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See-Saw? UghFollow

#1 Aug 08 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Default
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I just read the updates and I have to say that talk of see-sawing job levels/abilities/whatever has me really worried. I don't mind grind, trading my time for increased something for my character. But don't make me waste time I've already spent. Block certain ability combinations if they're too powerful. But don't take away abilities outright and make me earn them again if I revisit a class.

That would effectively require me to run multiple characters and is close to a deal killer for me.
#2 Aug 08 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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If they implement a seesaw mechanic, I'd expect it to work similar to how merits do in XI; you can specialize in one field, but your performance in other fields will still be acceptable for most content. That's my guess anyways.
#3 Aug 08 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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If they implement a seesaw mechanic, I'd expect it to work similar to how merits do in XI; you can specialize in one field, but your performance in other fields will still be acceptable for most content. That's my guess anyways.


I agree with this, it could be the samething as merits and that would work. The effect would probally be bigger then merits in ffxi but not so much so that it ruins another job. This was in ffxi in a way, you could be the "master" of some jobs but not all.

Sure you could be lvl 75 on all jobs but merits could not be maxed on every job (my definition of master). Their was only a certain amount you could spend on magic skills (elemental, enfeebling, etc), so your blm might be max but your rdm wasn't. Their was only a certain amount you could spend on weapons, so your mnk and sam might be mastered, but your drk and dragoon wasn't. I see it as this sort of thing, where you can grow (or lvl) all the jobs, but not master (merit type) every job.
#4 Aug 08 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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I also think something similar to the merit system would be acceptable. Either that or maxing everything should take as long as it did to get all jobs to 75 in XI. Of course, XIV seems like it might require less time, since it seems to be geared a little more to the casual player than XI. But basically, who really wants a player to be able to max everything on one character? I think people are worrying about the seesaw effect too much, or taking it too literally.
#5 Aug 08 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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But basically, who really wants a player to be able to max everything on one character?


I think most people accept that they're not going to be able to completely maximize their character so that it can do everything the best. What most people don't like is when its difficult to change. People want growth flexibility. They want to be able to change their mind about the direction of their character and not be set back weeks or months of effort.

In FFXI, if I decide I want to put my merits from SAM into DRG, then that could end up costing me a lot of hours of playtime. It's understandable that I shouldn't be able to do that freely per se, such that I always pick my SAM merits when I'm SAM and my DRG merits when I'm DRG... but when you just want a mulligan on your merits, you don't really have that option in XI. It's back to the drawing board.
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#6 Aug 08 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I think most people accept that they're not going to be able to completely maximize their character so that it can do everything the best. What most people don't like is when its difficult to change. People want growth flexibility. They want to be able to change their mind about the direction of their character and not be set back weeks or months of effort.

In FFXI, if I decide I want to put my merits from SAM into DRG, then that could end up costing me a lot of hours of playtime. It's understandable that I shouldn't be able to do that freely per se, such that I always pick my SAM merits when I'm SAM and my DRG merits when I'm DRG... but when you just want a mulligan on your merits, you don't really have that option in XI. It's back to the drawing board.


^This, Agreed.
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#7 Aug 08 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been a bit perplexed by what SE means by a see-saw approach; but from reading these forums and giving it some thoughts, I believe the best way to set up a see-saw of skills in the system as they've explained it so far would function like thus (please prepare yourself for senseless and purposeless speculation):

There is a value for actual progress, which for simplicity's sake, we can call "levels". When you start a character, you are bad at everything and your skills look like this:

Discipline:
1 x x x x x x x
2 x x x x x x x
3 x x x x x x x
4 x x x x x x x

You work very hard at Discipline 3 and perfect it, meanwhile getting a little work done in 2 and 4. I'd like to stress that this is not a limit, but rather a progression, it would be entirely possible to get all disciplines to max.

1 x x x x x x x
2 0 0 x x x x x
3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4 0 0 0 0 x x x

A character is allocated a further set of points (I have no idea how you get points, but I would presume it would have to have something to do with weapons, or perhaps it's just innate). For simple clarity we will call these "AP" for now. Let us say that a character has 7 AP in that diagram. Because you have unlocked all of 3 and some of 2 and 4, you have some options on how they distribute their points at any given time (this distribution would be restricted, say in town).

1 x x x x x x x
2 - - x x x x x
3 - - - - 0 0 0
4 - 0 0 0 x x x

is one example, but there are several other possibilities.

I make no claim to be clairvoyant, nor possessing of secret knowledge, but if the system functions like this, I believe I would be satisfied. And even if it is not, I still have faith that SE will come up with something that isn't too grossly unfriendly.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 5:33pm by Hulan
#8 Aug 08 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Surely the thing about 'see-saw' is that either side can be up, but when one is up the other is down, but they are interchangable. No where have they said you can't max everything, (theyve said they are considering it), what they have said is that you cant have everything maxxed at once. Meaning you cant be a maxxed warrior, and thaumaturge or whatever it was. Why is this such a problem? I see a seesaw as just dictating your abilities at any one time, not permanently affecting your character. Unless it's been said somewhere else it's different, I'd see it being like BLU in a way. You gain more points to spend the higher you are, and you apply them to the skills youve learnt along the way (albeit from other jobs, and not to the level you're currently at, or if they are, you can only have 1 or 2 because they cost hefty amounts of points.)
Basically the same as what the above poster's saying.
#9 Aug 08 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Note that this is the quote in context:
Quote:
There will be four disciplines, each with a number of classes, and a variety of skills for each class. The developers are still unsure whether players will be able to master every class, of if they will impose a "see-saw" effect, similar to crafting in Final Fantasy XI.

Note that the only "see-saw" effect in FFXI's crafting system is that you can't master all crafts; just one, but you can develop the others up to 60. Working on Goldsmithing does not ruin your already high Cooking skill, but if you want to master Goldsmithing and already have 100 in Cooking, in this case you'd be forced to relinquish your Cooking levels. Alternatively, you can distribute the 40 post-60 skill levels as you wish, thereby never mastering more than one craft (with the exception of Fishing). Deleveling is by choice, not the natural progression of every-day crafting.

Many people have jumped on the idea that by "see-saw" it means that by developing one skill you're simultaneously eroding another; they're envisioning a literal see-saw where as one side elevates upwards, the other declines to the ground in a repeating cycle. The information points more in favor of FFXI's crafting "see-saw," where one must choose what to master, but you're free to level up the other jobs to a certain point before you have to choose what to specialize in, the "see-saw" only coming into effect when you choose to take up mastery in something new. While this does lend to the idea that to have multiple mastered jobs you'd need a new character, it might not be that bad, especially if switching what skills you're currently a "master" at is as simple as a trip to the Mog House (or something of that nature).

The developers have repeatedly stated that they want a system wherein people are able to switch jobs and still maintain their "levels" in that job, similar to FFXI's job system. It wouldn't make sense to implement a system that causes the player to lose a large amount of development when they change their mind later on. Given the emphasis they've put on more casual play and more player freedom, I'd expect them to come up with something that lets you simply move those skills around at a certain point, rather than lose that effort completely.
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#10 Aug 08 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah you guys aren't really looking at this very objectively. If they dont have a seesaw effect everyone would be 'exactly' the same end game, and it would be potentionally very boring.

More importantly (Unless SE is abunch of idoits) see sawing isn't going to mean you have to have a billion characters. Look at WoW for example, they have talent builds but just becuase you go down one path doesn't mean your stuck with it. For a small price you can always resdistribute all your points. SE could easily implement something like this.

Honestly you can beat it will be a see saw of some sort, theres just no point in classes period if endgame everyone is potentially the same.
#11 Aug 08 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure they'll implement resepcs ala WOW/EQ2/etc. or perhaps even let you save multiple builds on one character. We shall see.
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#12 Aug 08 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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If they dont have a seesaw effect everyone would be 'exactly' the same end game, and it would be potentionally very boring.


I think you're misunderstanding what we're talking about, because otherwise this conclusion does not follow. You can have a lot of differences between players with no seesaw, unless you want to consider something as flexible as an AP system, or the ability to change jobs in your MH a seesaw.

Quote:
Many people have jumped on the idea that by "see-saw" it means that by developing one skill you're simultaneously eroding another; they're envisioning a literal see-saw where as one side elevates upwards, the other declines to the ground in a repeating cycle. The information points more in favor of FFXI's crafting "see-saw," where one must choose what to master, but you're free to level up the other jobs to a certain point before you have to choose what to specialize in, the "see-saw" only coming into effect when you choose to take up mastery in something new. While this does lend to the idea that to have multiple mastered jobs you'd need a new character, it might not be that bad, especially if switching what skills you're currently a "master" at is as simple as a trip to the Mog House (or something of that nature).


Unfortunately the crafting seesaw may be WORSE than the seesaw that causes certain things to go down as others go up. Most people didn't craft for really any reason other than to make money in FFXI, but if crafting had been fun from a gameplay standpoint (and all the crafts hadn't been essentially the same), people would have raised several crafting mules. Some people who really enjoyed crafting did just that. Point being, people WILL feel compelled to raise multiple characters if you force them to in order to have a high end character in each role that they want. Some really hardcore players even made multiple characters for melee and mages in XI purely so that they could have the benefit of racial stats and a fresh palette of merits.

But what you're talking about at the end of this paragraph is essentially an AP system, which I am totally ok with.
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#13 Aug 08 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
If they dont have a seesaw effect everyone would be 'exactly' the same end game, and it would be potentionally very boring.


I think you're misunderstanding what we're talking about, because otherwise this conclusion does not follow. You can have a lot of differences between players with no seesaw, unless you want to consider something as flexible as an AP system, or the ability to change jobs in your MH a seesaw.


No, you misunderstand me. If everyone can max out their skills then theres nothing to make you any different from someone else other than the fact your build choices which can be changed. You need to have something thats irreversible. If we have no see saw effect, then why not alow users to change race at any time too? Anyways in a class system your class is suppose to define you, but if you can max out all your classes then it doesn't really define you and SE mys well made just one class called "Uber". I dont really see the point in classes if theres no 'specialization'. If you can max in all you can specialize in all which means there really was no specialization to begin with.

And oh theres the arguement you dont want to have to make a new character, and I agree with that so there should be a way to reset it and go down another path. But you must see saw any one path someone chooses or else theres no point in classes. Also, its very evident with the info already released that you will be able to change your job very often, and there may be some restrictions but its obvious they wont be very strong thus this cannot be used as a seesaw like mog houses were. If people can change at any one time then maxing out all the classes would defeat why we have classes at that point we should have like i said an 'uber' class so you dont have to change your gear every single time to use your abilities.
#14 Aug 08 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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You need to have something thats irreversible.


Well, on that we have a fundamental disagreement. I'm not going to bother addressing your other points because we're just not going to agree on this. This is a feature that you like, but a lot of people don't.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Aug 08 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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This just goes back to what I said in another thread. There is no reason why people can't master all jobs, but there needs to be some restrictions or limitations in the field. Which as other people have stated, will probably be the case. On the other hand, if the limitations are strictly from a seesaw condition, then I can see why people would be upset. All in all, the best possible solution that has been presented is the ability points assignment option. I would love this. People could still master all jobs, yet before entering the field, they would have to pick a "main job" and customize it with a careful and limited selection of spells/skills/abilites/traits from other jobs. I do not think anyone really wants "Job Masters" running around everywhere destroying things right and left with all their god-like abilities at the touch of a button. Except maybe the solo fanatics.
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#16 Aug 08 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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With the way they set it up where you can change jobs in battle I'm glad for the see saw effect.

Otherwise it would be difficult to get a party for missions if you didn't have all your jobs maxed out so you could freely change between them, I want to see a discrepancy between a dedicated gladiator/archer, and a guy who plays both gladiator and illusionist equally... because if, by the time they both hit endgame, the only difference between them is the latter can use switch to illusionist in a pinch and the former can't, that's really going to hurt the battle system for me
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#17 Aug 08 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like it to be the points allocation system, how they project it with weapons.

Where as you use a weapon your weapon aquires JP, AP, whatever for you to use towards learning new abilities for the weapons corresponding job or raising the proficiency level of the weapon being used. Also, for things like parrying or guard or Evasion, those things would have to occur in battle. So if you evade some attacks, after aquiring enough AP in an evasion category, you would have the choice to raise your evasion rating. But doing so would take away from potential in other areas, so you have a choice. Each job would still have to have a natural skill cap, for those type of things though.
If they kept the character level and class level seperately, like they seem to be doing, you could have a maximum AP amount increase as your character level increases, so you can't allocate everything right away and max out your skills by just grinding your weapon levels or what not.
But also, what I think some people might scoff at, I think if they're doing the seesaw similar to crafting, have you designate the main class, which can be 'maxed' out in AP and such (let's say 100 full points for example), then 240 points that allow you to have abilities/skills from other classes, but not allowing any of these 'sub' abilities to exceed 60 points (like crafting). That way, they can keep the most powerful AP stuff above 60 and you will be able to customize your unique fighting style, using a pallet of different classes. So example: I could have my Main as Gladiator, with Dual Wield (from another class, not "Ninja" =P) and En-spells and a decent Counter rating and a JUMP ability. That's taking from 4 other classes, that I could peak to 60 AP each as subs. Or I could choose to only peak 2 sub classes, and use the additional 120 points for defensiv skills like evasion or even choose to allocate more AP to other abilities of those two subs, that I couldn't 'afford' if I peaked the 3rd and 4th. Or I can have a little from (almost?) every class, which would probably suck more than the example .

Then, maybe they could have a penalty for crossing disciplines, or simply an incentive for not crossing disciplines (like a very very very slightly higher AP point value). That most likely wouldn't be necessary; it just depends on how things are balanced, class wise. Well, don't pay any mind to the numbers, just an idea!
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#18 Aug 08 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks, all, for your replies. I know we don't know enough yet to come to any conclusions, I just find the term 'see-saw' troubling. I really don't understand the one guy who wants us irreversibly punished for switching primary jobs, like the old crafting system. How many people had endgame characters that were level 75 in every class? I think it was like one on all the servers. I think the prohibitive time involved in maxing out everything is going to stop 'every end level character [from] being the same.' I just don't think it's at all reasonable to force players to spend time relearning abilities/levels if they switch back to a former job.

Now, if has been speculated elsewhere, you equip a job by equipping a weapon in your right hand and a subjob by equipping something in your left, and flipping weapons between hands seesaws your levels/abilities (70War/35Sam -> 70Sam/35War -levels-> 72Sam/35War -> 70War/35Sam -levels-> 72War/36Sam), or more complicated situations you could design in an AP system), that's fine. I strongly believe that a character should be able to theoretically max out everything.

Now, if they separate job and character levels, like FFT, that might be a different discussion since job levelling at high character levels was relatively trivial. I hope they won't do that, I really like the concept of going back to square one in each new job.
#19 Aug 08 2009 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Now, if has been speculated elsewhere, you equip a job by equipping a weapon in your right hand and a subjob by equipping something in your left, and flipping weapons between hands seesaws your levels/abilities


if it were true or possible, would that mean you couldn't "sub job" with a two handed weapon?
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#20 Aug 08 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I like a system that encourages you to diversify yourself to an extent, but not overly so. I don't want a system that penalizes you for dabbling and trying to create a unique character, at least.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Aug 08 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Personally I like a system that encourages you to diversify yourself to an extent, but not overly so. I don't want a system that penalizes you for dabbling and trying to create a unique character, at least.


Doubt the penalty would be large while soloing/partying but I can see that it could take a bad direction when specific roles are needed for more major battles. Of course I still see people pigeon-holing builds because of "Must have x abilities and y stats for z moment" and that will ultimately eradicate diversity for the more serious players. However, the diversity factor may come into play where pure DD builds are stuffed because of mob abilities whereas some scenarios may call for balanced stats. This could mean that "respecing" is necessary to swap between a person's preferred playstyle and what is necessary. Then again, there goes the diversity.

Personally I believe that the difference in usefulness between a "diverse" character and a "pre-built" character is going to be quite large.
#22 Aug 08 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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The 'see-saw' mechanism is a terrible idea.

That's really all I have to say.
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#23 Aug 08 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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Just something to keep in mind... this is a good time to let your opinions be heard, but there's absolutely no reason to fret over this stuff at this point. They haven't even decided on the "see-saw" issue yet, and they won't have to for a very long time -- even after the game is released. The level cap in FFXI when it launched was 50, and I don't even know what the crafting caps were. Caps when FFXIV launches will be low enough that they probably won't have to consider this stuff for a good solid year after release. Hopefully they'll spend that time carefully testing the possibilities and considering player feedback.
#24 Aug 09 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Hopefully it won't be implented. If it is in beta hopefully the beta testers complain about it so much its killed. Id much rather they take FFXI's approach where you can level every job to cap but it takes an inordinate amount of time to do so.
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