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I hope they don't get rid of flagship jobs.Follow

#1 Aug 07 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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All this new job info is great but it has me worried SE might steer the game into more "generic" MMO class names. Easily the biggest aspect of FF I love are the unique classes... Dragoons, Black Mage, Summoner, etc. I really hope this job info is just preliminary or goes the EQ2 path of having you choose a broad archetype and turning into a more defined role as you level.
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#2 Aug 07 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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I'm thinking FFT(A) jobs?
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#3 Aug 07 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I can infer is the possibility that there will be NO job titles. If the system is truly as fluid as they seem to hope it will be, then there becomes no point in labeling jobs because players can label themselves.

The thing about doing away with flagship jobs in a fluid game is that players can still create those jobs, but they can also combine elements from different jobs to make entirely new ones. Maybe one bow user makes an Archer, another a Ranger, another a Hunter, another a Sniper... all with slightly different abilities and traits. How about an Archer with fire magic and an emphasis on defense? When a system is really fluid and allows for so much customization, actually defining job names becomes pretty pointless. And that may be what SE has planned-- no job to pick from a menu or even by equipping a weapon. When they say that you change your job by changing weapons, they may mean that in a very loose sense. If you see a character with a bow, you'll think "Archer," and then if they switch to a katana, "oh, well I guess they're a Samurai now."

And if you just want to create a conventional Black Mage, Dragoon, etc., there should be nothing to stop you from doing that either.

But I do hope that if they create delineated jobs complete with name and rigidly defined roles that they stick mostly to the FF lore.



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#4 Aug 07 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty much what Kachi said.


SE has gotten rid of the flagship jobs in title only.

I believe their argument was that they only encouraged cookie-cutter builds and assigning abilities that are unique to that class.



That being said, I'm sure all of the puzzle pieces to make jobs are there, you just need to find them and put them together.

And I'm 100% confident that SE will have the classic job garb available. (White Mage robes, black mage hat etc)
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#5 Aug 07 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Well, for what it's worth, FFII, VI, VII, VIII, X, XII, (and probably XIII) did not use defined job titles, and worked with a more non-linear approach to advancement. While I enjoy the system used in FFXI, even taking a new spin on it is nothing new. While I hope there are no permanent decisions (say, you can max melee or magic, but not both), not having the job names is somewhat refreshing. I think a large reason FFXI did it was to appease the people who tried to say it wasn't a 'real' Final Fantasy.

Given that FFXI worked, I think FFXIV has a lot more room to do what it wants, and a non-linear progression path like they seem to be attempting is interesting. Was FFVI not Final Fantasy because there were no clearly-defined Black Mages? No. Back then, Final Fantasy games were just RPGs made by the same group of people. Sure, after FFII, every game had Chocobos, and Moogles showed up in a few, but they weren't what made the game a Final Fantasy. Nowadays people seem to be a whole lot more worried that a game will have the "Final Fantasy" feel. Honestly, agree with me or not, having Uematsu do the music is probably all that anyone will ever need to get in the mood.

So, I say, scrap the old job names if it makes for a new and interesting system. Especially so if it means that crafting or fishing will be a more involved process. Yes, I'd like to be a Knight / Paladin, but it won't kill me to be something with a slightly different name for a change.

The argument that the game is using more "generic" names for jobs will become, I think, a moot point in time. The fact that FFXIV doesn't play into "classic" medieval or fantasy stereotypes gives them leeway. Once they start adding Dwarves that are proficient with Hammers and Wood Elves that reclusively live in the forests, I will start to agree. Until that day, I'm fine with SE throwing in a few "unoriginal" ideas. They do enough interesting things to give them the right.

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 7:17pm by BlackRagnarok
#6 Aug 07 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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What I'm wondering is how they will implement "pet classes" like Summoner or Bst if the progression system is based strictly on equipment and training. Perhaps there will be items like Bst Whistle or a Summoners Horn that will unlock pet training skills.. It's impossible to say, though.
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#7 Aug 07 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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imperialvulture wrote:
unique classes... Dragoons, Black Mage, Summoner, etc.


Those are not unique; every fantasy game made since Dungeons & Dragons has an offensive magic caster, a caster that calls out temporary pets, and a armored fighter that prefers polearms to swords. They just go by different names. There are unqiue aspects to them, for example a DRG's "jump" abilities, that aren't in other MMOs, RPGs, or tabletops but for the most part it's nothing new.
#8 Aug 07 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I am really going to miss the job pride I had in FFXI, but I think that a fluid system like this really, and I mean reall opens the doors for a lot of customization and it sounds like a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to trying to recreate a perfect black mage, maybe a summoner, and even a couple hybrid jobs... ****, maybe even a combo that doesn't fit any existing niche that FFXI has laid out for us in our heads. It sounds like it could be really great and creative and amazing, I just hope that cookie-cutter molds don't end up guiding 90% of the population.
#9 Aug 07 2009 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Cookie cutter builds will show up. Its just a matter of time. I expect end game to have cookie cutter dps, healing, and tank classes. I mean its inevitable since it happens in all games.

I'll worry about endgame when i get there though and try to recreate a RDM and DRK.
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#10 Aug 07 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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DaemonFaust wrote:
Cookie cutter builds will show up. Its just a matter of time. I expect end game to have cookie cutter dps, healing, and tank classes. I mean its inevitable since it happens in all games.

I'll worry about endgame when i get there though and try to recreate a RDM and DRK.


Sad but true. Everyone will find the optimum setup, and then others will just work to copy it. Especially if we can master everything on one character, or even go back and train specific skills in a seesaw effect.

However, it is looking better for the casual/solo player with this new level of personalization to character growth, especially with the guildleves. It seems like SE is trying to give players more freedom in that regard, but I have no doubt endgame will again foster the sort of mentality that looks for the optimal setup only.
#11 Aug 07 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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What I can infer is the possibility that there will be NO job titles. If the system is truly as fluid as they seem to hope it will be, then there becomes no point in labeling jobs because players can label themselves.

That's definitely what I hope they mean when they say they're avoiding the traditional job names. The trouble is that so far they've seemed quite happy to label playstyles with other names, like this Thaumaturge business. So are there still rigid jobs, with the ability to switch easily between them, or is the job system so seamless that titles are just suggestions? As far as I can tell, they aren't saying.

One thing I wonder about is how finding group members will work if we don't have easy labels to identify playstyles. Even if the grouping system is far more flexible than in XI (and it sounds like it will be), people will want to be able to quickly see if a person seeking is most specialized in healing, or damage, or whatever. I don't know, maybe you'll be able to see detailed information on everyone's skills through the search screen now?
#12 Aug 07 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Im betting the class tree is alot bigger than what they have shown us so far. I think thats why the website is particularly vague in this area. Notice the website doesn't actually talk about the class choices, just the categories. Using swords and magic may open up new classes that are magic/fight hybrids, like dark knights and paladins. I bet the tree cross somewhere.
#13 Aug 07 2009 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Cookie cutter builds will show up. Its just a matter of time. I expect end game to have cookie cutter dps, healing, and tank classes. I mean its inevitable since it happens in all games.


Well, probably, but not necessarily. It happens in games because games lend themselves to it, but games can be effectively designed without that problem.

Much of that comes down to style and cosmetics, and what I mean by that is that when people gripe about the inevitability of cookie cutters, what they're usually complaining about is that everyone ends up being the same. There are a lot of ways around that, and a main one is just in making more cosmetic customization. If you can customize your clothes and weapon stats, then you can create effectively the same gear without ending up looking like everyone else, or for that matter, anyone else. And that can go further with abilities and spells that are also cosmetically different but functionally the same. Basically, separate the math from the graphics.

And another big factor there is enemy status and AI. In most games, FFXI being no exception, mobs are fundamentally very similar, as are the battle situations you find yourself in. But even in FFXI you begin to hear more advanced players, even after all of their statistical analysis, saying things like ********** is situational." The more situational **** is, the less cookie cutter builds become.

Finally, there's the importance of player skill. The more important player skill is, and the less important player build is, the less likely people are to fixate on optimum builds.

Take those three major traits away, and you will see a lot less discussion over which cookie cutter is best, and a lot more baking and eating cookies.

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That's definitely what I hope they mean when they say they're avoiding the traditional job names. The trouble is that so far they've seemed quite happy to label playstyles with other names, like this Thaumaturge business. So are there still rigid jobs, with the ability to switch easily between them, or is the job system so seamless that titles are just suggestions? As far as I can tell, they aren't saying.


Yeah, I'm hoping its the latter, but we just don't have enough to go on (and if I had to guess based on what's out so far, I'd guess the former). I'm really not going to be impressed by the fluidity of a system that allows you to switch freely between rigid jobs.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#14 Aug 07 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Cutter Cookie builds will happen in endgame in a matter of time. I don't see this as a bad thing though. It may be way less cookie cutter builds as far as parties and things of that such, but endgame is a totally different ballpark. There will be a way to match and level certain skills to have the most effective DD or something of that such possible, and their will be online guides that people will follow. All the customization in the world is not going to change how people think, especially if some of the skills you have are not as useful in endgame. For example, why does this Ls want you to have this heal skill when they got solid healers, and you could have been better at something else. Things like that will happen in endgame, at least for the more hardcore (or elitism) ls's.

Edited, Aug 7th 2009 11:56pm by HocusP
#15 Aug 07 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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As long as I get to be a Black Mage-esque ranged magic DPS and not have to level other jobs to be competitive, I'll be happy. I hated having to level sub jobs in FF11, I really hope we can stick to one job here. Yes, flexibility is nice, but I'm a one class kind of player...
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#16 Aug 07 2009 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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All the customization in the world is not going to change how people think, especially if some of the skills you have are not as useful in endgame.


Way to miss the point?

Besides, you talk about "endgame." Ok, what's endgame? Is all the endgame going to be basically the same? Even in FFXI, there aren't a lot of optimum setups that apply to every endgame situation, and the endgame diversity in XI is really nothing impressive.

Cookie cutters are in no way inevitable. They are a biproduct of mediocre game design.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Aug 07 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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With the noncombat activities (crafting, gathering) being brought onto the same advancement structure as combat activities (magic and melee), Endgame might end up being unpredictably weird to accommodate noncombatants.

Not that I'm sure MMO society is ready to take crafting and gathering seriously enough to give it an Endgame. But what if SE tries anyway?

(For the record, no, I have no idea how that'd work.)

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 1:21am by Zemzelette
#18 Aug 07 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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It does raise an interesting question about the guildleve system. They mention a crafter or harvester getting an escort for a quest... what's in it for the escort? As they point out, that person can also complete a quest of their own in the area, but if the crafter can't fight, what's the incentive for going with them?

So escorting could be a quest in itself, or maybe even while doing a crafting quest out in the field you'll be allowed to switch.

Eh, I'm about out of conjecture before I slip back into wait and see mode.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Aug 07 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zemzelette wrote:
With the noncombat activities (crafting, gathering) being brought onto the same advancement structure as combat activities (magic and melee), Endgame might end up being unpredictably weird to accommodate noncombatants.

Not that I'm sure MMO society is ready to take crafting and gathering seriously enough to give it an Endgame. But what if SE tries anyway?

(For the record, no, I have no idea how that'd work.)

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 1:21am by Zemzelette


This is all I could think of when I read about the four basic job paths planned for XIV. I imagined an RTS-style raid going down, with a group of people tasked to gather resources, another group for building lines/walls of defense, assembling siege-style weapons, and repairing battered armor/weaponry with those resources, and a group of actual fighters taking the front lines with magic-users behind walls blasting away/healing. It actually sounds pretty cool in my head - would also make for amazing PvP!
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#20 Aug 08 2009 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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They mention a crafter or harvester getting an escort for a quest... what's in it for the escort?


Superior crafted stuff, I'd imagine. It's especially so if not everyone can craft. You could pay a billion gil for a hauby equivalent, or escort a nice crafter on a quest.
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#21 Aug 08 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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It does raise an interesting question about the guildleve system. They mention a crafter or harvester getting an escort for a quest... what's in it for the escort? As they point out, that person can also complete a quest of their own in the area, but if the crafter can't fight, what's the incentive for going with them?

So escorting could be a quest in itself, or maybe even while doing a crafting quest out in the field you'll be allowed to switch.

Eh, I'm about out of conjecture before I slip back into wait and see mode.

I believe that one of the quests mentioned was killing small rodents for the gratitude of an NPC. Along that same line, they say you can combine guildleves to accomplish more things at the same time. What if you had to protect the harvester from, say, rabbits trying to steal what's being harvested? Your gladiator gets rewarded for slaying the rabbits while the harvester gets what he needs to finish his quest.
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#22 Aug 08 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Default
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Way to miss the point?

Besides, you talk about "endgame." Ok, what's endgame? Is all the endgame going to be basically the same? Even in FFXI, there aren't a lot of optimum setups that apply to every endgame situation, and the endgame diversity in XI is really nothing impressive.

Cookie cutters are in no way inevitable. They are a biproduct of mediocre game design.


Endgame to me is everything that requires an LS, in order to be done successfully (and yields rewards) at the end of the game (or after reaching close to or max progress on a job). Missions and stuff don't fall under my endgame criteria because you don't need a ls to do them (well in ffxi anyway). Hnms and stuff you pretty much need an ls to do on a constant basis and successfully.

Their might not be as many cookie cutter build as in ffxi, but they will still be their. Customization is not going to change how humans think as far as min/max in an LS. I am not talking about "optimum setups", that apply to everything but I am talking about the skills within the job. I mean more like this "why does this Ls want you to have this heal skill when they got solid healers, and you could have been better at something else". There will obviously be some skills that will be better for solo and party play rather then LS and endgame play. I see cookie cutter in ffxiv as being the skills people select to be the best in a certain area in endgame, rather then the jobs people pick like in ffxi. Different kind but essentially the samething, and there will be skill guides and test done. Assuming you can take skills off like merits then there will be a lot of tests done.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 2:55pm by HocusP
#23 Aug 08 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Their might not be as many cookie cutter build as in ffxi, but they will still be their.


Just remember that it's only cookie cutter if everyone is the same.

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Customization is not going to change how humans think as far as min/max in an LS.


Cosmetic customization does, but it simply reduces the appearance of cookie cutters. Considering a lot of people's problem with cookie cutters in the first place is that it ends up making them look the same as everyone else, that's a pretty giant step in the right direction.

Fluid customization also makes it very difficult to create an optimal build.

Quote:
I am not talking about "optimum setups", that apply to everything but I am talking about the skills within the job.


See, that's also an optimum setup. All cookie cutters are an effort towards an optimum setup. Min/max is all about optimum setups. When the skills themselves are also customizable, they become just as situational as gear (hopefully more so) in a game like FFXI.
Quote:

I mean more like this "why does this Ls want you to have this heal skill when they got solid healers, and you could have been better at something else". There will obviously be some skills that will be better for solo and party play rather then LS and endgame play. I see cookie cutter in ffxiv as being the skills people select to be the best in a certain area in endgame, rather then the jobs people pick like in ffxi. Different kind but essentially the samething, and there will be skill guides and test done. Assuming you can take skills off like merits then there will be a lot of tests done.


Eh, I somewhat doubt that. I don't think that by endgame there's going to be any penalty to having a solo build and a party build. I would seriously hope not. You seem to be thinking that it will be much more difficult to change your skills than what I'm talking about.

Besides, early in the endgame for an new MMO, people generally grab whatever warm bodies they can. They only get so picky when things start to stagnate.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#24 Aug 08 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Not that I'm sure MMO society is ready to take crafting and gathering seriously enough to give it an Endgame. But what if SE tries anyway?

(For the record, no, I have no idea how that'd work.)

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 1:21am by Zemzelette


Endgame crafting was done in Ultima Online years ago, where players were perfectly content sitting in town blacksmithing items while people such as myself (Fisherman/Miner/Poisoner and all around scalywag) would either fix, or mine rare ores to them for profit and they would in turn make me items or others in my guild items. In a sense it was endgame and they helped build homes/forts (before the deed system took over).

I could be just as happy without flagship jobs because the ability to mix and match in the FFT and FFT(A) games appeased me plenty.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 9:04pm by Yoppie
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#25 Aug 08 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, to elaborate a bit on the Guildleve of why a harvester would need an escort...

A grandmaster blacksmith sends one of his apprentices out to mine some ore deep in a dangerous cavern. The quest suggests that you gather at least 3 friends to go down into said cave.

As you trudge deeper and deeper into the cave, it quickly becomes dark. (you are likely to be eaten by a grue)
Suddenly a group of Goblins and Quadav (assuming that there are Quadav in the game. I'm just grasping at straws here.) pops out from behind a stalagmite (or is it a stalactite? Which one is on the ground again?) and runs at the apprentice you've been tasked to protect.
Apparently, he had been holding onto a secret blacksmith manual that his master had entrusted to him. Seeing that the stakes have been raised, you press onward to find the ore and get out of the cave, unaware of what dangers potentially lay on the path ahead of you.

That kinda stuff.
The reward could be a choice of several weapon types from the book that the apprentice has.
It sounds pretty cool to me.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 6:17pm by Catt
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#26 Aug 08 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, to elaborate a bit on the Guildleve of why a harvester would need an escort...

A grandmaster blacksmith sends one of his apprentices out to mine some ore deep in a dangerous cavern. The quest suggests that you gather at least 3 friends to go down into said cave.

As you trudge deeper and deeper into the cave, it quickly becomes dark. (you are likely to be eaten by a grue)
Suddenly a group of Goblins and Quadav (assuming that there are Quadav in the game. I'm just grasping at straws here.) pops out from behind a stalagmite (or is it a stalactite? Which one is on the ground again?) and runs at the apprentice you've been tasked to protect.
Apparently, he had been holding onto a secret blacksmith manual that his master had entrusted to him. Seeing that the stakes have been raised, you press onward to find the ore and get out of the cave, unaware of what dangers potentially lay on the path ahead of you.

That kinda stuff.

It sounds pretty cool to me.


Thats the kind of stuff that I like, a story even if a small one to accompany the quest.
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#27 Aug 08 2009 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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The 6 starting jobs in FFXI are essentially the same core jobs of the original Light warriors. WAR(Fighter..before changing to Knight aka PLD), THF(and the upgrade class NIN), MNK, RDM, WHM, and BLM. I see no reason the core of the stable jobs won't be around for FFXIV. We might not wear a pimp hat on RDM, but the tools and hybrid class should be relevant enough. Enhancer could very well be RDM under the magic classes. If you played Final Fantasy Tactics, Duelist, Enhancer, Elementist, and a few others are basically all the same as RDM.
#28 Aug 08 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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This is all I could think of when I read about the four basic job paths planned for XIV. I imagined an RTS-style raid going down, with a group of people tasked to gather resources, another group for building lines/walls of defense, assembling siege-style weapons, and repairing battered armor/weaponry with those resources, and a group of actual fighters taking the front lines with magic-users behind walls blasting away/healing. It actually sounds pretty cool in my head - would also make for amazing PvP!

Okay, that's awesome. I don't know how likely it is, since RTS elements would probably be something they'd hype early, but it's definitely the most compelling idea for crafting/gathering jobs I've heard so far.
#29 Aug 08 2009 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Well, probably, but not necessarily. It happens in games because games lend themselves to it, but games can be effectively designed without that problem.

Much of that comes down to style and cosmetics, and what I mean by that is that when people gripe about the inevitability of cookie cutters, what they're usually complaining about is that everyone ends up being the same. There are a lot of ways around that, and a main one is just in making more cosmetic customization. If you can customize your clothes and weapon stats, then you can create effectively the same gear without ending up looking like everyone else, or for that matter, anyone else. And that can go further with abilities and spells that are also cosmetically different but functionally the same. Basically, separate the math from the graphics.


Hmm.. reminds me of Champions Online, if anyone's been following that. You can customize the look of your super powers, such as the hue of your fireball. But red, orange, yellow, green or blue, a fireball is a fireball. It's still going to be used if it's the best ability bar none. I mean, otherwise you need to have different abilities all have pretty much 1:1 ratios in damage, MP cost, etc.

Now, I think you make a good point otherwise. An element of strategy and variation to the mob fights (instead of auto-attack) should help to curb one particular build ruling over all. In fact, SE has directly stated they're striving for that sort of gameplay. So the outcome definitely looks sunny there!
#30 Aug 09 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
I think there's already enough info to make a few assumptions about classes.

One is that we know there's categories. There's melee, magic, gathering, crafting.

Two by their example we know these categories are further split into jobs. They give an example of a gladiator and thurmaturge job. They also give a fishing gathering profession and a smith.


So we know there will be job categories and job names. What reason do they have to make categories? Why do we have a split between 'magic' and 'melee' combat jobs? If you think about FFXI no clear defined line exists. Sure some jobs are all one or the other, like samurai or black mages, but there's things like death knights, corsairs, etc that blend things more.

Will FFXIV not have any blended jobs? Will FFXIV give categorical training? Will it be more like a tree like FF tactics where getting good at one job opens up new ones in that category? We'll see!
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#31 Aug 09 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the traditional FF jobs I'm a little dissapointed to see these generic mmo job titles.
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