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Armor Wear-and-Tear in FFXIV?Follow

#1 Aug 09 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Hey all,

Forgive me if a topic on this has been posted already. I looked, but didn't see one.

Over in the FFXI forums, an occasionally controversial issue is whether armor and weapons should have to be repaired. This topic came up frequently following the 2005 economic crash of Vana'diel, as players debated how to go about jump-starting in-game trade. The concept is simple: armor wear-and-tear either forces more gear to be purchased from other players, or it encourages players to buy consumable ingredients for repairing their gear, or it promotes paying crafters to handle the work. I actually spoke out against this concept at that time, saying it was too late in the life of FFXI to introduce such a new concept.

But here comes FFXIV, and this passage in particular caught my eye -- it's page five from the Armoury section, titled "A Leeroy of All Trades":

Upon arriving home, Leeroy puts aside his fishing rod and takes up his trusty hammer, blacksmithery having ever been one of his passions. He knows, as does any adventurer, that preparation is the key to any battle, and so sets to working the dents out of his armor and sharpening the edge of his blade. It's all in a day's work.

Now, this could just be SE trying to illustrate a story with a colorful example. However, this does seem pretty specific.

I'm willing to bet that item wear-and-tear will be a part of FFXIV. If such a system is integrated from the game's launch, I'm wondering if this would be received better by the playerbase than it would have been in FFXI back in 2005. Although I was against it back then, I'd be in favor of it now. Players who are new to the game would be able to work on their crafting skills from Day 1, giving everyone a fair chance at staking their claim in the economy of refurbishment.

What do others think about this? Do you see this as just a story, or a sign of things to come?
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#2 Aug 09 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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I see this as a thing to come for sure, Wear and Tear has been stated to be in FFXIV. I have a really strong feeling that it will cause a demand for blacksmiths in the field or around town to fix people's equipment. which may in turn be a good way for the community to make it's own money other than through the AH and bazaar, something that's more actively needed.
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#3 Aug 09 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I think in one of Elmer's summations he said that a wear and tear system of some kind IS included in the game. I'm honestly not a fan, as I see it as a hassle but sometimes it can work to be not so foreboding to the player.

So, it will be included but..... I hope its not too troubling.
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#4 Aug 09 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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If they can somehow make it an enjoyable gameplay feature rather than a nuisance that gets in the way of the "actual" game, then I imagine I'll be ok with it.

I'm not sure I have that much faith in SE to manage that, but it's certainly possible. It's going to have to be something more enjoyable than fishing in FFXI at least, i.e., a minigame of sorts. Normally hearing this news would give me only the lowest hopes for such a feature, but they seem to have placed a lot more emphasis on crafting... so I'm thinking it must surely be much more fleshed out?

Well, I'm not that optimistic about it, but for the moment I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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#5 Aug 09 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Armor degradation will definitely be a part of FFXIV, but whether it will make a difference in maintaining a stable economy is hard to tell.

I would imagine that the ability to repair armor and weapons will stem from the Crafting Discipline (Disciples of the Hand, I believe). I would also imagine that the skill required for repair will correlate to the strength/rank (if such a thing exists) of the weapon.

I think it was also mentioned in another thread as well...that paying crafters to repair your weapons and armor will help increase the flow of money.
It sounds like the crafting career would be very lucrative and sought after.

And since FFXIV has mentioned, such as the Leeroy example, that people can switch from one discipline to another instantly, it doesn't seem that there is much to stop everyone from learning the "armor/weapon repair skill".

So now no one is being paid. Money isn't exchanging hands. If it was, then craftsman would be clearly wealthy (I don't think the idea will be to buy a new weapon once yours is worn out. I think SE is trying to let playingers 'bond' with their weapons...in the sense of a samurai and his sword) since repairing will be...well...mandatory.

And then what if players can get their weapons repaired at an NPC?
We all know some people will do this even if paying another player is less expensive, under the premise that paying another player makes them richer, and you poorer, and therefore giving them and edge over you.

I think that, given the option that anyone can become a craftsman and repair things, the idea of this being a way to encourage in-game trade is highly debatable.

However, I do support the idea of wear-and-tear. It adds realism without taking away the fun of the game in the way that, say, if you forgot to drink water or eat for 3 in-game days you would get incredibly weaker.

I think it is a reasonable addition to the game and can give people a break from constant fighting to sit down and repair their items.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 6:00pm by Finaa
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#6 Aug 09 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Finaa you have excellent points, and I agree.

I still feel like though that it could still be an option, who is saying that the ability to repair equipment right off the bat is possible. who knows but you are right it is debatable, this game needs to come out!
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#7 Aug 09 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Default
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I am against the repair factor, but SE in their infinite wisdom has seen fit to do it anyway. So there it is. My problem from it extends from the fact that it either seems like a hassle, or ruins my fun. An obstacle like this, in my mind, only serves to impede my adventure. I do not see crafting or gathering as fun aspects, nor do I find them adventurous. That being said, I do not want to impede crafters and gatherers from having their fun either. However, that fun still should not come at the price of my adventure. If they make this a relatively small and easy and very low cost issue, then I have no problem with it. However, if I have to deal with expensive prices to keep up gear that I have already spent a lot on, or earned from an event or quest, I will be extremely unhappy. If the rate of armor degradation is too high, that will make me unhappy. And finally, if it plain just becomes a point where I have to have blacksmith leveled to be able to deal with the problem, or I have to wait before I can do quests and events because I can't track a blacksmith down......... that would just be game breaking for me. I like the NPC idea, I would rather pay a friend to do it, but if one is not available what the **** do I do?

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 6:13pm by AmsaimSutavarg
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#8 Aug 09 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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In WOW you can pay a NPC to repair your gear after wear and tear. I bet something similar will be in FF14...though crafters were able to do this too. (it was a nice incentive to have a crafting class...not so much for crafters to make money with). Either way wear and tear is extremely important or else rare items will continuely decrease invalue as supply always increases. a problem on ffxi...which undermines crafting in the longer run and also forces SE to continutely come out with new craftable items better than the previous to keep crafters busy.
#9 Aug 09 2009 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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While I support armor repair, one thing I hope to never see in FFXIV is a failed repair (or even upgrade).

A game I used to play, Mabinogi, had a repair system as well. Only NPCs could repair weapons and each had a % success rate with prices going up exponentially with each %.

A guy who is trying to repair your weapon with a 90% rate may cost 30 gold per point to repair. But the guy with the 99% success rate is like 3000 or more gold per point.

And when they fail the total durability of the item decreases.
Meaning that once in battle it breaks much faster and more trips to the smith. Once it gets to 0/0 durability it's broken FOREVER (although there are still a lot of uses for a broken item...making it not a total waste).

Pretty much everyone used the 90% guy because it was so cheap and weapons broke quickly. Thankfully, there was a chance of extracting an enchant from a weapon and then applying it to your new weapon...but both the extration and application of the enchant can also fail.

And a failed enchant also reduces the items durability.

I don't think FFXI had upgrading weapons but I don't remember from the short time I played. But many games have upgrade options for weapons and armor, and if an upgrade fails the item loses durability. Many F2P games (hopefully FFXIV won't be) sell items that enable the user to upgrade with 100% success.

I just hope that failed repairing and/or upgrading doesn't occur to the point where items lose max durability and break. That would really bother me...
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#10 Aug 09 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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one thing i want to see that is not in most Wear and tear armor MMOs is the look of the armor when its durability is low.


Like...
90/100 Durability armor will have a few dents, cloth will have one or two small holes.

50/100 armor gets lots of dents with a little rust, cloth will start getting big holes.

10/100 armor is really rusted and dent, cloth armor is torn up and dirty.


i would like to see FFXIV to show the impact of armor durability to give it that next gen feel.
#11 Aug 09 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
While I support armor repair, one thing I hope to never see in FFXIV is a failed repair (or even upgrade).

A game I used to play, Mabinogi, had a repair system as well. Only NPCs could repair weapons and each had a % success rate with prices going up exponentially with each %.

A guy who is trying to repair your weapon with a 90% rate may cost 30 gold per point to repair. But the guy with the 99% success rate is like 3000 or more gold per point.

And when they fail the total durability of the item decreases.
Meaning that once in battle it breaks much faster and more trips to the smith. Once it gets to 0/0 durability it's broken FOREVER (although there are still a lot of uses for a broken item...making it not a total waste).

Pretty much everyone used the 90% guy because it was so cheap and weapons broke quickly. Thankfully, there was a chance of extracting an enchant from a weapon and then applying it to your new weapon...but both the extration and application of the enchant can also fail.

And a failed enchant also reduces the items durability.

I don't think FFXI had upgrading weapons but I don't remember from the short time I played. But many games have upgrade options for weapons and armor, and if an upgrade fails the item loses durability. Many F2P games (hopefully FFXIV won't be) sell items that enable the user to upgrade with 100% success.

I just hope that failed repairing and/or upgrading doesn't occur to the point where items lose max durability and break. That would really bother me...


I would be extremely disappointed in this game if they did that, and I am worried that they might add something like that if they do let you fix your own gear as well. I really liked how WoW did it, NPC's repaired your armor fully each time but depending on how damaged it was you would pay a certain amount. the more damage the higher the cost, also higher levels had to pay more for their armor to get repaired but at that point you had more gold so it evened out.
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#12 Aug 09 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
Hotly contested topic.

I don't like the idea of durability repair being put in the hands of the players. It's another one of those things where placing it at the behest of supply and demand can hugely impact the nature of the game. It's one thing to have it as a consistent, predictable, manageable gold sink in the game. It's another thing entirely to have to either level a profession just to keep your gear in good working order or pay potentially inflated prices to have another player do it for you.

If it's set up as a profession you can learn and then easily keep pace with as you level your combat discipline,that would be neat. If it's something along the lines of an FFXI style profession grind and you need escalating levels of skill to repair higher level gear, I think that would be a checkmark in the "Things that suck about FFXIV" column.
#13 Aug 09 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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personally i'd hate the fact that there is wear and tear gear. but if its going to be in the game i hope we can repair our own all the time. and please please no failure rate. it will be so crappy if i fail and have to buy more weapons, constantly craft it.
#14 Aug 09 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
First of all, will it be a hinderance? Yes but so are those mobs blocking my way. Overcoming hardship is what a MMO is about. If done correctly it can be a good part of the game.

Second, if its anything like XI, while anyone can learn the skill, not everyone will have it because some people will have directed their time and efforts elsewhere~ leveling up skills, and especially crafting takes some real resources and not everyone will be doing the same ones, and if they're hard enough, not everyone will have them all up. Combine that with the fact that different armor will probably take different crafts to repair and you may very will have a repair economy.
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#15 Aug 09 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is only semi-related, but one of my least favorite parts of Romancing SaGa on the PS2 was durability and repairs, which only applied to weapons. Weapons would break very fast, typically in the middle of a long dungeon leaving you with a useless character. To repair a weapon that has been tempered with some sort of material, you are forced to have more of that material, which is not always easy to find when you get into rarer items.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind repair in FFXIV. It's very clear this is a major part of Blacksmiths, but unless the process uses materials or resources of some sort, I can't see it requiring any sort of monetary transaction short of a courtesy tip. And don't forget that you can take up your own hammer.

Given our general understanding of the Guildleve system, it sounds like you won't be out on very long quests, so even if your equipment gets banged up it's probably not going to break before you get back to town. I'd also say it's a fair bet that skilled Blacksmiths will be able to increase the overall durability of gear, and perhaps be able to temporarily boost their effectiveness by tempering them and applying enchantments and stat boosts, or something to that effect.

It seems people are looking at it like, chest piece is 20/20 durability, chest piece goes down to 2/20 durability over time, pay a Blacksmith to restore it to 20/20, rinse, repeat. I'm positive there will be way more to it than that. Perhaps the Blacksmith can boost it to 25/20 with bonus HP/MP+ effects while the durability remains above 100%. More skilled Blacksmiths can give higher boosts with better effects, and so on. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but it can't be that hard to add some flavor to the process and make it more than just a tedious gilsink for the sake of giving crafters something to do.
#16 Aug 09 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm fine with periodic repair and maintenance as long as

1) It's not something we need to do with excessive frequency; and

2) There's no chance of losing your item due to a failed synth.

Otherwise, it seems like something that will move gil around between players and provide an additional incentive for crafters.
#17 Aug 10 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Aureliussir already posted the link, but after reading the OP I felt I had to link it again.

The discussion about equipment repair has been going on for a good while.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1246855068282198831&num=95&page=1
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#18 Aug 10 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A game I used to play, Mabinogi, had a repair system as well.


That system you described sounds horrible. It's just playing statistics. Not that crafting in XI wasn't essentially playing statistics, but at least it wasn't quite that dry.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Aug 10 2009 at 3:56 AM Rating: Default
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with the "craft-job" system, i can see a flaw somewhere...

i mean, if you are a blacksmith OR a leathercrafter

so how can you repair an armor with both metal AND leather ?
#20 Aug 10 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not overjoyed with the idea but as long as it doesn't wear out too fast I can live with it.
Maybe they can have npc's that repair if you can't find a player to do it and players could charge a few gil less than the npc.

I earned my money gardening last time as my plants would grow while I was leveling. I didn't have the time or patience to HELM and started the game when it was 5 years old and crafting wasn't so profitable.
I think I would enjoy being a blacksmith if it didn't take too much time away from the main story. It would be nice to fix my own gear and help others.
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