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Social Responsibility: An open letter to Square EnixFollow

#52 Aug 13 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Honestly, even a few hours for a fight is entirely ridiculous. At the absolute worst, it should take a few hours if you are completely incompetent and have no idea what you're doing.

End-game means to be hard. Top end-game means to be very hard.

Why does everyone thinks that an average unskilled Joe with ****** eq should be able to see everything in game, and especially "it should take at max a few hours"? There should be also some content for hardcore people and there should be enough of it to keep them busy (some of them playing 5+ hours 7 days a week).
Normally such content is not a place for random casual players, but of course, many of them thinks high about themselves and go after this content - usually it ends up in whine that content is "too competitive" or "too hard" or "takes too much time to acomplish".

If something takes a few hours for completely incompetent people, it would take several minutes for competent people to finish - what the point for such hardcore content? Where is the challenge?

I do agree that 20 hours is a bit too much for a single combat, but 4-8 hours for first attempt (when there are really no tactic known) even for skilled players is pretty much normal. As for completely incompetent players - it should be wipe in 15 minutes without any chances of winning.
#53 Aug 13 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not even going to read all of what you just wrote because I see a fundamental problem with your observation right off the bat.

There is nothing meritoriously hard about a battle that takes a very long time. The same goes for having to do a battle several, even dozens of times because of low drop rates. And it goes also for camping for five minutes versus five hours.

And until you grasp how many games manage to be challenging without any of those elements, and how any MMO is capable of doing the same thing, I don't care about anything else that you might have to say.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#54Phess, Posted: Aug 13 2009 at 2:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And how many of them are successful MMO?
#55 Aug 13 2009 at 3:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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305 posts
Quote:
Its not 18 hours fight, they attempted it for 18 hours, huge difference.


Again, why is it even in the code that an encounter can last that long (or longer)?

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I think once you know they fight to 100% and you know exactly what to do you can cut it down to a few hours.


That is assuming that the players who did the fight were completely incompetant.To be honest, if you have the dedication to pull an 18 hour attempt i really do not think you are comepletely imcompentant. Granted, it does not mean that you are the best of the best, but i really do not think a crappy group of people would have the dedication or the skill to even make the encounter last that long.

To me, if you say that a crappy group of players can drag out an encounter that long it tells me that the content is incredibly easy and that skill does not determine whether you win or lose rather the time frame it takes to win.

And that is simply not the case.

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End-game means to be hard. Top end-game means to be very hard.


Time vested =/= hard.

Quote:
Why does everyone thinks that an average unskilled Joe with sh*tty eq should be able to see everything in game, and especially "it should take at max a few hours"? There should be also some content for hardcore people and there should be enough of it to keep them busy (some of them playing 5+ hours 7 days a week).
Normally such content is not a place for random casual players, but of course, many of them thinks high about themselves and go after this content - usually it ends up in whine that content is "too competitive" or "too hard" or "takes too much time to acomplish".


Being skilled or unskilled has absolutely no correlation to having hours at a time to devout to a particular encounter.

The encounters should be designed in such a way that if you are unskilled you simply cannot beat the encounter. Seriously, how does having a job, a family or any other rl obligation diminish your skill in a game?

Quote:

If something takes a few hours for completely incompetent people, it would take several minutes for competent people to finish - what the point for such hardcore content? Where is the challenge?


I would say its a flawed design if the completely incompetent people can even finish it. You preach skill and such, but really how skilled do you need to be when even a complete idiot can beat your content?

Quote:
I do agree that 20 hours is a bit too much for a single combat, but 4-8 hours for first attempt (when there are really no tactic known) even for skilled players is pretty much normal. As for completely incompetent players - it should be wipe in 15 minutes without any chances of winning.


You contradict yourself.

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Longer battle means more possibilities about errors and also means that it will require prolonged or even several tactics.


If in a 5 hour fight you have maybe 10 tactics changes and other such challenges to the fight, what is to keep you from having a 25 minute fight and the same tactics changes?

Quote:
And no one force to camp for five hours. IIRC those kings have several minutes-long windows to spawn, so it _possible_ to camp king just for several minutes a day. The real reason behind those 5-hour camping that kings drop highly valuable items and competion for them is fierce - so camping for just for several minutes will gives you a very low chance to get claim and so the items


I do not see how your statement makes any sense. This is not a line at an amusement park. Getting there rediculously early does not help you at all.

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Even "casual WoW" had (as i left and don't know current situation) both very prolonged raids, battles that can last hours and world spawn bosses.


You are very wrong here. The bulk of the encounters are designed in such a way that they take say 5 hours to do. Sure, on paper that is a long time. but it is not single encounters - it is an entire dungeon. Secondly, you can break up your attempts.

Unlike the linked boss fight, in wow you can take a break from the encounter /dungeon after 2 hours and continue later in the week.

Big difference. And that is part of the social responsiblity needed by the developers. these posts i linked simply prove the need for it. It is not alright to require hours to devout to a single encounter. It is not alright to require hours to claim a mob.

You want a skill filter? Time is not it. Difficulty is it. TIME =/= DIFFICULTY.
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#56 Aug 13 2009 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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@Phess: All I saw was a lot of words that did not begin with, "You're right," so I didn't read them.


As for the 18 hour fight, if you don't know anything about that LS, they are probably one of the most competent LSs out there. The blog that is linked to is by Rukenshin, who is widely recognized as a major contributor to current endgame practices. Chances are that if your LS does some of the more hardcore aspects of endgame, at least a part of your strat is thanks in part to him. Their LS has several relics among other things, and Rukenshin makes it pretty clear that the fight could probably not be won by even the best linkshells in 18 hours... it would probably take them at least a couple hours longer.

Point being, if it takes their LS 18 hours to LOSE after weeks of farming for the pop items, the number of LSs out there that really stand a chance at beating PW, which is made even laughably smaller by the number of LSs that can even muster up all the work to pop him, you can probably count on one hand. One hand of a man who lost some fingers working in a sawmill.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 4:49am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#57 Aug 13 2009 at 3:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Time Consuming & Tedious =/= Hard & Requiring Skill/Talent

I bet a lot of people on this forum think licking and sealing a million envelopes is the hardest things in the world and requires 1337 skillz/talentz.
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People don't accept the truth if it's typed in a tone unsympathetic to them. It doesn't make something any less true if someone you don't like is the one to enlighten you.
#58 Aug 13 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
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I think that there should be a lot of personal responsibility involved but I agree that SE has some responsibility to keep it under control. An hour or two boss fight is acceptable, any more than that is pushing it. Events that take around two to three hours to complete are good, but anymore than that and I think it's too much.

I think SE learned a lot from FFXI and especially the PW catastrophe so I don't think we're going to be in for any eighteen hour fights, but I do hope they keep a level of difficulty in the time it takes to win. And yes, time spent on a boss does equal skill because you have a lot to do to keep everyone alive while you are constantly under attack, but let's keep it reasonable and everyone will be happy.

edit: Also, DING DING! This is my 1,337 post. :D

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 7:47am by kyansaroo
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#59 Aug 13 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Doing something that takes a lot of time is a skill in the way that a lot of useless skills are also skills. Can you dribble a ball for five minutes? Then you've pretty much got it down well enough, so nice job. Now can you do it all day? Nobody gives a **** if you can or not. It's worthless and unimpressive. And the same can be said for nearly every instance in which the skill in question is "playing a video game," almost without exception to how difficult it is.

Endurance is one of the lowest virtues in the wide world of skill. It's merely an aspect that interplays with but is ultimately overshadowed by more compelling skills and abilities.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60Phess, Posted: Aug 13 2009 at 4:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not every time-consuming activities are hard, but some of them are.
#61Shezard, Posted: Aug 13 2009 at 5:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Actually...it IS as simple as he makes it here.
#62 Aug 13 2009 at 6:06 AM Rating: Good
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People who say that it won't make a difference make me have doubts about their self-awareness. So, you've never stayed at a party or event longer than you really wanted to, because you knew that you might not get another chance, or because you had already invested so much time in getting that far already? ********* You can say that people are just as likely to be addicted, fine, but that really doesn't amount to anything when they're still going to play less, do fewer marathon sessions, and endure fewer nights with lost sleep.

And a quick LOL to the idea that muscular endurance is comparable to mental endurance. At least muscular endurance has some merit as a skill, though of all aspects of physical skill and fitness, it's still the ***** of the lot. Considering mental endurance a skill is a joke. Hurr durr I've been training all day workin' on my focusin'.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Aug 13 2009 at 6:28 AM Rating: Default
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821 posts
Quote:
People who say that it won't make a difference make me have doubts about their self-awareness.


That's the whole deal about it. Getting addicted to something isn't forced by a game(or alcohol or w/e. Its your personal way of reacting/working with the things you're given.

Well ok, you need to be there for Nidhogg if you want the E/M/A Body...but who the **** forces you to be there at EVERY possible window. It's yourself that tells you need that Body ASAP. You don't have to be there for every Fafnir or Nidhogg, you will get you're E/M/A Body even if you only camp Fafnir Nidhogg, let's say, every 2 weeks. This will not be a burden for your social life and STILL you will be getting your Body one time or another, just not ASAP!

I can get drunk and still not being nearly addicted to alcohol, but I only get drunk like twice a month!! If I would get drunk everyday I would be addicted as **** but I tell myself that it's not good and will "damage" my life. If you would be just as responsible regarding MMOs...there would be no problem as well. But the problem is some people are more willing to get addicted than others...its a personal issue...it has nothing to do with games/alcohol/drugs or w/e!

And that's why its correct to say "If you got addicted to FFXI, you shouldn't play FFXIV because chance is high you will get addicted again". The only thing that will prevent you from that is your PERSONAL responsibility. Have you solved your issues with life? Are you ready to work responsible with the things you're given?
That's all things that come into play when playing video games on an "addiction level"
#64 Aug 13 2009 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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Shezard wrote:

Actually...it IS as simple as he makes it here.
Do you really even think you WON'T play FFXIV as much as you played FFXI, just because the Developers say "It will be casual friendly, you can achieve things, even with little times"


Um, Yes...

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The problem with people getting addicted is NEVER...REPEAT...NEVER the Game they play


Please, somebody out there, make the stupidity end. I beg of you.

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I played FFXI 3 years straight(sometimes 10h+ a day) until I realised I need to stop! Of course it took time to achieve things, but who forced you to achieve those things as fast as possible?


The developers.

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The Game didn't force you to wake up or stay up for that shining item you always wanted it is your own personal way of playing that tells you "You need that shiny item, or else you won't be worth sh*t"!!!


So is it okay for some people to display this sort of behavior? Because no matter who you are, for you to get these things done, some people will have to do this. What use is a game, if everyone is actually intelligent enough not to fall victim to this, and no one is there to do the events. It's still not the developers fault? If no one is doing them? Holy **** dude... How can you be so incredibly stupid?

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This kind of behaviour has nothing to do with the game you play


You've got to be kidding me... I... I don't know how to properly insult you to the degree you need to be insulted to at this point. You are 100% wrong.

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it is a personal disorder of your brain and probably a low self esteem that tells you, you will be a better human if you got that item before most else of your Linkshell.


Every human being alive has this disorder. It's called "aspirations". Where you draw the line very between individuals.

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I don't blame anyone for being that way, I have been(and still be a bit) like that. But I learned to control myself more. Non the less I will be 80% certain I will be playing FFXI more than I should to not get my social life in danger. But **** at least I am aware of that.


And you say WE have the personal disorders...?

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Now just one simple example for those who say FFXIV will be less addicting than FFXI, because you can achieve things in less time.


I'm not even going to address what you said about the missions. Missions aren't the problem, you can progress through them at your own pace, they never were the problem. It's end game, and end game systems.

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2. Now you got Sea Access after 3 months and can now focus on getting your Limbus Coins and Homam/Nashira Sets etc. To get all Limbus Items plus Full Homam/Nashira you took another 3-4 months.


How the **** did you get full Homam or Narshira in less than 6 months, without being the worlds most gigantic loot *****, or buying them?

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Ok, now lets sum it up, you played FFXI 7 months(5h+ a day) to achieve that.

Now let's say FFXIv will have the exact SAME achievements.

1. You play FFXIV for 2 weeks(5h+ a day) to get Sea Access and do Limbus and Jailers

2. Now you can play another 3 weeks to get Full Homam/Nashira and all Limbus Items.

Lets sum it up...5 weeks of playing(5h+ a day) to achieve the same things you achieved in FFXI.


In 6 months or so? Okay, gotcha.

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Now comes the clue!!!!!!!!

WHY...for GOD'S SAKE...WHY SHOULD YOU PLAY LESS JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN ACHIEVE THINGS FASTER?


Because you achieved your goal, feel accomplished, and can feel not so addicted. And for many people, it will allow them to be able to put the game down when the time comes in a day, and enjoy other things in life, also allowing them to enjoy their time on the game better, with less frustration.

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Everyone who played FFXI like it was their real life, will play FFXIV just the same way.


Bullsh*t. Go to ****, right now. Seriously. No one has ever made me as angry on these boards, with a more completely dumb *** retarded @#%^ing statement as you just did. You win the award as the stupidest person I've seen on any forum including 4chan with this remark.

Quote:
Well you don't need as long to reach your goals, as you did in FFXI, but this will only lead to achieving those goals even faster and focusing on new goals after you reached them. This will not prevent you of playing 5h+ a day it will only let you achieve more in 5h+ a day than you achieved in FFXI...


If you are some one who has no grasp or concept on life. Yes, but many of us played FFXI because we HAD to to achieve ONE THING at a time. And even at THAT many people tried to learn moderation the best they could. Allowing people to complete goals in a reasonable amount of time, for the majority of people with a brain, will allow them to not have to sit at a PC for 5+ hours at a time, and allow them to progress in those 2 hour spurts.

[quote]How stupid do you have to be not to realise that the time a game takes to achieve things, doesn't alter your way of playing.[/quote]

This is Epic. Please tell me you're just the worlds greatest troll.

[quote]If you want to play that long to achieve something[/quote]

You don't freaking get it do you? People DIDN'T want to play that long, or there wouldn't BE this thread. They were FORCED to, to ACHIEVE things.

[quote]you will play just as long in FFXIV to achieve more in the same time! PERIOD![/quote]

PERIOD! FACT! OMG! ABSOLUTELY! YOU ARE SO RIGHT ON THIS!

I'm glad you know exactly how everyone's personal behavior is PERIOD. Especially coming from a game that forces you into long periods of playtime at one sitting where you literally have no choice but to either stay there, or leave, and probably get kicked out of the group or lose your points. The thing and systems that pretty much everyone (including those who are hardcore into end game like myself) hate with a passion.

I wish you would get banned though, honestly. There needs to be a rule against being so amazingly stupid.

[quote]Who the @#%^ cared in FFXI if you needed 3 months or 2 years to get Sea Acess. The only one that cares is the player itself![/quote]

I'm going to stop addressing these and just quote them up for the lulz.

[quote]No one tells you you need to finish 3-5 Missions a day, one Mission a week can be just as rewarding if you LET yourself be happy with that![/quote]

This isn't the problem, and never was.

[quote]PS: I for once know, I won't play FFXIV as much as I played FFXI, but non the less I will play more than I should/need, that I am certain of! It's just the way I play MMOs[/quote]

Words escape me.

[quote]I am a very competitive person, I want to see/experience things, before most of the others do, because it makes me feel "special".[/quote]


[quote]Sounds stupid[/quote]

Ohh my friend, you have gone WAY past stupid, a long long time ago.

In summary... I don't even know how to sum this up. This is just epic, it is beyond epic. I don't know what Alla has become lately. There are plenty of logical and intelligent people posting on the FFXIV forum, and there are plenty of people that get on my nerves or I disagree with, as is life. But there is this influx of people who are just morbidly dumb, and they are ruining the feel of this site. It's very saddening.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 8:00am by EndlessJourney
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#65 Aug 13 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Addiction to videogames is a worldwide problem, not a SE problem. Even single player games (ultimate casual friendly game) has addictions and its because of other problems and not the game. People use enjoyable things (rather that be games, drugs, etc) as an escape from problems in their life. Competition and that drive to be the first and the best also clouds better judgement and can cause addiction among multiplayer videogames. You have the responsibility to cut yourself off, and if you don't then its your fault you got addicted.

Blaming a videogame for your addiction, just shows that you are irresonsible. The endgame could take 7 years to accomplish something, No one forces you to do it. The endgame system did not require an addiction to succeed, not even close. If you picked a point system linkshell that required you to be on 24/7, then thats your fault for picking such a linkshell. Like I said in the other thread, I was very much involved in the endgame and accomplished a ton, but it didn't require an addiction. It required being responsible and time management, and if thats too much to handle then you have more problems then ffxi endgame.

Insulting people other the internet (by constantly saying your stupid), just shows your irresponsible. This just proves the fact that being irresponsible caused your addiction along with other problems, and not the game. Your blaming the alcohol for your addiction, when its people that drink alcohol just fine and don't get addicted. The reason some people can and some can't is because of responsibility.

Quote:
So, you've never stayed at a party or event longer than you really wanted to, because you knew that you might not get another chance, or because you had already invested so much time in getting that far already?


No, not really. I stayed if I wanted too, but not because I felt like I was forced to stay. The game is not going anywhere, you can get that level another day. If you just felt like you had to get that level today, and couldn't just cut yourself off, then its your fault.

To the other issue thats being discussed, I believe there should be content for hardcore players. Their are players thats retired, or can play at work, or have a lot of time to play for many reasons, and they should be accounted for also. Just because these type of players are in the minority, doesn't mean some endgame content shouldn't be for them. I like how ffxi has went, they added a lot of casual friendly endgame events (salvage, einthejar, nyzul, etc), but kept kings for the more hardcore type of crowd. I don't see a problem with having hardcore endgame content, every piece of content is not for every type of player. Making a casual friendly game doesn't mean totally forget the people that do play 5-7 hours a day, and many days a week.

Making a boss that takes countless amount of hours is fine also, every boss is not for everyone, and they will be the first to admit that some gear is meant to be rare. Now, every boss shouldn't take this long, but I see no problem in making a few hard bosses that takes time for the hardcore crowd. The drops can't be exactly the same, because then it wouldn't make sense for the hardcore crowd to waste time killing these bosses, when they could just get the drops from the casual bosses. I think casual players should be able to get good gear, and maybe the hardcore hard bosses just drop a +1 type of gear. Not ground-breaking, but noticably better then casual boss gear.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 11:05am by HocusP

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 11:09am by HocusP

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 11:16am by HocusP
#66 Aug 13 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Default
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You can call me stupid as much as you like, that doesn't change the fact, that SE is not forcing people to play Endgame to its extend needed to achieve your goals, if it is ruining your social life.

It's not SE telling you, wait for 3 hours to "maybe" see Nidhog pop and MAYBE get your Item you want to have for long time or w/e. It's the people who make it that way. SE never said, Linkshells go to Draegon Aery and stay there for 4 hours to get the claim. SE intention probably was a seriously more "healthy" way. Go there and see if its there, if it is, go try to kill it. Its the players who started to **************** it up.

The players are the ones to decide HOW they play and how they WANT to play...!
#67 Aug 13 2009 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
You don't have to be there for every Fafnir or Nidhogg, you will get you're E/M/A Body even if you only camp Fafnir Nidhogg, let's say, every 2 weeks.


Please some one make it go away, this person's stupidity is astronomical, and needs to stop.
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#68 Aug 13 2009 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Shezard wrote:
You can call me stupid as much as you like, that doesn't change the fact, that SE is not forcing people to play Endgame to its extend needed to achieve your goals, if it is ruining your social life.


Quote:
SE is not forcing people to play Endgame to its extend needed to achieve your goals, if it is ruining your social life.


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forcing people to play Endgame to its extend needed to achieve your goals, if it is ruining your social life.


Quote:
play Endgame to its extend needed to achieve your goals, if it is ruining your social life.


If 10 hit is like 20 hit from rng on drg at camp site, is like 30 hit when 10 is
like range attack 30, is 30 like 10 when drg hit for damage like 30?
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#69 Aug 13 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You don't have to be there for every Fafnir or Nidhogg, you will get you're E/M/A Body even if you only camp Fafnir Nidhogg, let's say, every 2 weeks


Quote:
Please some one make it go away, this person's stupidity is astronomical, and needs to stop.


Endless are you retarded? That is actually a true statement. You don't have to play the lottery everyday to win, you can play once a month and win. Playing the lottery everyday just improves your chances of winning faster. It only takes that 1 time for your numbers to come out for you to win, even if you played once a month. Same as camping fafnir, you can come 1 day every two weeks. All it takes is for that 1 day you come, for a claim and kill and you could get your drops.



#70 Aug 13 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
You don't have to be there for every Fafnir or Nidhogg, you will get you're E/M/A Body even if you only camp Fafnir Nidhogg, let's say, every 2 weeks


Quote:
Please some one make it go away, this person's stupidity is astronomical, and needs to stop.


Quote:
Endless are you retarded?


No, but you and this other fellow obviously are.

[quote]That is actually a true statement. You don't have to play the lottery everyday to win, you can play once a month and win. Playing the lottery everyday just improves your chances of winning faster. It only takes that 1 time for your numbers to come out for you to win, even if you played once a month. Same as camping fafnir, you can come 1 day every two weeks. All it takes is for that 1 day you come, for a claim and kill and you could get your drops.


Okay, let me play your little stupidity game.

If you are in a shell, that is actually capable of claiming and defeating Fafnir/Nidhogg there are probably at least 18 or so people in it. Maybe a few less, maybe a few more. Out of those people, do you think if they are the kind of shell that camps kings, they will only camp once every 2 weeks? Whenever is convenient for you? No, they will be camping quite often.

When they do claim it, and kill it, if the item DOES drop, who do you think will get it? The guy who showed up once every two weeks, or the people who were diligent enough to actually camp it whenever the linkshell went out there?

Also, you are talking about "winning the lottery". Which there's always a honest one in a billion chance of. That person simply said you will get your E-Body etc from showing up once every two weeks, not winning the lottery. BIG DIFFERENCE THERE BUD.

That person, was explaining how they are, and enjoy being a leader. And also made reference to getting full Homam/Narshira in 3-4 months. There is some screwed leadership loot whoring going on there, or some serious favoritism.
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#71 Aug 13 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Okay, let me play your little stupidity game.

If you are in a shell, that is actually capable of claiming and defeating Fafnir/Nidhogg there are probably at least 18 or so people in it. Maybe a few less, maybe a few more. Out of those people, do you think if they are the kind of shell that camps kings, they will only camp once every 2 weeks? Whenever is convenient for you? No, they will be camping quite often.

When they do claim it, and kill it, if the item DOES drop, who do you think will get it? The guy who showed up once every two weeks, or the people who were diligent enough to actually camp it whenever the linkshell went out there?

Also, you are talking about "winning the lottery". Which there's always a honest one in a billion chance of. That person simply said you will get your E-Body etc from showing up once every two weeks, not winning the lottery. BIG DIFFERENCE THERE BUD.

That person, was explaining how they are, and enjoy being a leader. And also made reference to getting full Homam/Narshira in 3-4 months. There is some screwed leadership loot whoring going on there, or some serious favoritism.


A lot of shells are capable of killing fafnir/nidhogg, and how many times they camp it doesn't matter. When they are camping it and you are not on thats totally irrelevant to the situation. The person that would get it, depends on what linkshell you are in which again is your choice. No you wouldn't get it if you are in an point type linkshell. My linkshell was family-tight knit and yes we had people that only camped when they could (once or twice every 2 weeks) get drops. We had people log other people character on even when the person itself was not on, to leave a pleasent surprise (the drops). These type of shells do exist and maybe you should find one rather then join a greedy shell and blame SE. My favorite moments of FFXI is when zguy logged on and almost sh*t in his pants when he saw mbody, samething for yop when he say his ridill and a few other members.





Edited, Aug 13th 2009 11:35am by HocusP
#72 Aug 13 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:

A lot of shells are capable of killing fafnir/nidhogg, and how many times they camp it doesn't matter. When they are camping it and you are not on thats totally irrelevant to the situation. The person that would get it depends on what linkshell you are in which again is your choice. No you wouldn't get it if you are in an point type linkshell. My linkshell was family-tight knit and yes we had people that only camped when they could (once or twice every 2 weeks) get drops. We had people log other people character on even when the person itself was not on, to leave a pleasent surprise (the drops). These type of shells do exist and maybe you should find one rather then join a greedy shell and blame SE.


So your linkshell gave drops to people who signed on once every 2 weeks or so, to camp something once, over people who would camp it more often? This is part of being a tight knit group eh?

I remember back in the days, when corrupt linkshell leaders would use the "Greedy" argument. Basically they gave everything to themselves, or their "close knit" friends, while people who worked hard for long periods of time got the shaft, and wondered what they did wrong. Then when people would bring up such injustice, the leaders would just say they were being "Greedy" and guilt them into doing the grunt work for themselves, and their friends. So this is how you operate? That type of thing died out in FFXI for the most part, years ago. People wised up, and got sick of that ******** and being taken advantage of. A lot of end game linkshells disbanded over lost members because of this to. It still happens some times today.

(I sure hope FFXIV doesn't have such incredibly flawed loot systems as this)

However, you can go to the same **** as Shazretard up there. I'm 100% serious. MMORPG's need less people like you.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 8:40am by EndlessJourney
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#73 Aug 13 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's just one of aspects how to make encounter harder.
With time chances for critical errors rises. People get tired - this even more increase chances for errors.


Why would you want to include fatigue into video game design?

Quote:
Skill comes from practice. More practice = more skill, regardless what casuals think.
And even genius talent (that rare people have) cannot fully substitute experience.


What you miss is the fact that you cannot practice in sections of time, rather whole chunks. If being good at something takes 10 hours of training, it does not matter if its 2 hours for 5 days or 5 hours over 2 days.

Likewise, practicing for a few hours at something is completely different then having to spend a few hours consecutively to finally do the action.

Quote:
As I said - there are people that spend 4-8 hours a day in game - why they should not have some content for themselves? And if you have your job/family/whatsever - you can just pass on this content.


This statement is just so... off... that i do not know how to properly word what i want to say. Basically, there are people who will play that much. There are also people who will play for longer. Does that mean that there should be 12 hour long encounters?

Likewise, just because some people play an arbitrary amount of time does not mean that encounters should be created to encompass the entirety of that time.

Quote:
I never said other way.


When you said a "complete incompetent can beat it in hours" you did.

Quote:
Please read more carefully what you are answering to. I said that if content intended to last "several hours for incompetent" (and this is not *my* statement) - it will last minutes to competent players.


See above statement. Likewise, as someone else has said - the people attempting that encounter were some of the best of the best.

Quote:
As I said - idea is not to make bosses unbeatable (and if you make change tactic every second - it will sure be), idea is to make boss hard enough.


Your definition of hard so far has been time to fit tactic changes and fatigue into the encounter. I say that fatigue (or boredom) should never be included in a game. That said, having tactics change can easily be fit into a reasonable time frame.

Quote:
Spawn window is several minutes each hour (iirc) - so you can just get there for the first spawn window and then leave - it will be 10 minutes camping.


So, if the spawn window is from 3pm to 6 pm... what 10 minute window within each hour is it? Is it :15 to :25?

Quote:
First attempt on bosses in WoW usually takes at least hour. Linked attempts (which is common in WoW) can put raiding time to 6+ hours. Problem is that in WoW you usually not allowed to res mid-battle, so there is a distinct edge between attempts. FFXI allow you to mix attempts by constant raise cycle that makes attempt looks longer.


You did miss the point about being able to stop anytime in that 6 hour period and pick up again another day.

Anyway, lunch hour is ticking...
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#74 Aug 13 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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456 posts
Quote:
So your linkshell gave drops to people who signed on once every 2 weeks or so, to camp something once, over people who would camp it more often? This is part of being a tight nit group eh?

I remember back in the days, when corrupt linkshell leaders would use the "Greedy" argument. Basically they gave everything to themselves, or their "close knit" friends, while people who worked hard for long periods of time got the shaft, and wondered what they did wrong. Then when people would bring it up, they would just say they were being "Greedy" and guilt them into doing the grunt work for themselves, and their friends. So this is how you operate?

You can go to the same **** as Shazretard up there. I'm 100% serious. MMORPG's need less people like you.


First of all our linkshell was small and tight knit, and we would kill it with 12-14 usually. We claimed it a lot and I myself claimed a lot and I never ever played the game on computer (so no bots for me). I played on ps2/ps3 and xbox 360, and yes we would. The benefits of a small family type linkshell is, one you don't have people crying for drops, and two you dont need tons of drops.

The people that camped everyday had a lot and knew they would get it much faster so it was never a problem. We was a linkshell far when fafnir and stuff was new and it wasn't no competition at all (because their was no strat yet). The Jps would kill it sometimes but they used a kite method that would spike flail a lot because it was in the early stages on hnms. Back to the point, yes, we gave the drops to the person itself and no he wasn't the leader. We was all family and yes we logged a few people on just to get drops and their reactions when they logged on for themselves was priceless. I always wish I played on computer so I could take screenshots of the text, but I never could. None of these people were the leader (zguy, alduere, onrit, etc), so you are way off. I am sorry to admit this but these type of linkshells do exist.

The point is these linkshells exist, and maybe you should make one or find one. Greedy shells that require you to be on 24/7, is not SE fault. This is why i'm so excited about FFXIV, I will be starting it with my ex ls mates and my rl friends. Even after I quit, I talk to almost everybody from my small tight knit shell on a daily basis. Mostly through test messages or through AIM, and they are just as excited as I am to start the game with eachother.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 11:54am by HocusP
#75 Aug 13 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Aw, it looks like the powers that be have decided that I rate down a couple of idiots a little too often, so now I can only rate them up. It was fun for a while, almost like a FPS. Boom! Default headshot! Only without all the teabagging.

Well, you have not earned your reprieve, but enjoy it nonetheless.

Edit: I guess I'll have to learn to be more optimistic and just start rating up the people who aren't retarded. Maybe I'll try to sage EndlessJourney as a reward for saving me the trouble of speaking on my own behalf so often.


Edited, Aug 13th 2009 9:19am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#76 Aug 13 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Default
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54 posts
EndlessJourney wrote:
Shezard wrote:
You don't have to be there for every Fafnir or Nidhogg, you will get you're E/M/A Body even if you only camp Fafnir Nidhogg, let's say, every 2 weeks.

Please some one make it go away, this person's stupidity is astronomical, and needs to stop.

The problem is that you think that everyone are equal, but they are not.

Some people like to spend time in game. And they somehow get rewarded fot this.

Reducing time of event to 30 minutes but makes ten times more of them - and there will be a lot of complain from the very same people that they cannot afford to earn top-end gear because they just have no time for all of those events. But they are not intended to get those gears and this is usually what ****** casual players the most.
They don't want to spend insane amount of time, but yet want to be in the same position with those who spend so much time when it comes to "uber-loot".

EndlessJourney wrote:
So your linkshell gave drops to people who signed on once every 2 weeks or so, to camp something once, over people who would camp it more often? This is part of being a tight knit group eh?

DKP is quite often - so even if someone appear only once in two week he can eventually outbid any other player. Most likely he will be the last from initial setup of LS, but it's still possible.

KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Why would you want to include fatigue into video game design?

And why it shouldn't?
There are a lot of people who like hard things and various challenge. And no one really force you to participate in them - as I said there are enough of short end-game content to be busy even if you skip long-fight events.

Quote:
What you miss is the fact that you cannot practice in sections of time, rather whole chunks. If being good at something takes 10 hours of training, it does not matter if its 2 hours for 5 days or 5 hours over 2 days.

But you know, training 5 days for 5 hours is much better than 5 days for 2 hours :)

Quote:
Likewise, practicing for a few hours at something is completely different then having to spend a few hours consecutively to finally do the action.

Yes? Kirin required several hours at the beginning - now it tens of minutes. Molten Core requires like 50 hours for single run for starter guild, later it easily could be farmed in 2-4 hours.
Spending few hours to finally do action improves you skill, understanding of mechanics, cooperation with ls-members - so it always beneficial.

Quote:
This statement is just so... off... that i do not know how to properly word what i want to say. Basically, there are people who will play that much. There are also people who will play for longer. Does that mean that there should be 12 hour long encounters?

If it will please those people who play 12+ hours - than why not? You whine that SE don't listen to you about hardness and length of certain encounter, yet easily discard wishes of other people for more lenghty encounter.
As I said - leave such encounters for others - there is enough short-termed content for you.
If people will stick with content that is suitable for them and will not try to go somewhere they are not meant to (to whine afterwards) - if there will be no demand from target audience - there will be no such content and you will be happy with you 30-minutes events.

Quote:
Likewise, just because some people play an arbitrary amount of time does not mean that encounters should be created to encompass the entirety of that time.

If people want boss fight that last a hour - it would be good to create boss fight that last a hour?

Quote:
When you said a "complete incompetent can beat it in hours" you did.

Did you miss "If"? Go and read carefully.

Quote:
See above statement. Likewise, as someone else has said - the people attempting that encounter were some of the best of the best.

And it was their first try. I know some encounters that were not beeten in much longer time.
Again, as I said, 18 hours long is somewhat out of hand and I prefer first tries falls in 4-6 hours long (after wipe proof is established, but before farm state) category. I don't mind even 1-hour long farm encounter.

Quote:
Your definition of hard so far has been time to fit tactic changes and fatigue into the encounter. I say that fatigue (or boredom) should never be included in a game. That said, having tactics change can easily be fit into a reasonable time frame.

Why not? Some people likes it.
And if you don't - you are free not to participate. Not everything should be made to satisfy only you view on what is right and what is wrong.

Quote:
So, if the spawn window is from 3pm to 6 pm... what 10 minute window within each hour is it? Is it :15 to :25?

This means that you are inexperienced in raiding.
"The first chance for Fafnir to spawn is exactly 21 hours after his previous time of death."
So you only need 1 voluntary to write ToD and then be there in 21 hour. Simple.

Quote:
You did miss the point about being able to stop anytime in that 6 hour period and pick up again another day.

You did missed remark about how raids structured in FFXI and WoW and length of particular fight.
You can always stop raid in FFXI at any time - just say "enough, we wipe and try another time" - no one force you to try until boss killed or everyone downleveled to ****. It's just a bit harder as there are no really any edge that distinct tries in FFXI (unlike WoW).
#77 Aug 13 2009 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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158 posts
Whew, there's a lot going on in this thread. I just wanted to post here, not as a ZAM admin, but as a Master's level professional counselor. I've made gaming culture and the whole 'addiction' question my research interest, and it was interesting to read through the thread and see the different points of view.

Those of you posting on the 'personal' versus 'developer' responsibility should take heart. Both opinions are present in the literature of addiction treatment. Experts are arguing the importance of both positions constantly, whether the subject be gaming or gambling or alcohol or anything else. I have always felt that it's not a black and white issue. The OP (and Kachi, and others) have a point. The game design of the MMORPG has an impact on potential abuse. However, it's not really accurate in my experience to say that a more 'casual' game will automatically mean less abuse/overuse. Someone made the 'enabling' analogy, and I think that that is pretty accurate here. Game design is not creating these problems. However, I think that it is time for game developers to take a hard look at what is happening and their own role in it. It's not their fault, and they're not culpable for it. But while a hunting rifle is a perfectly safe and legal tool in the right hands, there is a reason that you can't just pick one up whenever you like, no questions asked.

The other side of the coin is the personal responsibility issue. Gaming abuse/overuse is more complicated than a simple addiction in some respects. Alcohol is the most frequent basis for comparison, but alcohol is a physical substance that has direct chemical impact on your brain and body. The term 'addiction' technically refers to this physical biological relationship between your body and a substance. The biological element is missing from gaming, and furthermore, a whole lot of other things are present.

Shazaamemt linked the Second Skin video, and I think that anyone who is interested in gaming give it a watch. It is the most comprehensive and open-minded take on the subject that I've seen thus far. In it you see the potential positives and negatives of gaming illustrated by real people. A lot of the focus on the video is on the 'addicted' people, but the film does a good job of showing that these people do not make up the entirety of the population. I can't recommend it enough.

The point here is that for a lot of the people who do end up in an abuse situation, it's not just about the game. Shezard really hit the nail on the head here. Just because you can accomplish things in less time does not automatically mean that you will spend less time playing. Playing a game to the detriment of your non-gaming life represents a lot more than 'this game is time-consuming'. The technical way to look at it is like this:

Problem + Coping Skill = Problematic Coping Skill.
Problematic Coping Skill - Coping Skill = Problem.

Initially, gaming is generally a coping skill. You have a dead end job. You're broke. You're in an unfulfilling relationship. Even the stereotype of having poor social skills and opportunities. MMOs can offer an excellent coping mechanism for these problems. Online, you can advance to the level of your ability. You are on the same footing as everybody else, you have the same options as everybody else (something which is impossible in real life). You can be anyone online, and no one knows you. These things can be incredibly seductive to many people, in positive and negative ways. Sometimes the usage of this coping mechanism become negative, and your real life suffers. However, simply removing the coping mechanism does not solve the problem. Whatever problems you had when you started gaming are still present, and are now likely exacerbated.

:shrugs: I don't have the answers. Mental Health research is still at a very early stage in investigating gaming. Frankly, even the treatment of more 'traditional' addictions is often very controversial. The point made in the film is probably the one I'm trying to make here. It's not simple. It is however a real problem, and everybody involved needs to be taking a hard look at it. The issue isn't going to go away just because game developers make games more causal. However, as the company making the game that is (even incidentially) involved in potentially extremely damaging abuse, they do have a responsibility to look into the issue.
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#78 Aug 13 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Appreciate your insights Snout. I do have a couple of things to say in response.

The first is just really the general idea of addicted players not necessarily playing less with less to do. And in fairness, I've been sitting on this for a while, but I've been meaning to say that in most cases "addiction" is probably not the most appropriate word choice. What most players "suffer" from is a compulsion. And their compulsion actually will subside when they have done all that they feel -compelled- to do.

Now having said that, even in regards to addicted players who admittedly will not necessarily stop playing with less to do, a game like FFXI ensures that there will be a lot of players who are NOT addicted and still don't stop playing when they should. And anyone who has played FFXI for any length of time should be able to recall many times when they wanted to call it a night, or they had something to do, but instead ended up staying for any number of reasons. You've been working on it for two hours, it should only take one more, oh wait, ends up being two more. Your group really needs you and they've worked really hard to get this far. You might not be able to get another group later on to attempt this task that you've already invested hours in. It's happened to me hundreds of times.

And FFXI really does draw a fine line between an addict's bargaining mechanisms, and your average player applying some time management and common sense.

Quote:
Alcohol is the most frequent basis for comparison, but alcohol is a physical substance that has direct chemical impact on your brain and body. The term 'addiction' technically refers to this physical biological relationship between your body and a substance. The biological element is missing from gaming, and furthermore, a whole lot of other things are present.


Actually, I wouldn't be so sure about that. While you are certainly not introducing foreign chemicals into the brain, there has been research (and unfortunately I do not have the citation handy) that certain activities like browsing the internet and playing video games have definite and marked effects on the brain's chemistry. My awareness of this phenomenon comes from my field, which is health and physical education. We've found that these activities actually generate the same brain waves that occur during physical activity and exercise, and in that sense they become a physical substitute for these behaviors while unfortunately providing none of those nifty health benefits. As I'm sure you're well aware, the brain possesses powerful chemicals of its own without the addition of outside substances.

It may be better likened to a marijuana addiction. Marijuana is not a physically addictive substance, but rarely people do become psychologically dependent on the chemical response it generates in their brains. It's not a textbook addiction, but the same complications can still present.

But I'll say again that the problem with FFXI is not limited merely to addicts-- that's sort of an unfortunate misnomer we've wandered into-- but anyone with compulsive tendencies, and that, I think, is where the game becomes very irresponsible.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#79 Aug 13 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Default
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Personal Responsibility: An open letter to MMO players.

If you are the type of person who will get so wrapped up in doing every possible thing in an MMO and you cannot afford the time commitment that this will require, don't start playing this MMO. SE is in the business of making a game that is engaging as possible. Their whole job is to make something that you want to play a lot. I would love to see a lot more content geared towards casual play in XIV, but there are always going to be rewards for players most dedicated to the game.

It's up to you to decide if having the most decked out end-game character on the server is more important than IRL responsibilities. Recovering alcoholics shouldn't drink people who loose their lives in MMOs shouldn't play at all. Simple as that.
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#80 Aug 13 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi, this is actually the first response from you thats objective in term of the topic. In comparison to Endless Journey the first real "noteworthy" comment other than just "are you stupid" ;)

Endless I gave up hope for you the moment you were offending the other users non-stop for them being dumb and stupid, just for pointing out that a game alone has nothing to do with "getting addicted". But well who am I to discredit your exceptional flawless arguments...

Back to the topic...quite satisfying that someone who got actual knowledge regarding the topic, points out that my point is valid. Just because you can achieve goals in less time does not affect your addiction, you just use the MORE time you got left to achieve even more goals, I still can't see where Endless is seeing "endless" stupidity in that...well but who cares.

And relating to the thing with Fafnir Nidhogg camping and only showing up once every 2 weeks. You can't seem to cut out that my point is not just you don't have to camp Faf/hog every freaking day but once every 2 weeks would be ok, but that also implies you won't get your most adorable E/M/A Body not as first in the LS. I don't know what your LS was like, but at some point EVERYONE got his freaking Bodys...and you not showing up every **** day will be the first in the ladder when THIS happens. Our LS started to sell M and A Bodys back in 2005 when I quit...sure...there are times when new people will join the LS and will get above you when it comes to DKP, IF they play as much as they can...but my LS was nice enough to say...hey your new to the LS, this guy is waiting extra ordinarily long for this item, yours will be the next one and still the person with lower dkp will get it, although he got less DKP.

If your LS is/was only pointing towards DKP and nothing else matters...well then what kind of a nice shell was that huh? I guess none of you were really "playing together", you were all just a bunch of people who played together for everyone to achieve their solo goals...that's not how I want to play...and that's not how I will play in FFXIV. And you picking on that one statement of getting Full Homam/Nashira in 4 months...god damnit that was an EXAMPLE...not a fact...I myself only got 2 Homam Pieces before I quit so get over it god damnit...

Guess what...me leading in FFXIV...I can assure you my LS will be one of the most "fair" loot distributing LS's you can imagine. I am not just pointing towards DKP, but social interaction with the LS and dedication(not just shown by /playtime) for distributing Loot...that's how it should be done IMO and that's how I will do it in my LS!
You can have fun in your LS where only people get their things, who show up 12h+ a day...Progression is not just about SOLO Progression of individuals, but progression of the LS as a whole. I know some people (*cough* Stanislav *cough*) who are socially the most **** MFing ********* you can imagine and you will see that by those persons playing like 5 Jobs, all to the Max, but only showing up as 1-2 Jobs to most events, but still wanting that **** item, for a Job he doesn't play that much, first before one of the other players who plays that Job to most events, because he wants to show off in that nice piece of equip...that will not happen in my LS. It will not benefit the LS if someone got that item sitting on his bank for his "alternate" job as long as he doesn't play it for the LS and other people who actually play that job need to run around gimped because he got less DKP...

Well, but that's only my personal view of that matter...everyone can do as they please!
#81 Aug 13 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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My perceptions of what a challenge is has been shaped by Monster Hunter, I keep bringing this game up because I see a lot of the aspects it has shaping the standards of online adventure gaming. So far some of the aspects of ffxiv seem to resemble MH. The introduction of FoV makes ffxi a pinch more like MH where it brings synergy to 2 otherwise time consuming tasks of leveling and farming. Although the fact its limited to 1 per hour is kind of lame, 2 per hour would have been pretty adequate.

Difficulty stems from the sense of urgency where in MH you have to keep your health up and avoid damaging attacks from mobs. You had to either avoid weak yet quick mobs, large and damaging mobs, or a combination of the 2. In ffxi the urgency comes from the healers keeping the tanks alive and the tanks keeping the hate off of everyone else.

SE seems to have issues scaling difficulty due to the fact that in endgame the power lies in numbers. They think that to increase the difficulty for an alliance of players they need to make the fights take longer. They increase the mobs HP, the lower the damage they take, they raise their evasion, they raise their elemental resistance and such and making them deal out high damage. FFXI is more about endurance the fight till the mob is taken down than slaying the mob.

Player-count vs. Time.

In MH the difficulty lies in how many hits a player can take before they die. For some of the major missions you can take maybe 2 critical hits before you die so you have to be cautious. They make the crucial mobs tough by increasing their HP and increasing their damage. MH is more about slaying the mob without dying(too much and failing the mission).

Player-tactics vs. tough mob.

Tho some may have issues with this comparison with an instanced action game vs a massive ATB game but My point lies in how difficulty is managed.

The way I see it, SE should have made mobs more difficult would be to make hate a lot looser rather than beefing up the mobs to last longer. This would make things a lot more difficult since players would have to take into consideration how much damage they are dishing out and how much cures are tossed around. getting a group of players to consider these nuances in more extreme situations could make things more challenging than just beefing mobs up to take longer to die.

The way I see it tho SE likes to reward perseverance, not competence. They seem to even punish or neglect a player-base due to the savvy of a some players(Like Avesta) or a subsection of players(BSTs as a whole).
#82 Aug 13 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Default
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Snout wrote:
Initially, gaming is generally a coping skill. You have a dead end job. You're broke. You're in an unfulfilling relationship. Even the stereotype of having poor social skills and opportunities. MMOs can offer an excellent coping mechanism for these problems. Online, you can advance to the level of your ability. You are on the same footing as everybody else, you have the same options as everybody else (something which is impossible in real life). You can be anyone online, and no one knows you. These things can be incredibly seductive to many people, in positive and negative ways. Sometimes the usage of this coping mechanism become negative, and your real life suffers. However, simply removing the coping mechanism does not solve the problem. Whatever problems you had when you started gaming are still present, and are now likely exacerbated.

Sometimes, but quite rare, MMO even helps people to fight their problem.
It easier for asocial people to break a barrier and start talk to people. It gives a nice opportunity to run off your problem and relax and wait until depression wears off. For uncertain and unconfident people it's an easy way to learn about confidence and self-power. Of course it will require mentality and willpower to do, but it's much easier to learn it in MMO then copy in real-life, that just do in real-life
And of course, most MMO force communication so you meet a lot of people and learn a lot of stuff.

The problem is that it commonly misused (as other addictive things).

P.S. And the last thought - rare person can maintain an addiction for MMO over the long time (10+ years) - i know only single, special cases, of this. Most people just became tired of MMO in general and if plays, plays for pleasure. There not much variety and things to do in a long run (unlike physical addiction when you just automatically recieve "fun" via chemicals and thus do not care)

Kachi wrote:
Your group really needs you and they've worked really hard to get this far.

This, from my exprerience, is the main problem, not the length of encounter or number of events. Eventually relationships in-game became quite a deep and important for person - it became hard to tell "I gonna log" and leave people for themselves, whether they need you for another part of event or for just another event.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 4:29pm by Phess

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 4:36pm by Phess
#83 Aug 13 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Because you achieved your goal, feel accomplished, and can feel not so addicted. And for many people, it will allow them to be able to put the game down when the time comes in a day, and enjoy other things in life, also allowing them to enjoy their time on the game better, with less frustration.


this is exactly how people who excercise personal responsibility tried to deal with this game. I loved ffxi when I used to play it but I had to quit when I realized I couldn't do anything in the game anymore without sacrificing time towards something else in my life. That is the ultimate exertion of personal responsibility (I think people are failing to mention this alternative). I'm hoping ffxiv won't force me to make the same decision again. I'm sorry to say this but if you're an adult who's married, has children, a fulltime job, and owns a home and you play ffxi until endgame you probably need to reprioritize your life. If you just have vast amounts of free time and very little responsility in RL then I think SE made ffxi just for you.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 3:00pm by LeadSalad
#84 Aug 13 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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572 posts
Well to wrap things up SE specifically said FF14 will have encounters/gameplay for people that can only play 30 min/day and for people that can play 24 hours/day. So by that statement you will in fact have encounters (might be endgame or mission or something else) that won't be doable for the people that can only play 30min/day.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 4:12pm by Maldavian
#85 Aug 13 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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It seems alot of post focus on the reason Square-enix has changed the format is because of addiction. Plain and simple truth is it was because of money(it always is)They could care less if we were addicted or not. Right now there really is only one choice.. spend the time or dont play. If they open it up for casual players to still enjoy the game,they wont loose revenue by these people quitting. I myself had to quit because i just didnt have the time to play for hours on end anymore. But if i still had the option to play once in awhile and "Enjoy" the game, i would have never quit. This is all about how can we keep a constant membership, and appeal to every type of gamer.
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#86 Aug 13 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Hey everyone, this is my first post in several years now I believe.

It's already been mentioned now, but I think the mistake of the thread was to get too much into the addiction discussion.

I'm in full agreement with the fact that FFXIV should provide more content that is possible to accomplish or play in a smaller amount of time. It provides for a more pleasant experience for me personally at least, because while I do have a fair amount of time to play games in, I'd rather not spend all that time in a single place in-game. That's just an opinion from a game design point of view. Fun or not fun.

But MMOs will be addictive at any rate. For one they provide social interaction which, for many people, will replace the social interactions out in the "real world". As well as the character growth/loot gains (which seems to be a staple in MMORPG's, and probably won't change because of the money the companies are making from it), and thus e-peening and feeling good about yourself in that you are good and/or dedicated to the game are factors as well. This side of it (the loot based one) could be decreased by the game designers, but again... Not likely to happen. But yeah, I definetely believe the social interaction (and I suppose the loot is actually a part of that as well, since your characters worth to other people is often measured through your equipment) is the main thing that gets people addicted to MMO's.

And if the time spent on events in FFXI *is* a factor in addiction (I don't really know a scientific answer), I think FFXIV would maybe just have other folks with different tastes in videogaming getting addicted.

So in the end, I don't really think SE has any responsibility in making the game less "addictive". In the end, it is up to the individual to take that responsibility and say no. I myself played FFXI for too long a time (I really enjoyed it in the beginning, but looking back I see that it just became a constant in my life, a constant which was totally unneeded), so I know that it can be hard. But at some point you have to look at what you're doing and ask yourself "is this really worth it? Is it worth whatever time I'm spending on the game?"

But yep, on a personal note I totally agree in that I hope FFXIV will be more accessible in terms of time spent -> things accomplished section. But I don't think the "addiction rate" will go down.
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#87 Aug 13 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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This site is to much for me to handle, I'm not sure if I can even continue posting here. Some people like Kachi seem to understand, there are plenty of others as well. But then we have a group of people, who like to think they know, and argue a opinion that is heavily against what the common majority of people in the FFXI community has agreed upon, for many years, for completely logical reasons. I see a lot of people chiming in, who have not done serious and involved end game in FFXI, or who come from other MMORPG's and try to relate how things might play out in FFXI end game.

This is probably the last post I'm going to make here, I'm not sure. For a long time Alla has had an extremely bad reputation through the online gaming community, especially on FFXI, and still does a lot of the time. This is because people were uneducated and would come here seeking acceptance and open opinions. Attitudes and mentality's like "This is okay" or "You can do this just fine" when it wasn't always the case. This site turned a deaf ear to many legitimate arguments for a long time. It started getting better, at least in the FFXI community after awhile. People started actually going against the grain, and thinking more about what they were saying.

I have lurked on this site since the FFXI boards on Alla were created, and started posting when the site actually started reforming itself for the better. When people started accepting things about a imperfect game, and opening their eyes to it's faults. However, the FFXIV forum is seeing a whole new influx of people. We have this whole new influx of people who want to argue their opinions, that are illogical and against the common majority. People who came out of the woodworks with the FFXIV section opened up, and will say almost anything.

The sad thing is, a lot of them just stay quiet, and make scholar status, and do stealth rating. They don't even chime in for their opinions a lot, and if they do it is quickly shot down by those with a valid argument.

It is getting to a point, where things that have been accepted, things that have been agreed upon in FFXI for a long time, are being argued by these people. Things that people have spent years discussing to come to agreements on, and things that the common majority eventually saw flawed in the game of FFXI, for valid reasons.

I'm tired of seeing this nonsense gotten away with, it's saddening as a community, to see this type of behavior even remotely accepted. As I said, most people still understand it, but there's this large influx of people going against the common wealth and opinion of what has been largely accepted for a long time. It is frustrating, and as I said, nonsense.




I will make one last valid argument to this thread, and try to sum some things up for everyone, so listen carefully.

In any MMORPG you can get addicted, this is absolutely true. In any video game, you can become addicted. In any enjoying part of life, you can become addicted. Addiction is a state of mind where a individual allows their self to do something more than they should, for whatever reasons. They neglect responsibilities, and indulge in pleasure.

Addictions come in at different levels, for different reasons. As I said, anyone can become addicted to almost anything pleasurable. You can get addicted to a sport, or to a hobby, or to any type of activity you find enjoyable, including video games. However, there are other addictions that come more severe. It is because if different reasons that other addictions are more easily cought and why people are unable to turn away from them as easily as others.

Things like Alcohol addiction, drug addiction, *** addiction. These things, and things like this, provide instant gratification and larger amounts of euphoria for the time invested in them. People then feel a need, instead of a desire, to indulge in such addictions.

As anyone with common sense (which is severely lacking on this site) would know, it's a lot easier to become addicted to something like cocain if you start doing it, than it is to become addicted to a healthy sport like basketball. I've played sports in my life, where I invested a ton of time into them, and had many hobbies I invested much time into as well. There were times when that's all I wanted to do, but it was easy to draw the line and accept when it was time to stop.

There was less of a "need" for it, it was there to be enjoyed. You didn't have to continue doing it, to feel good. You could come back and do it later. It didn't have certain addictive properties that other things like drugs and alcohol etch into your brain and it's very chemicals.

How does this tie into FFXI and FFXIV?

In FFXI, it is true, many people became addicted for the wrong reasons. They wanted that "one more level" they wanted that "one more stack" they wanted that "one more quest" or "one more mission". There were, and are many people like this. However, the majority of people knew when enough was enough. They knew when it was time to tell your EXP PT you had to go to bed, for work in the morning. Most people knew when it was time to put the game down, and adhere to their responsibilities.

In the end, you got to where you were going slower, you got your levels slower, you might even miss out on a mission or two, maybe a static or two. But you could pick up where you left off, and continue another day, knowing you could accomplish what you were trying to do.

Then came end game, and the end game systems of FFXI.

My first example will be Dynamis. Many of you know what Dynamis is, many of you don't. Many of you had points systems that worked for you, but for many they weren't always so fortunate to find one, or to be accepted into one they wanted, for whatever reason and these people had to do the best with what they were given.

In Dynamis, for most linkshells, it takes people at least 30 minutes or so to gather together. Most dynamis shells usually enter 15-30 minutes after the gather together time. This time comes twice a week, and a Dynamis Raid lasts for 3-4 hours, depending on the zone you are doing. Now, the bad thing is, most people have to schedule their real life around such a event. Another thing is they have to adhere to people in more than one time zone most commonly. So it's going to always be a bit early for people in one area, or a bit late for people in another area.

Most commonly, good people will arrive early. Sadly, a lot of the time many others will arrive late. For most people it common to wait about 1 hour for Dynamis to begin. Now, putting that aside, once you are in you will be there for 3-4 hours. That's a total of 4-5 hours that are required. The linkshell leaders expect people to stay, unless they have something come up, or something they absolutely have to get to. If for some reason people can never make the full run, or simply leave earlier than expected, most linkshells will either kick you or ask you to leave, or at the very least, you will not obtain AF2, as there are people working much harder than you for it.

Another thing to take note, is linkshells don't last forever. For a fortunate few, they do, and those folks are lucky. But linkshells will commonly disband, for the craziest of issues some times. The saddest part is, for these events, there is no in game point system saving your progress. So it becomes a race, to see who can get what they want the quickest. It creates this feeling of obligation within people, that they must do their very best, make as many if not all runs as possible, and stay for the entire time. This same system follows many end game events as well.

Dynamis is just one instance, there are many. There is Sky, which can require many hours at a time of farming, even though in my opinion this event can be made more casual. When you do God-Pops, you know you will usually be on for at least 2-3 hours though. But more commonly, for most people, it ends up being more. Limbus, is a more kind scenario, and requires less time, however the same story can happen in Limbus as does with Dynamis.

Then there are other events, like pop Item NM's, ZNM's, even the new Pixie Weapon NM's, which can require many hours of time and effort at a single sitting. For many events, or missions, you will also have to shout for members, to find people to do them with. At the end of the day, it is common for them to take 4+ hours once you do everyone's pop, and make everyone happy.

Then there are things like the Kings, both mainland and Aht Urghan edition. They require you to be in a certain area, for a large period of time, commonly 3+ hours.

The thing is, with most people who get involved in end game, they want to experience several events. Some people deny many events, and some people pick and choose their events. Many people join HNMLS. In a HNMLS they commonly do many if not all of the events offered in the game. 95% of HNMLS operate of DKP like systems as well. If you want to get anywhere, you have to put forth the effort, and the time needed. You have to usually do several events a day, and you have to be consistent in your attendance.

These things combined, are what give people who would normally be responsible individuals a "need" rather than a "desire" to accomplish certain tasks, and do certain things. It forces them into feeling like they will disappoint their linkshell, or they will fall behind on their DKP and might not eventually get the items they want. As I said, many linkshells disband or split up, so in the back of everyone's mind (since your progress is not being saved into the game) they are trying to get things as quickly and SAFELY as possible, as they do not want to simply waste large amounts of time, and there is no guarantee that they won't.

This is why people began feeling obligated to play a lot longer than they would normally want to. People who would be happy simple accomplishing a goal, but to accomplish even one goal takes it's toll on them, and their schedule.

The largest majority of people, if not almost everyone in end game, are sick of these "time sinks" and restraints. They are tired of these kinds of systems, whether they actually do them or not.

People want systems where their progress is recorded, where they can put the game down and feel like it's okay, where they can do something in a 1-2 hour sitting and actually accomplish a decent goal, and feel good about themselves and feel good about becoming better in the game they enjoy.

For the largest majority of people, especially after being educated by FFXI, they would know when to put the game down, and feel adequate accomplishing a goal in end game.

Yes, there will still be people who even then would play much more than they should, but the largest majority would be happy and content, and know when to turn the game off. They would no longer feel obligated for sitting at their PC for long periods of time, and would have the sense of freedom they need to put the game down.



All of this being said, I'm in a mode right now where I'm so incredibly frustrated and amazed that perhaps it didn't all come out correctly, but as of now that's the best I can do. If people cannot understand why it would be better to create a game that better allows the majority of people to be able to put it down while still progressing in a decent manner, then I do not know what to say past this point. This is a problem that even Square Enix has seen for a long time, and corrected some things in FFXI because of it. This is also why they are making FFXIV into a more "Casual" player friendly game.

If people still do not understand these points, and I'm sure people will still argue it, I'm simply not going to waste my breath on it any further, in complete frustration and sadness at how blind some people can be to the situations at hand.

I would like to thank Kachi, and others with common sense for understanding many of these fundamentals that some people simply cannot grasp.
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#88 Aug 13 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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305 posts
Quote:
This means that you are inexperienced in raiding.
"The first chance for Fafnir to spawn is exactly 21 hours after his previous time of death."
So you only need 1 voluntary to write ToD and then be there in 21 hour. Simple.


Or that I have not done it in many years and truely have more important things to think about / commit to memory now. What i remember is that someone would chart the time of death when possible, though at time the JP community would try and drag out certain fights to be unobtainable by the NA playerbsae - any the next day we would sit there at around that time frame.

I do not recall it ever being at exactly the 21 hour time difference. Infact i remember very clearly it being at time almost the full 3 hour window.

So yeah, if i am wrong well that is the breaks. But if it is true it does not explain why everyone will sit there when they know to the minute when something will spawn.



EndlessJourney:

Well said, good post.
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#89 Aug 13 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Either way it's very poor design to limit the content in that way. Claiming should not be a primary game element. My LS never did kings because it was ridiculous.

Eventually SE put in rage timers so that you couldn't hold certain mobs indefinitely before they straight up eat you alive. But that still doesn't change the fact that doing kings would require you to be logged in and present for the windows.

It's also not a good sign when players HAVE to create their own rules for drop distribution, and take attendance, just to keep any semblance of order in the endgame.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#90 Aug 13 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
It is getting to a point, where things that have been accepted, things that have been agreed upon in FFXI for a long time, are being argued by these people. Things that people have spent years discussing to come to agreements on, and things that the common majority eventually saw flawed in the game of FFXI, for valid reasons.

Most people can understand or develop "common sense" like "spending 12 hours on raid is wrong" - but they don't understand or don't care about reasons why it happens - they prefer blame someone else.
The whole end-game addiction is player driven - dkp is a players invention and low discipline and thus long raid-times a players irresponsibility. Some things can be done to improve things, but they will **** some population (30 minutes raids is a joke).

I personally didn't saw a good end-game that does not apply described end-game problems - so it's a problem of end-game as whole, not just FFXI.

KacesofCaitsith wrote:
I do not recall it ever being at exactly the 21 hour time difference. Infact i remember very clearly it being at time almost the full 3 hour window.
So yeah, if i am wrong well that is the breaks. But if it is true it does not explain why everyone will sit there when they know to the minute when something will spawn.

The principle often the same. Boss have _several_ spawn windows, like 5 of them at certain points of time after ToD and it random spawn in one of them.
Usually the distance between spawn times not that much so you can leave are and return later - so people just sit and wait for the whole window.
#91 Aug 13 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
It's also not a good sign when players HAVE to create their own rules for drop distribution, and take attendance, just to keep any semblance of order in the endgame.


Yeah, I've always said this exact same thing. This is one of the elements that made FFXI feel like a job. I've been a officer of and a leader of several very large HNMLS that did all the end game events. I can tell you from my personal experience, that a fair leader goes through absolute **** making rules and points systems, taking attendance constantly, and the fact that no matter how good you try to make the system people will always argue it. They argue what's fair, they argue against what's already in place, they argue about who has what points and why they didn't get something, it's a hassle, and it's worse than politics.

If these systems were already built into the game, not only would you rest easy knowing your progress and hard work was being saved (so that if your group disbands you don't lose all your hard work and time spent) but you would relieve an enormous stress load off of leaders. You would also eliminate a ton of drama and even manipulation from leaders who are unfair. It's amazing how many problems you can solve by having in game point systems already setup by the developers.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 10:45pm by EndlessJourney
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#92 Aug 13 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
It's also not a good sign when players HAVE to create their own rules for drop distribution, and take attendance, just to keep any semblance of order in the endgame.

There are a rule implied by SE - random loot - which even applied in some smaller lses. All other are internal players negotiations.

And which exactly dkp system you want to see? there are tens of modifications out there
#93 Aug 13 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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424 posts
Again I am breaking my rule of not saying anything further here. I have said what I have to say.

But I read Snout's post, and I feel like it was so much more coherent and informative than the majority of the thread here that I just wanted to applaud it.

Also Snout said this:
Quote:

Shazaamemt linked the Second Skin video, and I think that anyone who is interested in gaming give it a watch. It is the most comprehensive and open-minded take on the subject that I've seen thus far. In it you see the potential positives and negatives of gaming illustrated by real people. A lot of the focus on the video is on the 'addicted' people, but the film does a good job of showing that these people do not make up the entirety of the population. I can't recommend it enough.


Please watch the movie. The last response I got from Katchi was essentially, 'No I don't want to, and I don't have to'.

You might not HAVE to watch it, but it is really just about the easiest way to get some perspective on the issue available.

Unfortunately I can no longer find it available for free at Hulu.


EDIT:

And to EndlessJourney and his consipiracy theory that he is being 'stealh rated'

Quote:

The sad thing is, a lot of them just stay quiet, and make scholar status, and do stealth rating. They don't even chime in for their opinions a lot, and if they do it is quickly shot down by those with a valid argument.


Well, you are at 'Good status', and I seem to be constantly at default. It doesn't bother me. I made the points I wanted to, and linked something I thought to be more relevant to the discussion than the majority of the posts here. I don't see my rating as another 'leveling system'. I just enjoy occasionally joining the debates and perhaps making the occasional Bacon comment.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 1:53am by Shazaamemt
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#94 Aug 13 2009 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Phess wrote:
Most people can understand or develop "common sense" like "spending 12 hours on raid is wrong" - but they don't understand or don't care about reasons why it happens - they prefer blame someone else.


Who is to blame when a monster takes 18 hours to kill, and is not killable any other way. Until one day, the developers THEMSELVES apologize for it, and nerf it into taking less time. You're telling me even when the developers admit to it being their fault, they still aren't to blame...?

Phess wrote:
The whole end-game addiction is player driven - dkp is a players invention and low discipline and thus long raid-times a players irresponsibility.


How does that have ANYTHING to do with "Raid" times? Did you ever actually play FFXI? I mean, in depth, in end game? Do you not understand how it works here? When you start a event, it lasts for those long times. When you try to plan a event, or do many events, it takes that long. It is out of a players control.

And you're right, DKP is a players invention, for a lack of a already in place in game points system. People created them to try to bring fairness to loot distribution. How is this low discipline...?

Quote:
Some things can be done to improve things, but they will **** some population (30 minutes raids is a joke)


At this point? I think you would maybe **** off 1% of the population at BEST. At least 99% of people from FFXI are sick of the incredibly long raid times and the incredibly long time restraints end game has. I don't know how a 30 minute raid is a joke though. One of the most fun raids in FFXI is Nyzul Isle, one of the few newer raids that takes less time, has some great rewards, is a lot of fun, and people love doing it.

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 10:55pm by EndlessJourney
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#95 Aug 13 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are a rule implied by SE - random loot - which even applied in some smaller lses. All other are internal players negotiations.


Yeah, that's worked wonders, too. The problem is that there's so much -need- for player negotiations and systems. Especially when it's so easy to avoid all that mess.

I'm not watching the video because I'm 95% sure I've already seen it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#96 Aug 13 2009 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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743 posts
Quote:
All of this being said, I'm in a mode right now where I'm so incredibly frustrated and amazed that perhaps it didn't all come out correctly, but as of now that's the best I can do. If people cannot understand why it would be better to create a game that better allows the majority of people to be able to put it down while still progressing in a decent manner, then I do not know what to say past this point. This is a problem that even Square Enix has seen for a long time, and corrected some things in FFXI because of it. This is also why they are making FFXIV into a more "Casual" player friendly game.


I think you are getting your point across just fine. And I think many agree with you that it would be more enjoyable if the game were designed in such a way that you could make progress, and have it be noticeable, in smaller amounts of time.

But I mean, the ultimate responsibility for what *you* are doing will stay lie with *you*, even in a "harsh" system as FFXI. If someone *knows* that he/she is suffering, and still stay online for hours on end in Dynamis, HNM hunting or whatever be the case, just to get a chance at an item they want, then that individual has let it slip too far. If you're not enjoying it (whether it's the game designer's fault for making crappy content, or some other reason), then you should say stop and put the game down, or at least the activity which causes you frustration.

It is still only a game, and noone needs FFXI in their lives. You can keep in touch with the people you encounter via other means.

Now, again, I'd be the first one to criticize SE and FFXI for not providing fun and balanced content for most players, especially as the levels go up. But it is up to the player to A) bring that criticism to Square Enix and B) quit the game if you don't enjoy it. Vote with your pocketbooks. Noone *needs* to get the items from the endgame. It's still a game.

As far as "stealth ratings" go, I'm happy to announce that my post was rated down as well (despite it being fairly civilized in my mind). :p

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 7:59am by LeinadiOdin
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#97 Aug 13 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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LeinadiOdin wrote:


I think you are getting your point across just fine. And I think many agree with you that it would be more enjoyable if the game were designed in such a way that you could make progress, and have it be noticeable, in smaller amounts of time.


Thank you very much. I know most logical and intelligent people who actually have experienced these things, and take the time to think it through for the betterment of the entire player base, understands these things. It's just the people who don't, who run their mouths off, who defy common sense and logic and don't even listen to what they are saying frustrate me so much. I think some of them just like arguing.

Quote:
But I mean, the ultimate responsibility for what *you* are doing will stay lie with *you*, even in a "harsh" system as FFXI. If someone *knows* that he/she is suffering, and still stay online for hours on end in Dynamis, HNM hunting or whatever be the case, just to get a chance at an item they want, then that individual has let it slip too far. If you're not enjoying it (whether it's the game designer's fault for making crappy content, or some other reason), then you should say stop and put the game down, or at least the activity which causes you frustration.

It is still only a game, and noone needs FFXI in their lives. You can keep in touch with the people you encounter via other means.


Sadly, I agree with this. This is true, in the very end it is up to you as the player. That doesn't mean the developers aren't at fault, but I agree, as a person you need to tell yourself when is enough, even if you have to quit something you love. I hardly play FFXI anymore, and only sign on for one or two events, which because of my schedule in the real world lately, I'm probably going to have to give up soon.

Anytime I do sign on game, I have "responsibilities" and events people want me at. I miss being able to just sign on and have fun, level a bit, quest a bit, something like that. It truly does feel like a job anymore. But as I said, I honestly only sign on for a event or two, in which I will probably soon retire completely from.

I have high hopes, like I know you and most others do that FFXIV will be drastically different in this sense.


Quote:
As far as "stealth ratings" go, I'm happy to announce that my post was rated down as well (despite it being fairly civilized in my mind). :p


People are quicker to rate down than they are to rate up sadly. People don't rate up very often and the ones who rate down usually do so for illogical reasons and as I say, do more lurking than they do posting. I see people all the time make completely valid arguments and extremely good statements that people widely agree on, get rated down from good and excellent to decent.

I don't want to bring up Karma though. And yes, at least some people have enough common sense to keep the complete stupidity defaulted and the logical statements at least "decent".
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#98 Aug 13 2009 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Anytime I do sign on game, I have "responsibilities" and events people want me at. I miss being able to just sign on and have fun, level a bit, quest a bit, something like that. It truly does feel like a job anymore. But as I said, I honestly only sign on for a event or two, in which I will probably soon retire completely from.


Just tell them you want to have fun.

I completely understand feeling like you have 'responsibilities' in the online world. I have been both a main healer and a main tank in both FFXI and WoW. I have been a linkshell 'captain' and an 'Assistant Guild Leader' in wow. I know how it feels to log in to 'responsibilities'. The truth is you don't have 'responsibilities' in the game. It is a game. Worst case.. just don't log in again.

I know, you don't want to let down your friends, but real friends would understand when you don't want to play the same thing. If not, then ***** them, quit the linkshell, and go outside. Next time you log in they will either be ****** or apologizing. You should add one of those to your ignore list.


Edited, Aug 14th 2009 2:21am by Shazaamemt
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Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
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#99 Aug 13 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Sadly, I agree with this. This is true, in the very end it is up to you as the player. That doesn't mean the developers aren't at fault


That's just laying blame elsewhere. If at the end it is 'up to you as the player', then ultimately it is 'up to you as the player'.

People have spend their entire lives perfecting Pac-man... and I can beat a level in about 2 minutes (as can any 5 year old).

I think we all don't like sitting around for hours LFP or having the 25 hour spawns on NMs, and we all want to have a faster style of progression than FFXI for those reasons. That is not an issue of 'video game addiction' though. That is just an improvement of gameplay. Just because it takes you less time to accomplish things does NOT mean that you will play less.

You could have played less in FFXI, but you didn't. That's not a criticism, it is a statement. You never had to wake up at 3 am to kill Fafnir, you wanted to. There is no feature in the game that shocks you awake when a NM spawns.

So let's say Pandemodium Warden only took 20 minutes to kill. Those players who would stay up for 18 hours straight would just kill him and then continue on to the next challenge, then the next. Then they would switch jobs and keep playing.

There will always be another mountain to climb in an MMO, that is a basic tenet of the genre. The problem is not the length of time the mountain takes to climb, but deciding when to give it a break. Because once you climb one, you will just see a higher peak beyond it.

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Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#100 Aug 13 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So let's say Pandemodium Warden only took 20 minutes to kill. Those players who would stay up for 18 hours straight would just kill him and then continue on to the next challenge, then the next. Then they would switch jobs and keep playing.


Uh, except they wouldn't. Interesting theory aside from it being completely wrong.

The LS has already stated explicitly that the only reason they kept fighting was because they had no idea how long it would take, they thought they didn't have much more to go, and had already invested so much time into the fight (not just the many hours of the fight itself, but WEEKS of gathering pop items).

And while this is obviously an extreme case, you find similar incidents of this behavior on a smaller scale all throughout the game.

I mean, did you really even play FFXI? Can you honestly tell me that you've never heard people saying that they want/need to go, only to have their friends beg them to stay, and common sense tell them that it would be a huge waste to leave right now? At the point that someone wants to log off, but is just waiting to finish the **** event so that it's not a waste, addiction is not the problem. If they want to log off but then do one more event, then maybe they have an addiction.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#101 Aug 14 2009 at 12:05 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

I mean, did you really even play FFXI?


I can honestly say I played FFXI for a very long time.

Quote:
you've never heard people saying that they want/need to go, only to have their friends beg them to stay, and common sense tell them that it would be a huge waste to leave right now?


Well, I can honestly heard people say that.

I cannot say it was 'COMMON SENSE' that they had to stay playing the game over their real life responsibilities.

I think you might just have a drastically different concept of 'common sense'.

Quote:
Interesting theory aside from it being completely wrong.



____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
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