the clothes. And in doing so, all the game mechanics are there, and you aren't left playing dress up, watching people magically change their clothes all the time.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#215 Aug 05 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I just had a small thought regarding how things could all work in relation to job changing on the fly/sea-saw/whatever, I don't how to put it into words right now.

Anyway, could it be possible that you could still level all jobs to... We'll go with 100 for right now. But you can level all of your jobs to 100, but they limit it by granting access to those last, we'll say (using crafting's sea-saw thing as an example) forty levels with a special weapon/weapons that are tagged so you may only have one to two of them in your inventory at any given time, while the others must be stowed away? So you could hold your elite black mage weapon, be level 100, and still be able to switch on the fly, but you could only switch to a max of level 60 anything else because you can't carry that job's elite weapon as well. They could even give certain weapon tiers different tags so you could only carry two that would allow you to train jobs up to 80 and none to 100, or three that would allow you to train jobs up to 73, and none that would allow you to train up to 100 or 80...

I know I didn't word that all the best, but anyone see what I'm getting at?
#216 Aug 05 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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After thinking it over I don't care about the issues I had with switching jobs at the click of a button perhaps even in mid battle (SE will find a way to limit this so that it will be impratical for larger battle strategies probably like you are weakened upon initially changing and it would only work properly for solo play or something) but now the one thing im more worried about with this system... its a small nitpick but it drove me nuts in FFXI and this just seems like version 2.0 of it... armor swapping and blinking. I absolutely hate armor swapping in FFXI, not because of the utility but I can't stand the constant blink in and blink out of the equipment where it completely breaks the games immersion. The thought of complete job changes for any certain ability or spell brings that tedium to a new level. If that is what they intend, they better make a better seamless blink into equipment than FFXI. It will get old REALLY fast otherwise.

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 2:49am by croythegreat
#217 Aug 05 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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^That is in fewer words basically what I'm saying. And from what we know of the game thus far, there's not even any need to doing it. We could still be looking at blinking through gear on a SINGLE job. We could be doing just as much gear swapping per job, and then have additional switching as we change jobs midstream.

I'm going to try not to think about it until there's more info. I'm just making myself nauseous.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#218 Aug 06 2009 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't like the stuff about changing your weapon/job freely or in the wild, and just becoming a healer when you need heals, etc.
I don't think it's true, though lol

I wouldn't be totally opposed to it if it's a game like Mabinogi when it comes to getting whatever skills you want and everyone can choose to get healing/med skills, but then you're kind of destroying the idea of support classes altogether.


How so? It just means that everyone could heal themselves instead of depending on someone to do it for them. I think it is meant more for the solo ability anyway.
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#219 Aug 06 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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I thought SE was going to put an emphasis on balancing your parties? How will this be possible if anyone can be anything at anytime? Why do you need a healer when everyone can change jobs and heal themselves?
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#220 Aug 06 2009 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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I thought SE was going to put an emphasis on balancing your parties? How will this be possible if anyone can be anything at anytime? Why do you need a healer when everyone can change jobs and heal themselves?


In FFXI, you need to bring the proper roles to the party. In FFXIV, you simply need to bring the right weapons to the party and perform the proper roles as they are needed. In FFXI, this means knowing what you're getting into before you go to tackle something, and even then a party setup might not be ideal. In FFXIV, a group of six will be able to change their setup on the fly to adapt to new situations they encounter.

This is a very crude example given what we know, but say for one battle you go with three melee, two offensive spellcasters, and one healer. This setup seems to work fairly well for what you're fighting, so you just stick to your roles for the time being. Of course you're not going to spontaneously swap weapons and heal yourselves, you want to work on mastering one weapon at a time, and the assigned healer is doing a fine job. But after that battle, you move into another battle where there are more mobs and they are resistant to magic. One of the offensive spellcasters can switch to melee and the other can be a second healer if the party is taking too much damage.

This above scenario is what I believe the devs have emphasized in terms of employing strategy in battles. Obviously that example was very limited in the context of how many jobs and roles there will be, but having to change your role situationally without needing to go all the way back to town is what I predict. I wouldn't get too caught up on the example of switching between melee and healing to solo, that sounds like something which limits your capacity in both areas just like any hybrid job in FFXI. In party situations where everyone can fill a role, I don't think you'll be switching jobs in battle just for the sake of it, you'd stick with the one you're best at and enjoy the most and only change if the situation calls for it.

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 7:04am by TraumaFox
#221 Aug 06 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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The zone screen shots look beautiful. I'm not surprised there are some parallels with the current FFXI zones, it is the same team after all. I don't think that's a bad thing though, it'll be foreign but also familiar.


As long as we don't get "Al'taieulala" as one of the final zones, I'll be fairly happy with this too.

EDit: Rawr scans as found by someone on BG: http://www.ffring.com/news/Final-Fantasy-XIV-dans-la-presse-asiatique-beaa30357c4.html

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 7:37am by Dlaqev
#222 Aug 06 2009 at 4:32 AM Rating: Decent
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the seaside city reminds me of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgtZvn5c4e4
#223 Aug 06 2009 at 5:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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As long as we don't get "Al'taieulala" as one of the final zones, I'll be fairly happy with this too.


Judging by some of the race names, I wouldn't be surprised if every area's name was 20 letters long with streams of consonants and vowels, at least one X or Z mandatory, apostrophe optional but highly recommended.

Welcome to Quel'bindarius, your starting nation! You'll begin your adventures in West Falafelafel and gradually make your way through the Hortuliniboscus Mountains, leveling up as you pass through the Rae'xmoti'reauilol Ruins to finally reach the capital city of Tortellini.

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 10:22am by TraumaFox
#224 Aug 06 2009 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.ffring.com/news/Final-Fantasy-XIV-dans-la-presse-asiatique-beaa30357c4.html

Scans or pics of the whole pages. =) Still kind of blurry, but you can see the size comparison of the races!!!

Not sure if that has been posted yet.

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 12:54pm by putu
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#225 Aug 06 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Default
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^ Thanks putu.
Soooo is that the whole 9 (12) pages?
Anything new?...

Lol funny how they kind of leaked the whole article 0_0

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So from my powers of observation and knowledge of kana..(I know what the symbols mean but not what they say!!! >_<)

UMmm character creation includes eye colors like we wanted.
There's also a lot of interviewing going on... Which i'd love to understand haha.

***** it! Where's elmer?!

Oh yes... There's a small blurb about female Roes and male Mimis (yeah i called em a Mimi for short, wanna fight about it? :D). There's too much kanji in the response >_<

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 3:54pm by Carbi
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Yay!
#226 Aug 06 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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... to finally reach the capital city of Tortellini.

I'll be sure to bring my wife. She loves Tortellini! Smiley: lol
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#227 Aug 06 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Carbi wrote:
Oh yes... There's a small blurb about female Roes and male Mimis (yeah i called em a Mimi for short, wanna fight about it? :D). There's too much kanji in the response >_<
It just points out that they haven't been announced this time, but that doesn't mean they can say that they won't be added either. Just trying to read that little tiny box with tiny, blurry characters has killed my eyes though.
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#228 Aug 06 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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So, let me get this straight.

Under the pretense of fostering familiarity, SE decided to reuse FFXI's character designs in FFXIV.

...but they've tossed their decades-old cannon out the nearest window and instead opted to name their classes generic western D&D derivatives?

I-uh...what?



I'm in the same boat you are, Carbi. About all I can reliably pluck out of that blurb is "Rugadein no onna" (Roegadyn Woman) and "Mi'qote no otoko" (Mi'qote Man) in the question part of it because the text is bigger and less blurry.

I think the first kanji in the second line is "Now" and the second is "Time/Frequency" or "Moon/Month" if that helps you out any?




/edit: :::reads TheMore's post:::
Ah, thank you. That was driving me nuts.


Edited, Aug 6th 2009 6:12pm by Zemzelette
#229 Aug 06 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So, let me get this straight.

Under the pretense of fostering familiarity, SE decided to reuse FFXI's character designs in FFXIV.

...but they've tossed their decades-old cannon out the nearest window and instead opted to name their classes generic western D&D derivatives?

I-uh...what?



Seriously... I was thinking the same thing. I'm with-holding judgment till more concrete info comes out but the main appeal for me playing FFXIV was to play as RDM, BLM, and BLU again. This whole everyone can be everything during battle thing um.... yeah i will have to see this in action. There's really not enough info from me to even form an opinion either way. This could be the coolest game ever or a complete flaming pile.

Hopefully things will get cleared up soon.
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#230 Aug 06 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Yea, I just keep coming back to it in my head, over and over again. Doing away with the classic final fantasy jobs? Huh? And you are right. Why retain the familiarity of character designs and yet not the classes? I mean I know that they wanted to make an all new Final Fantasy, but they also said they knew that the job classes were a big draw to Final Fantasy as well. If they knew this, then they should have known that this includes not just the concept of their job system, but the actual jobs as well. Well....... whatever. I don't count it as a game killer for me, but it is really annoying me.

On another note, with the current job categories, it seems like they are being too rigid. What about hybrid classes? Does this mean that to make something that resembles a red mage you would learn fencer and some mage skill seperately, but switch between the two durring battle to have the same general feel as a rdm? It gets even more complicated with other jobs like blu. I don't know maybe they will just put it into a category based on what the combat skills are mostly made of. Or maybe certain magics will just be turned into abilities like ninjutsu and blue magic. I would prefer the latter, because having to switch between 2 different combat styles just to get the feel of a classic job class seems a bit lame. Another of those wait and see things I suppose.

Lastly, lets talk about technology jobs. Things like engineer chemist and what not. I would like to see more jobs along these lines. I would especially be interested in this for alternative nukers (read: non-magic nukers)such as Cannoneer. In you face black mages. lol. Just kidding BLMs, you know I love you

Note: Any jobs I mention are just examples, I don't know what the actual new jobs are. I am just using examples to reference.

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#231 Aug 06 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I've probably said this twice in every thread by now, but what I'm hoping is that you'll basically just change jobs to learn new abilities from that job. Then after you "master" those abilities (as you have done in games like FFIX, FFT, FFTA), you can set them to whichever job you want.

Maybe you can pick a melee job and a mage job, then raise them to whatever extent you want, and set abilities to the two that you pick. You can switch between those two jobs freely by changing weapon/armor. Well, I'm hoping for something along those lines. But I'm not holding my breath. At this point it could really go either way for me.
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#232 Aug 06 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the tactics Idea of unlocking jobs. from reading about the importance of equipments and weapons, it could be as simple as the equipment determines and limits what skills you can use at that given point in time while equipped; and the weapon determines what mode u are in and what classes skill will be "leveled".

for example you want to learn magic u have to equip mage staff (mage mode). want to learn warrior abilities you have to equip sword (warrior mode). but the equipment u have on, has slots that determine the abilities u can equip and what level abilities u can use. if this is the case then I can see things being very balanced.

This is why they are stressing the need for inventory and armor combinations.

for example (pld build) you level up whm and warrior abilities to the same levels

then equip sword for warrior mode, u need the defense stats for tanking so u equip warrior body which give us slots for 4 warrior abilities then a mage hands or feet that allows u to equip a cure and a buff. see where I am going?

annnd ! by getting by getting white magic and warrior skill to say level 50 you get access to wear templar armor that allows u to equip both warrior and whm skills on the same equipment slot and equip or weapons that allows us to learn artifact (pld) skills. . basically unlocking the job pld.

i guess thats why they said the level of the equipment is more important.

sorry for babbling. bored at work



Edited, Aug 6th 2009 7:36pm by Takiwaki

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 7:37pm by Takiwaki

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 7:38pm by Takiwaki
#233 Aug 06 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Does anyone know if someone translated the full article?

It's been on the net for a while now and yet... no news..
I'm especially interested in the interview that spans a majority of the pages.

-----
Like some of you gus have already concluded, I think everything SE just showed us (as far as races go) is what we're going to get.
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Yay!
#234 Aug 06 2009 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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I read the ability to switch between jobs as meaning you can effectively change to a limited degree (or at least I hope it will be). For example, you are playing as an Archer and Damage Dealing. You pull hate and a mob starts towards you and maybe you need to tank for a moment. Well you know that you wont be a great tank but you can possibly parry a few blows by shouldering your bow and pulling out a couple of swords or daggers giving you access to several defensive abilities. By doing this you have quickly changed roles but are still actively an Archer. Now next fight your healer gets low on MP so you pull out a staff and are able to heal at a greatly diminished level (compared to the dedicated healer), fulfilling the need for a moment.

I hope that this is how the 'job' changing system is geared to work. If its anything like, "Im a swordfighter! Take THAT!! Now Im a BLM, Firagazzz!! OMG now Im a PLD LULZ!!!" that seems really stupid and boring to me. It has nothing to do with needing to 'level' multiple jobs but if I want to be a DRG or the equivalent, I wouldnt want to need to change into a healer or any other job, I would have been that job in the first place.
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#235 Aug 06 2009 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
On another note, with the current job categories, it seems like they are being too rigid. What about hybrid classes? Does this mean that to make something that resembles a red mage you would learn fencer and some mage skill seperately, but switch between the two durring battle to have the same general feel as a rdm?


Going back to this quote from the 1up interview:

Quote:
"The way I see it, the player can define how his own job works," says Komoto. "For example, if you have the Swordsman skill, that's enough to let you play by yourself, but if you've also raised your Sorcerer skill enough to unlock that skill's healing magic, that'll make solo play a lot easier for you."

It sounds to me like he's talking about accessing those skills simultaneously on "Swordsman," similar to a subjob. My vague impression is that abilities are attached to equipment and, once they're unlocked, you can have skills from multiple classes at one time by equipping gear from different jobs.

Of course, we probably shouldn't examine the exact wording so closely, since we're dealing with second-hand translations. But that's the sense I got, anyway.

It's also possible that there will be a dedicated Red Mage job path within the "Caster" archetype. I'm not clear yet on whether changing your weapon changes your entire archetype, or just your job path within that archetype. If it's the latter, then equipping a sword as a Caster might put you down a RDM-like pathway where you unlock a variety of different skills along with a few "RDM" exclusives.
#236 Aug 06 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Well from this news I came to this conclusion

4 types of "jobs"

Depending on weapons , first one will be the phyicals, tanks, Melee DPS, Range DPS, etc

Depending on Weapons, second one will be the Mythicals, Mages, healers, support casters, etc

Depending on Tools, third will be crafters, Blacksmiths, goldsmiths, bonecrafters, etc

Depending in Tools, the fourth will be the raw material gatherers, Woodsmen, Miners, fishermen, etc

SO, basically, this will play out JUST like FFXI. With the main difference that you can change your jobs on the FLY. Instead of heading back to the Moghouse.

Most likely we will be able to use the other skills/ability from other "jobs" likely there will be a penalty to it.

Come to think of it.... can we pick up one of those small people and shake them up a bit...

Kinda have this must abuse thingy going in my head.
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#237 Aug 06 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It sounds to me like he's talking about accessing those skills simultaneously on "Swordsman," similar to a subjob. My vague impression is that abilities are attached to equipment and, once they're unlocked, you can have skills from multiple classes at one time by equipping gear from different jobs.

Of course, we probably shouldn't examine the exact wording so closely, since we're dealing with second-hand translations. But that's the sense I got, anyway.


No, I'm glad you shared that thought. One of the things that has me offput by the explanation they've given so far is that it so plainly bifurcates magic and melee. Personally I'm still just not a fan of changing equipment to change your ability set. Crystals obviously are going to play a large part in the game again, so why not learn your abilities from crystals and change them to use different abilities? Hey, that sounds similar to another system SE used that people really liked...

I mean, so far it's not looking like they're going to offer traditional jobs, and "Red Mage" may in fact be impossible.

What we might hope for is the ability to master certain magic as we train our mage, then set a certain number of those spells to our swordsman job.

Or we may see absolutely no hybrid jobs at all, or very limited ones.

So far, it could still go either way. Given the framework set forth, I could create an amazing game as well as a relatively awful game.

*And I do think it's worth pointing out that Square Enix is perfectly capable of botching this up badly. Yes, they are responsible for some of the greatest classics that the industry has ever seen. They have also been responsible for lackluster -major- titles like FFXII and FFTA2 in recent years. And they've failed on one MMO already... ever heard of Fantasy Earth: Zero? (if not, for good reason)

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 12:24am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#238 Aug 06 2009 at 11:35 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
It sounds to me like he's talking about accessing those skills simultaneously on "Swordsman," similar to a subjob. My vague impression is that abilities are attached to equipment and, once they're unlocked, you can have skills from multiple classes at one time by equipping gear from different jobs.

Of course, we probably shouldn't examine the exact wording so closely, since we're dealing with second-hand translations. But that's the sense I got, anyway.


No, I'm glad you shared that thought. One of the things that has me offput by the explanation they've given so far is that it so plainly bifurcates magic and melee. Personally I'm still just not a fan of changing equipment to change your ability set. Crystals obviously are going to play a large part in the game again, so why not learn your abilities from crystals and change them to use different abilities? Hey, that sounds similar to another system SE used that people really liked...

I mean, so far it's not looking like they're going to offer traditional jobs, and "Red Mage" may in fact be impossible.

What we might hope for is the ability to master certain magic as we train our mage, then set a certain number of those spells to our swordsman job.

Or we may see absolutely no hybrid jobs at all, or very limited ones.

So far, it could still go either way. Given the framework set forth, I could create an amazing game as well as a relatively awful game.

*And I do think it's worth pointing out that Square Enix is perfectly capable of botching this up badly. Yes, they are responsible for some of the greatest classics that the industry has ever seen. They have also been responsible for lackluster -major- titles like FFXII and FFTA2 in recent years. And they've failed on one MMO already... ever heard of Fantasy Earth: Zero? (if not, for good reason)

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 12:24am by Kachi


Even SE is very unsure if FFXIV will succeed or not that is why they have said that FF14 will have a very long and serious beta period that might change the game completely (at the end of it). The information that has come out so far indicates that this game will almost be like a single player ORPG. If that is the case then this game is pretty much doomed.
#239 Aug 07 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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Even SE is very unsure if FFXIV will succeed or not that is why they have said that FF14 will have a very long and serious beta period that might change the game completely (at the end of it). The information that has come out so far indicates that this game will almost be like a single player ORPG. If that is the case then this game is pretty much doomed.


<-- You seem to have missed the baseless conjecture thread over that way.
#240 Aug 07 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Default
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TraumaFox wrote:
Quote:
Even SE is very unsure if FFXIV will succeed or not that is why they have said that FF14 will have a very long and serious beta period that might change the game completely (at the end of it). The information that has come out so far indicates that this game will almost be like a single player ORPG. If that is the case then this game is pretty much doomed.


<-- You seem to have missed the baseless conjecture thread over that way.


Hehe, no but seriously, for example; where is the talk about how party works? How many members in a party can you have? How big is the raid size? What does the endgame look like? The only information we have so far is that if you solo then this game is perfect for you. Group/raid/end game is all eluded into a dark could (it might even not exist).
#241 Aug 07 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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Hehe, no but seriously, for example; where is the talk about how party works? How many members in a party can you have? How big is the raid size? What does the endgame look like? The only information we have so far is that if you solo then this game is perfect for you. Group/raid/end game is all eluded into a dark could (it might even not exist).


We don't know too much about FFXIV, but apparently you haven't been paying much attention to what we do know. The e3 interview emphasized that solo play will be possible and enjoyable, but party play is still going to be the most important and central mechanic, and there's no doubt that playing with a party will offer a more robust experience than just playing alone. By no means has it ever been said that this game will be "perfect for you" if you like to play solo, just that the game will accommodate the solo player better than FFXI did.

Sure we don't know about party specifics, but you're definitely in the minority if you think FFXIV is going to be a solo-based game. I'm not sure what you read to make you think that, because the only information we have about soloing is that 1) You can do it, and 2) You can sustain yourself while soloing by switching jobs. To compare, we know the Guildleve system of questing will encourage you to pick up parties to go on leves with you, and players are also encouraged to combine leves to make big multi-quest campaigns. You're crazy if you think the same people who made FFXI are going to abandon the core mechanic of community and friendship that made it work so well in the first place.

You erroneously say that the only information we have is that it's a solo-centric game, completely bypassing all the info that's come out since e3 apparently, yet you want info on endgame and raid mechanics? That's like asking how Dynamis works without knowing anything about FFXI's battle system. You're completely out of your mind, friend.

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 9:45am by TraumaFox
#242 Aug 07 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about anyone else, but I see having the same **** races as an insult to us. "Oh, you're not good enough for us to think up some new .dats for the collection of stats and gear you're going to be parading around in for the next six to twelve months." ****, the slight description leads me to believe the stats on the races are similar between XI and XIV. (Mithras having high DEX, Tarus having high INT, and Galkas having high uselessness VIT*.)



* **** you, I'm not using the "new" names. They're the same ******* things.
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#243 Aug 07 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know about anyone else, but I see having the same **** races as an insult to us. "Oh, you're not good enough for us to think up some new .dats for the collection of stats and gear you're going to be parading around in for the next six to twelve months." ****, the slight description leads me to believe the stats on the races are similar between XI and XIV. (Mithras having high DEX, Tarus having high INT, and Galkas having high uselessness VIT*.)


I'm with you. They really should have gone with the more traditional fantasy fare of human, elf, dwarf, orc, and some animal-type race.

Oh wait.
#244 Aug 07 2009 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about anyone else, but I see having the same **** races as an insult to us. "Oh, you're not good enough for us to think up some new .dats for the collection of stats and gear you're going to be parading around in for the next six to twelve months." ****, the slight description leads me to believe the stats on the races are similar between XI and XIV. (Mithras having high DEX, Tarus having high INT, and Galkas having high uselessness VIT*.)


Considering this is SE we're talking about, I don't think they've had any trouble with creating new races if they wish and flexing the amazing creative juices they seem to have. However, they're also fans of recurring themes as we all know, and I don't think there's any respect involved in their decision making at all to be honest, saying that would be saying like having moogles recurring is a disrespectful act. They're nostalgic for one thing and recognisable.

I can see what you mean by saying it, but when looking at the apparent effort that's gone into the game so far (from what I can tell) I'd say it's more disrespectful to slate them for their choice of races.
#245 Aug 07 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dlaqev wrote:

Considering this is SE we're talking about, I don't think they've had any trouble with creating new races if they wish and flexing the amazing creative juices they seem to have. However, they're also fans of recurring themes as we all know, and I don't think there's any respect involved in their decision making at all to be honest, saying that would be saying like having moogles recurring is a disrespectful act. They're nostalgic for one thing and recognisable.

I can see what you mean by saying it, but when looking at the apparent effort that's gone into the game so far (from what I can tell) I'd say it's more disrespectful to slate them for their choice of races.


Maybe it's not disrespectful, but it certainly is disappointing. When I opened that page and saw races that I could immediately name without even thinking about it and nothing else, I just shook my head. I don't understand why they keep pushing the 'We wanted to keep races that were familiar to existing XI players" when existing XI players are the ones asking for new races.

It shows how out of touch they are with the players - no poll was ever conducted to my knowledge asking whether we even wanted that level of familiarity with the new game. The assumptions that SE makes about their playerbase has bitten them in the *** before, and it will continue to do so if they don't start making some changes.

I'm not saying that they haven't put any work at all into the game because they obviously have, but think about this:

When you just recycle old content as was clearly done in at least the case of the races, how much effort can you really be given credit for? If all this game is going to be is a face lift for XI, they should have just given it to XI.
#246 Aug 07 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I understand that, I was pretty disappointed having been promised this fresh new MMO (That they said wasnt even a FF, though Im not holding that against them) and I can see why people would feel like this is a waste being as they've gotta drop FFXI (Or at least pay for another game if theyre gna play 14), only to find it to be a very similar game (as far as we know).

It does seem to be a sort of bad omen for FF14 as well, I hoped they'd perhaps put more effort into community relations, and I suppose we can still hope for that. Of course, the fact there's not official forum [yet?] doesn't bode so well either.
#247 Aug 07 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought SE was going to put an emphasis on balancing your parties? How will this be possible if anyone can be anything at anytime? Why do you need a healer when everyone can change jobs and heal themselves?


I don't think many of you realize how many people quit FF XI because they couldn't find the right set up to party with. With this approach you don't ever again have to worry about finding a party to play with no matter what job you choose.
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#248 Aug 07 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about anyone else, but I see having the same **** races as an insult to us. "Oh, you're not good enough for us to think up some new .dats for the collection of stats and gear you're going to be parading around in for the next six to twelve months." ****, the slight description leads me to believe the stats on the races are similar between XI and XIV. (Mithras having high DEX, Tarus having high INT, and Galkas having high uselessness VIT*.)


Hey, I'm really hopeful that they'll have five new races in addition to filling out the genders on the old ones. It won't be the first time SE ever cockteased us if they do.

Realistically though, I'll think SE did good by their standards if they give us male Mithra and a couple of new races. Simultaneously I won't be completely surprised if they give us nothing. Utterly dumbfounded, but in a foreseeable way.

Quote:
I don't think they've had any trouble with creating new races if they wish and flexing the amazing creative juices they seem to have.


Pah! I have sampled their juices! Their juices are mediocre at best!

Quote:
It shows how out of touch they are with the players - no poll was ever conducted to my knowledge asking whether we even wanted that level of familiarity with the new game. The assumptions that SE makes about their playerbase has bitten them in the *** before, and it will continue to do so if they don't start making some changes.


It astounds me because it's not even as if they have to pay a firm to conduct marketing research. This is a product where people will happily tell you what they think, and they'll do it online where it will cost you next to nothing. SE could have run a new poll every day for the last five years to get a feel for what players wanted, and they would have gotten tons of excellent player feedback as well as a huge following of people who had to check daily to see what kinds of things SE was considering. It would have been an incredibly effective marketing tool.

I mean, all these kinds of things seem so plainly obvious to me. Maybe I should try to break into the industry at the top. Get some investors and produce my own MMO. Aside from having neither the money nor the technical or business know-how, I'd be a huge success!
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#249 Aug 07 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Default
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As a programmer, theres alot more to what the 'player wants'. SE has an entire game to develop, and more than likely its on a schedule. And sure we can all say don't release it until its ready, as a business you can only do that so much before a product has to come out to keep revenue. Usually everything is divided up into tasks and done in order. Thats why SE can't always get what everyone wants in, and thats why sometimes they do and it just takes a while. Keep in mind they have an entire game to make, and whatever we are asking right now in the forums will likely never make it. (Until expansion or update).

When it comes to the races they either already have them implemented and haven't told us, or their is no new races planned and they didn't think the user base would be that upset about it(From the interviews it seems they thought we would want to make avatars like our old ones). And lets keep in mind no where on the galka and mithra does it say they are gender exclusive. FFXI bothered to say they were...and usually websites are designed so that new commers can look at them and get an idea. and the fact that gender exclusion wasn't mentioned intentionally may be a sign there could be some. But then again it could be poor oversight on their part. But it could equally be that they thought we didnt really want new races and never made them. And at this point, its unlikely they have the time to do it. (Leaving it to an expansion).

So what to keep in mind: SE isn't finished with the game, so they can't just start plugging your ideas into it. They have to finish what the orginally planned before they can even get our critisim. This why you will see people preview games and critics make obvious statments about things they don't like but to find out the final product never did anything to fix it, its probaly because they never got to that point.
#250 Aug 07 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Maybe it's not disrespectful, but it certainly is disappointing. When I opened that page and saw races that I could immediately name without even thinking about it and nothing else, I just shook my head. I don't understand why they keep pushing the 'We wanted to keep races that were familiar to existing XI players" when existing XI players are the ones asking for new races.

It shows how out of touch they are with the players - no poll was ever conducted to my knowledge asking whether we even wanted that level of familiarity with the new game.


How about this: I would not consider buying the game if they had eliminated the XI races. This game is now a day-one purchase for me, and I am nervous about not being able to properly recreate my XI character as is (mixing tan skin with white hair).

As you said, no poll was conducted of which you have knowledge. Perhaps they do know their playerbase. It's possible they conducted a poll in some form, and even if no poll was given, you cannot claim the XI players (I'm assuming you're referring to a majority of some sort) wanted new races unless you yourself have the data to back up such a claim.

If you have a problem, petition Square or wait until launch to see what they have planned. I understand you are disappointed, but it sounds like a lot of rage/whining with no focused effort to change it to me.

Edit: This is also a response to GAxe's post.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 2:51am by KierraXIV
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#251 Aug 11 2009 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
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even though it is so similar in a certain aspect in character, and area colors red,blue,green, which reminds me of flag colors of sandi, bastok, and windy, i think it look pretty cool. in fact the similarity between it kinda make me more at ease and comfortable. :o i think the only issue for me is what faction to join cause the design artwork of it all seem exciting. ;_; **** think im going trio in this game.
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