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#1 Aug 08 2009 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Well I ,like all of you, found all the latest information quite interesting. Then I turned back to threads to see all the speculation being wrought. It was at this moment I had to look hard, because there was so little.

Instead, a flood of cheers and moans, making all the startling sounds of a vicious mob, arose from the threads. People praising the inventiveness, claims of lack of inventiveness and stock pulling, people vowing to never play FFXIV because manthras were absefnt the released inormation, and people swilling to the flavor of their favorite new racial features. People claiming mechanics from one of the most successful companies in the market are already broken ,and people acting as if the new mechanics were conceived by the brains of space aliens of supreme intellect.

In the whirl wind I hung my head. I hung my head because people do not speculate anymore, they expect. They formulate a game in their heads composed of their wants, and they expect it. No one is willing to observe and judge. Judgments are predestined now! Failure to meet expectation is tantamount to treason, and fulfillment leads to unrestrained worship.

My question to you is this: Do you really think, seeing the raving mobs, that SE should listen to us? Nothing will ever satisfy the masses, who bicker with themselves over every single aspect of a game. What company should base a product on...this? Frankly, speculation is always good. Thinking of all the what if's, and then seeing the final product. But should there be a line we do not cross, one where the what if's must be true? Are we flying of the handle?



Edited, Aug 10th 2009 9:37am by waveren
#2 Aug 08 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I think I might be one of the few, but I love the game exactly how it is lol I love the fact they are making it and welcome anything new and familiar, maybe I'm to simple :)
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#3 Aug 08 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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waveren wrote:
In the whirl wind I hung my head. I hung my head because people do not speculate anymore, they expect.

That is largely what most speculation threads and posts have always been. They're wishes, prayers. They're rarely about what SE might do and largely about one particular player wants the company to do, and since there is no evidence to the contrary, that player is free to pretend her scenario is actually possible.

waveren wrote:
My question to you is this: Do you really think, seeing the raving mobs, that SE should listen to us?

Yes. I believe it is incredibly important for a developer to listen and respond to the players.
waveren wrote:
Nothing will ever satisfy the masses, who bicker with themselves over every single aspect of a game.

Well of course you can't satisfy everyone all the time, but that has never been the goal. We don't hold an election and then say "Oops, no one received absolutely 100% of the votes, since there is at least one person who disagrees we shouldn't let this guy into office." Satisfaction isn't a binary condition. The goal isn't to satisfy everyone; the goal is to satisfy the most people as much as possibly.
waveren wrote:
What company should base a product on...this?

I believe almost every company should.
waveren wrote:
Frankly, speculation is always good. Thinking of all the what if's, and the seeing the final product.

I personally loathe speculation threads. They are utterly pointless. Why should I care that someone thinks that SE could make a jester class in the game and it would have a flower that shoots water? Why should I care that someone thinks it would be cool if we all rode around on giant armadillos in FFXIV? That's what "speculation" in the context of forum game discussion means to me--someone's random idea.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 10:06pm by Allegory
#4 Aug 08 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:

They're rarely about what SE might do and largely about one particular player wants the company to do, and since there is no evidence to the contrary, that player is free to pretend her scenario is actually possible.


Ugh. That part...bothers me. People willingly believe their own illusions. That's a troublesome behavior to me.

Allegory wrote:
Well of course you can't satisfy everyone all the time, but that has never been the goal. We don't hold an election and then say "Oops, no one received absolutely 100% of the votes, since there is at least one person who disagrees we shouldn't let this guy into office." Satisfaction isn't a binary condition. The goal isn't to satisfy everyone; the goal is to satisfy the most people as much as possibly.


You can never say a coin has 2 sides. It may land on it's edge. Why satisfy one group and spit on the other? Innovate! Make the option no one saw that is far better than both. But, I suppose you are right.

Allegory wrote:
I personally loathe speculation threads. They are utterly pointless. Why should I care that someone thing that SE could make a jester class in the game and it would have a flower that shoots water?


Well that is a ridiculous example, but most people have real speculation. As to how game mechanics might work for instance. If you are not interested in the possibilities why are you here?

Allegory wrote:
Yes. I believe it is incredibly important for a developer to listen and respond to the players.


Response is fine, but taking development advice from a forum that argues for a week over jump? Perhaps I am too cynical.



Edited, Aug 8th 2009 8:09pm by waveren
#5 Aug 08 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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waveren wrote:
If you are not interested in the possibilities why are you here?

Primarily I am here to find out information about the game. Threads like the one Elmer recently posted where a great amount of confirmed game play information was released are what I look forward to. I like reading about what SE will do. I like talking about what SE should do. I don't care much about what SE might do or could do.
waveren wrote:
Response is fine, but taking development advice from a forum that argues for a week over jump? Perhaps I am too cynical.

For MMORPG developers, game forums are the best places to find feedback on their ideas. In there, developers can find player fears, player concerns, player wants, perspective on balance, and much more. Sure they may have to sift a lot of sand to get to the gold, but the gold is there and I don't know any other way they can get it.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 8:37pm by Allegory
#6 Aug 08 2009 at 5:46 PM Rating: Default
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I'm liking the armadillo idea Allegory.

I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people not getting their hopes fulfilled. The rest of us will be happy to have a whole new world and adventure to explore.

Let's face it, SE know how to put a good game together....it's not going to be awful.
I also think it is so far into development that they are unlikely to be able to make major changes. But then, what changes? None of us know anything much about the game.

I'm getting really fed up with people saying it will be FFXI 2.0 if they don't have male mithra too. Race wise it's already 2.0 as they have reused XI's races. Male mithra are still mithra, they are not a different race to the female mithra.

Personally, I hoped new game/new races.

And just because they haven't been announced doesn't mean they aren't in the game.
Not sure what all the fuss is about though. I played a mithra in XI, mainly for the stats and didn't get confused..... still ****** standing up.

SE love to drip feed information very, very slowly. I bet they're sat in the office ******* themselves laughing at all the speculation going on.

What I have noticed in a few of the threads though are people misreading the publicity blurb, writing about it, a few others not noticing it's wrong and replying to it, then the wrong information being accepted as gospel.
Most of the stuff announced so far has been quite ambiguous. Written in a way that tells lots....or virtually nothing.
#7 Aug 08 2009 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like to see new races playable or not just to mix a few things up personally but I have nothing wrong with the current one's.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 9:11pm by Averrinicus
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#8 Aug 08 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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You seem to have forgotten that this is the FFXI fanbase we're talking about here.

As to your question, no, I don't really think SE or any company should design and base the game exclusively through a community's demands, because contrary to what most people think of themselves, they are not good designers. SE should stick to their guns and their original plans and see what works and what doesn't. If the community gets their paws into the design process, it becomes a mess of 'gimme gimme' that destroys game balance and framework.

Forums in general are usually a minority of players, and aren't a very good sample of satisfaction with FFXIV details.

Don't be disturbed by the overly vocal idiots. If they're not going to buy the game based on a grand total of maybe a dozen screenshots and extremely vague information concerning play mechanics, they're not going to, and nothing of value will have been lost.

Edited, Aug 8th 2009 7:16pm by Kirbster
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#9 Aug 08 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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#10 Aug 08 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think folks who are perhaps a bit more comfortable in the sphere of stand-alone console games might be bit overwhelmed by the vocal MMO culture. To someone used to the stagnant console creature, it might be hard to get a grasp on the active evolving beast an MMO is, much less the otherworldly notion that you play a part in steering the reins.

There was a fantastic article written recently by one of the Live Team members of Asheron's Call 2. It gives a good insight on some of the things that happen behind the scenes in Community Management.
http://www.eldergame.com/2009/07/08/the-warcraft-live-teams-b-squad/

If you come away from that article understanding anything, it should be this:
Your voice is not only a good thing, it's a requirement.

The people behind the game are only human. At the end of the day, it's their job to keep the players happy. Because they can't divine the future, they have no other choice than to judge the validity of their decisions based on your reaction to them. Your feedback is not tolerated, it's expected.

Do not fear your feedback will result in hurting the game. For one, as demonstrated in the article, even the best of companies is perfectly capable of that all on their own. For two, it is largely the unified organized efforts that get recognition. The folks in charge well understand that any tom **** and harry with an internet connection can have an opinion, believe it or not they tool around on the internet too.

This is why seasoned MMO vets are not only vocal, but passionate. The more people we can gather for our cause, the more likely we'll see it to fruition.

So sit back, relax, have an opinion. Be vocal about it. Be passionate.
A community can hardly be called that if it doesn't commune.
It's the nature of the beast.



Edited, Aug 9th 2009 12:01am by Zemzelette
#11 Aug 08 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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People are stupid. No offense, but I'm not ******** you. People on any forum are smart. Simply because there is drive to connect, to be useful. However there are a ******** of people that in their head... are right, and those reject any form of knowledge whether right or wrong.

Creative people out of all things have one thing in common. Never to do the same thing twice. It's boring and already known which the outcome is. Creativeness is making people feel uncomfortable. Creativeness is pushing the boundries... Emotion is the most powerful, worldwide, most common instance of what is human. It drives us. It's the basis of marketing and commercialism. The only thing connecting every human is... emotion. It drives us to kill, love, commit suicide, be depressed ect.. It is ******* powerful.

Give SE some credit. Whatever you think is going to happen... is never going to happen!
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#12 Aug 08 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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@ Zemzelette

Thanks for that link bro. It was very insightful, to see the perspective of a developer. However else I feel about this thread, that blog was very interesting. Makes me a bit jealous we don't get something like this from SE. I especially liked the part about gaming forums being filled with ********. I LOL'd at that, not saying it aint true though. But things like this definitely support the idea of a community interaction and information exchange. Not just from player to developer, but from developer to player. That being said, it is true that developers need to listen to their consumers, yet that information has to be tempered with wisdom. Anyways, thanks again Zam, and could you post any similar links, if any exist. I am not a WoW fan, but I do like the idea of reading from an insider perspective.
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#13 Aug 08 2009 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
People on any forum are smart


Ah.
FFXI never had an official forum, so I suppose some folks wouldn't know.

If you value life, limb, and sanity you will avoid the Official Forum like the plague. I almost wish they wouldn't implement one, if it didn't act as a gravity well for the worst of the worst cleaning up the other community sites.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I'm embarrassed to admit I'm not quite sure what your driving at.


@ AmsaimSutavarg

Your welcome. :)
About the only other thing I've seen recently has more to do with employment in this field during these turbulent times. Not quite on topic, but here it is, if your interested: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_213/6341-Casualty-of-Warhammer

/edit: Actually I forgot to mention. The Elder Game blog is full of entries going on in a similar vein. The following seem most relevant to community.
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/01/31/the-stages-of-designerhood/
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/07/07/balancing-for-awesome/
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/30/taming-the-forum-tiger/
(keeping in mind this last one is about the cesspool of official forums FFXIers don't have much experience with, and not the community as a whole. Fansites like Alla are regarded favorably a few paragraphs in.)


Edited, Aug 9th 2009 1:33am by Zemzelette
#14 Aug 08 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Do you really think, seeing the raving mobs, that SE should listen to us? Nothing will ever satisfy the masses, who bicker with themselves over every single aspect of a game. What company should base a product on...this? Frankly, speculation is always good. Thinking of all the what if's, and the seeing the final product. But should there be a line we do not cross, one where the what if's must be true? Are we flying of the handle?


Simply put, yes I think SE should listen to us. Don't get me wrong or anything, it's not like they should go implementing everything we suggest. They should just listen to what the playerbase thinks and if any ides presented compliment their ideas work to include them. It's kind of like we are a free "idea team" for them and there is little reason not to listen to us.

As for flying off the handle, I do think that some people are taking the little information given to them by SE and stretching it a little too far. Really all we have is a trailer with very little gameplay scenes (which probably consist of cut-scenes), a few screenshots, and an incredibly vauge background to the story and game mechanics. Not really enough information to say much. So I would definately say that some are "flying off the handle".
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#15 Aug 08 2009 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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I want to see lots of things in the game but even if they aren't in there I'll still buy the game.

I will, like most people, adapt (at least in the beginning) to whatever SE gives us. We'll then gripe about the details later. SE should listen to our criticism (if SE thinks it's valid) and a better game will come out of it.

In order to create a good game, especially a MMORPG, it takes TIME and effort by the programmers, developers and the community.

The devs may create a "ninja" and have a certain role for that class, but the community may think differently. If SE had lowered the price of shuriken and raised the price of shihei you would have seen a different kind of play style.

There's a push and pull between us(the community) and them(the devs) that is always happening. The thing is, this time around they're starting from scratch and people really want to give their opinion. I guess we think we have more pull then we actually do. You'd be surprised, but I think the devs know what they're doing.

SE has had several years of experience and has seen what has made games like uh...WoW, for example, popular.

I think they will do a great job with this one and I'm very excited and assured that they will ride that line between casual and hardcore a little bit better this time.


The most important thing however is (what I want to see) is
I think SE should stick with making a Final Fantasy GAME.

Just give me that feeling , good music, immersion and I'll stick around for a while.

#16 Aug 08 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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waveren wrote:
Well I ,like all of you, found all the latest information quite interesting. Then I turned back to threads to see all the speculation being wrought. It was at this moment I had to look hard, because there was so little.

Instead, a flood of cheers and moans, making all the startling sounds of a vicious mob, arose from the threads. People praising the inventiveness, claims of lack of inventiveness and stock pulling, people vowing to never play FFXIV because manthras were absefnt the released inormation, and people swilling to the flavor of their favorite new racial features. People claiming mechanics from one of the most successful companies in the market are already broken ,and people acting as if the new mechanics were conceived by the brains of space aliens of supreme intellect.

In the whirl wind I hung my head. I hung my head because people do not speculate anymore, they expect. They formulate a game in their heads composed of their wants, and they expect it. No one is willing to observe and judge. Judgments are predestined now! Failure to meet expectation is tantamount to treason, and fulfillment leads to unrestrained worship.

My question to you is this: Do you really think, seeing the raving mobs, that SE should listen to us? Nothing will ever satisfy the masses, who bicker with themselves over every single aspect of a game. What company should base a product on...this? Frankly, speculation is always good. Thinking of all the what if's, and the seeing the final product. But should there be a line we do not cross, one where the what if's must be true? Are we flying of the handle?



Well the way I see it there's a reason we have an entire forum dedicated to FFXIV instead of a banner image and a link to the official website. You announce a new game, people get excited, they need a place to vent out all that anticipation. Maybe it's just me but I don't think it's fair to criticize people for having some fun while they wait for the game to come out. We've got plenty of internets, no need to reserve it.

As for that second part... considering "the masses" are the target audience I would hope SE would listen. Obviously they shouldn't take suggestions word for word but you can see trends with the kinds of things people are asking for and that can show you in what direction people want the game to go.

A forum may not represent everyone who may play the game but getting your voice heard through posting is just one of the benefits of being proactive. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, silence gives consent, yadda yadda.
#17 Aug 08 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory and Zemzelette said everything I was going to say :c
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Aug 08 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Default
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Give SE some credit. Whatever you think is going to happen... is never going to happen!

This was the point (above).

&

Darwinism will always exist.
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#19 Aug 08 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
waveren wrote:
My question to you is this: Do you really think, seeing the raving mobs, that SE should listen to us?

Yes. I believe it is incredibly important for a developer to listen and respond to the players.
You're originally from WoW, right? This is important, to people not familiar with the Square Enix MO: They don't listen to their playerbase. They have their own agenda and will go through with it, regardless of our input. Should they listen? Of course, that is common sense. However, my six years of experience dealing with the company has shown that they do little, if any, listening to it's customers.

Take the Kings for instance. These are a set of monsters that spawn only once a day each, each with a three hour window (Once an hour they can spawn for like two minutes). They're easily bottable, they have been for six years. Suggestion after suggestion has been made, from increasing the spawn rate to altering the spawn conditions, to moving their drops to less fought monsters, and not a single thing has been done. Recently, they created a new emote, which causes the avatar to ring a bell. Soon afterwards, they increased the number of tones said bell made, which no one asked for. You'd think something like the Kings being fixed would be a higher priority, considering the outcry, then some stupid bell.
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#20 Aug 08 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You're originally from WoW, right? This is important, to people not familiar with the Square Enix MO: They don't listen to their playerbase. They have their own agenda and will go through with it, regardless of our input. Should they listen? Of course, that is common sense. However, my six years of experience dealing with the company has shown that they do little, if any, listening to it's customers.


It's that those that do care in the company have no voice even if listened to by their so called "managers". Often there are issues that the player base cannot understand. Even those that work for SE. The objective has been planned and all reasources based around it. To change one thing means changing 100-1000 small things. It's probably not worth the time or money. FFXI is what it is. FFXIV is the culmination of experience learned from FFXI.

I just looked at a linked in profile for a Senior animator of SE (who occupied 3 jobs at once). The employees is 1000-5000 for SE. I work in a company of 75 in the video game industry. I get **** on everyday. And treated like a preschooler. It sucks. Go with the flow or upper management will rain **** down on you.
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#21 Aug 08 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Excellent
My only hope for FFXIV is that SE demonstrates that they're serious about launching a game on the global market by showing their North American/European players that they value our business just as much as they do the business of their Japanese customers.

The new information that was released is good. It's in line with what I had in mind when they talked about a freeform system that builds on the diversity of the subjob system without duplicating the subjob system. The quest system sounds very similar to the one found in The Last Remnant. The "you should have to run everywhere and take forever to get everywhere so the hardcore players have hardcore and the casual players can log in the field" ******** seems to have been trounced by the announcement of the global teleport system, which is more than a little gratifying after that whole debacle from a couple of weeks ago.

As far as speculation goes, I steer clear of the "what races do you want to see?!?!?!" and "will there be necromageblueguy classes in this game?!?!?!" threads. I'm more interested in general mechanics that create an enjoyable atmosphere for enough people to keep the game truly thriving for years instead of a one year lead up to a 2 year plateau followed by a 4 year decline.

In line with those "mechanical" concerns is my significant concern about SE's general business practices. I almost shelled out $70 to have the a copy of VC2008 shipped to me; $70 for a game I already paid for once that was just to be a casual stop gap while waiting for FFXIV. Within a month of deciding that I didn't feel like spending that kind of money + monthly fee for a game I wasn't all that thrilled about playing, I learn that I could have spent that money only to find for whatever reason that maybe my CC wouldn't qualify for the security validation SE dumped on their subscribers, or maybe I'd wind up lolbant because I sold one to many pairs of Leather Trousers to a vendor during the latest automated RMT crackdown.

As much as I want to believe that the folks in charge of FFXIV will function independently from the buffoons making the decisions with FFXI, at some point they'll both fall under the same corporate management umbrella, and right now that umbrella does not inspire any faith in me. At all.

It's to the point now where I need to see a statement from SE regarding their views on the most recent fiasco with FFXI before I'll buy FFXIV. It's just that bad.
#22 Aug 08 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
The "you should have to run everywhere and take forever to get everywhere so the hardcore players have hardcore and the casual players can log in the field" bullsh*t seems to have been trounced by the announcement of the global teleport system, which is more than a little gratifying after that whole debacle from a couple of weeks ago.


I think the hints that using the teleports too frequently can permanently damage your character in some way is an interesting-sounding mechanic (really flavorful, too). We'll have to see how it actually works, I suppose, but I like the concept.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
As much as I want to believe that the folks in charge of FFXIV will function independently from the buffoons making the decisions with FFXI, at some point they'll both fall under the same corporate management umbrella, and right now that umbrella does not inspire any faith in me. At all.


Yeah. I somehow doubt that they'll pull a 180 and suddenly be a good, customer-friendly company. I haven't hit my bull**** limit yet, but it's a close thing.
#23 Aug 08 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
You're originally from WoW, right?

Perhaps surprisingly, I'm originally from FFXI, but meh I get around.
CapnCrass wrote:
Yeah. I somehow doubt that they'll pull a 180 and suddenly be a good, customer-friendly company. I haven't hit my bull**** limit yet, but it's a close thing.

Normally I'd agree, but the Japanese seem to have an obsession with doing weird things for no reason. I'm hoping to receive an ice cream bar with my game purchase.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 3:00am by Allegory
#24 Aug 09 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Zemzelette wrote:
Excellent I think folks who are perhaps a bit more comfortable in the sphere of stand-alone console games might be bit overwhelmed by the vocal MMO culture. To someone used to the stagnant console creature, it might be hard to get a grasp on the active evolving beast an MMO is, much less the otherworldly notion that you play a part in steering the reins.

There was a fantastic article written recently by one of the Live Team members of Asheron's Call 2. It gives a good insight on some of the things that happen behind the scenes in Community Management.
http://www.eldergame.com/2009/07/08/the-warcraft-live-teams-b-squad/

If you come away from that article understanding anything, it should be this:
Your voice is not only a good thing, it's a requirement.

The people behind the game are only human. At the end of the day, it's their job to keep the players happy. Because they can't divine the future, they have no other choice than to judge the validity of their decisions based on your reaction to them. Your feedback is not tolerated, it's expected.

Do not fear your feedback will result in hurting the game. For one, as demonstrated in the article, even the best of companies is perfectly capable of that all on their own. For two, it is largely the unified organized efforts that get recognition. The folks in charge well understand that any tom **** and harry with an internet connection can have an opinion, believe it or not they tool around on the internet too.

This is why seasoned MMO vets are not only vocal, but passionate. The more people we can gather for our cause, the more likely we'll see it to fruition.

So sit back, relax, have an opinion. Be vocal about it. Be passionate.
A community can hardly be called that if it doesn't commune.
It's the nature of the beast. :



This post sums up the whole topic
#25 Aug 09 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Well, certainty some very valid opinions here. I want to say that I always have believed a company should listen to it customers, but I question if listening to places like this is a good method of doing that. I'm still not convinced it is. Controlled costumer samples may be better. Your input has been certainty appreciated.

kiworrior wrote:

Simply put, yes I think SE should listen to us.


Aye! Nice to see shellies replying to me questions!

Redyoshi wrote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't think it's fair to criticize people for having some fun while they wait for the game to come out. We've got plenty of internets, no need to reserve it.


I wouldn't criticize anyone for that, but the expectation of a company to fulfill an individual dream; that is unrealistic. By all means imagine. Just don't go into fits when your imagination isn't realized.

lolgaxe+1 wrote:
You're originally from WoW, right?


No FFXI since NA release lol, and I disagree with you. Did we not receive a "pirate"
class due to popular customer demand? It's also not fair to lump everything into a whole. Yes there was the /bell emote added but that would have been done by a content task force rather than a RMT prevention task force. Besides, all those suggestions would just result in the bots switching up their routine and they'd be back in action within 3 weeks. I understand your position though. Perhaps more could be done.

Edit: Special thanks to Zemzelette for the provided information. Rate up.



Edited, Aug 9th 2009 3:40am by waveren
#26 Aug 09 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
CapnCrass wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
The "you should have to run everywhere and take forever to get everywhere so the hardcore players have hardcore and the casual players can log in the field" bullsh*t seems to have been trounced by the announcement of the global teleport system, which is more than a little gratifying after that whole debacle from a couple of weeks ago.


I think the hints that using the teleports too frequently can permanently damage your character in some way is an interesting-sounding mechanic (really flavorful, too). We'll have to see how it actually works, I suppose, but I like the concept.


I read that and interpreted it as the justification in the lore for a cooldown, nothing more.
#27 Aug 09 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
I read that and interpreted it as the justification in the lore for a cooldown, nothing more.


Maybe. Either way I like the idea.
#28 Aug 09 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I know this is a huge simplification but if they won't implement an official forum with CM and developers getting involved (yes I know just like in WoW) SE won't give a **** about what its player base thinks.
#29 Aug 09 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
27 posts
I really love the idea of FFXIV so far, and the character models are beautiful and refreshing.

I'm extremely disappointed in all the ******** and moaning coming from the people who want manthras, in particular. They just have to accept the fact that SE wants to stick to their lore, and fanboys have to accept that this is NOT their project, it's SE's. I don't understand why they can't be happy with what's already in front of them. This game is beautiful, and they should appreciate what we have so far.
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#30 Aug 09 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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394 posts
Maldavian wrote:
I know this is a huge simplification but if they won't implement an official forum with CM and developers getting involved (yes I know just like in WoW) SE won't give a sh*t about what its player base thinks.


Whatever the best way is to make the developers listen to the players, an official forum is surely the opposite. Sure we'd all like to believe that mature posters would stand out and that admins and moderators would ignore and filter out the garbage, but let's be realistic. We all know and cannot deny that an official forum would very quickly turn into a very ugly affair which is more likely to hurt SE-customer relations than improve. If I was one of the handful responsible for reading through the WoW forums and reporting my findings back to the higher ups at Blizzard, my report would be, "Our player base is mostly underage, hates us to death, and several million users will be 'quitting forever' tomorrow unless we fix every single bug in the game right now."

(The rest of this post is not directed toward Maldavian.)

lolpostcount +1 wrote:
:'(


Are the devs terrible at customer service and responding to major issues for which we are due an explanation? Yes. Does that mean they never listen to us and just have their own agenda? No, it means a primarily Japanese company is still learning how to communicate with a global player base. You might argue they should already be good at that, but if you actually played six years ago, you'd know how they essentially didn't even try back then. Today is different. If they didn't care, would they be making an effort to hold NA Fan Festivals, or interacting with sites like Alla. ****, the fact that they unveiled FFXIV at e3 instead of TGS speaks volumes about how much more dedicated they are to the global market.

**** yes we should expect more than we've been getting; there are issues in FFXI that they have blatantly failed to address from the start (Kings...), and many apparently useless changes have been made (bells...), leading one to wonder if those resources could have been better spent. But to belittle their improvements so far as to say they haven't made any at all is just ridiculous and childish.

To those of you who love to ignore the strides SE has made and cry foul that SE is deliberately trying to **** customers off, just wants our money, never listens to us, and is utterly evil and seditious: Shut up. You are the type of people who do not deserve an outlet to have your voices heard, because you are the people most likely to take whatever good SE does and throw it right back in their face, crying that it's not enough. The relationship between a company like SE and its customers is supposed to be a mature, adult relationship, not a parent-child relationship. Even when they ***** up, you have to handle it and respond maturely if you want to be listened to, not by telling them you hate them because they cooked you a healthy dinner instead of buying you McDonald's. Both sides have to eat the same thing, so when you expect SE to let you cram tons of broccoli down its throat, you'd better eat your **** broccoli too.

Are we flying off the handle? Some of us. And when SE sees that some of us flying off the handle, don't you think that discourages them from listening to the more helpful posters just a little? You could imagine that would only be worse with official forums. So many of us are quick to point out all the ways SE needs to improve their relationship with customers, but so few of us even recognize that the customers need to improve their relationship with SE too (and there are certainly many people dedicated to that improvement, especially the folks-in-charge here at Alla). The more people eat their broccoli, the better our relationship will be.
#31 Aug 09 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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215 posts
I'd be really curious what the Japanese forums are complaining about right now. Maybe their similarities or actually opposing views compared to the English forums.
#32 Aug 09 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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264 posts
Well, I like what TraumaFox has to say. And I now want some broccoli and cheese!
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#33 Aug 09 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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65 posts
Quote:
I'd be really curious what the Japanese forums are complaining about right now. Maybe their similarities or actually opposing views compared to the English forums.


any one know Japanese? I would like to know as well.
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#34 Aug 09 2009 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory hit about every point on the head for me. And that link from Ruam about developers needing a communities input really made me smile.

The only difference is, I "enjoy" talk and speculation. I don't, for a minute, believe that I have sovereign right to say my way is correct or anything of the sort. But again, Its just something that I enjoy, and I like seeing other people's ideas. I hate when people have a closed mind and it starts nothing but trouble.

EDIT: gave Ruam credit for the link he posted :)

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 7:14pm by bleystrife
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#35 Aug 09 2009 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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46 posts
Quote:

In the whirl wind I hung my head. I hung my head because people do not speculate anymore, they expect. They formulate a game in their heads composed of their wants, and they expect it. No one is willing to observe and judge. Judgments are predestined now! Failure to meet expectation is tantamount to treason, and fulfillment leads to unrestrained worship.



Agreed 100%. There's nothing wrong with getting your hopes up and imagining what the game will be like, but it's both asinine and juvenile to throw a tantrum when it looks unlikely that you'll get what you want.*

Quote:
I'm extremely disappointed in all the ******** and moaning coming from the people who want manthras, in particular.


Agreed. Of course, not everyone who wants Male Miqo'te is behaving this way. It seems to just be a vocal minority. Even so, while I was pretty sympathetic to their desires, my sympathy is disappearing fast. The sense of entitlement surrounding this very minor issue is astounding.

*Of course, not everyone who isn't getting what they want is throwing a tantrum. Most people seem to be handling it pretty gracefully.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 9:59pm by keelut
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#36 Aug 09 2009 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
27 posts
Quote:
Are the devs terrible at customer service and responding to major issues for which we are due an explanation? Yes. Does that mean they never listen to us and just have their own agenda? No, it means a primarily Japanese company is still learning how to communicate with a global player base. You might argue they should already be good at that, but if you actually played six years ago, you'd know how they essentially didn't even try back then. Today is different. If they didn't care, would they be making an effort to hold NA Fan Festivals, or interacting with sites like Alla. ****, the fact that they unveiled FFXIV at e3 instead of TGS speaks volumes about how much more dedicated they are to the global market.

**** yes we should expect more than we've been getting; there are issues in FFXI that they have blatantly failed to address from the start (Kings...), and many apparently useless changes have been made (bells...), leading one to wonder if those resources could have been better spent. But to belittle their improvements so far as to say they haven't made any at all is just ridiculous and childish.

To those of you who love to ignore the strides SE has made and cry foul that SE is deliberately trying to **** customers off, just wants our money, never listens to us, and is utterly evil and seditious: Shut up. You are the type of people who do not deserve an outlet to have your voices heard, because you are the people most likely to take whatever good SE does and throw it right back in their face, crying that it's not enough. The relationship between a company like SE and its customers is supposed to be a mature, adult relationship, not a parent-child relationship. Even when they ***** up, you have to handle it and respond maturely if you want to be listened to, not by telling them you hate them because they cooked you a healthy dinner instead of buying you McDonald's. Both sides have to eat the same thing, so when you expect SE to let you cram tons of broccoli down its throat, you'd better eat your **** broccoli too.

Are we flying off the handle? Some of us. And when SE sees that some of us flying off the handle, don't you think that discourages them from listening to the more helpful posters just a little? You could imagine that would only be worse with official forums. So many of us are quick to point out all the ways SE needs to improve their relationship with customers, but so few of us even recognize that the customers need to improve their relationship with SE too (and there are certainly many people dedicated to that improvement, especially the folks-in-charge here at Alla). The more people eat their broccoli, the better our relationship will be.



THANK YOU. Finally, a rational human being...
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#37 Aug 10 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Agreed. Of course, not everyone who wants Male Miqo'te is behaving this way. It seems to just be a vocal minority. Even so, while I was pretty sympathetic to their desires, my sympathy is disappearing fast. The sense of entitlement surrounding this very minor issue is astounding.

*Of course, not everyone who isn't getting what they want is throwing a tantrum. Most people seem to be handling it pretty gracefully.


I think everyone is handling it fairly well. The only thing that ****** me off are the people who try to pretend like it's a mere "vocal minority" (like NAMBLA) and not a relatively large % of the playerbase (like atheists).

I mean, not to compare races in FFXI to actual racism, but only 13% of Americans are black. That's practically nothing, right? So it shouldn't really matter how vocal some of them are. And you can say that's ridiculous, but then tell me this... is it ridiculous for black players, who probably make up closer to 2% of the player population, to insist that they get humans with their skin color? What if the majority just doesn't want to see black people in the game, as a matter of cosmetics? Sure, all some people want is an avatar that they can relate to or find more cosmetically appealing, but really, they're in the minority, so they should just accept it and not make such a big deal out of it.

So yes, there is something fundamentally upsetting to me about the mere suggestion that a vocal minority should just stfu and deal, in any venue, when there is merit to what they're saying. And not that I'm actually upset or angry, but I talk down to people like that because I feel that their brand of idiocy is beneath me. And yes, I'm kind of a **** in that respect, and an unapologetic one at that.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Aug 10 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So yes, there is something fundamentally upsetting to me about the mere suggestion that a vocal minority should just stfu and deal, in any venue, when there is merit to what they're saying. And not that I'm actually upset or angry, but I talk down to people like that because I feel that their brand of idiocy is beneath me. And yes, I'm kind of a **** in that respect, and an unapologetic one at that.


Merit? There's no merit in throwing a tantrum when you don't get what you want. There's no merit in implying that the people who disagree with you are somehow racist.

The male mithra fans that I'm really respecting right now are the ones that realize that they may not be getting what they want and are acting like adults about it, not accusing SE* of ignoring their player base, betraying their fans or pretending like they are an oppressed racial minority.




*Edit: For some reason I originally wrote "Sony" instead of "SE" here. For this I was insulted several times. I've fixed the mistake. Thanks for pointing it out in a mature way.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 7:17pm by keelut
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#39 Aug 10 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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TraumaFox wrote:
Whatever the best way is to make the developers listen to the players, an official forum is surely the opposite. Sure we'd all like to believe that mature posters would stand out and that admins and moderators would ignore and filter out the garbage, but let's be realistic. We all know and cannot deny that an official forum would very quickly turn into a very ugly affair which is more likely to hurt SE-customer relations than improve.

Please do not use the collective pronoun "we." You aren't speaking for all of us, and I assure you that you do not represent my views. No I don't "know" it will turn into an ugly affair that will hurt rather than help. I believe quite the opposite.
TraumaFox wrote:
If I was one of the handful responsible for reading through the WoW forums and reporting my findings back to the higher ups at Blizzard, my report would be, "Our player base is mostly underage, hates us to death, and several million users will be 'quitting forever' tomorrow unless we fix every single bug in the game right now."

You act like the forum staff would be surprised at what they see.

If you were a teacher, and on the first day of class you discovered none of the kids could read, would you be surprised? Would you report back to the principal that the kids were atrociously undereducated? You might say yes initially, but have I mentioned yet that you are a preschool teacher? Suddenly it is not so surprising.

The staff who peruse official boards for feedback are not setting foot on the internet for the first time. They know what forums are like, and are prepared to handle it. They expect people to overreact and make "I'm quitting <game> forever!" posts. They expect people to make fake legal threats. They expect there to be utterly stupid complaints. It's part of the job and they deal with it.
TraumaFox wrote:
But to belittle their improvements so far as to say they haven't made any at all is just ridiculous and childish.

TraumaFox wrote:
The relationship between a company like SE and its customers is supposed to be a mature, adult relationship, not a parent-child relationship.

TraumaFox wrote:
Both sides have to eat the same thing, so when you expect SE to let you cram tons of broccoli down its throat, you'd better eat your **** broccoli too.

I disagree. The relationship between SE and the player base is exactly that of a company and a customer. We aren't equals, we aren't required to eat the same meal. Businesses serve customers. Customers pay businesses. It is not the customer's job to pat a business on the back and cheer it on.
TraumaFox wrote:
Are we flying off the handle? Some of us. And when SE sees that some of us flying off the handle, don't you think that discourages them from listening to the more helpful posters just a little?

No. SE is not an individual person; SE is a company. They don't cry when they are yelled at. They don't get their feelings hurt. They have staff sift through all the yelling, type it up into neat reports, and send it to the dev team for analysis and implementation.

Sometimes the yelling is very helpful to game companies. When a lot of people seem quite upset about an issue, then that sends a message to the company that people greatly care about this issue and believe it to be urgent.
TraumaFox wrote:
but so few of us even recognize that the customers need to improve their relationshipwith SE too

You can't change the player base. You are attempting to treat the symptom rather than the disease. People complain for a reason. If you want the complaining to stop, then don't try to stop the complaining; stop the source of the complaint.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:02am by Allegory
#40 Aug 10 2009 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Merit? There's no merit in throwing a tantrum when you don't get what you want. There's no merit in implying that the people who disagree with you are somehow racist.


Yeah, you clearly know me pretty well. I'm a big tantrum thrower. No, if you had comprehended what I was just saying, you'd realize that I'm not fazed in the least by it. First of all, we don't know yet, so there's no point in getting upset, and certainly no point in throwing a tantrum. Secondly, there is merit in wanting male Miqo'te, and that's what I'm talking about. You know this, and I know this. Don't try to ******** me on this. My ************** is finely tuned and the needle flies out the ************* gauge every time you post.

And I was in no way implying that you or anyone else was a racist, simply drawing the corollary in the thought process. So it wouldn't be a stretch for someone who thinks that way, but come on. Yeah, you people who don't want manthras are all *****. It's the ****** Holocaust in here, right? I'm sure you'd like me to be that retarded.

Quote:
The male mithra fans that I'm really respecting right now are the ones that realize that they may not be getting what they want and are acting like adults about it, not accusing Sony of ignoring their player base, betraying their fans or pretending like they are an oppressed racial minority.


To reiterate: I won't be the least bit upset IF (and it's still a big if) there is no male Miqo'te. I will be disappointed in SE yet again, but not surprised (and by the way, it's Square Enix, not Sony, dumbass... way to show that you really have no knowledge of their work).

However, I am eternally miffed by idiots like you. So get it straight... if I throw a tantrum, it's not over manthras. It's over the fact that I have to share the same air as mouthbreathers like you, listening to your asinine arguments and desperate attempts at teh hards lojik.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Aug 10 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
**
394 posts
Allegory wrote:
Please do not use the collective pronoun "we." You aren't speaking for all of us, and I assure you that you do not represent my views. No I don't "know" it will turn into an ugly affair that will hurt rather than help. I believe quite the opposite.


This is just plain denial, and if you actually believe the opposite, why bother saying:

Allegory wrote:
You act like the forum staff would be surprised at what they see.

...

The staff who peruse official boards for feedback are not setting foot on the internet for the first time. They know what forums are like, and are prepared to handle it. They expect people to overreact and make "I'm quitting <game> forever!" posts. They expect people to make fake legal threats. They expect there to be utterly stupid complaints. It's part of the job and they deal with it.


Isn't it funny that I'm not allowed to say "we" to speak for members of a forum which I have read quite regularly for years (and subsequently feel I have a good understanding of their collective and differing opinions), but you're allowed to speak for the non-existent FFXIV Official Forum staff?

Maybe I would have believed this argument if FFXI had official forums, and we could gauge how well SE forum representatives have dealt with the moderation of garbage and forwarding of insight in the past, and apply that to how they would do on an official FFXIV forum. But last I checked, there was no such thing. Yes, it would be great if we could have civilized official forums where moderators sifted through the crap and sent all the good stuff to the devs, but look at our own forums here at Alla. It's a low percentage, but you don't have to look very far to find someone saying something stupid and unfounded about FFXI and SE. These forums stay in check because it's mostly just fans of FFXI (and diligent moderators, of course), but an official forum undoubtedly sees a much higher concentration of non-fans and first-timers who are quick to complain about everything. Don't you think the absence of official forums says something about their ready-and-willingness to handle it? They can barely keep up with the POL blog and newsletters as it is. I'm just applying logic and observation when I say official forums wouldn't help (at least no more so than premier sites already do).

Allegory wrote:
If you were a teacher, and on the first day of class you discovered none of the kids could read, would you be surprised? Would you report back to the principal that the kids were atrociously undereducated? You might say yes initially, but have I mentioned yet that you are a preschool teacher? Suddenly it is not so surprising.


The teacher analogy is off-base. No preschooler has well-thought suggestions for how their teacher can improve the curriculum. SE is more like a high school teacher, working with a mixed bag of mature teenagers looking forward to the future and delinquents who might as well be preschoolers. Isn't it better for everyone when the whole classroom can settle down and act like responsible adults to make the teacher's day easier? You can't seriously mean to tell me that SE should just expect a bunch of preschoolers and deal with it. The whole reason we're having this argument in this thread is because there are people who act like preschoolers and think they should get their way first instead of the people acting mature about it; as one of the latter group, I'd hope my voice stands out.

Allegory wrote:
I disagree. The relationship between SE and the player base is exactly that of a company and a customer. We aren't equals, we aren't required to eat the same meal. Businesses serve customers. Customers pay businesses. It is not the customer's job to pat a business on the back and cheer it on.

No. SE is not an individual person; SE is a company. They don't cry when they are yelled at. They don't get their feelings hurt. They have staff sift through all the yelling, type it up into neat reports, and send it to the dev team for analysis and implementation.

Sometimes the yelling is very helpful to game companies. When a lot of people seem quite upset about an issue, then that sends a message to the company that people greatly care about this issue and believe it to be urgent.


You're certainly right, our job is to give money to SE and SE's job is to deliver a product and a service. That doesn't mean we should just keep kicking dirt in their faces until we get what we want, and then we'll kick some more dirt, because their job is to deal with it.

How can it possibly be a bad thing to cheer on the dev team? SE might be a business, but it is made up of humans, and it seems to me the devs are probably the most human of them all. If you understand the Japanese work ethic, you'd know a little praise can go a long way, because they are bred to work hard for the sake of the company rather than for the sake of themselves. Do you really think that some encouragement and a reminder that their fans appreciate the job they do wouldn't help? FFXI is a game crafted lovingly for its players, and despite its imperfections, almost every little thing the devs do they do for us.

Now by all means, you don't want to pile on the praise when things go wrong. I certainly agree that yelling can be helpful, but not for every single issue that comes up. When an issue is so severe that enough people yell to get noticed, this includes people who otherwise would not be yelling. The drive for the devs to quickly fix a severe issue comes when the usually dissident minority very suddenly becomes the dissident majority, and the SE PR people go, "Whoa, that's way more yelling than usual, we'd better get this to the devs fast." Of course their response time and how appropriate the response is a different issue, but my original point was that a good handful of people yell as if every little problem is a humongous one, instead of taking the hint from the people who only yell some of the time. Endless complaints can be just as bad as endless praise, and while only a handful of people really take to either extreme, these people are definitely what I'd consider "flying off the handle".

Allegory wrote:
You can't change the player base. You are attempting to treat the symptom rather than the disease. People complain for a reason. If you want the complaining to stop, then don't try to stop the complaining; stop the source of the complaint.


I never said we need to stop complaining, and I'm definitely not suggesting there's nothing to complain about. What needs to stop is people complaining about things as if SE is just out to ruin their lives and make FFXI the worst experience possible, as if they are intentionally trying to alienate their entire player base. Of course SE makes stupid decisions and limits the devs in ways we'd prefer they don't, but that's why we need to intelligently guide them along the right path instead of kicking dirt in their faces. Yeah, it's their job to eat the dirt we kick, and we have every right to kick that dirt, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to get what we want. And as stated before, playing too nice doesn't always work either, but SE and FFXI's player base have been slowly harmonizing over time, and it seems the people most vocal about speeding up that process are also kicking the most dirt. They'll need to embrace a better way if they really want a better relationship with SE and the devs, whatever that way may be.
#42 Aug 10 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yeah, you clearly know me pretty well. I'm a big tantrum thrower.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you specifically were, although I can see how you might come to that conclusion. I'm revering to the behavior found in several other threads.

Quote:
First of all, we don't know yet, so there's no point in getting upset, and certainly no point in throwing a tantrum.


This is certainly true.

Quote:
Secondly, there is merit in wanting male Miqo'te, and that's what I'm talking about. You know this, and I know this. Don't try to bullsh*t me on this. My bullsh*tometer is finely tuned and the needle flies out the mother@#%^ing gauge every time you post.


You're confusing merit with desire. There is nothing wrong with desire, but calling it merit is dishonest. Saying there is merit in the your desire for male Miqo'te is saying that you somehow deserve to be rewarded with their inclusion in the game. Do you actually feel that way? Is it more then just a desire? Do you actually feel like SE owes you Male Miqo'te as a reward of some kind?

Also, please don't tell me what I know, or that just because I disagree with you that I'm somehow trying to bullsh*t you. I don't care if you fantasize about having some kind of sh*t detecting gauge. Leave it out of the discussion please.

Quote:
And I was in no way implying that you or anyone else was a racist, simply drawing the corollary in the thought process.


You were portraying a non existent gender of a fictional race as an oppressed people, and then conferring the same status to the players that chose to identify with that gender/race combination. You then liken the people who don't want to see this combination in the game to people who don't want an option for black characters. The implication was very, very clearly that anyone who doesn't want male Miqo'te in the game is of the same type who wouldn't want black characters in the game. And the implication THERE is blatant. If this is not what you intended, then I would advise you to think very, very carefully in the future before bringing arguments involving racism into forum discussions.

Quote:
and by the way, it's Square Enix, not Sony, dumbass... way to show that you really have no knowledge of their work


Thanks for correcting me without being insulting.

Quote:
However, I am eternally miffed by idiots like you. So get it straight... if I throw a tantrum, it's not over manthras. It's over the fact that I have to share the same air as mouthbreathers like you, listening to your asinine arguments and desperate attempts at teh hards lojik.


"idiots like you"? "Mouthbreathers like you"? I take back what I said. You clearly enjoy your tantrums. And name calling.

Quote:
listening to your asinine arguments and desperate attempts at teh hards lojik.


"teh hards lojik"?

What?

???





Edited, Aug 10th 2009 7:38pm by keelut
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#43 Aug 10 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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You're confusing merit with desire. There is nothing wrong with desire, but calling it merit is dishonest. Saying there is merit in the your desire for male Miqo'te is saying that you somehow deserve to be rewarded with their inclusion in the game. Do you actually feel that way? Is it more then just a desire? Do you actually feel like SE owes you Male Miqo'te as a reward of some kind?


In a video game, or any recreation really, there is merit in desire.

I'll advise you to consult a dictionary about the definition of a tantrum. Insulting someone because they're being thick and probably disingenuous hardly qualifies as an emotional outburst.

Anyway, I'm done talking to you about this.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Aug 10 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'll advise you to consult a dictionary about the definition of a tantrum. Insulting someone because they're being thick and probably disingenuous hardly qualifies as an emotional outburst.


http://www.answers.com/tantrum

Tantrum: A fit of bad temper.

I'm pretty sure I'm using it correctly.

Thanks for calling me thick and disingenuous, by the way. Your need to resort to insults is telling.



Edited, Aug 10th 2009 8:03pm by keelut
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#45 Aug 10 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:


In a video game, or any recreation really, there is merit in desire.


So the answer is yes? You do feel like you deserve male Miqo'te? You feel like SE owes you male Miqo'te? Not just that you want them or that they would be nice to have, but that their conclusion is a debt that SE needs to pay?




Edited, Aug 10th 2009 8:22pm by keelut
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#46 Aug 10 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, temper. My temper is fine. It's very easy to think, "That guy's an idiot," and even say it, and just go about my business.

Quote:

So the answer is yes? You do feel like you deserve male Miqo'te? You feel like SE owes you male Miqo'te? Not just that you want them or that they would be nice to have, but that their conclusion is a debt that SE needs to pay?


Quote:
Anyway, I'm done talking to you about this.


re: I'm not wasting my time.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Aug 10 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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well to reply on how the topic has drifted.

I personally wish that the SE developers would take a page from WoW's developers and throw up the official forum and give feedback to their player base. That for me instilled a great deal of confidence in blizz, and imo is one of the reasons they're #1 in subs. (just one of the reasons). Developers can get ideas from their player base and wouldnt have to blindly follow the masses cries. WoW doesnt do that, their devs sometimes tell people to go f themselves.

My whole point is, I would LOVE to see an official forum with some feedback involved from the devs. That, combined with other forums of perhaps higher level(skill wise) players, would be a good recource for devs in making decisions.
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Morente wrote:

PUP is like Albert Einstein. Everyone thinks it's retarded until someone shows it's true potential.
#48 Aug 10 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know that much about WOW, but it seems like there has been a lot of QQing about the official forum in general. Personally I think it's a good idea, but then I'm not afraid that tons of bad suggestions will be implemented as a result.

What would be a win-win to me though would simply be if SE had daily polls online asking what players thought about various ideas for the game.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Aug 10 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I don't know that much about WOW, but it seems like there has been a lot of QQing about the official forum in general. Personally I think it's a good idea, but then I'm not afraid that tons of bad suggestions will be implemented as a result.

What would be a win-win to me though would simply be if SE had daily polls online asking what players thought about various ideas for the game.


Developers usually get their jobs by NOT implementing the STUPID suggestions players make. They're usually identified as bad ideas and ignored.
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Shaani - Cait sith
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Morente wrote:

PUP is like Albert Einstein. Everyone thinks it's retarded until someone shows it's true potential.
#50 Aug 10 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I don't know about that, but at least I'm not convinced that it's a bad idea.

I just noticed that you're from MO. I live in Columbia.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#51 Aug 10 2009 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Well I don't know about that, but at least I'm not convinced that it's a bad idea.

I just noticed that you're from MO. I live in Columbia.


Well in my experience I've never played an MMO where devs who listen and respond to their community (EVE, WoW namely), they never listen to the retarded folk.

I'm in Independence. I was down in columbia a few months ago.
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Shaani - Cait sith
75 Samurai
Other crap that isnt 75

Morente wrote:

PUP is like Albert Einstein. Everyone thinks it's retarded until someone shows it's true potential.
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