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The Number GameFollow

#1 Aug 08 2009 at 4:27 AM Rating: Good
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I was always boggled by the amount of ambiguity present in FFXI. I was never sure exactly what a stat did, what stats a food gave me, what the hidden stats were on any given thing.

I'm keeping my fingers cross that SE decides to make it a little more apparent just what it is our gear/food/spells are doing for us.

What are your thoughts? Did you like the mystery of eating that Jack-o-lantern and wondering 'Am I getting just Acc, or is there some Atk in there too?' Or do you prefer knowing exactly what stats you're receiving, down to the number?
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#2 Aug 08 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Good
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There needs to be a balance between transparency and consistency. There are alot of items within FFXI that are labelled with stats rather bizzarely and different to other items with similar stats. Then again, I think secret hidden effects that players must figure out are fun, something like using Ice the Fire spells on metallic enemies for increased damage etc.
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#3 Aug 08 2009 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Even though these items didn't specifically say what they did, it wasn't too difficult to search for it on the internet. I know that showing what they give is going to help alot of people but when you know that certain items are better than others, it doesn't really come to mind to bother knowing how much I am getting.

I am all for showing what they do but sometimes the amount of bonuses on an item (like some food) would take up a great deal of space just to say what it does XD
#4 Aug 08 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI was a ****** for keeping things hidden. Attack is quite easy to spot since you can see that, same for stats. Things like accuracy, the staves effect on spells et al. That's the stuff I want to see states on the food/gear effects. It's impossible to gauge how much acc a food gives you unless you use a parser, which is against the ToS... Nice SE, nice.
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#6 Aug 08 2009 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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See, I love that none of that stuff is readily apparent, and would like to see that carried over to (or even expanded upon in) FFXIV. Not knowing all the stats of an item/class/food/whatever forces you to make your choices based on character performance (or the character performance of others who have done the research for you) instead of on whatever your character sheet tells you. It adds a level of player involvement to the game.
#7 Aug 08 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would like quests that actually have useful quest descriptions so I don't have to look them up on wiki.

Also yes, I agree on the food thing. I would like to know the stats. I don't care if this meat on a stick is a favorite treat of mithras unless I'm setting up a rusty van outside of the AH with "Meat Kabobs" spray painted on the side of it.
#8 Aug 08 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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XxHigetsuxX wrote:
I would like quests that actually have useful quest descriptions so I don't have to look them up on wiki.

Also yes, I agree on the food thing. I would like to know the stats. I don't care if this meat on a stick is a favorite treat of mithras unless I'm setting up a rusty van outside of the AH with "Meat Kabobs" spray painted on the side of it.


Look at most MMOs, they don't go into full details on what the food does, quite a bit will say something like "Lamb Leg regens xHP/min or 500 HP in a 30 minute duration."

Thats as detailed as it ever gets in most MMOs.
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#9 Aug 08 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Well EQ2 does it from what I've seen. It wouldn't be all that hard to implement some sort of program that shows the stats of the food if you move your mouse over it or do some sort of check command.

Just saying it would be nice. Take out some of the guesswork. I can understand both sides of the fence, though. Some people prefer it remain a mystery because it makes the game more dynamic or however you want to word it.

But I still stand by my thoughts on the quest description.

EDIT: Reread your post. That's the kind of thing I want. Tell us what it does but keep the numbers a secret for us to find out. Kind of a compromise, imo.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 12:38pm by XxHigetsuxX
#10 Aug 08 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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I'm perfectly fine with the stats not being in the description of food, but I want to be able to see the effects on my char sheet. Like another person said, you could always tell when attack was increased. However, there are other stats that were hidden, so you could not see them gain an effect. Lame, very lame.
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#11 Aug 08 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I think it would be just fine if food simply stated something like:

Regen HP (HP over time, but doesn't say amount or duration)
Increases Attack (could be a straight +x or +%, including any caps, but that's for players to find out)
Increases Accuracy (same as above)
etc.

But it should list everything it does generally (every stat), but leave players to crunch the numbers themselves. I.e. Nothing hidden, but you can keep the numbers hidden. Now, this is on food, mind you. Food stats should not be utterly hidden as it is in XI, with little indication of what the food even does in the "flavor" text.

Now, I don't see why we can't have all of a character's stats revealed in a menu, like infamous Accuracy. I mean, even if we have the number, it's still up to very diligent players to decide "how much is too much" and "where is the best trade-off," i.e. Accuracy vs. Attack. If they're into that sort of thing or looking for optimal performance.
#12 Aug 08 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with the stats not being in the description of food, but I want to be able to see the effects on my char sheet.


Something like a + or - icon next to affected stats (without actually showing how much they're affected) would be OK in my book. Lets you know that something is happening, but not exactly what.

What I don't want to see is everything being spelled out exactly for us. I like "gamer voodoo" stuff like "Carrying a Four-leaf Mandragora Bud increases rare item drop rates!" and "Face X direction to craft with Y crystals!" being up in the air. Detailed effect descriptions would eliminate a lot of that.

EDIT:

Also, a "flavorful" description of an item's effect would be better than a "game mechanics" description. "This Hamburger Au-Lait replenishes your body's strength." is way better than "This Hamburger Au-Lait adds a 3HP/tick Regen effect."


Edited, Aug 8th 2009 1:32pm by CapnCrass
#13 Aug 08 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Full transparency is the best choice. Arbitrarily hiding information from the player doesn't make a game any more fun; it just makes it more frustrating. Whatever anyone would hope to achieved by hiding information can be done via a much better method.
#14 Aug 08 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hope they completely discard the horrible system they have in FFXI where you have to spend more time looking things up on the internet than actually -playing- the game, unless you want to be completely clueless and suck.

This is really the root of the problem here. Hidden stats never actually added any mystery to the game, or not for very long. They just added an extra step where you were forced to leave the game and consult websites and guides. Encouraging players to consult with each other is one thing, but making the game unplayable without outside references was totally out of hand.

I do think there is a place for hidden stats. Adding a secret bonus to seemingly useless items like crowns made for a fun little treasure hunt. But they need to be used sparingly.
#15 Aug 08 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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XxHigetsuxX wrote:
I would like quests that actually have useful quest descriptions so I don't have to look them up on wiki.


So chilly.
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#16 Aug 08 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I think I prefer nearly full transparency. If there were any realistic way to actually make it impossible to know how well items performed, then I might prefer that, but it seems far too likely that eventually someone will develop a script that will be able to assess performance in some way, opening the way to eventually finding out what works best.

I must admit a big part of me wishes people would just give up on finding the optimal setup and use whatever they want, though. Unfortunately what a lot of people want is not to develop their skills with a cool *** character, but to be the very best *cue Pokemon music*.

Of course if skill is a lot more important in XIV and gear is downplayed, I guess I don't care as much. Skill was just such a nebulous concept in XI.

On the other hand, a good strategy game generally lets you know all the rules before you play.
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#17 Aug 08 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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some more techniqual info would be nice but I would rather they keep the "flavor" text intact and just give us more info in the character sheet or by selecting the buff icon.
#18 Aug 08 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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LOL, nice reference Evayde.


P.S. Evayde from Garuda?!!
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#19 Aug 08 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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I tended to view hidden stats in XI as another subtle prod by the devs to encourage communication in the community. I also felt it was overused, but the concept of hidden stats didn't bug me.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 8:55pm by ascorbic
#20 Aug 08 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
LOL, nice reference Evayde.


P.S. Evayde from Garuda?!!


Naw, i dont play on servers with cool names; i played on bismarck and then at some point switched to Quetzalcoatl
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#21 Aug 10 2009 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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When you think about it ffxi may have only been able to survive due to the fact that players were able to compile information online. If not for this practice I doubt players would have any patience for this game at all, imagine being expected to know or pick up all the information that is contained in these wikis and dedicated sites. Thats pretty insane.

SE prolly didn't expect players to be such dabbler though, they prolly expected players to level one or maybe a couple jobs to 75. not try and level as many as we can which of course turns this game into a time sink in that regard.

If we all had only 1 job that we took to the level cap and focused on pimping out it prolly wouldn't be too much of a burden trying to internalize just the information that mattered at 75/endgame. You'd then prolly just pass on the information you gained from leveling and specializing at that one job to other up and coming players leveling the job you specialize at.

Its hard to refer to how you progressed a job when you've leveled about 5 jobs to the cap to pass on you're experiences to the next generation of players.

This is likely why SE has gotten rid of jobs and of course level grinding and seem to be focused on letting the players define their play styles. The job system itself was a waste of time since we are all inherent dabblers. This makes me wonder what type of information we will likely be conveying to each other in ffxiv.

With the removal of many of the tediums we experienced in ffxi so will the need for extensive information gathering from what I can tell.
#22 Aug 10 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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If they're truly aiming to get a more casual crowd expect item stats to be explained down to the letter.
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