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Ul'dah, Limsa Lominsa, or Gridania?Follow

#1 Aug 07 2009 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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Which of the three starting areas so far interests you the most?

For reference:
Ul'dah (desert)
Limsa Lominsa (port/water town)
Gridania (forest)

I've always leaned towards forest settings, so it'd be Gridania for me.
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#2 Aug 07 2009 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Just from the descriptions and the artwork that's been provided so far, probably Gridania. I've always been all about that nature vibe. I'm probably biased by being a Windurstian at heart, but that's my 2 cents.
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#3 Aug 07 2009 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Limsa Lominsa for sure, besides the name, it looks absolutely amazing to me.
#4 Aug 07 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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I like Gridania too, I'm thinking this is the starttown for elzen?
since i'm gonna be a male Elzen I'll be starting in Gridania
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#5 Aug 07 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I dunno yet , I like they way all of them look I guess it will come down to the race I pick. hmm lalafell or roegadyn. choices choices
#6 Aug 07 2009 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Ul'dah (desert)
Limsa Lominsa (port/water town)
Gridania (forest)

Interestingly enough, these kind of titles accompany the names on the JP site. The sea capital, sand capital, and forest capital.

I probably like Limsa Lominsa the most so far, but they all seem interesting and, at least so far, more inventive than the three nations of FFXI.
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#7 Aug 07 2009 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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and the cities look so massive compared to the nations in FFXI.
#8 Aug 07 2009 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I would like to be by the water but I will start at whichever city humans "belong". If I was to start out by the port would I keep getting attacked by pirates? No thanks.
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#9 Aug 07 2009 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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I'll pick Ul'Dah. I was born and raised in the south west united states, so the desert is home to me. I always felt at home in Bastok. I also think it's an amazing looking city.
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#10 Aug 07 2009 at 5:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bastok.
#11 Aug 07 2009 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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All the city states look amazing in the artist renderings! Hard to choose.... I think Limssa Lominsa is my favorite though. I like the mini islands and sea.
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#12 Aug 07 2009 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Ul'dah (desert)
Bastok.
Kachi wrote:
Limsa Lominsa (port/water town)
Windurst.
Kachi wrote:
Gridania (forest)
San d'Oria.

Crap, is there anything original in this game?
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#13 Aug 07 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Quote:

Kachi wrote:
Ul'dah (desert)
Bastok.
Kachi wrote:
Limsa Lominsa (port/water town)
Windurst.
Kachi wrote:
Gridania (forest)
San d'Oria.


I would argue that Gridania is more like Windurst. And I think they alluded to Lalafells livings in Gridania.

Also, I wonder if Miqo'te will live with the Lalafells...
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#14 Aug 07 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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After reading the new info on the NA official site, I'm sure that Limsa Lominsa may be a mix of Lalafell and Hyur. The site had this to say about the Lalafell:

"The Lalafell were originaly a group of agriculturalist inhabiting the fertile island of the South Seas. With the introduction of transmarine commerce they soon found their way to Eorzea via trade routes. They are now one of the more populous races and are well established throughout the region, though they remain averse to cold climates.

The short, rotund builds of the Lalafell belie an incredible agility, and their seemingly feeble legs are capable of carrying them long distances over any terrain. Many amoung them are also known for possesing highly developed and cunning intellects.

The Lalafell place a great deal of significance on the familial bonds, but are by no means unfriendly to outsiders. This is evidenced by the fact that they continue to share prosperous relations with all of the other races of Eorzea."

They came from overseas to the South, as the Roegadyn are a seafaring race coming from the North. Kind of like hulking vikings, and pygmy islanders.

On subject: Thinking of Ul'dah, but that depends on more info I'd want to see before making any decisions.
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#15 Aug 07 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Gridania by far. I hated windurst to no end, the annoying music, big city and could have probably made me quit the game so i will try a relational city to what i liked.

I originally started in bastok it was an awesome city, decent music and i like Galka... but Gustaburg was boring and desolate. The enemies were bland and uninteresting too.

I did like the caves around bastok, but those were on suplimental.

So we will see, i will probably make a test char in each city for about an hour and decide which. A smaller, more accessable and nicer city will win me over. Something ridiculously large like windurst will not in any way.
#16 Aug 07 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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I think Ul'dah looks pretty awesome but I dont care to live in the desert, so I may choose to go with Limsa Lominsa. All three designs look amazing though so in the end it may be difficult to choose.

As far as others saying that the 3 city-states = Bastok, Windurst and San D'oria I'm going to have to disagree. Bastok was in an arid region but it wasn't a desert. Also the cultural influences of both Bastok and Ul'dah appear to be quite different.

Limsa Lominsa does not equal Windurst, Limsa Lominsa is a port city built out over the ocean, Windurst is a port city closely integrated with nature, and then again all cities in FFXI had a port.

Finally Gridania is located in a forested area similar to Sandy, but San d'oria is a kingdom made of high walls and stone, while Gridania is more of a woody-nature like feel.

Some people have pointed out similarities in the landscapes between FFXI and FFXIV as well, but really theres only so many different environments in the world. I'm pleased with the designs of the cities so far and I'm excited to see whats next ^^
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#17 Aug 07 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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TraumaFox wrote:
Bastok.

I lol'd

I'm going Roegadyn so I might choose Ul'dah, then again maybe Gridania.
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#18 Aug 07 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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What about Ishgard, "bastion atop the mountains"?

Quote:
Calling the area home are several independent city-states, the most notable being Limsa Lominsa, bustling port and pirate hub; Ul'dah, a desert city rich in mineral wealth; Gridania, nestled deep within an ageless wood; and Ishgard, bastion atop the mountains.
#19 Aug 07 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgtZvn5c4e4
I bet this was the early stages of Limsa the port city lol Kinda looks like the artwork.

Idky but this came to mind: maybe each city/area will be beneficial to a certain class....or maybe have specific clans. Like Gridania (sorcerer), Limsa Lominsa (fighter.....there's pirates? lol). I can't wait for TGS or another event for more info XD.
#20 Aug 07 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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I guess what I gather from the reading is Ithere aren't any major city-states that is going to be race specific as we've seen in ffxi but i could be wrong.

From the text taken off the website lalafells are populous and are spread throughout the region so we'll see them everywhere, Mi'qote are slim in numbers, so i'm guessing if we do see them it'll be in small little towns or villages in the city states, and the Roegadyn live in and around Limsa, i'm assuming thats hyur/roegadyn primarily, but some live in Ul'dah mountains
#21 Aug 07 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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I love altepa but I hate bastok, oh the conflict


I'll prolly just go for whatever is the elf homeland
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#22 Aug 07 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Crap, is there anything original in this game?


Oh come on, don't you think that's kind of a stretch?

Bastok wasn't -really- a desert. Windy was more of a pond town where Limsa Lominsa is an ocean town, and it was more foresty. San d'Oria was more of a castle town than a forest town, and it was a completely different kind of forest.

I'll be quick to criticize glaring similarities between the two games, and atmosphere was certainly not the worst thing they could steal from XI if they were to do so. By all means pull no punches, but let's give credit where credit is due.

A lot of people seem to be speculating that Roegadyn will be from Ul'dah. Doesn't it seem more likely that they'll be from Limsa Lominsa, given all the talk of them working on ships and as pirates? Then there will probably be the faction that lives in the caves of Ul'dah as well.

What I'm suspecting is that there won't actually be a great deal of direct relationship between race:nation like there was in XI. Maybe no starting rings this time around, and much more diversity within the towns' NPC populations.

Quote:
What about Ishgard, "bastion atop the mountains"?


Both its absence from the "City-State" dropdown, and its background point to it being a non-starter nation. It's going to be the biggest city most likely, and it's been ravished by the invasion. So a Jeuno or an Aht Urghan.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Aug 07 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I was just gonna mention that they list a fourth mountain city Ishgard in the introduction. Incidentally, I think you are all the ones who are stretching the information to match FFXI just because that's what we're used to. All SE has said is that there is a water city, a forest city and a desert city. That's pretty standard RPG fare since the beginning of time. I don't think they have called them "starter cities" and they certainly haven't hinted at one being a central Jeuno-esque one. It may be true but don't jump the gun just yet. Would you prefer three desert cities? Maybe a different climate? Taiga city ftw?

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 1:10pm by Filian
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#24 Aug 07 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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I find it awesome they mentioned joining factions and not to be afraid to do so, do you think certain factions will be citystate based? I have a hunch you can learn new titles (jobs) or abilities from these factions of course again i could be far off base
#25 Aug 07 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Limsa Lominsa. By far. It's my perfect type of city, and the artwork looks absolutely beautiful. Gotta love a city by the sea!

Plus I'm thinking of Roegadyn this time around. I think it's strongly hinting at Reogadyn mainly living in and around Limsa Lominsa. But it does also look like there won't be such a strong connection between race and city-state this time around.
#26 Aug 07 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like Gridania so much that I might just play whatever race starts there. My absolute favorite race in EQ was Wood Elf and I loved Kelethin simply because it was in the forest.
#27 Aug 07 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I will be playing as a Roegadyn (Galka), starting in Limsa Lominsa. Since the Roegadyn are supposedly fisherman and pirates, it seems like their starting city would be the one on the sea with a focus on port trading, fishing, and pirates.
#28 Aug 07 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it's interesting how people are picking their starting city as if FFXIV will let you, while some people seem to have the idea that your race and clan selection will automatically place you in one. I think I'm going to roll with the latter idea, even though not all race descriptions link them with particular areas, there are a few.

You get to pick your nation in FFXI because pretty much every race lives in every nation, it's just a matter of racial balance being different between the populations. FFXIV seems like, depending on race and clan, there can be a lot more tension which would prohibit particular races and clans from appearing in certain areas. Obviously the Elezen and Hyur have some tension between them, but the Duskwight Elezen very clearly won't be cohabiting the same place with any Hyur at all. Miqo'te are described as mostly isolated, avoiding contact with other races, which would lead me to believe they'll have their own homeland akin to Kazham. At the same time, it mentions they reside in the major cities, so it will be fun to see how that balances out. And obviously the Hellsguard Roegadyn are specifically said to live in Ul'dah.

Maybe they'll let you pick what you want and give you some sort of bonus item for choosing a place that corresponds with your race and clan, similar to nation rings in FFXI.
#29 Aug 07 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Oh man, it's already looking like Ul'dah is going to be the new Bastok... the red-headed stepchild of FFXIV. Hopefully there won't be a Conquest mechanic this time. It was really never fair to Bastok citizens.

That reminds me. What does everyone else think of bringing back a Conquest-like system? I was never a fan of it, because even though it affected each individual player, the factions were too big for one person to really make an impact. You just rode along with whatever the rest of your country was doing. Now, if the competition was on a smaller scale, like between linkshells, I could go for it.

Anyway, as for the cities, I think all the concept work they've shown so far is absolutely fantastic. Limsa Lominsa and Gridania are just a little nicer.
#30 Aug 07 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I would expect that not a lot of people will be wanting to start in the desert town, and that's the way it looks so far. It would be my second choice probably.

@TraumaFox-- Well, I pretty much got the exact opposite impression of everything you just said. I guess we'll see.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Aug 07 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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#32 Aug 07 2009 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Limsa Lominsa is lovely, and I love the concept of the whole city. If we do get to pick then I will start there! =D

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 9:02pm by YfandesofBismarck
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#33 Aug 07 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I like Gridania the most because of its mysteriousness. Just wonder what kind of creatures you'll find there! It's so different from Sandy because it's actually APART of the forest.

However, I think SE said something about races naturally starting in their respective cities. I like how the races seem to be just now finding out about each other and accepting different cultures.

Since I want to be a Roegadyn, I will gladly live in Limsa.

As I interpreted it:
The Elezen live by themselves (just like in FFXI...).
The Roegadyn most certaintly live in Limsa.
The Hyuran don't live with the Elezen so they probably are with the Miqo'te.
The Lalafell, then, are either in an area by themselves. I don't think they live in Limsa since they are agricultural... and you can't farm acres on the sea..

However, it'd be Hilarious if SE, once again, rolled the FFXI dice and did this number:
Elezen (1 city)
Hyuran + Roegadyn (2nd city)
Lafel + Miqo'te (3rd city)

Look familiar? . . .
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#34 Aug 07 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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One thing ive noticed so far with alot of the names is they all seem like very difficult words to pronounce. Eorzea just sounds terrible. Even the race names look nastey except for 'Elzen". I'm kinda skeptical about some of the names so far for things...Usually SE is known for catchey names and these are everything BUT catchey.
#35 Aug 07 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm really a fan of the overall feel that Limsa has. If we are given starting town choice, you'll find me there.

As for the cities being original, what do you honestly expect? As far as biomes go, there are limited choices for cities.

1. Tundra
2. Taiga
3. Deciduous Forest
4. Rainforest/Jungle
5. Grassland
6. Swamp/Wetlands
7. Desert
8. Ocean/Lake

I feel like all of these have been done already.
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#36 Aug 07 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm kinda skeptical about some of the names so far for things...Usually SE is known for catchey names and these are everything BUT catchey.


How can you be skeptical when the names are on the official site http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/

I think I will go Ul'Dah simply because it will be less populated and probably have convenient placement of shops and such like Bastok had. Having a mine is a big plus and if there is an Alchemy guild there i will be all over Ul'Dah.

If starting zone has effect on stats I will of course change to whatever has the best for my character (I will find some way to make a RDM and DRK in this game!!).
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#37 Aug 07 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Default
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DaemonFaust wrote:
Quote:
I'm kinda skeptical about some of the names so far for things...Usually SE is known for catchey names and these are everything BUT catchey.


How can you be skeptical when the names are on the official site http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/

I think I will go Ul'Dah simply because it will be less populated and probably have convenient placement of shops and such like Bastok had. Having a mine is a big plus and if there is an Alchemy guild there i will be all over Ul'Dah.

If starting zone has effect on stats I will of course change to whatever has the best for my character (I will find some way to make a RDM and DRK in this game!!).


Nah I believe they are the real names...skeptical as in im not sure if I really like them.
#38 Aug 07 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm really a fan of the overall feel that Limsa has. If we are given starting town choice, you'll find me there.

As for the cities being original, what do you honestly expect? As far as biomes go, there are limited choices for cities.

1. Tundra
2. Taiga
3. Deciduous Forest
4. Rainforest/Jungle
5. Grassland
6. Swamp/Wetlands
7. Desert
8. Ocean/Lake

I feel like all of these have been done already.


I guess that is all if you think narrow-mindedly...
Seriously, it's a fantasy game. I can come up with a few things off the top of my head.

1. Underwater kingdom
2. Kingdom in the clouds
3. Base hidden in a volcano
4. Cave town
5. Community carved out of a mountain (Not ON a mountain)
6. City inside a great rift in the earth (Straight out of a tour of the Grand Canyon...)
7. An area made up of crystals and gems
8. A marsh city on the top of a giant moving tortoise

See, 8 for 8. And before the complainers...
You know that second F in FF? Guess what?
It stands for FANTASY.
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#39 Aug 07 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Carbi wrote:
Quote:
I'm really a fan of the overall feel that Limsa has. If we are given starting town choice, you'll find me there.

As for the cities being original, what do you honestly expect? As far as biomes go, there are limited choices for cities.

1. Tundra
2. Taiga
3. Deciduous Forest
4. Rainforest/Jungle
5. Grassland
6. Swamp/Wetlands
7. Desert
8. Ocean/Lake

I feel like all of these have been done already.


I guess that is all if you think narrow-mindedly...
Seriously, it's a fantasy game. I can come up with a few things off the top of my head.

1. Underwater kingdom
2. Kingdom in the clouds
3. Base hidden in a volcano
4. Cave town
5. Community carved out of a mountain (Not ON a mountain)
6. City inside a great rift in the earth (Straight out of a tour of the Grand Canyon...)
7. An area made up of crystals and gems
8. A marsh city on the top of a giant moving tortoise

See, 8 for 8. And before the complainers...
You know that second F in FF? Guess what?
It stands for FANTASY.

Half of those are unoriginal, and the other half are just, well, stupid.
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#40 Aug 07 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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I want to be able to go to the moon like ff4.
#41 Aug 07 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm actually pretty pleased with the starting cities.

No, they're not reinventing the wheel. But, as starting cities, they probably shouldn't. They're attractive and interesting without being completely mindblowing, and potentially overshadowing the more exotic locales you have to work toward.

If Bastok was Sea, Sky would've bored us.

SE has a good track record of being able to pull off Exotic Locale when it's called for, although I'd like to see the mid-levels get some love this time around instead of leaving everything to Endgame.

Although I'm still on the fence, if I do end up playing, I'll start in Gridania.
The architecture has this wonderful hint of gothic cathedral that's going to look divine during nighttime hours (halfhour, fifteen minutes, whatever).


Quote:
Half of those are unoriginal, and the other half are just, well, stupid.

It's all in the pre~sen~ta~tion.
But, it's all been done before, just some less than others.




Edited, Aug 7th 2009 11:14pm by Zemzelette
#42 Aug 07 2009 at 7:13 PM Rating: Default
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Half of those are unoriginal, and the other half are just, well, stupid.


Wow, just like you. :]
Funny how that works out.
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#43 Aug 07 2009 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with Kachi that Roegadyn will be from Limsa. Half the humes will come from the mountain city (no pic). The lower humes scattered across the 3 mentioned cities.

I plan on starting in Limsa as a Miqote. I love fishing. Roegadyn is my second choice. But Limsa is amazing.
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#44 Aug 07 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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I've thought of some area types that have never really been done before (at least to my knowledge), but I confess, it can be difficult. It's not so hard if you go really wild with ideas, but then picking the more plausible ones that fit with the atmosphere of the game, and especially how these more "original" areas fit in with more traditional landscapes, that becomes the challenge.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Aug 07 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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The starting areas shouldn't be anything to amazing. It helps the story and feeling of progression. In most ff games you come from an ordinary place move on to travel to exotic locations and do exraordinary things.

As for which one I'll choose... I can't decide...
#46 Aug 07 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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I like Ul'dah a lot it reminds of the starting city for ffxii and for some odd reason it reminds me of "One Piece" a lot(awesome anime, by the way). Anywho, the scale of these cities look huge. you see the little shadows of what apear to be people walking too or from the city of ul'dah.

I really hope the elezen belong to this city, it would be a nice twist having them in the desert and the fact I wont both options. Elezen look a lot cooler this time around and would make a pretty sweet looking samurai. I really hope they release this after ff13 is released in japan. That would mean a 1st quarter 2010 release for ff14, especially if beta starts sept. like people are predicting. I cant wait any longer. I can't even play FFXI anymore, my Sam is just standing in wht gate wondering why I'm not moving him.

Got my PS3 rdy. play on that for a few yrs. then switch over to pc for a better look.....heh sry for rambling.
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#47 Aug 07 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yeah, it's interesting how people are picking their starting city as if FFXIV will let you, while some people seem to have the idea that your race and clan selection will automatically place you in one. I think I'm going to roll with the latter idea, even though not all race descriptions link them with particular areas, there are a few


Well assuming what I read was right, it says adventures will get to choose their city-state. I will post a link and quote from where I'm reading this at.

Quote:
For adventurers, they will build their own tale by first choosing a city-state to call home.


Off http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=19163

Assuming that is right then I will probally be choosing my city-state based on the people I will be playing with. I will be joining the game with many rl people and ls members. I think we will have a vote or something and all have a say so on which starting town we all pick together. They all look so nice and wonderful, so we can't lose no matter which town we decide on.
#48 Aug 07 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Half of those are unoriginal, and the other half are just, well, stupid.


You're trying to defend SE on how unoriginal their cities were, but you're calling his ideas, which are twice as innovative as a city in a desert, stupid? I will wait and reserve judgement for screen shots and videos of the cities before calling them bad, because I know they will be very nice still (that tech demo is the ocean city, or at least a rough early image of it, and it looks awesome), but I'd be much more excited to explore these cities if they were indeed underwater or in the sky. Like he said, Final FANTASY; how would a city embedded in a mountain not be cool? I agree the forest city does look like a nice step in the right direction though.
#49 Aug 07 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Sloannn wrote:
Quote:
Half of those are unoriginal, and the other half are just, well, stupid.


You're trying to defend SE on how unoriginal their cities were, but you're calling his ideas, which are twice as innovative as a city in a desert, stupid? I will wait and reserve judgement for screen shots and videos of the cities before calling them bad, because I know they will be very nice still (that tech demo is the ocean city, or at least a rough early image of it, and it looks awesome), but I'd be much more excited to explore these cities if they were indeed underwater or in the sky. Like he said, Final FANTASY; how would a city embedded in a mountain not be cool? I agree the forest city does look like a nice step in the right direction though.

You're right, I'm such a rabid SE fanboi that I'm desperately trying to redeem them for city design, when we know very little about them aesthetically. My main point, in listing general environments, was to show that there is a limit to how creative you can get while still staying within the parameters of good design.

Yeah, sure, you can put a city in the sky (oh hai, FF12) or in a cave (here's lookin' at you, Norg), But when you start to stray too far from the feasible, The game suffers. You lose the sense of immersion that made FFXI so addicting, in my opinion.

The bottom line is that cliche, over dramatic, cheesy design =/= good design.
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#50 Aug 07 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with bardalicious. Personally I think the city designs are breathtaking. And you know we'll have left-field cities like Norg or the floating islands in FF12. As long as we don't have the WOW style with people riding fat elephants and flying sporebats I'm pretty content.
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#51 Aug 07 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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161 posts
I'm definitely leaning toward Gridania. I was considering hume, but as long as Elezen aren't gimped magic-wise, I'm thinking I'll go that way again.

Anyone else notice the blurb about the Roegadyn mages near Ul'dah? Wondering what kind of magic stats they'll have... I like the way they look this time around.
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