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Guildleve: Open world or Instance?Follow

#1 Aug 09 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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After reading Finaa's post about guildleve it left me with this question: Will FFXIV be instanced like guildwars or open world like FFXI?


I really do hope that FFXIV is open world. It's a nice feeling to be out exploring and running into a fellow adventurer. Or saving/being saved from cerin death from a drive by heal.

But, on the other hand I would like to see Guildleve work like assualt missions. you choose your mission and you enter at a staging point and play your instance. If you have multiple members in your party it'll adjust the instance to all the chosen missions.

Instanced areas would allow for faster paced battles with less net code to handle and avoid congested areas like NM camps. Make neat scripted events. But would make the game feel less alive.

Anyone elses thoughts?

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#2 Aug 09 2009 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I think my self that it will be open world like FFXI was because it was a lot nicer to actually see things going on and jump in. but it also lead to some frustrating drops so who knows.
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#3 Aug 09 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
It would be nice if you could play in an open world when you were exploring or grinding and instanced world while doing guildleve's.
#4 Aug 09 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would really like to see it being open world.
EDIT: I don't see much of a reason for it being instanced.

As far as I can remember (for the first 40 levels of the game I played) there were very few instanced areas in FFXI. I really enjoyed this.

I like always being able to interact with other people in the game, even if it is competing over a spot in a dungeon or over a mob.

I would like to be able to receive a leve and enter into the dungeon or area I need to go and find several other people there on the same quest who I can group up with, rather than running around town shouting. "LFG > GL #Insert name of leve here#."

Since FFXIV plans on using some of the latest technology, I also don't see a performance-related reason to use instances.

However, there is one reason why I believe that some guildleves (GL from hence forth) will be instanced...and that is because in the GL description on SE's website it says that normally forbidden or restricted areas will become available.
I suppose this could mean that only you and your party can enter or that only people who currently are taking that GL can enter that area. Once they are done they cannot go back.

This would also prevent extremely high level players from running a single person through the dungeon in 5 minutes.

While I'm at it I have an anecdote about that...you don't need to read it if you don't want to:
[When I was playing Perfect World there were only 10 or so people who were my level. We HAD to rely on each other to get through dungeons. If one or two people weren't online it was impossible to do. We were forced to work together because no one else was even close to us.
We learned our roles in the group and we did them well.

Later on, being level 60+, there were many people coming around who were level 19 and 29 asking for a single person about level 60 to run them through a dungeon...in world chat.

At this point there were hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of people at their level who could have helped them! At a single time there were maybe 5-10 people shouting in world chat for someone high level to run them through a dungeon, when if all of those people go together they could do it easily.

And sometimes other high level people did help them! This made the problem so much worse!

I was playing an alt character in a level 29 dungeon and the tank had no idea what he was doing. He didn't know what aggro was. When asked how he passed the level 19 dungeon and other bosses he replied that a high level person always helped him.

Needless to say, everyone in the group kept dying.]

So maybe instanced areas or dungeons would be good, but only if people who have that level active can enter...preventing things like from happening in FFXIV!!

Then again, what happens to the person who joins the game 4 or 5 years from now and can't find anyone else to help them? That's a dilemma.

And if the quest is "kill boss at end of dungeon" the boss sure better have a quick respawn rate because it's awful to finally get to the end of the dungeon just to realize another group just killed it and now you need to wait there for a few more hours before it comes back.

I guess both have their pros and cons.

(Why do I write such long posts?)

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 5:43pm by Finaa

Edited again for spelling errors.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 5:46pm by Finaa
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#5 Aug 09 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly kind of like that aspect of FFXI... the large parts of the game that are open world up until you get to the instanced boss fight. Semi-instanced boss pops are also fine with me.

But I definitely want an open world that allows you to explore it freely for no reason other than because you want to.
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#6 Aug 09 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they're will be any need to instance it. Especially if they just make respawns faster like WoW. Things could take forever to respawn in FF11...it was a pain.
#7 Aug 09 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Consider the possibility that instances are likely unnecessary. They already mentioned that some leves are for raid fights, so it is a possibility that they could make it so once the leveholder enters the area the raid boss pops (could even add a cut scene here) in the overworld claimed to the leveholder's party/alliance. By limiting spawns to leves it would prevent people from spamming events (like you could non-lockout instances).

This isn't saying that certain questline leves won't be instanced, but it is something to consider. If done right, guildleves could solve almost all of the NM/HNM issues that were had in FFXI. Even a form of progression could be added in where a player would have access to increasingly more difficult NM leves before getting access to HNM leves. This would encourage linkshell participation with certain core players to unlock these tiers of raid fights, and would further encourage them to bring more people up to speed with new leve sets to gain additional tries at HNMs.

If a linkshell only has, say, 3 tries at a very high tier HNM a week due to member access to those leves, it negates some of the argument for extremely low drop rates as well. Just a thought.
#8 Aug 09 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that it will be both an open world and have alot of instanced content.

For example, instead of having NMs and alot of people competing over claiming them. There could be different challenging guildleves. But on the otherhand there could also be quests that involve exploring an open world, such as the crawler's nest map quest from XI (it required players to pretty much travel to every area, not counting expansion areas).

Anyway, those are just two examples of instanced and open world content, but I really don't see any reason not to include a fair amount of both.
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#9 Aug 09 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think certain guild leves could be like assault missions from FFXI, which were instanced. Others just seem more like standard quests. For example, the leve about killing local vermin seems like your random "Kill 10 of these" quest, but there will probably be boss missions that will be instanced.
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#10 Aug 09 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think certain guild leves could be like assault missions from FFXI, which were instanced. Others just seem more like standard quests. For example, the leve about killing local vermin seems like your random "Kill 10 of these" quest, but there will probably be boss missions that will be instanced.


Yeah that was pretty much what I was "trying" to say, but I failed at articulating my thought. Rated up for conveying it better than me.

I really think that an assault type system would work for certain guildleves, whereas others will be open world. I just also hope that there are no longer any lottery spawned NMs in an open world and that they are replaced by guildleves or a forced spawn.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 9:56pm by kiworrior
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#11 Aug 09 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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What I like about Instances is that isolated environments are conducive to Scripted Events. I think this is something that really plays to SE's strengths. If there is one thing I have full faith and confidence in Square Enix, it's their ability to tell a story. I'm willing to sacrifice a little community interactivity if they use instances with scripted events to their fullest potential.

For example: when you take the golden idol off it's booby trapped pedestal the cave dungeon slowly begins filling with carbon monoxide and now it becomes a timed race for the exit.

In the Open World, this would be done by showing a cutscene and putting a timer on your screen that, if it runs out while your still in the cave, will cause you to die.

In an Instance with Scripted Events you can elevate that quest to an experience. As you begin to run, the air becomes an increasingly thick miasma. The mushrooms and mold clinging to the cave walls slowly begin to wither. A cloud of bats rushes past you as the other denizens of the cave sense danger and flee. In the midst of your desperate flight, you hear a scraping cough and catch a glimpse of some poor innocent bystander taking his last breath.

And if you want to get Phased Enviornments involved, you can keep that cave lifeless and stare at that NPC's corpse the next time you visit. (The drawback being people on different phases of a phased environment can't interact with eachother. Much more of an interactivity sacrifice, as Instances are temporary and Phases are permanent.)

In the open world, because you can't inconvenience anyone else who might be using the cave, you can't affect the environment. You have to rely solely on the timer to create a sense of urgency and danger. In the instanced world, nobody but the people involved are watching, so your free to use any trick in the book.



Edited, Aug 9th 2009 11:43pm by Zemzelette
#12 Aug 09 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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It would be nice if the world was generaly open, with a few instinces. If a world is too instinced everything feels disconected, and as pointed out by another instinced areas are much easier to tell stories in.
Maybe an open world but some Leve's access an instinced version of an area.
#13 Aug 10 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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TBH, just as long as it is not like guild wars, where only the cities are open world, I'll be happy. I hated that so much, the whole point of an MMO is to run into people while questing/xping and take on bigger challenges together, which is impossible unless you are in a hub city in Guild wars.
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#14 Aug 10 2009 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If a linkshell only has, say, 3 tries at a very high tier HNM a week due to member access to those leves, it negates some of the argument for extremely low drop rates as well. Just a thought.


Good god, don't tell me there are actually people arguing FOR extremely low drop rates? Who are these people that love being forced to do the same battles over and over?

Anyway, I want -some- instanced zones. You don't always want other players in the area, especially for the really big, tactical fights, and for story content. Having people stand around watching and talking while you're locked in epic combat generally takes away from the seamless realism than an open world attempts to create. But those areas should be relatively small generally... I really think XI had a pretty good balance in this respect.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Aug 10 2009 at 4:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Or you could simply trade the GL to a spawn point so that even if ppl are camping or killing mobs in the area it wont affect you in anyway. Also instead of spawn point having a "cooldown" just leave it up for other people. I think this would be a really simple fix, and allow for quick GL missions and still keep the world "open".
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#16 Aug 10 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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The problem with having other people around isn't that they can steal the mob, or even necessarily that they can interfere with the battle (even in a helpful way), but that they are -there-. You can see them talking, and it's a little strange to be fighting some massive beast while the people around you are either entirely disinterested or they're spectators.

I guess what I'm saying is, I tend to like big battles to be limited to people who are actually participating in some way, because when a giant *** dragon shows up, people should be running for their dear lives or trying to help you kill the *******.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Aug 10 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
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I think i disagree in the same way a bar fight breaks out ppl want to watch. Having these battles in an open area where ppl can watch or be helpful if they chose to be would be awesome.
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#18 Aug 10 2009 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I like to think there's a difference between two guys fighting in a bar and a group of people with swords and magic fighting a dragon in a bar. I think the response would probably be different.

Though I guess you never know when alcohol is in the mix.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Aug 10 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I am somewhat interested in your "dragon in the bar" concept. Maybe when I start my seaside pub I'll look into that option. Might need some help luring him into the building though. Any takers?
#20 Aug 11 2009 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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id like to see more areas like the prime avatar fights.
add in special conditional CS's and changing environments would be nice also.

imagine assault type outposts where u can enter special areas for specific high level quests, while most of the quests (like defend the farmer or w/e) take place outside in an open world where only that party can target and kill those specific mobs that attack (ala that mog expansion they had a while back where ppl would stand in from of qufim tower and spawn those weird mobs).

i guess what im trying to say is that id like to see boss fights or story driven events done thru instance while everything else done through open world. sorta reminds me of ff11's story missions really... but better.

or they could have 0 instanced areas and make everything appear with a ??? as long as u have the correct guildleve (bosses and rare junk) while everything else can be out in the open world (collect 10 mako grass (gather), kill 10 worms (hunter))

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 9:22am by Leyego
#21 Aug 11 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I highly doubt that SE will make this a purely Instanced game. That being said, they seem to be leaning more and more heavily into this instance side in FFXI. I may be completely mistaken, but I believe ZNMs are the only major open-world addition to the "quest" segment of the game in the last 2 expansions (I am not including campaign because at the moment, at least, it is merely a glorified way to gain exp). Assault, Salvage, Nyzul Isle... ect.

I suppose you could call Campaign Ops open-world quests, but mostly, from what I've seen, these tend to be short, or instanced themselves. So I guess SE feels if an event is longer than 5-10 minutes, it should be instanced in FFXI?

Taking this into account, I would not be surprised if we see a major implementation of instanced environments, but accessed through open-world areas, not unlike FFXI.

EDIT: Also, taking a look at those environment screenshots SE has provided so far, I cannot even fathom being the only person in those zones, areas, what have you. SE may do it, but I, at least, would feel lonely, hollow, and depressed being the only living soul, unless I happen to invite people into my massive, unpopulated haven.

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 10:44am by Hulan
#22 Aug 14 2009 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope that FF14, will open world or at least mostly open world, I never liked instances, but instances can have their time and place.
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#23 Aug 14 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally for me, one thing I have really missed was that, in a party, it was important for your puller to be experienced.. If it is instanced.. then the tank becomes the puller.. and another extra slot for caster dps..

That was one of the things that I really enjoyed about being in FFXI, in a group, you had in most cases, an experienced puller that helped you pull more xp/hr. due to their capabilities.

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