Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
This Forum is Read Only

Social Responsibility: An open letter to Square EnixFollow

#1 Aug 09 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,046 posts
Hello future fellow Eorzeans!

This is an open letter to SE. I don't exactly expect them to read this, but I am cognizant of the fact that they do check Allakhazam on occasion. So I write anyway, and of course, I put this here so that you all may comment yourselves and share your thoughts.

Back when I played FFXI, I recall the disclaimer:

"Exploring Vana'diel is a thrilling experience.
During your time here, you will be able to talk, join, and adventure with many other individuals in an experience that is unique to online games.

That being said, we have no desire to see your real life suffer as a consequence.
Don't forget your family, your friends, your school, or your work."

Wise advice. Play the game, have fun, but don't forget that this is a game and that when the power button switches off, life goes on. I—and many others—are happy that Square Enix was thoughtful enough to warn us of the dangers of getting lost in the game.

But in my FFXI career, I wondered: Was Square making a game where people could just come in and out fluidly, have fun, and resume their daily affairs? In my FFXI career: No. They weren't.** Quite to the contrary actually Square Enix's Final Fantasy XI was known for being a time sink, a commitment. The infamous (although possibly now dead) maxim at the time was: "Final Fantasy has jobs because that's what it really becomes." Oy! That doesn't sound like something that can compliment one's real life. That sounds like something that take's over one's life!

In the interest of the very real people who play this game, I'd like to personally remind Square Enix of the responsibility they have for making a game that can healthily compliment one's own life, as opposed to taking it over. Many things in XI were laborious, arduous, or just innately lengthly tasks. They seemed to be these things simply because. That is just simply, in my book, irresponsible, especially for a game that warns you every time you login to not forget the real world.

So to the designers and developers of XIV, I and many others implore you to create a game that is deep and engaging, but one that doesn't allow—or, allows alternatively—an experience that completely consumes us.

That said,
Happy adventuring!

Addendum
Seriha says it best:
Quote:
No amount of personal responsibility will alleviate the annoying aspects of time sinks.

Case and point. Does Square Enix have a role in helping to prevent our addictions? That question is secondary to whether or not SE makes a game that can be moderately and happily enjoyed in modest. This is the first and primary focus of my message.

**Final Fantasy XI hit the public in 2002***. I left in 2007. During my time, FFXI was considered a timesink game. FFXI may have changed after that. However, that's still a five year period where SE did not responsibly keep in mind its own disclaimer.

***There seems to be some debate about when the disclaimer was placed. Some say it was there in the original Japanese release. Others say that it was integrated in the American release. Therefore: It has been there since either 2002 or 2004.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 12:12pm by KPBeta

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:17pm by KPBeta

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:17pm by KPBeta
#2 Aug 09 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
209 posts
KPBeta wrote:

Back when I played FFXI, I recall the disclaimer:

"Exploring Vana'diel is a thrilling experience.
During your time here, you will be able to talk, join, and adventure with many other individuals in an experience that is unique to online games.

That being said, we have no desire to see your real life suffer as a consequence.
Don't forget your family, your friends, your school, or your work."


This made me 'lol' because I remember logging in for the first time and seeing this, at which time I also 'lol'ed'. Quite literally.

I thought to myself "Could people seriously get so absorbed that they forget about the real world?"

FFXI was only my second MMORPG, and I didn't find my first one (EQ) very interesting or addictive.

But FFXI totally hooked me.
Yes, the game required a lot of time to actually achieve things and I can recall countless hours waiting for NM spawns and traveling from one place to the next...and then waiting for a group when I got there.

However, I chose to play and to do things like waiting patiently for NMs to spawn. I didn't have to, but I did...and I got carried away.

I did forget my friends, my family, and my school work (which suffered the most from playing)

Yes, the game does require a lot of time. Some things in the game require more time than others. I chose to get involved with them and I chose to not sleep at night so that I could have that rare chance to get a rare drop from an NM that others were also competing for.

I think SE was making a game that required a lot of effort to achieve great things. Not just a game that anyone could walk into and in a week reach the max level and get all of the best gear. I liked it the way they made it.

Nevertheless I don't think SE was responsible for my deep interest in the game and my decrease in social life. I chose that path for myself and I even knew it was happening.

When I chose to quit, so I could go to college and get a good education, I uninstalled the game, deleted my character, and destroyed the CD.

It was tough to do, but I knew I had to if I wanted to do well in school.
____________________________
Toasting makes me uncomfortable. But toast I love. Never start the day without a good piece of toast. In fact, let's toast to toast.
#3 Aug 09 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,822 posts
Final Fantasy XI was, and still is a very flawed game when it comes to time consumption. It is very unbalanced. There are so many events, so many quests, missions and monsters that require you to play for very long periods of time. I always hated the Notorious Monster System, where you would stand around for hours and hours simply WAITING for a CHANCE to POSSIBLY claim something, that didn't even have a 100% drop?! Such madness. I always felt if you were able to claim, and kill something, you should be rewarded with it's spoils.

More than anything else I hate, was the lack of in game point systems. So many problems, and drama, arose from this. This is also what made the game start feeling like a job. People felt responsible to be at events, that were held weekly. People, including myself, sacrificed real life responsibilities because we "Have to be at Dynamis at ________ time" and "Have to be at salvage at _______ time" and "Have to be at limbus at _______ time" and if some obscure King or HNM was up at a bad window, we felt obligated to make that window.

The reason for this is, there was heavy competition for the spoils, so it was a test, to see who could prove themselves best, and most worthy of a certain drop. This not only made the game feel like a job, a very stressful one at that, but it also made a lot of needless drama.

There should be point systems, where people are rewarded for the effort they do put into something, regardless of how much or when it is. People need to feel like FFXIV is a game, and not another stressful job.
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#4 Aug 09 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
123 posts
Although I played FFXI for almost 4 years, and had a level 75 for 2 of them, I never joined an HNMLS or did end-game stuff. I tried Dynamis like twice and realized I didn't have time to commit 3 hours on a weekend night, where I could go out and hang with friends. Not to mention it was stupid and boring. I wasn't a fan of those large scale events because I never felt like I was making a huge difference anyway. Overall though that saved me from being totally addicted to the game. There were a few times I opted to play FFXI instead of study for a test, and I got a bad grade, but it never became a huge problem. One time I did decide to play FFXI over going out on a saturday night and immediately regretted the decision; I never did it again. I would rather ***** around and explore, or help my friends get their Moldivate Earrings, or something that I'm not going to be shunned on for backing out. One time I read a post on Allakhazam from someone who said their HNMLS leader asked him to change his work hours for sky runs, and that was the final nail in the coffin for me. I'm sorry that's just sad. I think Guildleves will really be a way for people to avoid addiction to FFXIV, and I can't wait to try them.
#5 Aug 09 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
**
296 posts
In my opinion, XIV is gonna have less of an impact on the average player's life than XI had for many of its subscribers. For two reasons:

1: XI has been described by the developers as more of a hard core experience, and XIV less so. It seems apparent that with XIV they are aiming to achieve a deep, rich world full of story and adventure like in XI, but with more options open to the player to advance his character in a way that is enjoyable and comfortable to him/her. I'm also confident that the dev team will take lessons learned from XI and endeavor to remove some of the timesinks that added many hours of playtime a week without adding much to our enjoyment of the game.

2: FFXI introduced a legion of Final Fantasy fans and console users to their very first (or first serious) foray into the MMO genre. By far the majority of my friends from my time in Vana'Diel were newbs to MMOs. Heck, my wife and I didn't have the slighest clue to what we were getting into when we started. That inexperience combined with the enthusiasm for the game quickly had many committing to far more than they ever would have expected coming in.

With FFXIV things in the MMO world have changed. Many of XIV's subscribers will be familiar with what they are getting into because of their experience with FFXI, WoW, or one of the many MMOs that have risen since. OF course there are gonna be first timers joining up, but millions more now know what to expect from an MMO, and that knowledge can help greatly when starting a new game. I know from firsthand experience that it is often easier to start a new MMO with firm boundaries in place than try to scale back commitments to a MMO that you might have gotten carried away with... especially when it comes to managing expectations placed on you by other players.



Now neither of those points are gonna prevent those that want to play XIV as a sort of alternate life from devoting all the time they wish to it. There are also going to be people that have problems maintaining a balance even though they wish to. But I'll bet that if the average player goes into XIV with solid limits on what amount of time they are willing to devote to it, they'll be able to keep that balance and still thoroughly enjoy the new world. The devs can do their part to streamline the grind, but the player ultimately has to set reasonable limits and stick to them.
#6 Aug 09 2009 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
****
5,684 posts
Quote:
In the interest of the very real people who play this game, I'd like to personally remind Square Enix of the responsibility they have for making a game that can healthily compliment one's own life, as opposed to taking it over.

It isn't SE's responsibility to keep people from wasting their lives in front of their games. It is the consumer's responsibility to know when "enough is enough" and when to logout.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#7 Aug 09 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,046 posts
The Bardalicious of Doom wrote:
Quote:
In the interest of the very real people who play this game, I'd like to personally remind Square Enix of the responsibility they have for making a game that can healthily compliment one's own life, as opposed to taking it over.

It isn't SE's responsibility to keep people from wasting their lives in front of their games. It is the consumer's responsibility to know when "enough is enough" and when to logout.


I knew this would come up. There are many counter-arguments to be made, but I think the most appropriate is the following:

Don't include a disclaimer when you know that anyone who follows the disclaimer cannot fully enjoy the product.

#8 Aug 09 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
**
394 posts
Quote:
Don't include a disclaimer when you know that anyone who follows the disclaimer cannot fully enjoy the product.


This disclaimer has been there since the beginning and was written at a time before WoW existed, when most people had never heard of wasting your life in front of an MMO save for maybe some EQ nut on Maury. And, more importantly, content in FFXI at that time was not as wide and varied, and though it was certainly challenging and required time, it was not nearly as demanding as it is now. In other words, plenty of people enjoyed FFXI in the early years while adhering to the disclaimer just fine.

Today, the disclaimer is archaic and obviously doesn't apply to what FFXI has become, or what MMO standards have become. People need to stop using it as an argument as if it was written yesterday, as if SE knew people would get physically ill fighting Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue when they wrote it. Part of the reason you pretty much have to devote your life to the game in order to "fully enjoy" it is because player and community-imposed standards expect you to be 75 overnight. FFXI has always been about enjoying the long road to the endgame, and it's not entirely SE's fault that players have lost sight of that.

Can you play FFXI casually and fully enjoy every single aspect of the game? No. Do you need to completely disregard the disclaimer in order to enjoy the game? Absolutely not.
#9 Aug 09 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
***
1,822 posts
TraumaFox wrote:
Quote:
Don't include a disclaimer when you know that anyone who follows the disclaimer cannot fully enjoy the product.


This disclaimer has been there since the beginning and was written at a time before WoW existed, when most people had never heard of wasting your life in front of an MMO save for maybe some EQ nut on Maury. And, more importantly, content in FFXI at that time was not as wide and varied, and though it was certainly challenging and required time, it was not nearly as demanding as it is now. In other words, plenty of people enjoyed FFXI in the early years while adhering to the disclaimer just fine.

Today, the disclaimer is archaic and obviously doesn't apply to what FFXI has become, or what MMO standards have become. People need to stop using it as an argument as if it was written yesterday, as if SE knew people would get physically ill fighting Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue when they wrote it. Part of the reason you pretty much have to devote your life to the game in order to "fully enjoy" it is because player and community-imposed standards expect you to be 75 overnight. FFXI has always been about enjoying the long road to the endgame, and it's not entirely SE's fault that players have lost sight of that.

Can you play FFXI casually and fully enjoy every single aspect of the game? No. Do you need to completely disregard the disclaimer in order to enjoy the game? Absolutely not.


Actually, the disclaimer was added a year or two after North American release. It might have always been there if you are European, but for North Americans it was added later on, it wasn't always there. If memory serves me right, it was added right before TOAU? Some one will need to confirm this though. But it has not always been there.

The game has also become more friendly as far as time requirements if anything. A long time ago you only had a few end game events to choose from, all of which took enormous amounts of time. Even sky, took a lot longer due to the systems that were in place. EXP took longer, even doing quests and missions took longer. Square Enix has made the game less time consuming in recent years, although it is still highly unbalanced.

I also hate the argument "It's not Square Enix's Fault". That is such bullcrap, no it wouldn't be their fault, if you could actually ACCOMPLISH things in a reasonable amount of time. But when you can't enjoy 90% of the end game content WITHOUT sacrificing your real life, then yes, it IS there fault.

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 7:38pm by EndlessJourney
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#10 Aug 09 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
*
65 posts
Quote:
Actually, the disclaimer was added a year or two after North American release. It might have always been there if you are European, but for North Americans it was added later on, it wasn't always there. If memory serves me right, it was added right before TOAU? Some one will need to confirm this though. But it has not always been there.


I started playing just after CoP came out and the disclaimer was there. it was my first MMO so it was very memorable since I was in high school back then lol I couldn't tell you before that but it was there.



Edited, Aug 9th 2009 9:42pm by Averrinicus

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 9:43pm by Averrinicus
____________________________
FFXI~RDM75-Blu60-Blm37~Retired
#11 Aug 09 2009 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
****
5,684 posts
KPBeta wrote:
The Bardalicious of Doom wrote:
Quote:
In the interest of the very real people who play this game, I'd like to personally remind Square Enix of the responsibility they have for making a game that can healthily compliment one's own life, as opposed to taking it over.

It isn't SE's responsibility to keep people from wasting their lives in front of their games. It is the consumer's responsibility to know when "enough is enough" and when to logout.


I knew this would come up. There are many counter-arguments to be made, but I think the most appropriate is the following:

Don't include a disclaimer when you know that anyone who follows the disclaimer cannot fully enjoy the product.


I never felt that I didn't enjoy playing FFXI, and I didn't "forget my friends, family, work, etc".

Maybe I'm in the minority, though.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#12 Aug 09 2009 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
*
65 posts
When I first Started I was a Freshmen in high school and had loads of time, the only activity I was in was ROTC. I played a lot and always til midnight, but I never forgot about school or friends and I still lived my normal life. now that I have a job though that has changed I don't have enough time to just sit and play for endless hours lol I don't see or hear about many people in the US having the really bad addictions such as people in Asia.
____________________________
FFXI~RDM75-Blu60-Blm37~Retired
#13 Aug 09 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
**
354 posts
Quote:
If memory serves me right, it was added right before TOAU?


Wrong. Was there since NA PS2 release at least.
____________________________
Orodruin 75THF 75NIN 60WAR
Mithra, Rank 10 San d'Oria

#14 Aug 09 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
209 posts
I started playing FFXI in October of '03...and the disclaimer was there.
I don't know when the game was released in NA...I just remember a friend said to me:

"OMG I found this awesome game you HAVE to play it with me!!!!!1"

So I did. I thought I could never get addicted.

I got addicted.

I played every night when I got home from school. I played Friday afternoon straight until sunday afternoon and then slept from about 2 PM to 6 AM on Monday to get ready for school.

I stayed up to 3 or 4 AM during the week, stopped doing homework, and only got 2-3 hours of sleep on most nights. I slept during school. My grades dropped. I didn't care.

I even dropped a class in spring of '04 so I had more time to play.

I started telling my father that my brother was using drugs (which he wasn't) just to get him in trouble and banned from using the PC so that I had more time to play.

It always worked.

Yea, I was addicted. And then I got accepted into a great university...the one of my choice...and I quickly realized that I was not going to have a future if I kept this up. Every time I logged in I saw that disclaimer and it finally sunk in.

It took a lot of determination to quit, but I finally did.
I swore off MMOs until I graduated from college and I succeeded.
I'm so glad I did.

Now I have rules in place for my gaming habits so control them. I already swore to myself that if I break any of these rules, even once, I have to quit FFXIV or not play it to begin with.

And I'm currently playing another MMORPG and doing great...but the urge is always there to skip work and play all day.

That disclaimer was really important for me. Without it, I may never have quit and I'd be living at home with my dad and probably be jobless.

My goal this time is to take it slow and have fun. The game isn't going anywhere and I don't need to be one of the most experienced players. I learned that being a high level and having the best gear doesn't always bring happiness...and in one case I missed out on a WHOLE lot of gameplay and fun because I rushed to the top.

(But of course the disclaimer could also be a way of SE protecting themselves from a lawsuit like "Your game got me addicted and I got fired from work and my wife divorced me...so I'm suing for lost wages and pain and suffering." There have been lawsuits for less...and people have won. Now SE can say "we warned you.")

Edited for spelling errors.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 12:32am by Finaa
____________________________
Toasting makes me uncomfortable. But toast I love. Never start the day without a good piece of toast. In fact, let's toast to toast.
#15 Aug 09 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,046 posts
TraumaFox wrote:
Quote:
Don't include a disclaimer when you know that anyone who follows the disclaimer cannot fully enjoy the product.


This disclaimer has been there since the beginning and was written at a time before WoW existed, when most people had never heard of wasting your life in front of an MMO save for maybe some EQ nut on Maury. And, more importantly, content in FFXI at that time was not as wide and varied, and though it was certainly challenging and required time, it was not nearly as demanding as it is now. In other words, plenty of people enjoyed FFXI in the early years while adhering to the disclaimer just fine.

Today, the disclaimer is archaic and obviously doesn't apply to what FFXI has become, or what MMO standards have become. People need to stop using it as an argument as if it was written yesterday, as if SE knew people would get physically ill fighting Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue when they wrote it. Part of the reason you pretty much have to devote your life to the game in order to "fully enjoy" it is because player and community-imposed standards expect you to be 75 overnight. FFXI has always been about enjoying the long road to the endgame, and it's not entirely SE's fault that players have lost sight of that.

Can you play FFXI casually and fully enjoy every single aspect of the game? No. Do you need to completely disregard the disclaimer in order to enjoy the game? Absolutely not.


The bulk of your post does not seem to support your concluding sentence. Am I missing something?
#16 Aug 09 2009 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
32 posts
As far as I can remember, the disclaimer was there from day one. I could be wrong though.

The way I basically feel about it, is I love long quests, I love time sinks, I like getting lost in the world and the game. I like playing all day... when I have time to. But real life has to take priority. I have a job and other commitments that can't be ignored. The only time I really have to play long hours is when I have a day off. And even then, I have to allow time to sleep (in before sleep is for the weak etc.) not because I can't play without sleep, as I have sacrificed sleep before to get something done, but because after a while it starts to impact my performance at work, and I can't allow that. No work = no money = no game.

What I'd like to see is a system that still has the several hour long quests, but allows you to do them at your own pace and still get something meaningful out of it in the end. For example, there could be a quest that takes eight hours to complete. Some people would have time to do it in one stretch. Others could do it a little at a time, like an hour a day or so, and in the end, everyone gets their reward, everyone's happy.

TL;DR I hate missing out on content because of a system that doesn't allow some exception for real life constraints.
#17 Aug 09 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
*
177 posts
SE has already said FF14 will be a casual game where you can play for as little as 30-60 minutes per sitting or whatever.
____________________________
People don't accept the truth if it's typed in a tone unsympathetic to them. It doesn't make something any less true if someone you don't like is the one to enlighten you.
#18 Aug 09 2009 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
It was there from day one.

Quote:
It isn't SE's responsibility to keep people from wasting their lives in front of their games. It is the consumer's responsibility to know when "enough is enough" and when to logout.


What a naively idealistic sentiment. In a responsible society, people look out for eachother, meaning both parties share the responsibility of ensuring one another's wellbeing. You wouldn't have a problem cutting off someone who had had too much to drink, or taking away their keys, would you? Not that I'm drawing a direct parallel between MMOs and alcohol of course, but the point is that you aren't absolved of responsibility when you deliberately enable irresponsible behaviors.


Anyway, it's tricky business in making an MMO that's not overly addictive from a psychological standpoint, while at the same time making an MMO that doesn't suck, but FFXI had some blatantly heinous offenders in its design.

Another reason I like having progress caps, myself. They discourage excessive playing, but don't force you to stop. You're only forced to break that one big goal of getting to the level cap into several smaller goals.

Even providing optional playtime limits would be better than nothing. Something to help the parents limit their kid's playtime at the very least.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Aug 10 2009 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
**
424 posts
The most ridiculous thing on this thread are the stories of MMO addiction... and how they think changes to the game will somehow prevent them from becoming 'addicted'.

If you were 'addicted' to FFXI and really sacrificed that much to play... then stop reading the FFXIV boards, you shouldn't play this game.

If you were just using the term 'addiction' because you were immature and irresponsible, then please, stop using that term, because you are immaturely and irresponsibly using the term addiction.

Of course, the immature and irresponsible won't stop saying they are addicted to a game... they are too immature and irresponsible.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#20 Aug 10 2009 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
What a bunch of nonsense that was.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Aug 10 2009 at 12:12 AM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
It was pretty simple. If you were addicted to FFXI, don't play a MMO.

Nobody should sympathize with the theory that a developer should make their second game less 'addictive' because people can't learn from their own mistakes.

Maybe if it was less fun you wouldn't get addicted? That's a great development idea.

Buy a Wii, and don't log into a MMO again. It's that simple.

Since we are on the subject... 'Second Skin' is still on Hulu for free.

If MMO addiction interests you, watch this. Just watch with a skeptical eye.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/87648/second-skin

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 4:15am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#22 Aug 10 2009 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Seems like another naive sentiment to me. There are plenty of people out there, especially young people, who do neglect their real lives to serious consequence playing MMOs. Telling them to just stop playing MMOs when their problem is obviously that they don't know when to stop playing MMOs seems very akin to telling an alcoholic that the solution to their problem is to just stop drinking, however nebulous the reality of the addiction is.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Aug 10 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
**
424 posts
Seriously, watch the movie.

Quote:
Telling them to just stop playing MMOs when their problem is obviously that they don't know when to stop playing MMOs seems very akin to telling an alcoholic that the solution to their problem is to just stop drinking, however nebulous the reality of the addiction is.


So your arguement is what? We should ban alcohol (MMOs)...

Or should alcohol (MMO) developers put warnings on their products?

Or perhaps a MMO that doesn't cause addiction? (sorta like alcohol without alcohol in it).

You seem to have ignored the fact that the only solution for an alcoholic is to just stop drinking. Not so naive of me to say that the solution to a MMO addiction is to just stop playing MMOs.

Quote:
Seems like another naive sentiment to me.


Yeah, it does.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:00am by Shazaamemt

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:00am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#24 Aug 10 2009 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
The point is fairly obvious I would think, which is to promote healthy moderation.

I'm not watching the movie. I've probably already seen it anyway. There are plenty of programs, for example, that help people cope with the way they consume alcohol, and effective efforts to prevent and treat alcoholism. But slapping a disclaimer on the login screen is about as effective as a "drink responsibly" tag at the end of your commercial.

I've already suggested at least one way in which the game could help prevent people playing too long without compromising the quality of the game, so there's that.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#25 Aug 10 2009 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
*
96 posts
Well I did play FFXI 5-6 yaers on and off,
especially in the old days, there was alot of timesink and not really much if you wanted to solo(just to get around was a pain). It did get a little better with campaign and the fields of valor, maby just added a little late I think.
As someone else said I also really hated the NM system, not really fun to wait for hours and hours.

It dose sound like SE have learned somthing, especially the new quest system in FFXIV sounds interesting.
Also looks like it's going to be easier to get around from start.

Oh and FFXI was my first mmorpg, so I didn't know any better :)

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 11:33am by CWinther
#26 Aug 10 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Quote:
The point is fairly obvious I would think, which is to promote healthy moderation.


So quick to abandon your 'addiction' theory?

Quote:
Telling them to just stop playing MMOs when their problem is obviously that they don't know when to stop playing MMOs seems very akin to telling an alcoholic that the solution to their problem is to just stop drinking, however nebulous the reality of the addiction is.


Yep, so apparently 'Healthy moderation' is the solution for alcoholics too..


Quote:
Seems like another naive sentiment to me.


yep
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#27 Aug 10 2009 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Yep, so apparently 'Healthy moderation' is the solution for alcoholics too..


If possible. More often learning moderation is not for recuperating alcoholics as much as preventing potential alcoholics from going down that road. But alcoholism is another beast.

Quote:
So quick to abandon your 'addiction' theory?


I have no idea what you're talking about, so I'm left to assume that it's more nonsense.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Aug 10 2009 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,822 posts
Shazaamemt, please shut up. You obviously know nothing of what you're talking about.

I'm not sure how much of FFXI you played, what you accomplished, or if you even played it at all. But the reason people got addicted to it is because to accomplish anything in 90% of end game FFXI you have to devote hours, days, weeks, months, years. You have to schedule, days of your week, hours of your day, all around the game. If you miss a event, you might lose "DKP" to the guy next to you, and when something great drops once in a blue moon, they'll get it over you. It gave people this feeling of having to do something "or else".

Even in more casual FFXI end game, you have to spend endless hours and hours upon hours just to get one thing or another done. This is why people became addicted. I partly agree with you, that if you do become addicted like that, you need to stop. But it doesn't mean there won't be, and aren't MMO's that would be suitable to some one's needs. MMO's that are less drastic on the time consumption, and allow more freedom. It also means a MMO should be less time consuming itself. NO ONE should have to play that much, no human being. It's almost like saying "It's okay for some people to be that addicted".

In FFXI, if you want to get ahead, you HAVE to become addicted, there are no if's and's or but's about it. That's WHY so many people became addicted. I very rarely saw some one addicted because they just enjoyed doing something a lot, or enjoyed leveling a lot, or something in the casual sense. The people that are addicted are the "Well I've got Dynamis at 4, Limbus at 8, tomorrow at noon Fafnir window opens, then I have salvage...etc...etc".

Now, there will always be people who play more than others, some can be classified addiction, some can be just people with plenty of time for one reason or another for their hobby. I think what needs to be done for this type of case is more horizontal progression, instead of just vertical. Meaning, you can get ahead faster, or you can get more things done, but some one who plays less per day will still end up in the same spot down the road if they keep at it. Once again, another reason I feel so strongly about in-game point systems.

If one person decides to do something a lot, they will get their reward quicker, and they might get more rewards faster, but the person playing less can still accomplish those things, just in a greater period of time. But at least they KNOW they are making progress, and can have fun in their shorter play time.
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#29 Aug 10 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Quote:

In FFXI, if you want to get ahead, you HAVE to become addicted, there are no if's and's or but's about it.


Quote:
Shazaamemt, please shut up. You obviously know nothing of what you're talking about.


Those are from endlessjourney.

This was what I said:

Quote:
It was pretty simple. If you were addicted to FFXI, don't play a MMO.


I played FFXI for 5 years, I am pretty familiar with the game.

What makes you people think playing a different MMO will make you put less play time in?

It is going to be another MMO, if you can't handle it, don't play.


The title of this thread is Social Responsibility.

What happened to Personal Responsibility?

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 6:59am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#30 Aug 10 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,822 posts
Shazaamemt wrote:
What makes you people think playing a different MMO will make you put less play time in?

It is going to be another MMO, if you can't handle it, don't play.


Are you blind? Seriously? Do you know not see that it's not as simple as you make it out to be? I can drive a car just fine, but if I try to drive a 18-Wheeler I'll probably wreck it. Does that mean I shouldn't drive at all? My God what don't you understand?

Here, let me explain it to you in big bold letters so you understand.

Because it will require less time out of you. Therefor, eliminating the cause that makes so many people so easily addicted.
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#31 Aug 10 2009 at 3:08 AM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Quote:
Because it will require less time out of you. Therefor, eliminating the cause that makes so many people so easily addicted.


That's like saying light beer will cause people to drink less.

I'm done here. No need for me to argue with such rational statements such as:
Quote:
I can drive a car just fine, but if I try to drive a 18-Wheeler I'll probably wreck it. Does that mean I shouldn't drive at all? My God what don't you understand?

(WTF?)

It certainly means you shouldn't drive an 18-wheeler. I don't even know what that means in the world of random metaphors.

(WTF?)

I made my point.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 7:09am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#32 Aug 10 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Putting aside that half of that still made next to no sense...

I'm all about personal responsibility. But it's not one or the other-- it's both. Yes, someone is responsible when they make a bad decision, but when you aid them in making bad decisions, you're responsible too. This whole "free will" notion and the personal blame that goes with it has been a failing philosophy for a long *** time.

Quote:
What makes you people think playing a different MMO will make you put less play time in?


Uh, because they won't have to in order to get things done, probably. In FFXI you -have- to sit around for three hours to claim something. And if you're not prepared to, why even bother? You -have- to keep xping when it's taken you hours just to find a working party... can't quit now. In FFXI, if you don't spend a great deal of time, you don't get anything done. So it's hours or nothing.

There aren't many other MMOs that have that problem.

Now they've added a lot more casual friendly content to FFXI, but they haven't phased out the bad content either. There are still some of the best items in the game that require that same level of commitment. In reality, no aspect of the game, or at least very few aspects of the game, to the point of novelty, should be that involved.

But thanks for the PSA.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#33 Aug 10 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,822 posts
Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
Because it will require less time out of you. Therefor, eliminating the cause that makes so many people so easily addicted.


That's like saying light beer will cause people to drink less.

I'm done here. No need for me to argue with such rational statements such as:
Quote:
I can drive a car just fine, but if I try to drive a 18-Wheeler I'll probably wreck it. Does that mean I shouldn't drive at all? My God what don't you understand?

(WTF?)

It certainly means you shouldn't drive an 18-wheeler. I don't even know what that means in the world of random metaphors.

(WTF?)

I made my point.


How can you not understand this...

You said "If you get addicted in FFXI, you shouldn't play FFXIV either".

FFXI is more time consuming than FFXIV will be, the developers said so themselves.

If you get addicted to something incredibly time consuming, does it mean you will absolutely get addicted to something a lot less time consuming?

If some one got addicted to FFXI because they needed to play 6 hours a day, to accomplish something, does it mean they will absolutely get addicted to something that only requires 1-2 hours a day to accomplish something?

It means if you can do one thing, but not another, does it mean you're not entitled to do the one thing?

If you get addicted because you felt you needed to play 6 hours a day to accomplish something, does that mean you are destined to get addicted on something that requires only 1-2 hours a day from you? What is addiction anyways? People felt they were required to spend 6+ hours a day to accomplish great goals on FFXI. If it only requires you to spend 1-2 hours a day on FFXIV to accomplish similar goals, doesn't it stand to reason there's a drastically lesser chance that people will play 6+ hours a day?
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#34 Aug 10 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
*
237 posts
It was kind of disingenuous for SE to have such a warning yet build this game up to do nothing more than what they tell us to avoid. I've made several statements about how SE jams virtue down our throats in this game in the form of tedium and time sinks.

This is the exact same thing as saying "drugs are bad, don't do drugs" and then they turn around and sell drugs. What does this say about SE's sense of virtue? Sure you can just not to indulge, but who turns down a game they want to play? They may as well not make games at all if they don't expect us to spend a lot of time playing them.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 1:46pm by baltz
#35 Aug 10 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,046 posts
Kachi wrote:


Even providing optional playtime limits would be better than nothing. Something to help the parents limit their kid's playtime at the very least.

I as a legal adult in the country of the United States would use this. Seriously. I think this is a really good idea and I'm sad to see that XI didn't have it.
#36 Aug 10 2009 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,084 posts
No amount of personal responsibility will alleviate the annoying aspects of time sinks. At its simplest, if you're doing one thing, you're not doing something else. Simply ignoring content because you can't fit it into your schedule isn't exactly a win, either. Anything and everything developed should see practical use by the majority. If it won't, then you start looking at the fact it's either a poor system to begin with or could use some more refinement. There's no mistaking FFXI is full of feature creep where an obviously incomplete event is unleashed upon the players and stuff that "should have been there from the start!" gets added later... if you're lucky.

The core issue is just making sure people feel rewarded for their time. Some are simply content with helping friends, but if you're forced to work with strangers you may never see again, then you have to start looking at fair distribution of loot and other rewards. When there's no incentive to aid another, those time sinks just multiply and add to player frustration. How many people should you then need to get stuff done? Well, that's open to debate. Anything more than 6 shouldn't be the norm. The more people you start adding, the more conflicts in schedule, languages, time zones, and "worth" start to multiply.

SE needs to practice what they preach and not just throw such a warning up to save face if someone who's had their life "ruined" tries to sue them.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#37 Aug 10 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
That message has been there since NA Beta.
____________________________
Kurokikaze
75DRG/75PLD/75SAM/75NIN/75DRK/72BLU
#38 Aug 10 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
209 posts
Just because someone got addicted to FFXI does not mean they will get addicted to all MMORPGs.

"If you got addicted to FFXI you shouldn't ever play an MMORPG ever again."

What a TERRIBLE statement.

That's akin to saying "You are addicted to McDonalds and therefore you shouldn't ever eat food again."

What a rediculous statement.

I WAS addicted to FFXI. I have played several other MMORPGs and I have not been nearly as "addicted" to them as I was to FFXI. In fact, I wouldn't say (concerning the definition and symptoms of addiction) that I wasn't addicted to any of the MMORPGs.

What made me more addicted to FFXI? Could it have been the game itself? Possibly.
Could it have been being in a preexisting negative environment at home? More than likely.

I used it as an escape mechanism from a lot of my personal problems...much in the way that a drug addict does. Often if you eliminate the problem you eliminate the addiction or the desire to use.

I have been playing MMORPGs responsibly over the past several months, just in the same way that a casual drinker can drink casually.
Just because someone was drinking a whole heck of a lot for a few months means they should never ever drink at all?

That's absolutely ludicrous.

The APA was considering listing video game addiction in the DSMIV (#?), but it didn't get accepted...however it is up for revision again in 2012 and I'm certain that, with revision, their definition of this type of addiction will get listed. Considering that there are already therapists that deal with video game addiction and recovery centers.

It is a real thing. Anyone who has dealt with it would know and unless you have, or know someone who has, you have no right to speak out and claim it as bogus or make such ridiculous statements like "FFXI = all MMORPGs".

When I 'got addicted' I didn't blame SE and never would. I blamed myself for getting too involved. I knew when enough was enough and I worked through it and I quit.

Now I don't have the responsibility of school work and I have the ability to play on weeknights after work. I know that without work I get no paycheck and without that I don't have a place to live.

I'm older now and I know better. I got my priorities straight.

So just because I acted irresponsibly and spent almost all of my senior year in HS playing FFXI, I should never play another MMORPG for the rest of my life?

Get real.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 12:40pm by Finaa
____________________________
Toasting makes me uncomfortable. But toast I love. Never start the day without a good piece of toast. In fact, let's toast to toast.
#39 Aug 10 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
*
98 posts
Quote:
Actually, the disclaimer was added a year or two after North American release. It might have always been there if you are European, but for North Americans it was added later on, it wasn't always there. If memory serves me right, it was added right before TOAU? Some one will need to confirm this though. But it has not always been there.


I know it was there when I started, that was march of 2004, I can't remember when it was released, but I do know that only Rise of Zilart expansion existed then.
#40 Aug 10 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
If you got addicted to the game then its your fault. SE makes the game to be fun, and they also have a goal of longevity. The disclaimer is a fair warning and more for legal reasons. If you choose to get addicted to a game then that is your choice and SE didn't make you play the game. If you choose to get so wrapped up in endgame that you became addicted then once again that is your choice. Blaming a company for your own personal choices, just shows that you are irresponsible. We are all grown up and can make grown up decisions. For the children that play then it is their parents fault, that they became addicted to a game. Be responsible for yourself and your own kids, monitor what they do and get them more involved outside of the house.

This is like saying companies should make beer nasty so people don't become addicted. Adults make the decision to go out and drink and you are responsible for your own actions. This is no different then the people that come home and play gears of war 2 all day everyday. Everything enjoyable has a risk of people becoming addicted to it. That could be playing sports, watching tv, playing video games, etc.

Saying SE made you "have" to become addicted to play the game is ridiculous. You get on the game and if you didn't want to play for long, when your time limit is up, you simply get off. If you could not fight the urge to get this gear or this level today, then thats your fault. If you wanted to be the best, so you needed that endgame gear then thats your fault again. Gear made much less of a difference then other games, so you wanting that gear was more personal then anything. If I want to be the best basketball player, i'm not going to blame the person that invented basketball, for me practicing and playing day in and day out.

Because you couldn't progress a lot in a short amount of time, that doesn't mean its their fault you got yourself addicted. Why does progression even matter that much, you could have fun as soon as you logged in. I know many rl friends that played for a little time and had fun doing many different things. Sure they didn't have 75 jobs, but they didn't care. They cared about having fun and enjoying the game in the time that they played. They made an enjoyable game that was instant fun depending on how you look at it. If you wanted elite gear and that got you addicted, then those are your wants and your fault. If you wanted to just have fun and do a couple quest and kill some mobs with your friends and log off that was possible also. Same as, if you want to just have one drink and have fun with your friends thats possible. But, don't blame the alcohol if you become an alcoholic, because its your choice at the beginning stage. You could say, Hey, I'm drinking (or playing) too much now i'm going to cut that out before it becomes a problem, or you can just keep going with it.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 12:51pm by HocusP
#41 Aug 10 2009 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
***
1,822 posts
HocusP wrote:
If you got addicted to the game then its your fault. SE makes the game to be fun, and they also have a goal of longevity. The disclaimer is a fair warning and more for legal reasons. If you choose to get addicted to a game then that is your choice and SE didn't make you play the game. If you choose to get so wrapped up in endgame that you became addicted then once again that is your choice. Blaming a company for your own personal choices, just shows that you are irresponsible. We are all grown up and can make grown up decisions. For the children that play then it is their parents fault, that they became addicted to a game. Be responsible for yourself and your own kids, monitor what they do and get them more involved outside of the house.

This is like saying companies should make beer nasty so people don't become addicted. Adults make the decision to go out and drink and you are responsible for your own actions. This is no different then the people that come home and play gears of war 2 all day everyday. Everything enjoyable has a risk of people becoming addicted to it. That could be playing sports, watching tv, playing video games, etc.

Saying SE made you "have" to become addicted to play the game is ridiculous. You get on the game and if you didn't want to play for long, when your time limit is up, you simply get off. If you could not fight the urge to get this gear or this level today, then thats your fault. If you wanted to be the best, so you needed that endgame gear then thats your fault again. Gear made much less of a difference then other games, so you wanting that gear was more personal then anything. If I want to be the best basketball player, i'm not going to blame the person that invented basketball, for me practicing and playing day in and day out.

Because you couldn't progress a lot in a short amount of time, that doesn't mean its their fault you got yourself addicted. Why does progression even matter that much, you could have fun as soon as you logged in. I know many rl friends that played for a little time and had fun doing many different things. Sure they didn't have 75 jobs, but they didn't care. They cared about having fun and enjoying the game in the time that they played. They made an enjoyable game that was instant fun depending on how you look at it. If you wanted elite gear and that got you addicted, then those are your wants and your fault. If you wanted to just have fun and do a couple quest and kill some mobs with your friends and log off that was possible also. Same as, if you want to just have one drink and have fun with your friends thats possible. But, don't blame the alcohol if you become an alcoholic, because its your choice at the beginning stage. You could say, Hey, I'm drinking (or playing) too much now i'm going to cut that out before it becomes a problem, or you can just keep going with it.


This thread amazes me. First, every post arguing against Shazaamemt got rated down, and all of his posts get rated up? Some one who thinks if you got addicted to FFXI you'll surely get addicted to FFXIV and shouldn't play? Not to bring up Karma but this is just retardation.

Then this post right here. Some people just do not get it, it's like trying to argue the issue of the big bang theory or evolution to a diehard 12 year old creationist. There are things they just cannot see and comprehend.

HocusP, Do you think there are people, who should become addicted? That for a group of people, it's okay to play the game 8 hours a day? Square Enix has systems in place that honestly forces you to do so if you want certain spoils, and want to do certain events. If you join a big HNMLS, which is the only way to access most of the end game content in FFXI, you are forced to do so. You shouldn't, I agree. I use to, and stopped. But does that mean it's not the companies fault for having those types of systems in place?

This isn't a argument about how responsible a adult should or shouldn't be. This is a argument about game mechanics and what it forces people into.

Quote:
Because you couldn't progress a lot, doesn't mean it's their fault you got addicted.


How do I even address this statement? It's like saying "Because a drug dealer gave that homeless man free cocain everyday, doesn't mean it's their fault they became addicted". They give you a choice. Play a lot, or do not progress and become better. It eventually is too much for some people, and gets to them. They want to progress, they want to be good like they see some others, so they do what those people did, and give up their real lives to achieve those things. This is the types of systems Square Enix has in place for FFXI, and this is why so many people became addicted.

Quote:
Saying SE made you "have" to become addicted to play the game is ridiculous.


When you make it to where progression in your game is accompanied by needing to play extremely long periods per day if you wish to make and progress, how is it NOT them making you addicted? It is your fault for becoming that way, but it is still them implementing the said system.

Quote:
This is no different then the people that come home and play gears of war 2 all day everyday.


Um, yes it is. You can play gears of war for an hour and do all kinds of fun stuff. There is nothing requiring you to stay on for 8 hours in a sitting. I think a lot of you are just idiots who didn't reach end game, and do not realize YOU HAVE TO BE ON FOR THAT LONG, YOU HAVE TO SCHEDULE YOUR REAL LIFE AROUND FFXI, OR YOU DO-NOT-GET-THE-GEAR from 95% of end game.

Quote:
Why does progression even matter that much, you could have fun as soon as you logged in.


Because THAT IS THE POINT of a god **** video game. Progression.

Quote:
SE makes the game to be fun


No they don't. Go ask ANYONE camping a NM, go ask ANYONE camping the Kings in end game, go ask ANYONE waiting around for dynamis to start, if they think it's fun. I dare you, find me one who says "I really enjoy this". They make the game addicting, so they you have the illusion that once you complete some of these almost impossible goals, you will have better gear, and better fun in the said gear.

Quote:
If you wanted elite gear and that got you addicted, then those are your wants and your fault.


It's the consumers fault for wanting to become good at a video game? Really?

Quote:
Everything enjoyable has a risk of people becoming addicted to it. That could be playing sports, watching tv, playing video games, etc.


You're absolutely right. But there's a reason movies aren't 8 hours long. FFXI requires you to spend those large amounts of time at it to progress in it, and to enjoy it to it's full extent.

Quote:
If you choose to get so wrapped up in endgame that you became addicted then once again that is your choice.


So once again, who is it okay for to play end game? In a ideal world, no one should be addicted, everyone should have a decent life, right? Then who is end game OKAY for? Please answer me that. If it's okay for nobody, and everyone stopped end game, are you still going to tell me Square Enix isn't at fault? Or that the people to continue end game are some how exempt from the rules of humanity?

Quote:
If I want to be the best basketball player, i'm not going to blame the person that invented basketball, for me practicing and playing day in and day out.


Basketball is a sport, Basketball is healthy for you. Playing that much will probably eventually land you in a college team or the NBA, and you could start making insane amounts of money. Most of the BEST basketball players STILL lead normal lives, have hobbies, and enjoy the world outside of their training.

But HocusP is one of those people, who do not understand these things. They are closed minded, they are the kind that says things cut and dry "IF SOMETHING IS WRONG THEN IT WAS YOUR FAULT". This kind of attitude makes me honestly want to cry, what has this forum come to? Where is the logic and intellectual mindset?

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 4:13pm by EndlessJourney
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#42 Aug 10 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
This thread amazes me. First, every post arguing against Shazaamemt got rated down, and all of his posts get rated up?


Haha, I noticed that too. I was WTF'ing for a second, especially because neither of them can rate due to them being rated down so often. I'm not sure what kind of people are reading the thread that you and I were rated down instead. Extremely curious when I stop to contemplate how many times they were rated down when they might not really have deserved it, but now of all times, they're what, the voice of the people? Baffling.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Aug 10 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
209 posts
Shazaamemt wrote:

If MMO addiction interests you, watch this. Just watch with a skeptical eye.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/87648/second-skin

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 4:15am by Shazaamemt


Well I just watched it and I found it really interesting.

They interviewed a few people who played MMORPGs and discussed how it made them feel, why they play, and what their lives are like.

With the exception of one or two they seemed pretty normal.

The one guy who said he would pee in a bottle so he wouldn't have to get up during a WoW raid was pretty pathetic. That literally made me 'lol'.

At first I 'lol'ed' at the guy who wanted a cooler and some ice so he didn't have to get up to the fridge to get a drink.
But then I remember that I had a minifridge (it was a gift from my father because the house I was living in at the time had 7 people on 3 floors, but only 2 fridges and there was no room for my food), and I plugged it in right next to my PC and it was great because I always had a cold drink right there.

I wasn't even playing an MMO at the time. Now I don't use the fridge because I have my own apartment.

Other than that, heck, I didn't see too much wrong with their behavior. They play games...a lot. It's a hobby.
I could relate to them on so many levels. Chances are that would have been me had I decided not to go college.

But their houses were extremely messy. That disgusted me. I try to keep my apartment very neat and if I eat at my PC I always clean it up before I go to bed. I don't let my gaming get in the way of my personal hygiene.

The sad thing is, if you think these people are bad there are much much worse.
I was a guild leader in Perfect World, and one player in my guild...the highest in the server...played constantly. He didn't have a job and he was in his mid twenties, lived alone, and smoked pot all day. It was a F2P game with an item mall and he always had insanely good items from doing microtransactions. He must have spent thousands of dollars in a few months on it.

The money was life insurance money he got when his mom died...

Then there is the guy who has over 300 WoW accounts (or something to that degree) so that he can do raids all by himself. What???

Yea FFXI was addictive because it was fun for me. I would rather enjoy the game and play a lot, then buy the game and play 1 hour a day and not really enjoy myself.

Although I've never played it, WoW has that reputation of being a 'casual' game.
But if you watched this movie you clearly saw that there are people addicted to it.

In other words, it doesn't mean that having to camp HNMs or do extremely long end-game quests (or whatever) ultimately leads to addicted. Even without these things, people will still become addicted. Even in a game that people consider casual...

So when FFXIV is being marketed as more casual does it mean that it will be less addictive? Who knows.

I think addiction is being confused with lengthy quests and feeling like you need to stay on to get that last rare weapon, even if it takes 6 hours.
Even if there were no HNMs and no quests that took 6 hours to complete, people would still be addicted.
Instead they would just do many many quests all night long.

The player has a responsibility to know when enough is enough and to say "I have to work tomorrow so I can get my paycheck and keep my stomach full and a roof over my head. It's time to call it a night."

One can blame the long quests and whatnot but I don't think spending hours to do that is the same if you log out when your done.
You're more likely addicted when you finish that 6 hour quest at 2 AM and, having planned on going to sleep, you say to yourself "Well...maybe one more quest or one more hour wouldn't hurt," which quickly turns into 2 or 3 or 4.

But just because someone was addicted to one game for one reason doesn't mean they'll be addicted to every MMORPG for any reason. FFXI and FFXIV are two different games.
No matter how "casual" it is someone is going to get addicted for one reason or another.
____________________________
Toasting makes me uncomfortable. But toast I love. Never start the day without a good piece of toast. In fact, let's toast to toast.
#44 Aug 10 2009 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
Quote:
When you make it to where progression in your game is accompanied by needing to play extremely long periods per day if you wish to make and progress, how is it NOT them making you addicted? It is your fault for becoming that way, but it is still them implementing the said system.


"It is your fault for becoming that way", is all that I needed. It is your fault for becoming that way, don't blame the maker of the game because you allowed yourself to become addicted.

Quote:
Um, yes it is. You can play gears of war for an hour and do all kinds of fun stuff. There is nothing requiring you to stay on for 8 hours in a sitting. I think a lot of you are just idiots who didn't reach end game, and do not realize YOU HAVE TO BE ON FOR THAT LONG, YOU HAVE TO SCHEDULE YOUR REAL LIFE AROUND FFXI, OR YOU DO-NOT-GET-THE-GEAR from 95% of end game.


You can play ffxi for an hour and have all kinds of fun also, many people do it everyday. If your idea of fun is have the best gear in the game then not, but thats your fault for having that idea of fun and then blaming SE on how you achieve this. I had 5 75 jobs (blm,war,sch,smn,brd) and full dynamis sets (for blm and war), one of the first on server (Na) with novio earring, and was heavily involved in endgame. This never took away from my job, school, social life, sports, or anything. I was not addicted and you don't have to be addicted to get gear. Planning your time, and being responsible was required in order to balance your life. I was not in an point based ls, my shell was a family tight-knit ls, and gear distributation was based on a lot of things, and not how many events you have been to. If you was in a point shell or something where you felt you had to play 24/7 to get drops then once again thats your choice of linkshells, and your fault.

Quote:

Basketball is a sport, Basketball is healthy for you. Playing that much will probably eventually land you in a college team or the NBA, and you could start making insane amounts of money. Most of the BEST basketball players STILL lead normal lives, have hobbies, and enjoy the world outside of their training.

But HocusP is one of those people, who do not understand these things. They are closed minded, they are the kind that says things cut and dry "IF SOMETHING IS WRONG THEN IT WAS YOUR FAULT". This kind of attitude makes me honestly want to cry, what has this forum come to? Where is the logic and intellectual mindset?


Basketball is a hobby that can be turned into an profession. Video games is also an hobby that can be turned into an profession. If you talk to or read interviews of huge game designers, they will tell you how it started for them just playing games at a point in time. Basketball being physically healthy to you have nothing to do with anything. An mmo can be emotionally healthy to you also, it promotes teamwork, and can build good social skills. It can teach you how to be a leader, and these are things that translate to the real world.

Endgame is for anybody that can handle it. Same as alcohol is for any adult that can handle it. If you can't handle it without becoming addicted then its not SE fault.

Quote:
When I 'got addicted' I didn't blame SE and never would. I blamed myself for getting too involved. I knew when enough was enough and I worked through it and I quit.


I respect Finna a lot for admitting that he/she was addicted and then putting the blame on the right person, yourself. SE is suppose to make an enjoyable game, and you never once blamed them for your addiction. Video game addiction is a very real thing, and blaming the video games is being irresponsible. Most addictions start, because of an underlying problem, rather that be not being accepted among society, family issues, or stress of everyday life, etc. I guess you should blame SE for the underlying problems in your life also that really caused the addiction and not the endgame.

Quote:

Although I've never played it, WoW has that reputation of being a 'casual' game.
But if you watched this movie you clearly saw that there are people addicted to it.

In other words, it doesn't mean that having to camp HNMs or do extremely long end-game quests (or whatever) ultimately leads to addicted. Even without these things, people will still become addicted. Even in a game that people consider casual...


Yes there are tons of people that are addicted to many games. Its not a SE thing, its a game wide thing, and there are people that is addicted to even gears of war. Anything enjoyable runs the risk of becoming an addiction to people and blaming everybody else but yourself isn't the way to go. Take responsibility for your own actions.



Edited, Aug 10th 2009 9:02pm by HocusP

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 9:10pm by HocusP
#45 Aug 10 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
*
180 posts
EndlessJourney wrote:
I also hate the argument "It's not Square Enix's Fault". That is such bullcrap, no it wouldn't be their fault, if you could actually ACCOMPLISH things in a reasonable amount of time. But when you can't enjoy 90% of the end game content WITHOUT sacrificing your real life, then yes, it IS there fault.


^This... exactly why I won't and can't do endgame. They made endgame, they knew it was time consuming and that players almost had to commit their life to the game to get things done. This is exactly why I'm excited about FFXIV which seems to be more time and player friendly.
____________________________
Yfandes of Bismarck
Almandine LS
DNC75(4/12/09)| BRD73 | DRG63 | RDM53 |
#46 Aug 10 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Default
*
54 posts
Finaa wrote:
Just because someone got addicted to FFXI does not mean they will get addicted to all MMORPGs.

Normally, if you really like "an MMO" and spend enough time in it you will get addicted to every MMO.

It's not an exact game that makes an addiction - you could play FFXI for 5 hours/week 4 years ago and now it's even less - like 2-3 hours (even 30-60 minutes if you choose path to solo). What makes an addiction is strife for achievments (and in some cases - strife for social interraction) - and desire to be mighty, prosperous or just level 75 drive you to spend more time in game and eventually bring addiction.

WoW for example, beeing a common reference for how casual mmo should look like, also beeing plagued by addiction.
#47 Aug 10 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
I know I said I was done with this thread, and I really don't have anything more to say on the topic

But I saw these quotes from Finaa. No arguments here, just a thanks to another poster for reaching across the aisle to see another point of view.

Quote:


Well I just watched it and I found it really interesting.



Thanks for looking beyond the thread and looking at the piece of relevant information I posted.

Quote:

Although I've never played it, WoW has that reputation of being a 'casual' game.
But if you watched this movie you clearly saw that there are people addicted to it.


I think that is a very good observation.

Quote:
No matter how "casual" it is someone is going to get addicted for one reason or another.


That is exactly what I was trying to say, although I never said it so concisely.

Btw, I think HocusP and I are coming from different viewpoints here.
Just gonna repost the link because it is still available on Hulu for free. Not a hacked link, it's on Hulu... for free.

If you really care about the discussion in this thread, this is a movie you should probably watch.







Edited, Aug 11th 2009 2:09am by Shazaamemt

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 2:10am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#48 Aug 12 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,046 posts
Phess wrote:
Finaa wrote:
Just because someone got addicted to FFXI does not mean they will get addicted to all MMORPGs.

Normally, if you really like "an MMO" and spend enough time in it you will get addicted to every MMO.

It's not an exact game that makes an addiction - you could play FFXI for 5 hours/week 4 years ago and now it's even less - like 2-3 hours (even 30-60 minutes if you choose path to solo). What makes an addiction is strife for achievments (and in some cases - strife for social interraction) - and desire to be mighty, prosperous or just level 75 drive you to spend more time in game and eventually bring addiction.

WoW for example, beeing a common reference for how casual mmo should look like, also beeing plagued by addiction.


The idea is not to eliminate irresponsibility. The idea is to narrow the margin for irresponsible play. Right now: Endgame can be misconstrued as irresponsible. You could be waiting 5 hours for an HNML event and be considered sane, normal, and functioning by all the people in your LS. To an outsider, 5 hours of nothing is a little strange, if not, irresponsible.



Edited, Aug 12th 2009 10:11pm by KPBeta
#49 Aug 12 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2008/08/pandemonium-war/
(The 18 hour boss fight)

While this does not deal with addiction per say, I think it does bring up the intial points of social responsiblity.

While they did eventually fix it, I personally think that having designed something to be anywhere close to that level is kind of negligant to your player base.
____________________________


#50 Aug 12 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
**
572 posts
KacesofCaitsith wrote:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2008/08/pandemonium-war/
(The 18 hour boss fight)

While this does not deal with addiction per say, I think it does bring up the intial points of social responsiblity.

While they did eventually fix it, I personally think that having designed something to be anywhere close to that level is kind of negligant to your player base.


Its not 18 hours fight, they attempted it for 18 hours, huge difference.

"Concerning the fight:

* 18 hours is not the length of the fight, it is the length of our attempt. There is no doubt in my or anyone else's mind that to beat it, you would need another 2-5 hours. Making this closer to a 20-24 hour fight.
* Most members took no breaks at all outside of waiting for weakness to wear if they died. Personally, I never even went to **** (adrenaline covered up everything for me).
* We did not take shifts or rotate, and did not expect an 18h fight.
* Only reason we never just gave up was because most of us were fueled by a really high amount of motivation and adrenaline, not truly 'feeling' how long the fight really was. We kept thinking we were almost there, and we thought we were (then low and behold, a new form pops). That combined with not wanting our previous efforts and weeks of work building the PW set to be for nothing, as well as how far we came in the fight.."

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/17133.html
I think once you know they fight to 100% and you know exactly what to do you can cut it down to a few hours.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 2:24am by Maldavian
#51 Aug 12 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Honestly, even a few hours for a fight is entirely ridiculous. At the absolute worst, it should take a few hours if you are completely incompetent and have no idea what you're doing.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 13 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (13)