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Social Responsibility: An open letter to Square EnixFollow

#102 Aug 14 2009 at 12:10 AM Rating: Default
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54 posts
EndlessJourney wrote:
Who is to blame when a monster takes 18 hours to kill, and is not killable any other way. Until one day, the developers THEMSELVES apologize for it, and nerf it into taking less time. You're telling me even when the developers admit to it being their fault, they still aren't to blame...?

Are you trying to derail me? It's quite a bad behaviour from you.
I talked about overall end-game addiction like dkp and long raids due to irresponsibility of players - but you came back with PW (to which I already agreed that it's too much) - which is one case that was proven wrong.
But it seems you have not much to talk besides PW case as it's your main argument to this conversation.

Quote:
How does that have ANYTHING to do with "Raid" times? Did you ever actually play FFXI? I mean, in depth, in end game? Do you not understand how it works here? When you start a event, it lasts for those long times. When you try to plan a event, or do many events, it takes that long. It is out of a players control.

I played in raid-guilds for quite a long time and not only in FFXI. I even played "addicted" style (16-20 hours per day) - so I certainly know how to plan events, when to stop and where responsibility is hidden.
What exactly is "out of player control"? You are not obliged to go to all those ridiculously long encounters - and if you go there - it's you responsibility to plan your time accordingly.

Go to BCNM once a week - it's 30-60 minutes event that does not require much of effort. It's still will be an event with organization - but on the whole other level of time-sink.

The main problem that you _want_ to go to long time events - because you want a reward from there. But then you start whine that it takes too much time - this is what i call not understanding inner reasoning and common stupidity of players.
You want everyone to be equal by your gameplay style - and this is just plain wrong attitude.

Quote:
And you're right, DKP is a players invention, for a lack of a already in place in game points system. People created them to try to bring fairness to loot distribution. How is this low discipline...?

You have seriously impaired reading skill.
Point system is a thing that players agree between themselves, not a thing that normal game should force players. It can have some means to help maintain points, but it shouldn't be mandatory. And there are no such thing as general "fair" - sense of fairness greatly differs from people to people - this is why a large number of dkp systems exists and also why random loot sometimes used (which is also considered fair by some people).
As for discipline - it was related to long gathering time, and usually even very advanced help from developers (like summons from anywhere to gathering camp) does not really help.

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At this point? I think you would maybe **** off 1% of the population at BEST. At least 99% of people from FFXI are sick of the incredibly long raid times and the incredibly long time restraints end game has. I don't know how a 30 minute raid is a joke though. One of the most fun raids in FFXI is Nyzul Isle, one of the few newer raids that takes less time, has some great rewards, is a lot of fun, and people love doing it.

You are talk too big about general population. "Allakhazam posters" is not a general population and you have no idea what 99% players are think about. Stop inflate your own opinion with numbers from nowhere.

Yes, many newer instances are short - as a result they often just chained to improve length - 6 bcnm at once, 20 level of nyzul etc. Why 30 minutes is ridiculous from some points of view? Because it is inefficient waste of time - it takes 30-60 minutes to gather people yet only to have 30 minutes of event. It's disappointing when time to gather (which is bother) is more than time in event (which is fun for some people).

Kachi wrote:
Yeah, that's worked wonders, too. The problem is that there's so much -need- for player negotiations and systems. Especially when it's so easy to avoid all that mess.

You have your LS chat to negotiate a system. It's the multiplayer game and it is intended that you communicate with others and negotiate with them. And honestly, inter-player negotiation is not a place where developers should interfere.

It would be nice to have in-game customizable dkp generator, but there are a lot of web-based dkp systems, some even with parsers, so i think FFXI/FFXIV have other, more important things to care about.
#103 Aug 14 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
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572 posts
EndlessJourney wrote:
This site is to much for me to handle, I'm not sure if I can even continue posting here. Some people like Kachi seem to understand, there are plenty of others as well. But then we have a group of people, who like to think they know, and argue a opinion that is heavily against what the common majority of people in the FFXI community has agreed upon, for many years, for completely logical reasons. I see a lot of people chiming in, who have not done serious and involved end game in FFXI, or who come from other MMORPG's and try to relate how things might play out in FFXI end game.

This is probably the last post I'm going to make here, I'm not sure. For a long time Alla has had an extremely bad reputation through the online gaming community, especially on FFXI, and still does a lot of the time. This is because people were uneducated and would come here seeking acceptance and open opinions. Attitudes and mentality's like "This is okay" or "You can do this just fine" when it wasn't always the case. This site turned a deaf ear to many legitimate arguments for a long time. It started getting better, at least in the FFXI community after awhile. People started actually going against the grain, and thinking more about what they were saying.

I have lurked on this site since the FFXI boards on Alla were created, and started posting when the site actually started reforming itself for the better. When people started accepting things about a imperfect game, and opening their eyes to it's faults. However, the FFXIV forum is seeing a whole new influx of people. We have this whole new influx of people who want to argue their opinions, that are illogical and against the common majority. People who came out of the woodworks with the FFXIV section opened up, and will say almost anything.

The sad thing is, a lot of them just stay quiet, and make scholar status, and do stealth rating. They don't even chime in for their opinions a lot, and if they do it is quickly shot down by those with a valid argument.

It is getting to a point, where things that have been accepted, things that have been agreed upon in FFXI for a long time, are being argued by these people. Things that people have spent years discussing to come to agreements on, and things that the common majority eventually saw flawed in the game of FFXI, for valid reasons.

I'm tired of seeing this nonsense gotten away with, it's saddening as a community, to see this type of behavior even remotely accepted. As I said, most people still understand it, but there's this large influx of people going against the common wealth and opinion of what has been largely accepted for a long time. It is frustrating, and as I said, nonsense.




I will make one last valid argument to this thread, and try to sum some things up for everyone, so listen carefully.

In any MMORPG you can get addicted, this is absolutely true. In any video game, you can become addicted. In any enjoying part of life, you can become addicted. Addiction is a state of mind where a individual allows their self to do something more than they should, for whatever reasons. They neglect responsibilities, and indulge in pleasure.

Addictions come in at different levels, for different reasons. As I said, anyone can become addicted to almost anything pleasurable. You can get addicted to a sport, or to a hobby, or to any type of activity you find enjoyable, including video games. However, there are other addictions that come more severe. It is because if different reasons that other addictions are more easily cought and why people are unable to turn away from them as easily as others.

Things like Alcohol addiction, drug addiction, *** addiction. These things, and things like this, provide instant gratification and larger amounts of euphoria for the time invested in them. People then feel a need, instead of a desire, to indulge in such addictions.

As anyone with common sense (which is severely lacking on this site) would know, it's a lot easier to become addicted to something like cocain if you start doing it, than it is to become addicted to a healthy sport like basketball. I've played sports in my life, where I invested a ton of time into them, and had many hobbies I invested much time into as well. There were times when that's all I wanted to do, but it was easy to draw the line and accept when it was time to stop.

There was less of a "need" for it, it was there to be enjoyed. You didn't have to continue doing it, to feel good. You could come back and do it later. It didn't have certain addictive properties that other things like drugs and alcohol etch into your brain and it's very chemicals.

How does this tie into FFXI and FFXIV?

In FFXI, it is true, many people became addicted for the wrong reasons. They wanted that "one more level" they wanted that "one more stack" they wanted that "one more quest" or "one more mission". There were, and are many people like this. However, the majority of people knew when enough was enough. They knew when it was time to tell your EXP PT you had to go to bed, for work in the morning. Most people knew when it was time to put the game down, and adhere to their responsibilities.

In the end, you got to where you were going slower, you got your levels slower, you might even miss out on a mission or two, maybe a static or two. But you could pick up where you left off, and continue another day, knowing you could accomplish what you were trying to do.

Then came end game, and the end game systems of FFXI.

My first example will be Dynamis. Many of you know what Dynamis is, many of you don't. Many of you had points systems that worked for you, but for many they weren't always so fortunate to find one, or to be accepted into one they wanted, for whatever reason and these people had to do the best with what they were given.

In Dynamis, for most linkshells, it takes people at least 30 minutes or so to gather together. Most dynamis shells usually enter 15-30 minutes after the gather together time. This time comes twice a week, and a Dynamis Raid lasts for 3-4 hours, depending on the zone you are doing. Now, the bad thing is, most people have to schedule their real life around such a event. Another thing is they have to adhere to people in more than one time zone most commonly. So it's going to always be a bit early for people in one area, or a bit late for people in another area.

Most commonly, good people will arrive early. Sadly, a lot of the time many others will arrive late. For most people it common to wait about 1 hour for Dynamis to begin. Now, putting that aside, once you are in you will be there for 3-4 hours. That's a total of 4-5 hours that are required. The linkshell leaders expect people to stay, unless they have something come up, or something they absolutely have to get to. If for some reason people can never make the full run, or simply leave earlier than expected, most linkshells will either kick you or ask you to leave, or at the very least, you will not obtain AF2, as there are people working much harder than you for it.

Another thing to take note, is linkshells don't last forever. For a fortunate few, they do, and those folks are lucky. But linkshells will commonly disband, for the craziest of issues some times. The saddest part is, for these events, there is no in game point system saving your progress. So it becomes a race, to see who can get what they want the quickest. It creates this feeling of obligation within people, that they must do their very best, make as many if not all runs as possible, and stay for the entire time. This same system follows many end game events as well.

Dynamis is just one instance, there are many. There is Sky, which can require many hours at a time of farming, even though in my opinion this event can be made more casual. When you do God-Pops, you know you will usually be on for at least 2-3 hours though. But more commonly, for most people, it ends up being more. Limbus, is a more kind scenario, and requires less time, however the same story can happen in Limbus as does with Dynamis.

Then there are other events, like pop Item NM's, ZNM's, even the new Pixie Weapon NM's, which can require many hours of time and effort at a single sitting. For many events, or missions, you will also have to shout for members, to find people to do them with. At the end of the day, it is common for them to take 4+ hours once you do everyone's pop, and make everyone happy.

Then there are things like the Kings, both mainland and Aht Urghan edition. They require you to be in a certain area, for a large period of time, commonly 3+ hours.

The thing is, with most people who get involved in end game, they want to experience several events. Some people deny many events, and some people pick and choose their events. Many people join HNMLS. In a HNMLS they commonly do many if not all of the events offered in the game. 95% of HNMLS operate of DKP like systems as well. If you want to get anywhere, you have to put forth the effort, and the time needed. You have to usually do several events a day, and you have to be consistent in your attendance.

These things combined, are what give people who would normally be responsible individuals a "need" rather than a "desire" to accomplish certain tasks, and do certain things. It forces them into feeling like they will disappoint their linkshell, or they will fall behind on their DKP and might not eventually get the items they want. As I said, many linkshells disband or split up, so in the back of everyone's mind (since your progress is not being saved into the game) they are trying to get things as quickly and SAFELY as possible, as they do not want to simply waste large amounts of time, and there is no guarantee that they won't.

This is why people began feeling obligated to play a lot longer than they would normally want to. People who would be happy simple accomplishing a goal, but to accomplish even one goal takes it's toll on them, and their schedule.

The largest majority of people, if not almost everyone in end game, are sick of these "time sinks" and restraints. They are tired of these kinds of systems, whether they actually do them or not.

People want systems where their progress is recorded, where they can put the game down and feel like it's okay, where they can do something in a 1-2 hour sitting and actually accomplish a decent goal, and feel good about themselves and feel good about becoming better in the game they enjoy.

For the largest majority of people, especially after being educated by FFXI, they would know when to put the game down, and feel adequate accomplishing a goal in end game.

Yes, there will still be people who even then would play much more than they should, but the largest majority would be happy and content, and know when to turn the game off. They would no longer feel obligated for sitting at their PC for long periods of time, and would have the sense of freedom they need to put the game down.



All of this being said, I'm in a mode right now where I'm so incredibly frustrated and amazed that perhaps it didn't all come out correctly, but as of now that's the best I can do. If people cannot understand why it would be better to create a game that better allows the majority of people to be able to put it down while still progressing in a decent manner, then I do not know what to say past this point. This is a problem that even Square Enix has seen for a long time, and corrected some things in FFXI because of it. This is also why they are making FFXIV into a more "Casual" player friendly game.

If people still do not understand these points, and I'm sure people will still argue it, I'm simply not going to waste my breath on it any further, in complete frustration and sadness at how blind some people can be to the situations at hand.

I would like to thank Kachi, and others with common sense for understanding many of these fundamentals that some people simply cannot grasp.


I think you are trying very hard to make SE make a game in a way that you cannot get addicted to or put in some kind of mechanism that will coc*block you from playing it more than x time/day.

As I see it personally, people that are addicted to MMO`s are in the minority, a few %. What you advocate for is that the rest of the gaming community (the 90%+) will somehow have to pay a penalty because some people can't control themselves when they are playing? I think you will never see this unfortunately. SE cares more about the 90%+ people that don't have a problem with addiction then to cater to those few percent that has no control over themselves when they are playing an MMO. (Same argument we had about casual Vs. hardcore ? ^^)

There have been made many good analogies about comparing what kind of responsibility a human have when it comes down to deciding what you want to do with your life. Choosing what’s wrong and what’s not. Ultimately governments and companies cannot babysit you and watch over you like you are a small kid in kindergarten and teach you what’s right and what is wrong when you have reach adulthood.

I have to totally disagree with you post about SE should take responsibility about what you do in your private life. There is a reason why someone calls you an adult and that is that you have matured both physically and mentally that you can handle your own decision. Of course, there is always a small % that can't control there own life and that they cannot make the difference between what is right and what is wrong but I don't think that is the responsibility of SE to take care of.

Other posters here suggest also if now you have a very dangerous addiction to MMO’s why do you play those kinds of games? I mean logically if I would have addiction to something I would stay far away from that thing and thus minimize the chance of getting addicted. FFXIV is not out yet so you can already prepare from today to take every necessary step to not buy it/play it. You might tell you family or friends today that they should take every step necessary to stop you from playing it when it comes out since you are dangerously addicted to MMO’s. Again there are many ways you can protect yourself if you just make plans for it.
#104 Aug 14 2009 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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9,997 posts
Quote:
I cannot say it was 'COMMON SENSE' that they had to stay playing the game over their real life responsibilities.

I think you might just have a drastically different concept of 'common sense'.


Uh huh. So when you have, let's say, a linkshell event with 18 people, and they're there partly to help -you- accomplish something, and furthermore they actually need you to be there, and you've already sunk three hours into getting this far, the sensible thing to do rather than just get it over with is to call it a night, wasting everyone's time in the process.

You're sure you've played Final Fantasy ELEVEN?
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#105 Aug 14 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Good
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1,822 posts
Phess wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
How does that have ANYTHING to do with "Raid" times? Did you ever actually play FFXI? I mean, in depth, in end game? Do you not understand how it works here? When you start a event, it lasts for those long times. When you try to plan a event, or do many events, it takes that long. It is out of a players control.

I played in raid-guilds for quite a long time and not only in FFXI. I even played "addicted" style (16-20 hours per day) - so I certainly know how to plan events, when to stop and where responsibility is hidden.
What exactly is "out of player control"? You are not obliged to go to all those ridiculously long encounters - and if you go there - it's you responsibility to plan your time accordingly.


I'm only going to address about half of the complete and absolute stupidity and garbage that this Phess person some how jumbled up in their brain.

One of my biggest gripes on the FFXIV forum is people coming here. People who have played other MMORPG's, people who are mainly from WoW, and people who at best might have gotten to 75 in FFXI and done a sky god or two. Then they come in here, and base opinions off of how they think MMORPG's commonly work, not understanding the complete and inner workings of FFXI.

If you do not know something as much as those around you, stop trying to argue the points they present more adequately than you do. There's a reason all of your posts are Default, it's because you're an idiot and what you're saying is stupid.

You bring up that you lead "Raid-Guilds" in FFXI, I swear to GOD If you were anywhere but Alla you'd be laughed out of the forum and probably banned for stupidity. They are called HNMLS in FFXI, if you had spent any time in them you would know this, and you would know how drastically they differ from FFXI.

But you obviously don't.

Quote:
Go to BCNM once a week - it's 30-60 minutes event that does not require much of effort. It's still will be an event with organization - but on the whole other level of time-sink.


Once again proving you know jack about FFXI end game. Do you know there's a lot of very skilled, knowledgeable veterans in FFXI, who want to enjoy end game events, and obtain end game armor, but they cannot. They are responsible, and have real life obligations, and these events take to long for the common man.

You still don't get it though, do you moron? In FFXI it's not like in WoW, where you can do some raids sections at a time, and if you so desire you can finish another section at a later time. If you start a Dynamis, you have to finish it all at once, or you lose money and chances at the loot, which no one will do. People don't just "leave" dynamis as an entire group because it's been too long.

Another reason Nyzul Isle is great is that it's one of the only things that comes close to this kind of system. And do you really THINK things should take 1 hour to gather the people for? Standing around shouting for an hour? Ohh wait, that's the players fault to, not the developers. They choose to play like that.

Gotcha.

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The main problem that you _want_ to go to long time events


Get it through your thick and incredibly stupid skull. PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS.

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- because you want a reward from there. But then you start whine that it takes too much time - this is what i call not understanding inner reasoning and common stupidity of players.


Okay, so it is common stupidity of players, and not understanding inner reasoning because they want rewards for their effort, but they do not want to spend incredibly long amounts of time that have detrimental effects on one's real life and schedule?

You sir, are a gigantic @#%^ing idiot.

Quote:
You want everyone to be equal by your gameplay style - and this is just plain wrong attitude.


No one will ever be equal, and I never said it had to be my gameplay style. The same argument could be made on the exact opposite side of the spectrum as well. And once again, something no one ever answers because people like Phess are much too stupid:

Do you think it's okay for some folks to play 10 hours a day? Those kids in Japan who do nothing but play FFXI 10 hours a day? The guys in Western Countries, who have all the great loot, and play 10 hours a day, is that a okay and healthy play style for ANYONE? They could be outside, exercising, enjoying life, socializing, MAKING A LIVING, doing other things. But to be ultimate at this game, you must give up things like that. And you some how justify that because some people are not meant to be at the top, it's okay for some to be like this?

Why can you not see your stupidity and lack of human understanding? You disgust me.

Quote:
And you're right, DKP is a players invention, for a lack of a already in place in game points system. People created them to try to bring fairness to loot distribution. How is this low discipline...?


You have seriously impaired reading skill.[/quote]

Actually, no I don't. You just have a disease called "Stupidity of the brain". But continue.

Quote:
Point system is a thing that players agree between themselves, not a thing that normal game should force players.


So a normal game shouldn't force players to be fair to one another? It shouldn't record their progress? It shouldn't have systems in place to not allow manipulation and lost time? They shouldn't be "Forced" into this?

Do you even know why laws exist in the world, and are in place? Since you obviously don't, let me fill you in. Do you know why no one has complete freedom in this world? It's because if it were the case, while many people would do the right thing, many people would abuse it and take advantage of it. That's why there are speed limits, that's why drugs are illegal, that's why laws are put into place, in the real world, and video games alike.

Keep being stupid though.

Quote:
It can have some means to help maintain points, but it shouldn't be mandatory.


You're right, it shouldn't be mandatory. Let's just let people go join a linkshell and work hard for a year for a drop, so that some one else can join that week and lot it over them. DKP systems FTL amirite? Good job thinking outside the box. Sadly, it doesn't work.

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And there are no such thing as general "fair"


Actually, when thought out and calculated very carefully, there is.

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- sense of fairness greatly differs from people to people -


This is called "Greed" and "Manipulation".

Quote:
At this point? I think you would maybe **** off 1% of the population at BEST. At least 99% of people from FFXI are sick of the incredibly long raid times and the incredibly long time restraints end game has. I don't know how a 30 minute raid is a joke though. One of the most fun raids in FFXI is Nyzul Isle, one of the few newer raids that takes less time, has some great rewards, is a lot of fun, and people love doing it.

You are talk too big about general population. "Allakhazam posters" is not a general population and you have no idea what 99% players are think about. Stop inflate your own opinion with numbers from nowhere.[/quote]

You stop defying logic and common sense, and I will stop using it. I started posting on Alla when I was done posting on BlueGartr. Before that I posted for years on KillingIfrit. I frequent all the sites as well. As I said, until just recently, I've been heavily involved in -every- aspect of end game. Sea, Kings, Dynamis, Jailers, HNM's, ZNM's, etc, etc, etc. You name it, I've done it, and been a part of it.

What have you done? "Guild Raids"...?

[quote]Yes, many newer instances are short - as a result they often just chained to improve length - 6 bcnm at once, 20 level of nyzul etc. Why 30 minutes is ridiculous from some points of view? Because it is inefficient waste of time - it takes 30-60 minutes to gather people yet only to have 30 minutes of event. It's disappointing when time to gather (which is bother) is more than time in event (which is fun for some people).[/quote]

People do 6 BCNM's at once so everyone can have a equal chance at making money, since it is equal effort.

People rarely do 20 levels of Nyzul Isle at once, some times they do, rarely, but even then once you get the people it's only 2 hours long. Most people generally do 2-3 Nyzul Isle, some times just one at a time.

And once again, do you THINK it should take an hour to gather people together? I guess if there was a BETTER SYSTEM for it, you could gather them in 10 minutes, then spend 30 minutes to an hour doing the event, and actually not be bored out of your mind, and frustrated.

But I guess I'm just placing the blame elsewhere. **** players, who do they think they are?

Kachi wrote:
Yeah, that's worked wonders, too. The problem is that there's so much -need- for player negotiations and systems. Especially when it's so easy to avoid all that mess.


[quote]You have your LS chat to negotiate a system. It's the multiplayer game and it is intended that you communicate with others and negotiate with them. And honestly, inter-player negotiation is not a place where developers should interfere.

It would be nice to have in-game customizable dkp generator, but there are a lot of web-based dkp systems, some even with parsers, so i think FFXI/FFXIV have other, more important things to care about.
[/quote]

Stop trying Kachi, he doesn't understand what "Convenience" and "Practicality" mean. It's better to have people argue over a system and whats fair, and create needless drama, than have one already in place.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 1:52am by EndlessJourney
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#106 Aug 14 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Default
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424 posts
Quote:

Uh huh. So when you have, let's say, a linkshell event with 18 people, and they're there partly to help -you- accomplish something, and furthermore they actually need you to be there, and you've already sunk three hours into getting this far, the sensible thing to do rather than just get it over with is to call it a night, wasting everyone's time in the process.


If you have to be at work or school the next morning, then YES it is the sensible thing to do. I think you have a drastically different idea of what 'sensible' means, much like your idea of 'common sense'.

Quote:

You're sure you've played Final Fantasy ELEVEN?


Yes... are you sure you should have played it at all? Perhaps you didn't read the warning when you log in...

(and bam, back to the original message on this thread)

It seems like your only argument against me is that I 'must not have played FFXI'. How about defending your position instead of attacking my 'qualifications'. Imaginary as they may be.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 5:05am by Shazaamemt
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#107 Aug 14 2009 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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1,822 posts
Maldavian wrote:
As I see it personally, people that are addicted to MMO`s are in the minority, a few %.


Ohh how incredibly wrong you are.

Quote:
What you advocate for is that the rest of the gaming community (the 90%+) will somehow have to pay a penalty because some people can't control themselves when they are playing?


Are you ******* stupid or what? I'm advocating that the 90% of those players DO HAVE ACCESS to the things the 10% of addicted people who cannot control themselves only have access to as of now. I'M FIGHTING FOR THAT 90%. Holy Christ, reread my posts. God gave you a brain for a reason, USE IT.

Quote:
I think you will never see this unfortunately. SE cares more about the 90%+ people that don't have a problem with addiction then to cater to those few percent that has no control over themselves when they are playing an MMO. (Same argument we had about casual Vs. hardcore ? ^^)


Sadly, this is not true, and I humbly and honestly wish it were.

Is this freaking Backwards Land? Are you the King of Backwards Land?

Quote:
There have been made many good analogies about comparing what kind of responsibility a human have when it comes down to deciding what you want to do with your life. Choosing what’s wrong and what’s not. Ultimately governments and companies cannot babysit you and watch over you like you are a small kid in kindergarten and teach you what’s right and what is wrong when you have reach adulthood.


Once again, they are called LAWS, RULES, and REGULATIONS. They exist EVERYWHERE in life, and are SETUP by the companies and government's for those VERY EXACT REASONS.

My...God... How can you not know this?

Quote:
I have to totally disagree with you post about SE should take responsibility about what you do in your private life.


Square Enix is taking time out of your private life by developing a video game for consumers to buy. This argument is like saying "We're going to make Cocain Legal, and spike it up to an almost deadly dose. You can buy it at your local WAL-MART. It works fine for some people, but if people use it and die it was their fault".

WHEN YOU ARE ISSUING A PRODUCT THAT TAKES TIME OUT OF SOME ONE'S PRIVATE LIFE, YOU DO INDEED HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO THEM IN A SENSE.

Quote:
There is a reason why someone calls you an adult and that is that you have matured both physically and mentally that you can handle your own decision. Of course, there is always a small % that can't control there own life and that they cannot make the difference between what is right and what is wrong but I don't think that is the responsibility of SE to take care of.


Do you know how large of a majority of people play FFXI "too much"? Or do end game more than they probably think is healthy deep down inside?

Quote:
Other posters here suggest also if now you have a very dangerous addiction to MMO’s why do you play those kinds of games? I mean logically if I would have addiction to something I would stay far away from that thing and thus minimize the chance of getting addicted. FFXIV is not out yet so you can already prepare from today to take every necessary step to not buy it/play it. You might tell you family or friends today that they should take every step necessary to stop you from playing it when it comes out since you are dangerously addicted to MMO’s. Again there are many ways you can protect yourself if you just make plans for it.


That's exactly what Square Enix, as a business trying to make a product readily available to as many people as possible should have the mindset of. "If people can't handle it, then they should not buy it! Long Live the 6+ hour a day play times!"???

You know what's most hilarious? I'm not addicted to MMORPG's, I use to be, at one point, then as I said, I finally drew the line. I'm way more addicted to jogging/music/the internet than I am any video game. As I said earlier, for awhile I've only signed on FFXI for a event or two, and pretty much don't play otherwise. It's because of these very reasons we are talking about.

This is WHY people are advocating against them. They don't WANT a game they won't be able to play and not have a life, and be able to enjoy.

What don't some of you get about this?
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#108Shazaamemt, Posted: Aug 14 2009 at 1:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) EndlessJourney... you get angrier with each post.
#109 Aug 14 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:
EndlessJourney... you get angrier with each post.

Instead of making a plausible argument, you hurl insults.

Your points have been heard and understood. Posters just think they are incorrect. Try debating instead of insults.


You're right, I do insult them. But 95% of my content IS debating them. And you are right, I am insulting them because I am angry. Why am I angry? Because people are defying logic and can't see something so incredibly simple. I'm also not hurling out anymore insults than some other people.

Basically, I think deep down inside most of these people want a game like FFXI, with more casual content, but still a top tier brass of people with the best gear, who look down on the others. People who can only obtain it from spending 10 hours a day on a game.

My, and the most common sense argument is to basically eliminate that. Making it possible for the common person to achieve great goals in realistic amounts of time. We don't want to see a 5% top tier group of people who play the game 10 hours a day and circle jerk each other through a monopoly while everyone else in the game struggles to become like them or quits/becomes addicted trying.

I think deep down that is what is being argued.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 2:20am by EndlessJourney
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#110 Aug 14 2009 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you have to be at work or school the next morning, then YES it is the sensible thing to do. I think you have a drastically different idea of what 'sensible' means, much like your idea of 'common sense'.


What's another hour or two of sleep for most people, compared to wasting 3 hours for 18 people?

FFXI expects you to compromise your time in a way that other MMOs simply do not.

Honestly, I've just been curious to see how long you can keep fooling yourself. I've already accepted that you won't admit when you're wrong, but it's kind of funny to read your responses and observe the mental gymnastics involved in your "rebuttals." Though thus far it's been nothing fancy.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I already know what your reply is going to be, and it's going to affirm my suspicion that you're socially retarded.

But in the interest of sport: Do you honestly think that I'm going to agree with your absurd reasoning, and why/why not?

And do you think there's something clever about quoting me as if you're turning my words against me, even though because you do it completely out of any appropriate context, it just makes you look incapable of forming a sensible argument? Oops, guess I kinda gave that one away.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#111 Aug 14 2009 at 1:27 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Basically, I think deep down inside most of these people want a game like FFXI, with more casual content, but still a top tier brass of people with the best gear, who look down on the others. People who can only obtain it from spending 10 hours a day on a game.


I am not sure it that is what is being argued here, and I agree it sounds like a crappy elitist system. But in the world of MMOs there is always going to be that few who play for 10 hours a day and have the elitist attitude. Regardless of how casual-friendly the game is.

There will always be that top 5% that people will want to be, or become addicted trying to be. It just comes with the territory of Massive Multiplayer.

To use a quote from you:

Quote:

I think deep down that is what is being argued.


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#112 Aug 14 2009 at 1:34 AM Rating: Default
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to Kachi:

Quote:

I mean, I'm pretty sure I already know what your reply is going to be, and it's going to affirm my suspicion that you're socially retarded.

But in the interest of sport: Do you honestly think that I'm going to agree with your absurd reasoning, and why/why not?


No, of course you won't agree with me. You think my reasoning is absurd. I think your reasoning is absurd.

Personally I log off if I have something more important to do (like work or school). You feel guilty about leaving a group online.

Quote:

What's another hour or two of sleep for most people, compared to wasting 3 hours for 18 people?


It is pretty important for most people. If you can afford to not lose those 2 hours of your life, then why are you complaining about the length of the game?

Quote:

And do you think there's something clever about quoting me as if you're turning my words against me, even though because you do it completely out of any appropriate context, it just makes you look incapable of forming a sensible argument? Oops, guess I kinda gave that one away.


I am not turning your words against you, I am just replying to them in the context in which you posted them.

No, I do not think it is 'sensible' and I do not think it is 'common sense' to continue playing when there are more important things to be done.

But of course, I am absurd. So I don't intend you to give anything I say consideration.

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#113 Aug 14 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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Shazaamemt wrote:

I am not sure it that is what is being argued here, and I agree it sounds like a crappy elitist system. But in the world of MMOs there is always going to be that few who play for 10 hours a day and have the elitist attitude. Regardless of how casual-friendly the game is.

There will always be that top 5% that people will want to be, or become addicted trying to be. It just comes with the territory of Massive Multiplayer.


You're right. There will always be elitists, there will always be people who get addicted, there will always be *** holes.

That doesn't mean that they need the "fuel that feeds the fire" and ability that only they possess to obtain a certain kind of gear. If they want more of it, if they want to progress their character farther through things like merits, that's fine and well. But in FFXI 90% of the really good end game gear is only available to them.

So it creates this monopoly, this hierarchy that everyone else sucks up to. It creates this needless elitism that shouldn't even be present. It excludes people from feeling like they can be GREAT and AMAZING also. There's a large difference between having a few people who play way more than others, who have a bunch of something, or who are more maxed out in special abilities and such, or even just have more experience under their belt.

But making it where that almost all the good and exciting end game gear is only available to them, is the problem. And is what I'm arguing should not be present. There does not need to be a group of people that everyone else struggles to become.

Not only is this frustrating to a individual, but it's frustrating to a community. I can't tell you how many of my friends over the years on this game quit, because they couldn't accomplish goals, because they couldn't get cool and exciting things from end game. I know people who would try different venues, and they all turned out the same. I can't tell you how many mid-tier shells I was in, where people struggled to become like the "top tier" "1%" ones, only to always fail, or become depressed, or frustrated, and eventually quit. **** the 1% who is so greedy they not only ruin people being able to readily obtain things but they put a entire damper on the community. Is that what we want? A Empire? A Lordship? Where the rich and wealthy rule over the commoners while the commoners struggle to become the rich and wealthy only in frustration and depression?

This is what I and "99%" of people do not want to see. Even people involved in it currently right now. They want to be able to enjoy being great while still retaining a real life.

Basically, how about this? Cater to the "99%" of people, and if you're in the 1% crowd who thinks it's okay to take the quality of a game away from the "99%" because you want to have better gear, because you can play 10 hours a day, well. ***** them. Last I heard "99%" > "1%". I rather have a game where people are happy and accomplishing goals. I think if I ever heard some one argue "I play 10 hours a a day, and I hate this game, because I can't be better than those who play 2-3 a day" I and anyone in their right mind would laugh hysterically.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 2:51am by EndlessJourney
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#114 Aug 14 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Default
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I agree, but your argument has turned more towards game mechanics than 'social responsibility' which is what fired up this thread.

FFXI had bad game mechanics in retrospect, but it was created during the old MMO days, the days of EQ. I would surely hope that the company has learned how to adapt the mechanics for FFXIV. If they haven't, then we simply won't play it.

Quote:

But making it where that almost all the good and exciting end game gear is only available to them, is the problem. And is what I'm arguing should not be present. There does not need to be a group of people that everyone else struggles to become.


That is a problem, and I don't think that the majority of posters here would disagree with you.

But there will always be that select few with the 'best in slot' gear (to borrow a WoW term). There will always be that group with the Relic Weapons (to borrow a FFXI term).

There has to be a 'best geared' or 'most jobs leveled' person in the game, and it will probably not include the 99% of the players. I agree that there should be more exciting gear available to a wider population than FFXI had. It just seems like a flaw in the gameplay of FFXI more than a matter of 'Social Responsibility' to me.

You made great points about how the systems (and lack thereof) made FFXI a frustrating game. I agree with most of them. I just don't think they have much relevance to the 'Social Responsibility' aspect of the thread, aside from it being socially responsible to deliver a quality product to the consumer.
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#115 Aug 14 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
I'm only going to address about half of the complete and absolute stupidity and garbage that this Phess person some how jumbled up in their brain.

So you stop arguing about the content and start arguing about the form. Impressive, but do you really think this makes your position stronger? And I am much smarter than you think :)

And yes, called other position "stupid" only shows that you are immature and unintelligent - as everyone have their rights for their own opinion and opinion rarely stupid, just often not fit to well with others.

EndlessJourney wrote:
You bring up that you lead "Raid-Guilds" in FFXI, I swear to GOD If you were anywhere but Alla you'd be laughed out of the forum and probably banned for stupidity. They are called HNMLS in FFXI, if you had spent any time in them you would know this, and you would know how drastically they differ from FFXI.
But you obviously don't.

I like term raid-guild much more than HNMLS as it is:
a) Easier to understand for people who not in touch
b) Easier to type as does not required caps letters

Quote:
You still don't get it though, do you moron? In FFXI it's not like in WoW, where you can do some raids sections at a time, and if you so desire you can finish another section at a later time. If you start a Dynamis, you have to finish it all at once, or you lose money and chances at the loot, which no one will do. People don't just "leave" dynamis as an entire group because it's been too long.

Please stop this "moron" stupidity, it does not make you looks better.
_Nobody_ force you to go to Dynamis. There are _enough_ content for 30-minutes events.
You just whine because you want those relic armors but whoops, it require some time to spend. Do not go to Dynamis if you cannot spend 3-4 hours - go to BCNM, it requires 30 minutes.
Simple, but I doubt that you ever understand such simple concept.

PS. Normally if you leave event in WoW in middle without really serious reason, and normal event last 4-5 hours, you will automatically kicked out of raid forever. And there no one care about "this boss was killed, i gotta go".

Quote:
Another reason Nyzul Isle is great is that it's one of the only things that comes close to this kind of system. And do you really THINK things should take 1 hour to gather the people for? Standing around shouting for an hour? Ohh wait, that's the players fault to, not the developers. They choose to play like that.

Even LS-only event often takes more than 30 minutes to gather. It is sad that you don't understand simple things.
People tends to be irresponsible - and even with perfect help from developers, some people will just be not on time or have to do something before event (like change jobs, take something from MH/AH, go AFK for some minutes etc).

Quote:
Get it through your thick and incredibly stupid skull. PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS.

YOU don't want this. Stop talking about _people_ - as you cannot know (and everyone cannot)

Quote:
- because you want a reward from there. But then you start whine that it takes too much time - this is what i call not understanding inner reasoning and common stupidity of players.


Quote:
Okay, so it is common stupidity of players, and not understanding inner reasoning because they want rewards for their effort, but they do not want to spend incredibly long amounts of time that have detrimental effects on one's real life and schedule?

The stupidity is think that someone else responsible that they go to 5-hours event (and for main-stream events times are very well known inbefore, unlike PW) and it impair their real-life and schedule.

I for example, don't play much now - so i now skip most end-game activities (only stay to those that i'm interested in) - and I never whine that I cannot afford play enough and get those shining armors and weapons (even if i do want them)

Quote:
Do you think it's okay for some folks to play 10 hours a day? Those kids in Japan who do nothing but play FFXI 10 hours a day? The guys in Western Countries, who have all the great loot, and play 10 hours a day, is that a okay and healthy play style for ANYONE? They could be outside, exercising, enjoying life, socializing, MAKING A LIVING, doing other things. But to be ultimate at this game, you must give up things like that. And you some how justify that because some people are not meant to be at the top, it's okay for some to be like this?

It's not you to decide. And anyway - you will not be able to stop those folks.
The most important difference between me and you on this question - is that I _KNOW_ how it looks like from inside, as I played extensively for several years. And I know that there just no way even with some forcefull decision, to stop people from playing 20 hours a day. If you can't escape in one game - you will escape in two or make twinks or find any other way to prolong you presence and activity in virtual world.

Quote:
So a normal game shouldn't force players to be fair to one another? It shouldn't record their progress? It shouldn't have systems in place to not allow manipulation and lost time? They shouldn't be "Forced" into this?

The random loot is fair to an absolute. All other system is just extension of this fairness and all of them have their pros and cons.

Quote:
Do you even know why laws exist in the world, and are in place? Since you obviously don't, let me fill you in. Do you know why no one has complete freedom in this world? It's because if it were the case, while many people would do the right thing, many people would abuse it and take advantage of it. That's why there are speed limits, that's why drugs are illegal, that's why laws are put into place, in the real world, and video games alike.

Laws, normally, protect the weak and regulate freedom so one man's freedom will not hurt others. They are not meant to regulate what to think or what to do (to some extent). There even laws that meant to _protect_ freedom.

Quote:
You're right, it shouldn't be mandatory. Let's just let people go join a linkshell and work hard for a year for a drop, so that some one else can join that week and lot it over them. DKP systems FTL amirite? Good job thinking outside the box. Sadly, it doesn't work.

You are too narrow-minded, it hard to explain simple things to you.
You know, that some DKP system will give those item to a new person automatically and wishes of very old players will be ignored? This is a systems where loot first distributed to key persons (main tank, main-heal etc) and than - to everyone else - and it is considered "fair" in compact raid-guild/hnmls motivated strictly to progress.

And even so - in this particular event everyone put efforts equally, why those who stay in guild longer get reward first? It's not fair from the point from this particular fight (where everyone put the same efforts). This is the explanation why random loot still often used - in easy events there are no point in rewarding old versus new - all put same efforts, and for previous tries old ones already got their chances for loot.

Quote:
This is called "Greed" and "Manipulation".

It's usually called motivation and goals.
Different sets of motives and goals - different middles which considered commonly as "fair point".
You cannot create an absolute fair point as fairness between two - is where both get/loose about the same. For every two such point will be different.

Quote:
People do 6 BCNM's at once so everyone can have a equal chance at making money, since it is equal effort.

You can just split reward equally, no? Make a rotation? There are a lot of thing how to organize event to some degree of fairness. Remeber, we are talking mostly about organized group of people, not just random shout group (as shout group rarely go to Dynamis or

[quote]People rarely do 20 levels of Nyzul Isle at once, some times they do, rarely, but even then once you get the people it's only 2 hours long. Most people generally do 2-3 Nyzul Isle, some times just one at a time.[/quote]
Actually, it's quite common, at least in my LS.

[quote]And once again, do you THINK it should take an hour to gather people together? I guess if there was a BETTER SYSTEM for it, you could gather them in 10 minutes[/quote]
No system will protect you from "brb, AFK".
#116 Aug 14 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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First of all, you have on at least two occasions quoted me rhetorically. You gave no response, and the implication was clear that you were trying to turn my own questions towards me. Or maybe you're just that forgetful, and you meant to say something, but didn't? Either way, it's difficult to take you seriously.

Alright, so let's get back to this little example. I think "sleep" is a bad example, because some people feel they need more sleep than others. You can say that you would log off if you needed to sleep, but what if you don't normally get enough sleep anyway? There are plenty of people who don't get the recommended amount of sleep.

So what if, rather than needing to go to sleep, you simply don't want to play anymore? Or maybe you have other things to do, but they're not especially important.

Would you still leave the group? Would you waste all of that time for yourself and the 17 other people, or would you suck it up and finish?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#117 Aug 14 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Alright, so let's get back to this little example. I think "sleep" is a bad example, because some people feel they need more sleep than others. You can say that you would log off if you needed to sleep, but what if you don't normally get enough sleep anyway? There are plenty of people who don't get the recommended amount of sleep.

So what if, rather than needing to go to sleep, you simply don't want to play anymore? Or maybe you have other things to do, but they're not especially important.

Would you still leave the group? Would you waste all of that time for yourself and the 17 other people, or would you suck it up and finish?


Well, I would suck it up and finish as those things are not especially important like sleep. I wouldn't want to waste the time of other players, but I know where to draw the line. I will usually inform the group at least an hour before hand that my schedule would not permit me to play past a certain time.

If I hit that self-imposed timer, I am logging. If I don't want to play anymore, then I will finish the mission for the group, but in no way will I let it impact my life.

I'll admit, I don't mind skipping something like vacuuming my house every now and then... especially if I am about to get through Omega. I just won't skip sleep work school eating my family or my friends for it.



Quote:
First of all, you have on at least two occasions quoted me rhetorically


I don't know what you mean there. Unless it is a compliment.

Rhetoric : the art of speaking or writing effectively

Or perhaps as a question asked with no intended response.

1 a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>

I didn't use any question marks.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 6:20am by Shazaamemt
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#118 Aug 14 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Phess has become so incredibly stupid, hypocritical, closed minded, and just plain absolutely wrong and retarded on so many levels, that I'm not going to even bother writing out anymore responses to them. They are beyond stupidity to a point it's not even funny, and is just incredibly annoying. I'm letting myself get trolled by them, and I'm going to stop.

Shazamemt, while still wrong is at least opening their mind to a few things and making a few "decent" arguments so I will address some one such as them who at this point is showing at least mild signs of brain activity. (that's a compliment by the way)

Shazaamemt wrote:
I agree, but your argument has turned more towards game mechanics than 'social responsibility' which is what fired up this thread.


My entire argument all along has been about the game mechanics. But they do tie into the social aspect of the game as well. As I said earlier, there will be people addicted to ANYTHING, but there are also different levels of how severe that addiction can become and how commonly. Not everything is cut and dry.

Quote:
FFXI had bad game mechanics in retrospect, but it was created during the old MMO days, the days of EQ. I would surely hope that the company has learned how to adapt the mechanics for FFXIV. If they haven't, then we simply won't play it.


I'm glad you're starting to understand some of these things. This is the truth and I hope they have learned as well.

Quote:

But making it where that almost all the good and exciting end game gear is only available to them, is the problem. And is what I'm arguing should not be present. There does not need to be a group of people that everyone else struggles to become.

Quote:
That is a problem, and I don't think that the majority of posters here would disagree with you.

But there will always be that select few with the 'best in slot' gear (to borrow a WoW term). There will always be that group with the Relic Weapons (to borrow a FFXI term).

There has to be a 'best geared' or 'most jobs leveled' person in the game, and it will probably not include the 99% of the players. I agree that there should be more exciting gear available to a wider population than FFXI had. It just seems like a flaw in the gameplay of FFXI more than a matter of 'Social Responsibility' to me.


Okay, here's where I will meet you halfway on this one. While there shouldn't always be a group with the "best in slot" gear, having a few select pieces for them, that are possibly very marginally better than many other options everyone else has available might be acceptable, but within reason.

I also think no matter WHAT your progress should be recorded by the game itself. Meaning even for those people, they aren't using crappy DKP systems and the like, where if their group disbands they lose all those countless hours of work. That was another big flaw in FFXI, the risks you take in doing end game. It should be something to where if you accomplish it through many tireless hours, your progress should be saved, and you should eventually reach your goal.

Just because the progress is saved by the game doesn't mean you didn't work hard for it, and it's not rare and cool. Example? Relic weapons and Mythic weapons. We all know how incredibly rare and insanely awesome they are. They are obtained through In-Game point systems believe it or not. Clunky ones at that, but still they are systems that you can record your progress with, and if one group disbands you do not lose all your work.

I cannot tell you how many of my friends quit out of frustration, of actually spending those long hours of time in end game, only to get screwed out of something, or have a group disband on them. I surely do not want to see that no matter what.

Quote:
You made great points about how the systems (and lack thereof) made FFXI a frustrating game. I agree with most of them. I just don't think they have much relevance to the 'Social Responsibility' aspect of the thread, aside from it being socially responsible to deliver a quality product to the consumer.


It ties into people feeling different obligations, but as we both know and as I admit, in the end it falls into the players lap to know when to say "No".

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 3:28am by EndlessJourney
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#119 Aug 14 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
As I said earlier, there will be people addicted to ANYTHING, but there are also different levels of how severe that addiction can become and how commonly. Not everything is cut and dry


That's the main problem I have with using the term 'addiction' here. It really is cut and dry. There aren't differing levels of addiction, just differing levels of how people can cope with it.

Those people who play for 10 hours a day will still play 10 hours a day, unless they cut off the enabler. (the game).

If it is a matter of addiction, then they should steer clear of online games. If it is a matter of irresponsibility, then it is up to the player to become more responsible.

I don't see a way to mandate social responsibility for individuals. It doesn't matter what the developers do or for that matter what a government does. It is simply impossible (barring any major breakthroughs in psychiatry and government).

Quote:

It ties into people feeling different obligations, but as we both know and as I admit, in the end it falls into the players lap to know when to say "No".


It all lays in the individual's lap.
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#120 Aug 14 2009 at 2:45 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Phess has become so incredibly stupid, hypocritical, closed minded, and just plain absolutely wrong and retarded on so many levels, that I'm not going to even bother writing out anymore responses to them. They are beyond stupidity to a point it's not even funny, and is just incredibly annoying. I'm letting myself get trolled by them, and I'm going to stop.

As I said before - you just want the game to match perfectly to your game style (and of course treat yourself as *majority*) and readily dismiss other game styles.

You are continue to try insult me by adress my personal traits (which is very funny behaviour) and keep deaf about what I told you.
I spend a lot of time in MMOs and I know - there are a lot of different people, a lot of fractions with their own gamestyle, view on game and wishes - and it cannot just put to 99% people vs 1% people.

As for addiction - I was addicted - so i know that what you are proposing here as salvation just plain bullsh*t.
#121 Aug 14 2009 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well, I would suck it up and finish as those things are not especially important like sleep. I wouldn't want to waste the time of other players, but I know where to draw the line. I will usually inform the group at least an hour before hand that my schedule would not permit me to play past a certain time.

If I hit that self-imposed timer, I am logging. If I don't want to play anymore, then I will finish the mission for the group, but in no way will I let it impact my life.

I'll admit, I don't mind skipping something like vacuuming my house every now and then... especially if I am about to get through Omega. I just won't skip sleep work school eating my family or my friends for it.


Good. All I wanted to hear was an admission that people playing FFXI will find themselves feeling obligated, for lack of a better word, to commit significantly more time in game than they actually wanted to. When you find yourself playing a video game and it seems -unreasonable- to -not- keep playing for an hour or two longer in pretty much any situation, then there are fundamental problems with the game design. And this is a common occurrence for people playing FFXI while it's relatively rare for people playing other MMOs.


Quote:
I don't know what you mean there. Unless it is a compliment.

Rhetoric : the art of speaking or writing effectively

Or perhaps as a question asked with no intended response.


A free lesson, then. Expand your vocabulary. Hint: It's neither of those.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorically

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetoric
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#122 Aug 14 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
And this is a common occurrence for people playing FFXI while it's relatively rare for people playing other MMOs.


It's pretty common amongst MMOs. In fact it is a staple amongst MMOs.

And the rhetoric thing was a joke, lighten up. But you pretty much linked the exact definitions I gave. Thanks for the confirmation of my definitions.

Quote:

A free lesson, then. Expand your vocabulary. Hint: It's neither of those.


Hint: both of those were definitions you linked. In fact they were WORD BY WORD the same definitions. (a free lesson)

Hint: you are just further derailing because you don't debate an issue, just insult or derail.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 7:02am by Shazaamemt
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#123 Aug 14 2009 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Snout wrote:
Snip.

Snout, thank you very much for your thoughts. It's nice to read the opinion of a professional.
#124 Aug 14 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
What you advocate for is that the rest of the gaming community (the 90%+) will somehow have to pay a penalty because some people can't control themselves when they are playing?


Are you @#%^ing stupid or what? I'm advocating that the 90% of those players DO HAVE ACCESS to the things the 10% of addicted people who cannot control themselves only have access to as of now. I'M FIGHTING FOR THAT 90%. Holy Christ, reread my posts. God gave you a brain for a reason, USE IT.


No, I'm not stupid, please keep your fuc*ing language at a mature level if you want to validate your point and stop calling people stupid or any other irrelevant names. Back to your point, what on earth gives you the right to represent those 90% you claim you are advocating? Are you god? Are you their lawyer? Who the **** do you think you are? You have in no way any right to represent those 90% and no one has given any the right to do so, so stop this bullshi*t "I speak for the majority". YOU ONLY SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.
#125 Aug 14 2009 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
Maldavian wrote:
What you advocate for is that the rest of the gaming community (the 90%+) will somehow have to pay a penalty because some people can't control themselves when they are playing?


Are you @#%^ing stupid or what? I'm advocating that the 90% of those players DO HAVE ACCESS to the things the 10% of addicted people who cannot control themselves only have access to as of now. I'M FIGHTING FOR THAT 90%. Holy Christ, reread my posts. God gave you a brain for a reason, USE IT.


No, I'm not stupid, please keep your fuc*ing language at a mature level if you want to validate your point and stop calling people stupid or any other irrelevant names. Back to your point, what on earth gives you the right to represent those 90% you claim you are advocating? Are you god? Are you their lawyer? Who the @#%^ do you think you are? You have in no way any right to represent those 90% and no one has given any the right to do so, so stop this bullshi*t "I speak for the majority". YOU ONLY SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.


You just proved yourself hypocritical. Congratulations. The best argument you could make when I blatantly proved you wrong is "WHO THE **** GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE".

And you wonder why I called you stupid? Yes, I will continue to call people stupid, when they refuse to use their brain, and refuse to accept that all the defaults and the majority of people arguing against them could possibly be right.

A wise person once told me, if you don't want to be called an idiot, don't act like one.
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#126 Aug 14 2009 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

It's pretty common amongst MMOs. In fact it is a staple amongst MMOs.



"Pretty common" for other MMOs translates to "incredibly common" for FFXI. If you're going to try to argue that it's not significantly more common to be caught in those situations in FFXI, where everyone knows that it takes hours to do anything, then I think pretty much everyone is going to know that you're full of ****. I have a hard time believing that even you don't realize that.


Quote:
And the rhetoric thing was a joke, lighten up. But you pretty much linked the exact definitions I gave. Thanks for the confirmation of my definitions.

Hint: both of those were definitions you linked. In fact they were WORD BY WORD the same definitions. (a free lesson)


See, it helps your case when you understand the nature of semantics. Words commonly have multiple meanings. Whether or not you knew two of them was not the point. The point was that you clearly didn't know the others.

And the fact that you couldn't figure that one out for yourself, well, maybe at this point is wasn't actually possible for me to think less of your powers of deduction.
Quote:

Hint: you are just further derailing because you don't debate an issue, just insult or derail.


Oh? I thought I made a perfectly clear and valid point. But I'm not surprised that you've chosen to ignore it, as it's pretty impossible to argue against without looking obviously retarded.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#127 Aug 14 2009 at 4:05 AM Rating: Default
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You are still evading my question. Let me repeat it so that you can read again, maybee this time you won't miss it;
Quote:

What on earth gives you the right to represent those 90% you claim you are advocating?
#128 Aug 14 2009 at 4:12 AM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
You are still evading my question. Let me repeat it so that you can read again, maybee this time you won't miss it;
Quote:

What on earth gives you the right to represent those 90% you claim you are advocating?


I'm representing the same 90% of people you were representing yourself. About how 90% shouldn't be punished for what 10% do. That has been my argument this entire thread. How 90% of the people in a game shouldn't be punished over what 10% are able to do. You couldn't see that and made some stupid statements, so I pointed it out.

Anything else I can answer for you?
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#129 Aug 14 2009 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Well SE has to deal with subsections of the gamer demographic as well as the industry as a whole. We have the young gamers who have a lower sense of the value of time so theirs is more disposable. Then therse the older gamers with a higher sense of value of time and have responsibilities. the younger gamers can afford to spend 10 hours a day to make good progress, older gamers have try and make the shorter amount of time they can invest worthwhile which ffxi doesn't cater to so well.

The fact there are extensive arguments on this subject should prove that SEs perceptions of making reasonable progress was flawed. Those with disposable time should take into consideration that if a portion of your demographic has an issue with some core principles of a game you enjoy, to not write it off as trivial banter and to consider the merits of these complaints.

The arguments about personal responsibility reminds me of the same arguments people have with the PS3. Many fanbois saw value with all the features it offered, while others found those features not worth the investment. fanbois found it strange that there were some people woh did not care for these features in the same way those with a lot of time on there hands don't see the issue with the time investment in ffxi. Even Sony was wondering why their wasn't a larger demand for their expensive piece of hardware which shows theirs a disconnect.

These are cases of companies not taking consideration of the diversity of their consumers and design software/hardware with a one-size fits all philosophy behind it. The fanbois only serve to exacerbate these trends for all gamers with there zealotry.

Though the same goes in the other extreme where we get a ton of crappy games targeted at "casual" gamers. The industry is now catering to 2 demographics, but what about those in the middle? Those who aren't so dedicated(hardcore) but also hate lame/mediocre/gimmicky(casual) games?

The industry has done a good job expanding its consumer base but it still has a ways to go when it comes to getting to know there new demographics.

FFXIV is a sign that SE has gotten to know its consumers much better than many other MMOs that have climbed the diving board and bellied flopped into oblivion.

I expect there to be much less arguments over the merits of progression in the MMO space in the future. If discussions like this appear in the future then its a sign of a development companies shortcomings over the issues of personal responsibility.

The topic of "personal responsibility" in itself is flawed since their are more "substantial" things things we spend time doing, such as working, yet theirs no studies in "work addiction" surfacing anywhere altho we do refer to people who chose to stay busy as "work-aholics". Theres plenty of jobs people are expected to do that are hazardous to there health, yet their is nothing wrong with this. It seems to only lie with things we do for fun versus things we do for a living.

Makes one wonder if their isn't a War on Fun. Its not just MMOs that want to rape us of time, its also the trends and expectations of a civilized society but I'll stop here since this post is already long and before I digress more into existentialism >.<.



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:15am by baltz
#130 Aug 14 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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I have been reading what's written down since page one, near the end, I'm going to be honest, I just stopped reading because it seems to me that most of the arguments are just wheeling back what was said in previous posts, mostly written in different words.

I just wanted to say that, I played this game when it was released at NA, and played it through PS2 using usb keyboard/controller. Despite not hitting 75, I have played it for a very long time and even had a chance to do HNMLS' and a few Dynamis' here and there.

To me, this game was all about my friends. By that, I mean the friends that I have made through this game, some I have met in real life, some I still talk to, and some I wish I kept in touch with still. To me, this game was all about community, I was a 68 RDM with a joyouse even though I couldn't use it, why, I liked helping my HNMLS with camping stuff.

I quit eventually due to the fact that, I found a better way to cope with my family problems I was having at the time. I switched to doing more sports because me spending countless hours with online was going to cost my health, so I made the decision to stop playing. I never regretted that decision and that was probably one of the first few very real decisions I have made for myself. Eventually I got into WoW, played that from release until the beginning of this year. I had done the whole 7 days a week raiding, I had done the countless hours of farming for mats for pots, food and so on. I also did that when I played FFXI.

One thing I realized, and I continue understand better and better, even with some of the stuff that I read is that, games will always be games. Everyone plays them for their own reasons. For me, it was an escape from reality when I really needed it, when I realized I did not need to hide behind it any longer, I casually stopped playing and started focusing on what was important to me at the time.

I went to school, lost weight, did sports, hung out with people, life went on. For me, my time in FFXI has always been and always will be something that I loved doing. Just like what I do for a living now, I'm a mixologist for the top catering company in my city. However, since I am finding the time to branch off to other things, getting back into the game as a casual gamer appeals to me and with the release of FFXIV, I will come back.

Everyone has their own reasons to play, if you want to call that an addiction, sure. However, I will not have someone come and tell me that "I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE TO STOP" - you always have choices. Getting gear to me was never important, doing my job to the best of my abilities has always been my motto, in real life and in-game. I will not have some prick come and tell me that, I have to attend this raid for this many hours or else I'm kicked, well guess what? buhbye!

I really loved the environment SE created for me, and I still love it. It created an environment for me to socialize, trade and learn how to do business. I had static leveling parties, I had pick-up parties of people I grouped with before, and I also did the crafting. To me, this game was more of a social environment, to some it was for doing end-game HNM stuff. But it was a very well built environment for everyone that wanted to enjoy the game the way they wanted to, and for that SE did a great job.

As a player, you give others exactly what you're capable of giving, no one can expect you to give 110% when you don't have 110% to give. When you get out of your way, and choose to stay online for more then you can handle, then you choose that. If you get kicked off because the group deems you irresponsible, then you just laugh and move on, they weren't for your playing style anyways.

People seem to forget that, everyone has a different gaming style and because of that, you cannot hold anyone accountable, that's why we don't have one big LS in each server, everyone joins people that cater to their needs and wants. I didn't go back and check, but I been through the hardcore and I been through the family tight-knit Linkshells and to me, I had fun only when I choose to play the game the way I wanted to.

When you start forcing yourself into doing stuff you don't want constantly, then you burn out.. Or situations at home change, you get a job, you get married and/or have kids. When you know you have other responsibilities, and prioritize, you make the right decision. You cannot ignore that, and as far as I know, most people won't ignore that because the calling would be too much for anyone to bear.

I congratulate SE for making what I consider is the best game for ME to play. For me, for you it might not be, if you don't like it, you leave it, simple. No one forces you to continue playing.
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#131 Aug 14 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
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The thread becoming more and more positive and constructive after some people finally decide to cut off themselves with excuse "you are too stupid"

BeaumontSD wrote:
One thing I realized, and I continue understand better and better, even with some of the stuff that I read is that, games will always be games. Everyone plays them for their own reasons.

Unlike "common opinion" on forums true majority does not care about "purpple pixels", length of event or accessability of event - they just play *the game* how they like. They just treat game as it expected to be - hardcore plays hardcore and willinglessly pay insane price. Average folks do some events here and there and just satisfied with what they got. Casual enjoy exploration, communication or just virtual world by itself.

Of course, there always some people which I called "wannabe hardcore" (or, some outdated reference, is a "munchkin") that want to be cool and glorious but not mature/capable enough to just do so - they are _very_ loud and like to whine the most.
#132 Aug 14 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:


Oh? I thought I made a perfectly clear and valid point. But I'm not surprised that you've chosen to ignore it, as it's pretty impossible to argue against without looking obviously retarded.


Then what is your point? Given that I must be 'obviously retarded' it was apparently not 'perfectly clear', because I just don't get it.

Unless all your other posts where I 'rhetorically' answered you were your point: in which you stated that you thought it was 'common sense' and 'sensible' to continue playing for hours. In which you also stated that sleep could be forgone for the sake of continuing the mission.

I saw that point, it just was not very common sense or sensible.

So if I am missing your point completely, please sum it up for me.
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#133 Aug 14 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I reiterated it in that same post.

Quote:
"Pretty common" for other MMOs translates to "incredibly common" for FFXI. If you're going to try to argue that it's not significantly more common to be caught in those situations in FFXI, where everyone knows that it takes hours to do anything, then I think pretty much everyone is going to know that you're full of sh*t. I have a hard time believing that even you don't realize that.


And you admitted yourself that at times you suck it up and play even when you don't really want to. Would that make you an addict?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#134 Aug 15 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
If it only requires you to spend 1-2 hours a day on FFXIV to accomplish similar goals, doesn't it stand to reason there's a drastically lesser chance that people will play 6+ hours a day?



No.... it doesn't stand to reason. If I can accomplish something in 2 hours in 14 that would have taken me 6 hours to accomplish in 11, I'm going to continue on and accomplish 2 more things over the course of the next 4 hours that I would have spent playing 11 anyways. That's what stands to reason.
#135 Aug 15 2009 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately you don't always know how long something will take. If it takes me 6 hours to finish an event that I thought would only take 4, then I'm going to finish it. If it takes me 2 hours to complete one event and 2 for the next, then I'm going to quit.

So maybe there's a problem with your ability to reason. Having the option to log off without wasted effort is an extremely important factor in determining playtime behavior for many people.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#136 Aug 15 2009 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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DsComputer wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
If it only requires you to spend 1-2 hours a day on FFXIV to accomplish similar goals, doesn't it stand to reason there's a drastically lesser chance that people will play 6+ hours a day?



No.... it doesn't stand to reason. If I can accomplish something in 2 hours in 14 that would have taken me 6 hours to accomplish in 11, I'm going to continue on and accomplish 2 more things over the course of the next 4 hours that I would have spent playing 11 anyways. That's what stands to reason.


If some one takes you out to a movie, a really good long movie like Braveheart, let's say it lasts 4 hours. You enjoyed the movie, but because of the long run time you have to cancel some of your plans that evening. You look to the person who took you out and say "I wish that movie would have only lasted about 2 hours", they then ask "why?" and you respond "Because I wouldn't have had to cancel my other plans for the day".

The person who took you out to the movie then looks at you and says "That's not true. If the movie would have only been two hours long, you would have just wanted to watch another two hour movie".

This is the best analogy I can give, that people can't seem to comprehend. In FFXI it's not like other MMORPG's as bad as some people want it to be, or try to make it out to be. While there are cases of people playing longer than they should, when they could stop what they are doing without losing progress, most COMMONLY the case is that the events themselves take these long amounts of time, and usually to achieve a goal in them you have to do them consistently, meaning however many times a week. God forbid you do more than one of them, that's how it starts taking over people's lives.

If some one wants to complete a event in FFXI, the event itself usually takes a very long amount of time, forcing them to either completely forfeit the event, or requiring them to stick through it. Most of the time in FFXI, when most people DO go through the drudgery of completing a event, they log afterwords. If you could actually complete a event in a lesser amount of time, it would give folks the freedom to be able to do other things, and not be forced to continue doing something in particular for a extended period of time.
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#137 Aug 15 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Unfortunately you don't always know how long something will take. If it takes me 6 hours to finish an event that I thought would only take 4, then I'm going to finish it. If it takes me 2 hours to complete one event and 2 for the next, then I'm going to quit.

So maybe there's a problem with your ability to reason. Having the option to log off without wasted effort is an extremely important factor in determining playtime behavior for many people.


I'm assuming you're replying to my post. I'm talking about addicts here, not people who think rationally.
#138 Aug 15 2009 at 3:39 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
DsComputer wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
If it only requires you to spend 1-2 hours a day on FFXIV to accomplish similar goals, doesn't it stand to reason there's a drastically lesser chance that people will play 6+ hours a day?



No.... it doesn't stand to reason. If I can accomplish something in 2 hours in 14 that would have taken me 6 hours to accomplish in 11, I'm going to continue on and accomplish 2 more things over the course of the next 4 hours that I would have spent playing 11 anyways. That's what stands to reason.


If some one takes you out to a movie, a really good long movie like Braveheart, let's say it lasts 4 hours. You enjoyed the movie, but because of the long run time you have to cancel some of your plans that evening. You look to the person who took you out and say "I wish that movie would have only lasted about 2 hours", they then ask "why?" and you respond "Because I wouldn't have had to cancel my other plans for the day".

The person who took you out to the movie then looks at you and says "That's not true. If the movie would have only been two hours long, you would have just wanted to watch another two hour movie".


Bad analogy is bad. We're talking about a game here, not going out to see a movie. A game where the sole purpose for a lot of the hardcore addicts is to obtain shinys, to the point where they feel they must camp an NM for 6 hours to try to claim it for the chance to get the shiny, and continue to camp it until they finally do. If those people can get the shiny after 2 hours, they are going to spend the next 4 hours trying to get more shinys, cause that's what they're used to.
#139 Aug 15 2009 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
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DsComputer wrote:
Bad analogy is bad. We're talking about a game here, not going out to see a movie.


/sigh

I don't know how much more SIMPLE I can make it. Analogies AREN'T exactly the same, that's what makes them an analogy. It's comparing two different things. Also, they are both forms of entertainment. A video game should never be anymore important than say, seeing a movie, so it actually is a close enough analogy, and if you would listen to what I described in it, you would actually see why I used it and the point I'm making but.

Like some other people, you just cannot comprehend.

Quote:
A game where the sole purpose for a lot of the hardcore addicts is to obtain shinys, to the point where they feel they must camp an NM for 6 hours to try to claim it for the chance to get the shiny, and continue to camp it until they finally do.


The point of any MMORPG for most people, among other things, is indeed obtaining "shinys". This is not a behavior reserved for addicts. And to get the claim, and to get the shiny, you have no choice BUT to do what you described. Still failing to see how this can drive normal people to play more than they ideally want to or normally would?

Quote:
If those people can get the shiny after 2 hours, they are going to spend the next 4 hours trying to get more shinys, cause that's what they're used to.


Please don't generalize. For the biggest majority of people, after they have seen how demanding FFXI and other MMORPG's can be on time, people are better educated these days, and more aware of spending too much time on a game. Most people would love to accomplish something in a fair amount of time.

Keeping these normal players from doing so because of the off chance of some one with an addiction who would keep playing ANYWAYS is just, it defies all logic.

Also, Forced meme is Forced, is very annoying.
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#140 Aug 15 2009 at 4:22 AM Rating: Default
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I stopped reading when you insulted me. I understand completely what the OP was trying to get across. That doesn't change the fact that it's already a personal choice for FFXI players to play for extended periods of time, and ignore the whatever you wanna call it that they click thru when they log on. Trying to blame it on SE that they play as much as they do is a cop-out.

There are plenty of people who accomplish their long-term goals without sacrificing their real lives to the game.

There are also plenty of people who are addicted, and can never get enough, and will continue to go on and on doing the next thing as soon as they finish with their immediate task. Making things take less time is not going to change this. Is that so hard to understand?

#141 Aug 15 2009 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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DsComputer wrote:
I stopped reading when you insulted me. I understand completely what the OP was trying to get across. That doesn't change the fact that it's already a personal choice for FFXI players to play for extended periods of time, and ignore the whatever you wanna call it that they click thru when they log on. Trying to blame it on SE that they play as much as they do is a cop-out.

There are plenty of people who accomplish their long-term goals without sacrificing their real lives to the game.

There are also plenty of people who are addicted, and can never get enough, and will continue to go on and on doing the next thing as soon as they finish with their immediate task. Making things take less time is not going to change this. Is that so hard to understand?


Personal responsibility falls short because the individual falls short. I expect an assembled board of executive members for any company, especially Square Enix (Ltd.) to come together and have our best interests as HUMAN BEINGS in mind. Collectively, they can do better than I can singularly. Sure: They are a business. But they are people dealing with other people and if they forget that—or ignore it—shame on them.


#142 Aug 15 2009 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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DsComputer wrote:
There are plenty of people who accomplish their long-term goals without sacrificing their real lives to the game.


Then why are we having this discussion in the first place? Why was this thread started? Why have so many people quit FFXI? Why do the people who are generally responsible with their real lives and continue to play FFXI avoid end game for the most part, aside from smaller things like Nyzul Isle? Why is it known that all the people with the great gear play the game too much? Why is square enix developing their next MMORPG to be more "Casual Friendly" in their own words? Why did they even say themselves you would have less time constraints, and could sit down for 1-2 hours and actually accomplish things? Why?

Are you seriously that blind? No, don't answer that, you are, like all the other idiots being defaulted, who do not understand what's being said. All you want to do is keep arguing your point instead of stopping, and thinking "Hmm, what exactly are they saying? Maybe I should think deeper about this, it might make some sense".

Quote:
There are also plenty of people who are addicted, and can never get enough, and will continue to go on and on doing the next thing as soon as they finish with their immediate task. Making things take less time is not going to change this.


Sure, it's not going to change the people who are naturally addicted and do not know when to stop. There is no way to stop them, that isn't what this is about.

There is more than one kind of person playing FFXI too much, for more than one kind of reason, and for the majority it's because it is required to progress in end game.

Is that so hard to understand?

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 5:44am by EndlessJourney
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#143 Aug 15 2009 at 4:52 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Why is square enix developing their next MMORPG to be more "Casual Friendly" in their own words? Why did they even say themselves you would have less time constraints, and could sit down for 1-2 hours and actually accomplish things? Why?

Are you really that off of reality?
There were no word about "end-game will be easy for brain-dead people", even no word that changes will affect end-game at all.

It's just some words that game will be more casual friendly and you can actually do something in 2 hours. Those casuals DO NOT care about endgame, they care alot about 5 hours long sitting to get into a party, about too repetitive and too long way to 75, about insane amounts of gil (and thus insane time for farming) - but certainly not about 5-hours raids that they doesn't have time to attend (most of them even don't care about raids). This is what about _true_ majority care the most, not those majority of some wannabe hardcore that managed to grind to 75 and than found out that they are just too lazy/incompetent/"do not have enough time" to efficienty raid.


Edited, Aug 15th 2009 8:56am by Phess
#144 Aug 15 2009 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
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Seemed like a perfectly good analogy to me. I won't even go to the movie theater generally because I don't like having to sit still for that long. At the very least you have to acknowledge that FFXI is inflexible, and flexibility is definitely a plus to promoting casual play.

If there's a 4 hour event, I'm -required- to sit there for four hours in order to finish. If there are two 2 hour events, then I can do one now and one later. You can argue that I would just do two 2 hour events in the same 4 hours, which is an interesting theory except that... I wouldn't. So I guess that pretty soundly defeats that argument.

Though it's mildly amusing, I have to say I get a little tired of people who can't admit when they're obviously wrong. Especially when they're people who apparently can't even manage Scholar status. I mean, I'm pretty much a giant ****, and I've never lost Scholar. And because I'm a ****, people have tried, believe me.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#145 Aug 15 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There were no word about "end-game will be easy for brain-dead people", even no word that changes will affect end-game at all.


Casual =! easy

Casual means you can play a game casually.

Quote:
a. Occurring at irregular or infrequent intervals; occasional:


A 4 hour event is not harder than two 2 hour events. It's just more of a pain in the *** to manage your time around.

You're an idiot. Maybe if you hear it enough, you'll start to believe it. Stay in school kids.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#146 Aug 15 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
If there's a 4 hour event, I'm -required- to sit there for four hours in order to finish. If there are two 2 hour events, then I can do one now and one later. You can argue that I would just do two 2 hour events in the same 4 hours, which is an interesting theory except that... I wouldn't. So I guess that pretty soundly defeats that argument.

There is some points that people like you and Endless readily dismiss. There are actually events with different lengths - from several minutes to several hours - why not to choose those which suits you most?
In the same analogy - it is the same as say - all films should be no longer than hour and half. And 3-hour movies should be prohibited as "addictive and inhuman". You are willingly go to those 3-hour movies, even know beforehand about their length, but still ***** and whine.

Cap all event to 2 hours _ain't_ flexibility - it is inflexible approach to length of events.
#147 Aug 15 2009 at 5:21 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Casual =! easy
Casual means you can play a game casually.

The game will be more suitable for casuals does not mean that casuals could do anything on par with hardcore, you know? Only that life of casuals will be easier.

WoW is a simpliest example that ruis your whole theory - it's considered as on of the most casual friendly MMO games, yet it end-game is insane hardcore and, of course, not a place for "casual playstyle" past several initial instances.

Kachi wrote:
You're an idiot. Maybe if you hear it enough, you'll start to believe it. Stay in school kids.

Maybe am am an idiot.
Or maybe I am too old and too smart for you too understand simple concepts I am talking about.
#148 Aug 15 2009 at 5:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't go to three hour movies because I know I'll be able to rent them later and watch them at my leisure.

And pretty much the only content in FFXI that isn't inflexible is solo content, which there is sooooooo much of. No, I guess I'm not required to do 3 hour events, which is exactly why I quit the game. But pretty much everything takes at least 3 hours in FFXI.

Nevermind, you're right. SE should just resolve to make a bad game that people will happily quit.

I guess you can't even grasp a simple concept like flexibility, though, so why bother talking to you.

Edit: And yes, I guess I could explain what I mean by that, but then you wouldn't understand that, and then I'd explain it, and you wouldn't understand my explanation, or you'd offer some logical fallacy, or quibble over semantics... I mean, really, I've encountered your brand of debater before a hundred times. You're only worth talking to for as long as it provides amusement.

Quote:
Or maybe I am too old and too smart for you too understand simple concepts I am talking about.


LAUGHING MY ************* *** OFF

Considering your grasp of the English language is that of a 12 year old, unlikely.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 6:27am by Kachi

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 6:29am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#149 Aug 15 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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Phess wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
Why is square enix developing their next MMORPG to be more "Casual Friendly" in their own words? Why did they even say themselves you would have less time constraints, and could sit down for 1-2 hours and actually accomplish things? Why?


Are you really that off of reality? There were no word about "end-game will be easy for brain-dead people", even no word that changes will affect end-game at all.


So if people can't dedicate 5+ hours a day to end game they are brain dead? Okay.

Quote:
It's just some words that game will be more casual friendly and you can actually do something in 2 hours.


You can do ALL KINDS of things in FFXI in 2 hours, it's End Game which is the problem, and where most problematic systems arise.

Quote:
Those casuals DO NOT care about endgame


People who are casual players do not care about FFXI end game because THEY CANNOT AFFORD THE TIME SPENT to do it. This is WHY we want a BETTER SYSTEM in FFXIV where we CAN do end game.

Great God Almighty how dumb can you be?

Quote:
they care alot about 5 hours long sitting to get into a party, about too repetitive and too long way to 75, about insane amounts of gil (and thus insane time for farming) - but certainly not about 5-hours raids


This is absolutely and completely backwards in every way. You have proven that you did not play FFXI, and if you did you did not get very involved in end game, or you were a complete failure at it.

Quote:
that they doesn't


My spelling isn't that great, and I'm not one to be a grammar ****, but look at your spelling. You can't even get the BASICS down. You can't even understand basic comprehension and grammar. Dear God...

Quote:
have time to attend (most of them even don't care about raids).


You are so shallow minded. They DO care about "raids". Most casual people avoid them in FFXI because they cannot be done in a reasonable amount of time. So they find happiness in other aspects of the game, as people in this thread, even those I have argued with will admit.

Quote:
This is what about _true_ majority care the most not those majority of some wannabe hardcore that managed to grind to 75 and than found out that they are just too lazy/incompetent/"do not have enough time" to efficienty raid.


You disgust me to the point of wanting to vomit. I swear to God I've not seen anyone on this or any other forum as completely stupid and incoherent, oblivious, blind, ignorant, and stubborn as yourself.

I'm honestly wondering why this person hasn't been banned from the forums yet for trolling and being the most gigantic idiot in Allakhazam History.

I rather be stuck on an Island with Anna, BRP, and Rambus all at the same time for the rest of eternity than here one more of this idiot's posts.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 6:33am by EndlessJourney
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Long Live Vana Diel.
#150 Aug 15 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
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endless journey you do make some good point but as with evrything you can't generalize evryone.
Just so you know i did stop playing ffxi. fun game addictive aswell and still there is no other mmorpg like it

Your right that some event took several hrs to complete.
My LS had a point base system and even if you never finished an event you still got points
not going to go into the system but most of the older members in the ls had good gear
even the casual players, we manage our times very well

#151 Aug 15 2009 at 5:53 AM Rating: Good
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lacesus wrote:
endless journey you do make some good point but as with evrything you can't generalize evryone.


Not generalizing, speaking for the majority. I'm against generalizing as I've said several times in this thread.

Quote:
Just so you know i did stop playing ffxi. fun game addictive aswell and still there is no other mmorpg like it

Your right that some event took several hrs to complete.
My LS had a point base system and even if you never finished an event you still got points
not going to go into the system but most of the older members in the ls had good gear
even the casual players, we manage our times very well



Even at that, wouldn't it be more use if everyone could actually finish the events? I've been in let's see... 9 HNMLS all together, 2 of which I owned, 2 I was a officer in, 5 I was a member in, in my end game history. This includes Dynamis, Limbus, End game events, etc. And in any of them if you left early often you simply didn't get points, and if it kept happening people would ask you nicely to leave. In the ones I owned I simply did not give the points to myself because I saw it unfair.

I see what you are saying though, about giving points per hour, but this really hurts a shell when you claim a last window King and half the people who showed up are gone, or at the halfway mark of a Dynamis run people start leaving, which is why systems like that more commonly than not do not work and are not used.

I'm not saying you didn't get lucky, and find a good group who some how managed it, Kudos to you. But for most people it sadly isn't the case. But as I said, I won't completely generalize anything, I'm just speaking for the majority.
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