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Social Responsibility: An open letter to Square EnixFollow

#152BeaumontSD, Posted: Aug 15 2009 at 6:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is obviously not true. First off, you do not speak for the casual players, especially you not being one of them when you played the game. You said so yourself how your linkshells were like, so I do know that you do not come from a casual LS or you, yourself are a casual player.
#153 Aug 15 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Uh, I was a casual player in an endgame shell. Needless to say it's not the greatest fit, but ****, not even the people who wanted to be in an endgame shell really -enjoyed- those aspects of endgame. As you say, the enjoyment was in doing things together, if anything, but even that gets overshadowed by endgame drama at times. Even "no drama" shells have drama... they just get it in bursts when they inevitably have to kick out the people causing drama.

I joined my LS about three months after release, and stayed with them the entire time. Eventually we merged into an endgame LS that had a similar philosophy and goals, and it worked out well. But I got tired of endgame content pretty quickly and started to play casually. And even though I quit over a year ago, I still talk to them (in game, no less... we have an app now where I can talk to them from any PC). I would happily keep playing if endgame weren't such a bullsh*t timesink.

Whatever. It's pretty easy to speak for the majority on this, because the majority talks about it fairly often. Think that people like setting several hours aside to do Kirin pops? No, they do it to get drops for themselves and the LS, even though they've already spent 100 hours (sometimes literally) doing Kirins and are otherwise fully sick of it.

The majority quit FFXI when they realized how ridiculous endgame is in FFXI.

Also, my LS has great policies, but you still lose half of your attendance if you show late or leave early. (Farming events are hourly.) And that's for the simple reason that you can't do the events you have planned if you can't count on people to be there when they need to be.

Really, the fact that endgame requires calendars and attendance records to be run smoothly, I think I've already said, is ridiculous. Nowadays your LS is pretty much a joke if they don't have their own webpage. Real casual friendly-like.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 7:59am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#154 Aug 15 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
People want systems where their progress is recorded, where they can put the game down and feel like it's okay, where they can do something in a 1-2 hour sitting and actually accomplish a decent goal, and feel good about themselves and feel good about becoming better in the game they enjoy.


@EndlessJourney

I will only quote that part to start my post.

There we have the reason you think "we" are astronomical stupid...I was considering people who were/are ADDICTED to FFXI, not that type of player who will only stay online for certain reasons, but because they felt they HAVE to stay online as they got nothing else!

You are argueing about reasons that people stay online because they want to get that one thing done, while I am talking about people who stay online because they want to stay online!

You are not talking about addicted people, you are talking about people who want to get something done before they log off with the feeling they haven't acheived everything during the time online!

Those players you are talking about might log of in FFXIv after playing 2 hours because they achieved what they set their goal for today/wekk w/e.

I was talking about people who don't play for achieving one certain goal, but for achieving as much as possible, despite how long they stay online!

THAT IS WHY I WAS ALWAYS POSTING THAT PEOPLE WHO PLAYED FFXI AND GOT SOMETHING DONE IN 6h+, WON't PLAY LESS JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN ACCOMPLISH SIMILIAR THINGS IN FFXIV IN 2h+! I AM TALKING ABOUT ADDICTED PEOPLE! YOU ARE NOT!

Sorry for caps...but I thought this one sentence should be "marked as important" :p

PS: And you argueing about those posters with "stupid" arguments are players who got no clue of Endgame of FFXI...I can assure you I am more than capable of stating my arguments and I most defintely done enough Endgame to say I got enough knowledge of FFXI.

My LS I joined back in 2004 is still existing til now...just for your interest...you probably know them as well...Excellence...we have been one of the first worldwide to defeat Bahamut V2 and were providing strategies for other LSs...I know FFXI Endgame and have been among the players on our server, who even got to do certain Endgame activitiesas first before even most LSs started doing it, so don't bother calling me "stupid and having no Endgame experience"

Just wanted to point out that we were talking about 2 totally different type of players...while I was talking about addicts, you were talking about players who just stayed online, because they thought they need to get something done.

That is why I said people who got addicted to FFXI, will probably get addicted to FFXIV as well(as long as they didn't change some personal issues)

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 3:06pm by Shezard

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 3:10pm by Shezard
#155 Aug 15 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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I have been bored for the last 2 weeks, the common thing to do would be to spend that time playing a game that can keep you busy for a gamer. Yet playing ffxi is does not sound appealing to me right now since the tasks that are waiting for me are boring and time-consuming as ****. I have quite a bit of time on my hands right now, so it should say something when I don't feel like playing ffxi. If I didn't feel like I had to devote more than about 2 hours into it I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I'll need quite a bit. Eventually I'll prolly do them anyway, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I think about it right now.

My high anticipation for FFXIV prolly plays a part in why I don't feel like playing ffxi too, hence my frequent posts.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 11:17pm by baltz
#156 Aug 15 2009 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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When I played ffxi I was always getting compliments for how good I was at my job. Please do not equate casual with no skill. Alot of us had the skill to do anything the game had to offer just not the ability due to time. I work twelve hour rotating shifts, I have a wife and 5 kids, and own a home with two acres of land to upkeep. Asking me to do anything for five hours regarding a game is ridiculous. I had two rl friends that I introduced to ffxi and they hit 75 before I hit 35. That's how slow I progressed and that never bothered me. Slow progression is not the problem. It was not being able to enjoy an enormous amount of game content because I had to logout shortly after it even began. If I can play ffxiv for 2 hours and do amost anything the game had to offer then I will be happy with it.

Edit: since people are getting angry about plural pronouns in this thread, when I used the word "us" I was referring to casual players that quit ffxi for the same reasons i did. I wasn't referring to anyones idea of who the majority of the playerbase is or was.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 11:31am by LeadSalad
#157 Aug 15 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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You are not talking about addicted people, you are talking about people who want to get something done before they log off with the feeling they haven't acheived everything during the time online!


To be fair, it's both. If someone who isn't addicted has a hard time justifying logging off, imagine how hard that makes it for someone who is. And that was the point... SE puts that disclaimer out there that basically says "don't get addicted" but they created a game that enables people who are prone to be addicted to keep playing. It's that much easier for the addict to keep playing when everyone else is staying logged in too. It's harder for them to take a step back and say, "Ok, maybe this isn't normal..." when it IS normal.

And things like Maat's Cap... are you kidding me? That's just a cocaine carrot on a string for an addict.

When you create a video game, you are creating goals. When you want people to play that game responsibly, you need to create responsible goals. Goals that require players to play irresponsibly in order to achieve them are nothing to be encouraged. They should be denounced.

Rock Band, for example, has an achievement for completing the infinite setlist without pausing the game... Bladder of Steel. Yes, a reward for denying your bodily functions for 6+ hours straight as you work on your carpal tunnel syndrome in order to unlock this achievement. Now, it's easy to dismiss this as something that you just shouldn't try then, but then... why put it in the game? Are there people who SHOULD try for this achievement?

In fairness, Rock Band makes no disclaimer, and they offer no friendly advice on how to maybe steer your life in the right direction. Rock Band is just too ******* hardcore, much like a rock star, to baby you with that ********* So at least they're not hypocrites about it. That's sorta commendable, right?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#158 Aug 15 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Edit: And yes, I guess I could explain what I mean by that, but then you wouldn't understand that, and then I'd explain it, and you wouldn't understand my explanation, or you'd offer some logical fallacy, or quibble over semantics... I mean, really, I've encountered your brand of debater before a hundred times. You're only worth talking to for as long as it provides amusement.

You are much worse. You think you are a cool and wise, and yet you lack understanding details.

Kachi wrote:
Considering your grasp of the English language is that of a 12 year old, unlikely.

It hard to beleive, but there are some countries outside US.

EndlessJourney wrote:
So if people can't dedicate 5+ hours a day to end game they are brain dead? Okay.

People that need 5 hours to acomplish what requires 2 - are incompetent. People who dedicate 5 hours when they cannon afford it - are brain dead. Heck, even people that don't go but whine that they want to go - are brain dead retards

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You can do ALL KINDS of things in FFXI in 2 hours, it's End Game which is the problem, and where most problematic systems arise.

Simply no

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People who are casual players do not care about FFXI end game because THEY CANNOT AFFORD THE TIME SPENT to do it. This is WHY we want a BETTER SYSTEM in FFXIV where we CAN do end game.

You are uninformed idiot that think too high about himself.
85% of FFXI population even don't have 75 job. Of the rest half don't care about raiding at all and some minor play as is and don't care about time.
The rest, like 5%, consists of stupid, very loud, very annoying retards who think very high of themselves.

So yes, majority of casual players does not need an improvements of end-game, they need an improvement of mid-game.

Quote:
This is absolutely and completely backwards in every way. You have proven that you did not play FFXI, and if you did you did not get very involved in end game, or you were a complete failure at it.

You dare to put some counter-examples? Beeing vocal is so suits you...

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My spelling isn't that great, and I'm not one to be a grammar ****, but look at your spelling. You can't even get the BASICS down. You can't even understand basic comprehension and grammar. Dear God...

Very funny. You like to join league with Kachi in efforts to insult me. And obviously not intelligent or educated enough - or you will know that there are some people to whom English is not native language - and you are really retarded to think that everyone obliged to have perfect english in game that are positioned to be international.

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You are so shallow minded. They DO care about "raids". Most casual people avoid them in FFXI because they cannot be done in a reasonable amount of time. So they find happiness in other aspects of the game, as people in this thread, even those I have argued with will admit.

Most casual people cannot go to raids because they simply too low - got get some actual data and not your own stupid suggestions.

Quote:
I'm honestly wondering why this person hasn't been banned from the forums yet for trolling and being the most gigantic idiot in Allakhazam History.

You are beeing offended. It's good - because unlike you I try to resort to logic rather than plain insults and vocal statements that "I know everything".
It usually works magnificient on people who have weak reasoning and logic base behind their position.


Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:17pm by Phess
#159 Aug 15 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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And things like Maat's Cap... are you kidding me? That's just a cocaine carrot on a string for an addict.

When you create a video game, you are creating goals. When you want people to play that game responsibly, you need to create responsible goals. Goals that require players to play irresponsibly in order to achieve them are nothing to be encouraged. They should be denounced.

Rock Band, for example, has an achievement for completing the infinite setlist without pausing the game... Bladder of Steel. Yes, a reward for denying your bodily functions for 6+ hours straight as you work on your carpal tunnel syndrome in order to unlock this achievement. Now, it's easy to dismiss this as something that you just shouldn't try then, but then... why put it in the game? Are there people who SHOULD try for this achievement?

In fairness, Rock Band makes no disclaimer, and they offer no friendly advice on how to maybe steer your life in the right direction. Rock Band is just too @#%^ing hardcore, much like a rock star, to baby you with that bullsh*t. So at least they're not hypocrites about it. That's sorta commendable, right?


Things like maat cap and the rockband achievement are for the extra hardcore people that will play the game that much. There is nothing wrong with having a small amount of content for the people that will play this much. Casual players should get acknowledged but you shouldn't just ignore the hardcore players altogether. Every achievement is not for every person, and their should be content for every type of person.

If you are "casual" then have "casual" goals, and if you are insanely "hardcore" then have insanely "hardcore" goals. This goes for the people inbetween also, and the game should have content (or goals) for all types of players. I admit FFXI didn't do a good job of this but they said they will in ffxiv. If their is content for all types of players, and players would just stick to their type of content goals, then it wouldn't be a problem. Instead, people cry about other type of goals, and don't just stick to their own. Why does it matter if 1 NM out of 1000+ NMs, took 16 hours to kill. I admit thats too long for me, but believe it or not some linkshells have people that can devote 1 day to killing it and enjoy doing it.

Now all that is assuming their will be tons of content and nms for every type of player. If thats true then stay in your play type goals, and don't whine over 1 NM thats not in your play type. The game is for everyone, not just your play type, and their are people that enjoy that content. Like the rockband example, i'm sure the game has many casual achievements, why does it matter if 1 achievement is for the hardcore crowd. The problem is people want to achieve every single thing, like the game is made just for your play type. I'll say it again, ffxi didn't do a good job of this until lately of having other content, but its nothing wrong with having insanely hardcore content also.



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:29pm by HocusP
#160 Aug 15 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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It hard to beleive, but there are some countries outside US.


And honestly, I considered that English might not be your first language. I considered it, and then I realized two things.

1) Even if it's not, what you said is still hilarious because your arguments are ridiculous on their own.
2) It probably is. And I am further inclined to think so because you point out the possibility at least twice but seem careful not to say that it's not your first language.

But if it's not, then I'll suggest that you go brush up on it. It's one thing to struggle with the language, but thus far you're barely able to convey a convincing argument, which I doubt is so much due to language barriers as a cognitive inferiority. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

Quote:
Things like maat cap and the rockband achievement are for the extra hardcore people that will play the game that much. There is nothing wrong with having a small amount of content for the people that will play this much.


Except that no one should really play that much. Even if you're not neglecting other responsibilities to do so, it's simply not healthy. Thus, it's irresponsible to create incentives for that kind of behavior.

I mean, you say there's nothing wrong with "insanely hardcore" content... does it not occur to you that maybe if something can be considered "insane" that maybe there IS something wrong with it? Especially when "insane" is being used in context not of having insane skills, but being insanely devoted. It's not really a compliment, for good reason.

Basically, you're trying to convince me that game developers should include content for people who play for too long. And pretty much any argument you offer in support of that stance is not going to cut it for me. I'm just going to keep thinking that your standards of responsibility are sorrily ******* and therefor are not an adult (legal sense aside).
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#161 Aug 15 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
1) Even if it's not, what you said is still hilarious because your arguments are ridiculous on their own.
2) It probably is. And I am further inclined to think so because you point out the possibility at least twice but seem careful not to say that it's not your first language.

Dare to argument?
Not that stupid bullsh*t - "you are an idiot" but something more logical and constructive? Only facts and analysis, not stupid opinions got from nowhere, derailing and insults.

Kachi wrote:
But if it's not, then I'll suggest that you go brush up on it. It's one thing to struggle with the language, but thus far you're barely able to convey a convincing argument

I am not trying to "convince" you - you are not worth to me "convince" you.
I just state some facts and my view on them (analysis) - you can either agree with it or argue. And I will mostly ignore stupid comments like "you are an idiot" as they are useless.

Kachi wrote:
which I doubt is so much due to language barriers as a cognitive inferiority.

More like cognitive superiority - I was considered (and felt myself) as smart, highly skillful hardcore player long, long time ago.
The problem is that I _know_ that feelings "i'm cool", "i know everything", "i am majority" have usually nothing to do with reality.


Edited, Aug 15th 2009 2:05pm by Phess
#162 Aug 15 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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lmao

Look, man, you're just too easy. I can't not be smug when you churn out this kind of material.

I was really kind of hoping you'd tell me what country you're actually from though.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#163 Aug 15 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Look, man, you're just too easy. I can't not be smug when you churn out this kind of material.

It's just too easy that you derail thread. I do understand that you don't want to talk in logical and constructive matter - it most likely greatly damage you position and most likely you just not capable to do it.
So, of course, keep avoiding answers and continue call me "idiot" and "stupid nobrainer" it certainly gives your position a win (when I finally die from bother of reading you emo comments) - it seems the only way you have.

Kachi wrote:
I was really kind of hoping you'd tell me what country you're actually from though.

What for?
#164 Aug 15 2009 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Look, I'm REALLY SORRY. I just want to know what language you grew up with so that I can offer you a proper apology.

Please to respond.

I really don't want to call you no brains. Let's make a friend.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#165 Aug 15 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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I'm from Russia, I'm 28 and I work in financial holding
#166 Aug 15 2009 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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BeaumontSD wrote:
Quote:
People who are casual players do not care about FFXI end game because THEY CANNOT AFFORD THE TIME SPENT to do it. This is WHY we want a BETTER SYSTEM in FFXIV where we CAN do end game.


This is obviously not true.


Obviously not true how? If something if obvious, why didn't you present a point behind it?

Quote:
First off, you do not speak for the casual players, especially you not being one of them when you played the game. You said so yourself how your linkshells were like, so I do know that you do not come from a casual LS or you, yourself are a casual player.


Sadly you're wrong. The majority of my time was spent as hardcore, but for periods of time I did play casually, and compared the two, and saw how they worked and didn't work. I had many friends, many people I knew who played casually, and as I said, when I tried to play casually with them, I saw all the faults and road blocks of trying to do things casually. Times when I had very demanding jobs, I learned of this all too well.

Even at that, you don't need to be a casual player to know how the casual system works. Being hardcore means you surpass that system, so you already understand how it works, and what would be needed to make it work better. All it takes is some one hardcore to evaluate what they are doing and how it could be made more casual. It's not rocket science.

Quote:
Secondly, you do not represent the majority either


Yes, I do. I really do, ask around in game, read the FFXI forums, and the FFXI suggestion forums, for many many pages back, find what the common attitude and common sense is about these issues, and you will find out I do.

Quote:
and you especially do not represent me. You don't sit there and call people stupid, idiot, dumb and tell others about what "we" want, because you don't talk for me, and you certainly do not talk for others.


Just because I don't represent you doesn't mean I don't represent others. How hypocritical of you, telling me not to speak for others when you are doing the exact thing yourself in telling me I am not to speak for them, when I am going with the majority opinion. You're right though, I don't speak for you, but you are not in the majority.

Quote:
Don't try to make yourself sound like the voice of the people, because you're not. So next time you think of making a sentence, it should be singular to begin with. Not we, nobody is supporting you.


Let the stupidity reign free. Mad much? If no one is supporting me why are so many people making the same argument as me against a few people who don't get it, why was this thread started, and why are all my posts and kachi's posts rated as good or excellent when all of yours, and the few with your idea rated as default?

Quote:
I stayed casual because I enjoyed the groups of people I played with, not because I didn't have time to do stuff


Different strokes for different folks. This is not usually the case. I'm glad you did stay with your friends, instead of going to the heavier content, but by doing so even you yourself were denied end game you could have been doing and progressing further in the game with. That's why most people don't make this same decision sadly.

Quote:
because when I was in a HNMLS and my friends were in there, then I did end-game stuff, again, because I enjoyed the company of the people with whom I played with.


You are very lucky and fortunate. Not everyone is this lucky and fortunate though, in fact most aren't. If you can't see that and be thankful for what you were blessed with, then... Well...

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 1:34pm by EndlessJourney
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Long Live Vana Diel.
#167 Aug 15 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Except that no one should really play that much. Even if you're not neglecting other responsibilities to do so, it's simply not healthy. Thus, it's irresponsible to create incentives for that kind of behavior.

I mean, you say there's nothing wrong with "insanely hardcore" content... does it not occur to you that maybe if something can be considered "insane" that maybe there IS something wrong with it? Especially when "insane" is being used in context not of having insane skills, but being insanely devoted. It's not really a compliment, for good reason.

Basically, you're trying to convince me that game developers should include content for people who play for too long. And pretty much any argument you offer in support of that stance is not going to cut it for me. I'm just going to keep thinking that your standards of responsibility are sorrily @#%^ed, and therefor are not an adult (legal sense aside).


Why "shouldn't" they play that much. Stop making your own generalizaed rules, many people watch tv for 6 hours and do other hobbies for that amount of time. Does it require you to play 6 hours straight everytime to get the achievement? NO, it just requires you to set time aside 1 time. Many people can plan and set 6 hours a side and not neglect anything, and its called time management. There is nothing wrong with having content in a game for the hardcore people that can manage their time. That could be on the weekend, on their day off from work, or anything, and it doesn't mean they have a problem.

The word insane doesn't mean anything is wrong. The word insane means extremely, just like when you have an insane difficulty on a game it means extremely hard. Their is nothing wrong with being extremely hardcore, and yes their should be content for these people. Have you ever heard of a weekend? Some people might not play a game at all during the week but on weekends they play this much. Does that mean that they have a problem? No it means they managed their time where they can enjoy themselves during the weekend. Your idea of how long a day you "should" play only refers to you, stop using your views for everyone else. You have no idea what other people job, work, and life situations are, yet you think you can decide how much they can play. Not to mention people that play games that are retired, so has more free time to enjoy themselves then others. Point is you don't know people situations, so stop acting like you do.

The not healthy arguement doesn't hold up, you can be healthy and play a game a lot. Smoking is not healthy but is heavily used, and playing a game doesn't mess with your health unless you neglect your life. 6 hours straight is far from messing with your health, if you managed your time.





Edited, Aug 15th 2009 5:22pm by HocusP
#168 Aug 15 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Quote:
because when I was in a HNMLS and my friends were in there, then I did end-game stuff, again, because I enjoyed the company of the people with whom I played with.

You are very lucky and fortunate. Not everyone is this lucky and fortunate though, in fact most aren't. If you can't see that and be thankful for what you were blessed with, then... Well...

The funniest part that to make into even elite ls (which is normally guarantee to 90% of stuff other just dream about) you need only:
a) Be a good man
b) Be a good player
c) Have a lot of friends (which is usually due to a) and b) )

And if you are a ****** - you are doomed to play with retards and no developers can help you.
#169 Aug 15 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
[quote]

The not healthy arguement doesn't hold up, you can be healthy and play a game a lot. Smoking is not healthy but is heavily used, and playing a game doesn't mess with your health unless you neglect your life. 6 hours straight is far from messing with your health, if you managed your time.





Edited, Aug 15th 2009 5:22pm by HocusP

Pessimistic evaluation:
6 hours for sleeping.
1 hour, 30 minutes for eating and cooking/pursuing food.
1 hour for hygiene.
1 hour out the window for misc. errands such as cleaning up after the cats, giving the dog a quick walk, making two pots of coffee, three smoke breaks, organizing your calendar for the upcoming weekend.
7 hours for your job OR 2 hours for class, 2 hours for studying.

That's 16 hours for the professional, or 13 for the student.

If close to a third of your day is spent on a single video game, I raise my eyebrow. If close to a third of your day is spend on a single video game for you, the student, I'm questioning why you're blowing Mom's, Dad's, and Tax Payer's money when you could be volunteering, running for student government, or nailing that internship interview.

I am a gamer. It is a hobby I budget for proudly weekly. Not daily. Occasionally, a game or two kills the schedule, but those bouts of virtual passion are short. (You can only play through Final Fantasy IX so many times...). If you spent 6 hours a weekday (not even a day!) on video games, I'd be really skeptical of that lifestyle.

I've been there! I've done it! I know how amazing it is to sit down on a quiet Thursday evening and game for eight hour straight and love every single second of it! But if you do the same thing Friday and Saturday and... that's just irresponsible. Especially because the benefits to reap become marginal after while.
#170 Aug 15 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Pessimistic evaluation:
6 hours for sleeping.
1 hour, 30 minutes for eating and cooking/pursuing food.
1 hour for hygiene.
1 hour out the window for misc. errands such as cleaning up after the cats, giving the dog a quick walk, making two pots of coffee, three smoke breaks, organizing your calendar for the upcoming weekend.
7 hours for your job OR 2 hours for class, 2 hours for studying.

That's 16 hours for the professional, or 13 for the student.

If close to a third of your day is spent on a single video game, I raise my eyebrow. If close to a third of your day is spend on a single video game for you, the student, I'm questioning why you're blowing Mom's, Dad's, and Tax Payer's money when you could be volunteering, running for student government, or nailing that internship interview.

I am a gamer. It is a hobby I budget for proudly weekly. Not daily. Occasionally, a game or two kills the schedule, but those bouts of virtual passion are short. (You can only play through Final Fantasy IX so many times...). If you spent 6 hours a weekday (not even a day!) on video games, I'd be really skeptical of that lifestyle.

I've been there! I've done it! I know how amazing it is to sit down on a quiet Thursday evening and game for eight hour straight and love every single second of it! But if you do the same thing Friday and Saturday and... that's just irresponsible. Especially because the benefits to reap become marginal after while.


The one big flaw in your scope is most people dont work every single day. Their are things called "days off" and their are also vacation time but thats another thing. That would mean on your day or days off, that is 7 more hours of free time. You also don't go to class every single day. Not to mention people that are retired and have loads of free time but thats also another issue. The point is, what is wrong with content for the hardcore people? Content that they could enjoy on occassions when they have days offs (like on the weekend). To say that their should be no content for these people, because you feel they "shouldn't" be playing that long is insane. You don't know them or their lifestyle to be able to tell them how long they should be playing on their day off.



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 7:57pm by HocusP
#171 Aug 15 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:
Pessimistic evaluation:
6 hours for sleeping.
1 hour, 30 minutes for eating and cooking/pursuing food.
1 hour for hygiene.
1 hour out the window for misc. errands such as cleaning up after the cats, giving the dog a quick walk, making two pots of coffee, three smoke breaks, organizing your calendar for the upcoming weekend.
7 hours for your job OR 2 hours for class, 2 hours for studying.

That's 16 hours for the professional, or 13 for the student.

If close to a third of your day is spent on a single video game, I raise my eyebrow. If close to a third of your day is spend on a single video game for you, the student, I'm questioning why you're blowing Mom's, Dad's, and Tax Payer's money when you could be volunteering, running for student government, or nailing that internship interview.

I am a gamer. It is a hobby I budget for proudly weekly. Not daily. Occasionally, a game or two kills the schedule, but those bouts of virtual passion are short. (You can only play through Final Fantasy IX so many times...). If you spent 6 hours a weekday (not even a day!) on video games, I'd be really skeptical of that lifestyle.

I've been there! I've done it! I know how amazing it is to sit down on a quiet Thursday evening and game for eight hour straight and love every single second of it! But if you do the same thing Friday and Saturday and... that's just irresponsible. Especially because the benefits to reap become marginal after while.


The one big flaw in your scope is most people dont work every single day. Their are things called "days off" and their are also vacation time but thats another thing. That would mean on your day or days off, that is 7 more hours of free time. You also don't go to class every single day. Not to mention people that are retired and have loads of free time but thats also another issue. The point is, what is wrong with content for the hardcore people? Content that they could enjoy on occassions when they have days offs (like on the weekend). To say that their should be no content for these people, because you feel they "shouldn't" be playing that long is insane. You don't know them or their lifestyle to be able to tell them how long they should be playing on their day off.



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 7:57pm by HocusP


If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I was skeptical of people whose video game schedules are substantial by the dandy, not by the week. If you want to play for seven hours on Saturday and Sunday, each, I suppose that's all fine and day. The problem is what does it say when you've already logged thirty hours for the previous five days? You just gamed over time.

Furthermore: People that have "loads of free time" is an indefinite statement. Who are they? Why are they so free? Can they help it? What is "free time"? That's a nebulous statement. And the retired? Well I never really thought much about them. If you've got nothing better to do then... Although, if you're retired, I'd imagine you wouldn't want to put up with a lot of the e-sh*t that goes on in the Wonderful World of WWW given that you've probably had your *** chewed out by supervisors and other undesirable for fifty+ years. A pot smoking 20 year old on the other end that "Want's his @#%^ing endgame X" is probably going to turn you off, real, real, real quickly.

You want to enjoy something for a long time? Rinse and repeat. Many instances! Many fights! Many monsters (and more levels!) Why be so saturated with just a singular one event? Why are we protecting that? Why are we protecting the eight-hour event? The eight-hour commitment of time to a single, difficult, contested thing over, and over, and over again?

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 8:06pm by KPBeta
#172 Aug 15 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
The one big flaw in your scope is most people dont work every single day. Their are things called "days off" and their are also vacation time but thats another thing. That would mean on your day or days off, that is 7 more hours of free time. You also don't go to class every single day. Not to mention people that are retired and have loads of free time but thats also another issue. The point is, what is wrong with content for the hardcore people? Content that they could enjoy on occassions when they have days offs (like on the weekend). To say that their should be no content for these people, because you feel they "shouldn't" be playing that long is insane. You don't know them or their lifestyle to be able to tell them how long they should be playing on their day off.


You heard it here folks! End game needs to take long amounts of time for all the retired people who play FFXI, because we all know how abundant they are.

Not only that, but on your free days? Why mow the lawn, go to garage sales, go to a movie, go out with friends, go to the beach, when you could play a video game all-day-long?

This is fun enough to make fun of but in all honesty I'll give an honest argument. If you could do it once and be over with I probably wouldn't even mind. But these events in FFXI require you to do them consecutively. Meaning to build points for the items or have a chance of obtaining them, you have to do this all the time.

But who am I to judge the retired folk who play FFXI?
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#173 Aug 15 2009 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I was skeptical of people whose video game schedules are substantial by the dandy, not by the week. If you want to play for seven hours on Saturday and Sunday, each, I suppose that's all fine and day. The problem is what does it say when you've already logged thirty hours for the previous five days? You just gamed over time.

Furthermore: People that have "loads of free time" is an indefinite statement. Who are they? Why are they so free? Can they help it? What is "free time"? That's a nebulous statement. And the retired? Well I never really thought much about them. If you've got nothing better to do then... Although, if you're retired, I'd imagine you wouldn't want to put up with a lot of the e-sh*t that goes on in the Wonderful World of WWW given that you've probably had your *** chewed out by supervisors and other undesirable for fifty+ years. A pot smoking 20 year old on the other end that "Want's his @#%^ing endgame X" is probably going to turn you off, real, real, real quickly.

You want to enjoy something for a long time? Rinse and repeat. Many instances! Many fights! Many monsters (and more levels!) Why be so saturated with just a singular one event? Why are we protecting that? Why are we protecting the eight-hour event? The eight-hour commitment of time to a single, difficult, contested thing over, and over, and over again?


I respect your post I think half my post was referring to you and the other half to kachi. I agree that playing all the time is crazy, especially if your life is being affected by that. I was just trying to make kachi see, how his views of how long you "should" play a day does not reflect upon everyone.

I say retired people because I knew 2 of them that played ffxi and enjoyed it. I just wanted to bring light to the fact that these people do play. Free time is time you have when you don't have any obligations or responsibilities for that moment. For example your day off work, this frees up time because you usually have no other obligations. Sure you could make obligations on your day off, but most people want to just escape on that day and relax. I could be the busiest man during the week but on sunday I watch nfl football all day (from 1-11ish). I don't see that as a problem, I see that as one day I have to myself.

I would rather do 1 event then constantly traveling doing tons of stuff, but thats just me. If that one event can stay entertaining. I would take 1 long entertaining quest anyday, over 20 fast quest. I'm not "protecting" it but I am saying make content for every type of person. I said that ffxi didn't do a good job of this because everything was long and time consuming. This put casual players at a disadvantage, and was not a good thing. I want a lot of content for every kind of player like they said.

Whats wrong with having a few Nm out of 2000+ that takes a long time to kill. Them few nms would be for the people that would be able to do it on occassions and not meant to be farmed. Their is many hardcore linkshells that would pick a day when they have the most members off work, and would enjoy the challenge of killing them. With that said, their should be plenty of NMs and content that doesn't take long to kill or complete. The quality of content should be similar for all types of players also. Then if players would just stick to their type, they would enjoy the game. The problem comes in when people that play in the casual type, wants to do every piece content in the game.

Quote:
You heard it here folks! End game needs to take long amounts of time for all the retired people who play FFXI, because we all know how abundant they are.

Not only that, but on your free days? Why mow the lawn, go to garage sales, go to a movie, go out with friends, go to the beach, when you could play a video game all-day-long?

This is fun enough to make fun of but in all honesty I'll give an honest argument. If you could do it once and be over with I probably wouldn't even mind. But these events in FFXI require you to do them consecutively. Meaning to build points for the items or have a chance of obtaining them, you have to do this all the time.

But who am I to judge the retired folk who play FFXI?


First of all, just because their is not tons of retired people that play doesn't mean forget them. This is not majority rules so ***** the minority, especially when SE said the casual people and the people with 12hour a day will have content. Second of all, telling people how to spend their day off is retarded. Why would you go to a garage sale, and whats the difference of going to a movie everytime you off work? Their is no difference, and the only reason you say stuff like that is because playing a game is looked down upon. People with apartments don't have lawns and people in a house can have people cut thier lawn. You could go out with friends all the time, and some people want to be home and relax on a day off.

Third of all, I didnt say endgame needs to take long for everything. If you could read you would see, I said ffxi didn't do a good job in that area. When I say they should be content for all types of players that include endgame also. Learn to read before you post.

If you have to build points in order to lot then join another ls. Friendly tight knit ls's exist if your reputation is high enough to get one. You can say I was lucky to have that kind of ls, but thats because I refused to be in a point ls.



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 8:42pm by HocusP
#174 Aug 15 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Name a single player rpg that puts a 5 hour or longer gap between save points. Ask any developer and I'm pretty sure they would tell you doing so would be a serious game design flaw. Why can't content be broken into phases that don't have to be completed all at once? Even other ff games put save points inside dungeons so you don't have to complete them in one seating. If you want to do every phase of a raid in one sitting and do it 100 time a week, I don't care. Why would you think it would be so bad if the game allow players like me to do it at their own pace? The only reason has to be that you think you are somehow priviledged because you can throw away hours upon hours of your life playing a game.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 8:54pm by LeadSalad
#175 Aug 15 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
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LeadSalad wrote:
Name a single player rpg that puts a 5 hour or longer gap between save points. Ask any developer and I'm pretty sure they would tell you doing so would be a serious game design flaw. Why can't content be broken into phases that don't have to be completed all at once? Even other ff games put save points inside dungeons so you don't have to complete them in one seating. If you want to do every phase of a raid in one sitting and do it 100 time a week, I don't care. Why would you think it would be so bad if the game allow players like me to do it at their own pace? The only reason has to be that you think you are somehow priviledged because you can throw away hours upon hours of your life playing a game.


For The Win.

Thank you for understanding something so basic. Something that should totally be common sense. This is exactly my point.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 6:14pm by EndlessJourney
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#176 Aug 15 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Name a single player rpg that puts a 5 hour or longer gap between save points. Ask any developer and I'm pretty sure they would tell you doing so would be a serious game design flaw. Why can't content be broken into phases that don't have to be completed all at once? Even other ff games put save points inside dungeons so you don't have to complete them in one seating. If you want to do every phase of a raid in one sitting and do it 100 time a week, I don't care. Why would you think it would be so bad if the game allow players like me to do it at their own pace? The only reason has to be that you think you are somehow priviledged because you can throw away hours upon hours of your life playing a game.


If this is referred to me, once again I said their should be content for all types of players. I said ffxi did not do a good job at this and they put casual players at a disadvantage. I want content for all types of players, and I mean quality content, this includes endgame. Even though 5 hours is a bit of overexaggerating,but thats beside the point. I want casual endgame content that can be done at your own pace, and also hardcore endgame content for that crowd. I don't see how you could actually read what I said, and get your understanding of it. Why not include content for the hardcore crowd, just because you can't do it, doesn't mean people that can manage their time can't. You shouldn't feel like your missing out though, because their should be tons of casual endgame content as well.

Comparing a single player game to an mmo is not accurate. But, lets just do it your way anyway. Even in ffxi (which I already said didn't do a good job), on kings every 30 mins is like a save and stop point. The 1min windows is the only time you need to be actively at your screen. Single player games are meant to be played solo, and a mmo is meant to be played by millions of people altogether. Besides dynamis (which is long), most things they added (einherjar, assault, salvage), had a time limit and was reasonable. Once again ffxi did not do a good job, but this doesn't mean scratch hardcore content altogether. Make content (endgame) for all types of players, like SE tried to do recently with ffxi.

Quote:
Thank you for understanding something so basic. Something that should totally be common sense. This is exactly my point.


Common Sense huh? Says the person thats trying to tell people what to do on their day off work.




Edited, Aug 15th 2009 9:42pm by HocusP
#177 Aug 15 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Phess wrote:
EndlessJourney wrote:
Quote:
because when I was in a HNMLS and my friends were in there, then I did end-game stuff, again, because I enjoyed the company of the people with whom I played with.

You are very lucky and fortunate. Not everyone is this lucky and fortunate though, in fact most aren't. If you can't see that and be thankful for what you were blessed with, then... Well...

The funniest part that to make into even elite ls (which is normally guarantee to 90% of stuff other just dream about) you need only:
a) Be a good man
b) Be a good player
c) Have a lot of friends (which is usually due to a) and b) )

And if you are a ****** - you are doomed to play with retards and no developers can help you.


Thats not true. To be in an elite LS first of all you have to have friends. It has nothing to do with how good you are. The fact is there is plenty of players with skill, so people just choose who the let in based on who they like. Its just like getting a job. The only ****** is you and your logic.

Most players are good people, and most players are good players. Therefore by your logic they should all be in elite LSes which isn't how it works. The people with the leadership control who get into these LSes and their opinions on who they want in control who gets into these LSes. Theres no computer vetting them, only humans vetting them therefore flawed. If you think for a second these LSes are all vetting based on whos good, then you must always think that politicians always make the right decisions, and the right man always gets the right job.

This is not to say that all LSes are like this, but probaly half them or more are and there isnt enough LSes to go around for everyone or enough content. In the end only so many people can compete for the same HNM and only so many poeple can be in dynamis at a time.
#178 Aug 15 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Default
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572 posts
LeadSalad wrote:
Name a single player rpg that puts a 5 hour or longer gap between save points. Ask any developer and I'm pretty sure they would tell you doing so would be a serious game design flaw. Why can't content be broken into phases that don't have to be completed all at once? Even other ff games put save points inside dungeons so you don't have to complete them in one seating. If you want to do every phase of a raid in one sitting and do it 100 time a week, I don't care. Why would you think it would be so bad if the game allow players like me to do it at their own pace? The only reason has to be that you think you are somehow priviledged because you can throw away hours upon hours of your life playing a game.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 8:54pm by LeadSalad


This shouldn't be hard if you have raid instances.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 9:41pm by Maldavian
#179 Aug 15 2009 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I want casual endgame content that can be done at your own pace, and also hardcore endgame content for that crowd.


What I propose is all content being geared toward both styles of play. In my opinion it would be better if every player could do everything in the game at their own pace. Why separate the content into two diffent types. You may as well make two separate games. If everyone can realistically do everything in the game if their willing to put in the effort then everyone would get their moneys worth. I don't like the idea of paying a monthly fee to play half a game.

As for the rest of your post, I quit ffxi before those things were added and I'm glad that SE tried to take a step in that direction.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 9:49pm by LeadSalad
#180 Aug 15 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What I propose is all content being geared toward both styles of play. In my opinion I would be better if every player could do everything in the game at their own pace. Why separate the content into two diffent types. You may as well make two separate games. If everyone can realistically do everything in the game if their willing to put in the effort then everyone would get their moneys worth. I don't like the idea of paying a monthly fee to play half a game.


The why is because SE said you can progress in 30mins a day or 12hours a day (or something similar to that). If you don't have different types of content then obviously the extra hardcore crowd would either be capped from progressing any further at a point, or be overpowered. If every single thing can be done at your own pace and casually, then eventually the hardcore crowd runs out of content and rather quickly. If 30 minutes a day is really progressing (actually real progress), then look how fast 12 hours a day is progressing. The different type of content would keep both happy and would be a solution to the hardcore running out of content. In result its the same game, but different based on your play style.

The all hardcore no casual early stage of ffxi endgame wasn't good because the casual players got the shaft. The all casual endgame would give hardcore the shaft because they run out of content rather quickly. Even the casual friendly mmos, has an hardcore element somewhere in the game to keep the hardcore crowd. With no hardcore elements and everything being done casually, you run the risk of the whole hardcore crowd progressing in months and quitting. The goal for SE is probally to make a longlasting mmo (10+ years), and that would be a huge risk.



Edited, Aug 15th 2009 10:00pm by HocusP
#181 Aug 15 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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LeadSalad wrote:
What I propose is all content being geared toward both styles of play. In my opinion it would be better if every player could do everything in the game at their own pace. Why separate the content into two diffent types. You may as well make two separate games. If everyone can realistically do everything in the game if their willing to put in the effort then everyone would get their moneys worth. I don't like the idea of paying a monthly fee to play half a game.

As for the rest of your post, I quit ffxi before those things were added and I'm glad that SE tried to take a step in that direction.


Why can't everyone understand this logic? Most do, but for the few that do not I don't understand why they can't see these points. Selfishness, and stubbornness contribute to it I suppose.

I'm very glad you understand how this should work, and how things should be fair on Everyone.
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#182 Aug 15 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
The why is because SE said you can progress in 30mins a day or 12hours a day (or something similar to that). If you don't have different types of content then obviously the extra hardcore crowd would either be capped from progressing any further at a point, or be overpowered. If every single thing can be done at your own pace and casually, then eventually the hardcore crowd runs out of content and rather quickly. If 30 minutes a day is really progressing (actually real progress), then look how fast 12 hours a day is progressing


Square Enix said something to the effect of "If you sit down for either 1-2 hours, or 10+ hours, you will be able to enjoy yourself either way". Basically, what you said about that is true, Square Enix did say that. But they didn't say the content would TAKE 10 hours. They were more or less saying if you wanted to invest that much time into the game you could.

The same thing can be said for FFXI and things like leveling. Yeah, you have people who level like mad, like I use to, and have a huge amount of 75 jobs. You are more versatile among other things, and still get to show off your intense progress, without becoming over powered. I think this is how FFXIV will end up.

Square Enix also said themselves, FFXI will be catered as it has been more to the Hardcore crowd, and that FFXIV will be catered to the casual crowd. That is one of the biggest reasons they are creating it, and said they wanted it as their "Flagship MMORPG" in their words. They will still continue to support and work on FFXI, which will remain much more hardcore, but for the MAJORITY of people who want a more casual game, FFXIV will be centered towards them and their needs.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 7:11pm by EndlessJourney
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#183 Aug 15 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Square Enix said something to the effect of "If you sit down for either 1-2 hours, or 10+ hours, you will be able to enjoy yourself either way". Basically, what you said about that is true, Square Enix did say that. But they didn't say the content would TAKE 10 hours. They were more or less saying if you wanted to invest that much time into the game you could.

The same thing can be said for FFXI and things like leveling. Yeah, you have people who level like mad, like I use to, and have a huge amount of 75 jobs. You are more versatile among other things, and still get to show off your intense progress, without becoming over powered. I think this is how FFXIV will end up.

Square Enix also said themselves, FFXI will be catered as it has been more to the Hardcore crowd, and that FFXIV will be catered to the casual crowd. That is one of the biggest reasons they are creating it, and said they wanted it as their "Flagship MMORPG" in their words. They will still continue to support and work on FFXI, which will remain much more hardcore, but for the MAJORITY of people who want a more casual game, FFXIV will be centered towards them and their needs.



Its common sense if you spend 10hours at something you can progress, especially if you can progress in 30 minutes. I took the comments as their will still be a hardcore element for those people that like them, and not as common sense logic. Do you really need to be told, if you can progress in 30mins then you could progress in 10hours? No, so why even say that, I take that as it implies that their will be a hardcore element to the game in some way. As in, some form of content that is considered hardcore to keep the crowd. They did say "aimed a bit" for the casual gamer, and that is fine, but it doesn't mean no hardcore is in the game. You don't even know to what extent does "a bit" mean. The casual friendly mmos all have a hardcore element in them to keep the hardcore crowd. If you don't add this, you run the risk of a whole crowd leaving in months.


Edited, Aug 15th 2009 10:21pm by HocusP
#184 Aug 15 2009 at 6:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't speak for anyone else but myself on this. Progression is a not a big issue with me. If I can login and get on step closer to a goal I'm fine with it, no matter how small of a step it is. In ffxi I could login and play for an hour and get enough exp to satisfy me. I completely agree that a play who plays more often should progress at a pace proportional to their time spent. I just don't want to see any player barred from enjoying any game content because it takes too long to do in one sitting. If you can get to level cap in a matter of months and it takes me a couple years, I'm ok with that. If you can finish a quest, raid, or any other event in a day and it takes me a week or two, again, it's not an issue with me. I do think that casual players need to be realistic and patient to complete their goals, but they shouldn't be restricted from game content because their rl schedule doesn't permit them to play for hours a day.

I think to a certain degree we do agree.
#185 Aug 15 2009 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I can't speak for anyone else but myself on this. Progression is a not a big issue with me. If I can login and get on step closer to a goal I'm fine with it, no matter how small of a step it is. In ffxi I could login and play for an hour and get enough exp to satisfy me. I completely agree that a play who plays more often should progress at a pace proportional to their time spent. I just don't want to see any player barred from enjoying any game content because it takes too long to do in one sitting. If you can get to level cap in a matter of months and it takes me a couple years, I'm ok with that. If you can finish a quest, raid, or any other event in a day and it takes me a week or two, again, it's not an issue with me. I do think that casual players need to be realistic and patient to complete their goals, but they shouldn't be restricted from game content because their rl schedule doesn't permit them to play for hours a day.

I think to a certain degree we do agree.


Yes we do agree to a degree, just started off misunderstood. Most casual players don't think like you and is not realistic, but I would be the first to admit that ffxi was ruff for them. I do agree that they shouldn't be excluded from everything like in early ffxi endgame, but some content to keep the hardcore crowd is a must for SE. To run the risk of having the longevity of months, over that of years is huge. Even if the hardcore content be just kings and relic weapons (for example) and make everything else casual. This would still give hardcore players something to do and goals to keep them around, but also have tons of casual things.

I think that was the direction SE was going with ffxi. People say the kings was never "fixed" but they weren't broken. Instead of making kings casual, SE added casual endgame content. The kings and relic weapons was enough to keep the hardcore crowd, and the new casual endgame content would make the casual players happy. The problem was, they took to long to make casual endgame content, and its really past its peak now. Not to mention the gear was broken because they put the best gear on something that was 2-3 expansion packs ago. They couldn't add better equip because it would break the game, and I think they learned from their mistakes.
#186 Aug 15 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Truthfully, those of us who are grown adults that were supposed to learn restraint, moderation and responsibility would not fault SE for addictive inclinations to their game. That really goes for any other mmorpg out there for that matter. Just like the government should not be rearing my children (since I am the mother and I had her and that makes me responsible for her upbringing), SE should not be held culpable for anyone that cannot manage addictive behavior. Some people have addictive personalities - it can be fixated on a game, a person, an activity and what not. Every human being is accountable to their own actions.

SE is just covering their collective rears like any other company for legal purposes. SE figures we have been forewarned even though we shouldn't be forewarned because we should know better. SE is not interested in anyone suing them due control issues.

Maybe all these companies learned their lesson when McDonalds was sued because a woman was not "warned" her coffee was hot, ending up burning herself.

Common sense is not so common... Or not convenient.
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#187 Aug 15 2009 at 8:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to create a hypothetical situation for the sake of conveying my point.

Your group completes a raid consisting of 5 phases in 4 hours. My group completes the same raid one phase per day and it takes us an hour a day to do it. Both groups get the same chance of getting the same rewards. How does this impact the total amount of game content if every event is designed in a similar manner? How would hardcore player burn through the content any faster than they do in ffxi?
#188 Aug 15 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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The bottom line is that there is just no good reason to have single events that run that long. I don't care how you split it, flip it, twist it... there's no inherent benefit to it. And that's something for which there is no adequate defense.

Quote:
Truthfully, those of us who are grown adults that were supposed to learn restraint, moderation and responsibility would not fault SE for addictive inclinations to their game.


Unfortunately, a large percentage of the player population, and the one most prone to addiction, are not adults. They are kids. And you can blame the parents all you want, but ultimately that does nothing for those kids.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 9:17pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#189 Aug 15 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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LeadSalad wrote:
I'm going to create a hypothetical situation for the sake of conveying my point.

Your group completes a raid consisting of 5 phases in 4 hours. My group completes the same raid one phase per day and it takes us an hour a day to do it. Both groups get the same chance of getting the same rewards. How does this impact the total amount of game content if every event is designed in a similar manner? How would hardcore player burn through the content any faster than they do in ffxi?


Sounds like a good game to me.

As long as they added enough content and weren't lazy, and balanced it out, this would work absolutely perfect. Everyone could be happy, hardcore people could get more done faster, and the more casual people could still access the content. You would still have a separation between casual and hardcore, but everyone could access the content.
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#190 Aug 15 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm going to create a hypothetical situation for the sake of conveying my point.

Your group completes a raid consisting of 5 phases in 4 hours. My group completes the same raid one phase per day and it takes us an hour a day to do it. Both groups get the same chance of getting the same rewards. How does this impact the total amount of game content if every event is designed in a similar manner? How would hardcore player burn through the content any faster than they do in ffxi?


They won't burn through it faster then ffxi, and that would be great for some events. This would be great for raids and instances, but what about other endgame content. Doing every single piece of content like this is a huge challenge. How would you make an NM (an open Nm) able to be killed casually, but still take long for the people that like long battles. This where different types of content comes in at, why not have nms that are casually killed and nms that are not. Your idea works perfectly for raids and instances, but that is just one aspect of endgame.

Quote:
Unfortunately, a large percentage of the player population, and the one most prone to addiction, are not adults. They are kids. And you can blame the parents all you want, but ultimately that does nothing for those kids.


Well it is their parents fault, and to expect a company to monitor children because their parents don't is insane. Be responsible for your own kids, and monitor and raise your own kids.

Quote:
The bottom line is that there is just no good reason to have single events that run that long. I don't care how you split it, flip it, twist it... there's no inherent benefit to it. And that's something for which there is no adequate defense.


Bottom line if people like it (and some do) then that is a good reason to have these events. Stop using your own personal views, and making generalized statements on what should and shouldn't happen.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 1:00am by HocusP
#191 Aug 15 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
How would you make an NM (an open Nm) able to be killed casually, but still take long for the people that like long battles.


I will concede this point to you. Even a very casual player can find time to do the occasional long battle just for the sake of saying they've done it. As long as the drop can be sold or a similar item can be obtained by a different means, they might not even feel the need to do it. I don't think long battles should be in missions and quest that involve progression of the story though. There are other ways of making a battle difficult without making it last forever.
#192 Aug 15 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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424 posts
@ Kachi, because my last response seems to be a page and a half up there since last night:

You said
Quote:

And you admitted yourself that at times you suck it up and play even when you don't really want to. Would that make you an addict?


That's exactly what I was talking about when I opened with 'I disagree with the term addiction being used here'.

Playing a little more when you would rather be watching TV for another 30 minutes and playing when you are supposed to be at work, watching your kids, eating, sleeping, at school, or etc. ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.

Playing when you have obligations is a problem. Playing an extra 30 minutes you have to spare even though you don't have anything else to accomplish in that area with that group is a different story.

And that is just how you and I choose to play, without ignoring responsibilities, but willing to continue on a bit for our online helpers. It isn't a matter of the developers being socially responsible, as we can 'pull the plug' and stop playing anytime we choose (and I always do when I have something more important to do).

If we were FORCED to play through a certain amount of hours per night or suffer a certain penalty that showed up on my credit card... then it would be a matter of social responsibility on behalf of the company.

The company should be 'socially responsible' by delivering a quality product that we want to play (including less time-intensive events and no long LFP times), but we always have the choice to just not play.

Just say 'NO' when you are being pressured into things like waking up at 3am to camp a NM pop.

I think part of the problem here is that SE intended it's playerbase to be more responsible than they actually were.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 1:29am by Shazaamemt
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#193 Aug 15 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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This whole thread reminds me...

I should sue McDonald's, that coffee was way too hot, and they should have been more socially responsible in cooling it down despite the fact that the warning was on the cup.


NOW THE WHOLE EXCESSIVE CHARGES BY SE AND THE BANNING OF LEGITIMATE ACCOUNTS AND THE DIFFICULTY EXPERIENCED IN CANCELING AN ACCOUNT! That is social irresponsibility, and it needs to be fixxed.
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#194 Aug 15 2009 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Bottom line if people like it (and some do) then that is a good reason to have these events.


I can confidently say that 90% of players do NOT enjoy those events in FFXI. They -endure- them, because they -have- to to reach the goals they set. Maybe you've never actually been in a real endgame shell and don't know what it's like. Even the people who enjoy it only enjoy it in the way that you enjoy a job that you don't really like, but the "pay" and the people you work with make it bearable.

But whether they like it or not is really not the issue. It's still irresponsible to capitalize on a demand for irresponsibility.

Quote:
Well it is their parents fault, and to expect a company to monitor children because their parents don't is insane. Be responsible for your own kids, and monitor and raise your own kids.


Worthless idealism. It takes a village.

Quote:
I think part of the problem here is that SE intended it's playerbase to be more responsible than they actually were.


The problem is that if SE's playerbase were more responsible, they wouldn't even be able to experience a lot of the endgame content that SE created.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#195 Aug 15 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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58 posts
Quote:
The problem is that if SE's playerbase were more responsible, they wouldn't even be able to experience a lot of the endgame content that SE created.


bingo.

If more people quit because they weren't going to put up with it SE would have changed their content. SE isn't responsible for you obsessive behavior. Chances are game addicts had obsessive tendancies before they even touched a mmo. Did SE cater to it? Yes, but only because people kept throwing their money at them.

The personally responsible quit the game. Social responsibility came from you're family and friends slapping you in the face to make you realize what you were doing. You cannot force any addict to quit anything. They have to admit they have a problem then decide their ready to do something about it and get help if they need it.
#196 Aug 16 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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424 posts
Quote:
But who am I to judge the retired folk who play FFXI?


Agreed. If you are retired and have already contributed your part to society (and manage your own retirement), you can smoke crack all day if you want to, you are definitely old enough that nobody should care how you spend your days. No sarcasm there, I mean it.

Quote:

Unfortunately, a large percentage of the player population, and the one most prone to addiction, are not adults. They are kids. And you can blame the parents all you want, but ultimately that does nothing for those kids.


That is sad. We should blame the parents. The kids are getting screwed by their parents (or lack thereof) not a game. You can't prevent an irresponsible parent from giving their children cigarettes, alcohol, or a gun if that is what the parent wants to do (aside from removing the child from the parent). How do you expect a game design to prevent an irresponsible parent from allowing their child to play?


Quote:


I can confidently say that 90% of players do NOT enjoy those events in FFXI. They -endure- them, because they -have- to to reach the goals they set. Maybe you've never actually been in a real endgame shell and don't know what it's like. Even the people who enjoy it only enjoy it in the way that you enjoy a job that you don't really like, but the "pay" and the people you work with make it bearable.


You seem to hate elitism while being elitist. Let's face it, you WANTED to be the top of the game, you WANTED to have all that relic gear. You may have set goals that were unrealistic to obtain.

Quote:
Even the people who enjoy it only enjoy it in the way that you enjoy a job that you don't really like, but the "pay" and the people you work with make it bearable.


THEN WHY DID YOU PLAY? That just seems like poor judgment on your behalf to me. But I am sure you will blame it on the game design and call me an idiot or say I have no experience with FFXI. It isn't pay. It is a pixel.

Just a mock discourse here:

'I had to play for hours, because that was the only way to get a Relic weapon'

'Well, perhaps you should have logged out instead of playing'

'I couldn't or I would get kicked out of my Linkshell and it would be very hard for me to get the weapon'

'I still don't see why that prevented you from logging out'

'There is no way of obtaining the Relic weapon aside from grinding for hours, and I need my Linkshell to get the items'

'Couldn't you have just tried logging out when you had to, or finding a group that would be on a similar schedule?'

'YOU MUST NOT HAVE PLAYED ENDGAME, YOU MUST HAVE HAD A BAD LINKSHELL'





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Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

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#197 Aug 16 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:


The personally responsible quit the game. Social responsibility came from you're family and friends slapping you in the face to make you realize what you were doing. You cannot force any addict to quit anything. They have to admit they have a problem then decide their ready to do something about it and get help if they need it.


True. I have been trying to make that point since page 1. I even posted a nice movie exactly on the subject and even specifically about the MMO genre and addiction. Second Skin, unfortunately I can no longer find it available for free on Hulu like I could before.
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Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
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#198 Aug 16 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Default
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54 posts
LeadSalad wrote:
Name a single player rpg that puts a 5 hour or longer gap between save points.

MMO isn't a single player game, and there are no real analogy.

zuogehaomeng wrote:
Thats not true. To be in an elite LS first of all you have to have friends. It has nothing to do with how good you are.

There are some friends of mine, who are very experienced, very social hardcore players who usually exping straight to elite ls (guild/clan), skipping any medium lses - and they were successful any given time I saw them do it.
You can just make enough friends to get into ls on your way to cap - and those uber-eq is not the most important thing. Yes you need experience and knowledge - but it is not really that hard.

zuogehaomeng wrote:
Most players are good people, and most players are good players.

Most people are mediocre people and mediocre players. Really good people are rare as really good-playing people.
The whole point "we are the best" is wrong by itself as most people are not best, most people are mediocre (by definition of mediocre) and real best is only a very small portion of population.

zuogehaomeng wrote:
The people with the leadership control who get into these LSes and their opinions on who they want in control who gets into these LSes. Theres no computer vetting them, only humans vetting them therefore flawed. If you think for a second these LSes are all vetting based on whos good, then you must always think that politicians always make the right decisions, and the right man always gets the right job.

Yes, and this is why good and good-playing people have distinct advantage. Some of them even know politics (which is usual for old hardcore player) - if you are a friend of many/respected by many (especially leaders) and enemy of none in LS - what political decision will be made, what do you think?

Kachi wrote:
The bottom line is that there is just no good reason to have single events that run that long. I don't care how you split it, flip it, twist it... there's no inherent benefit to it. And that's something for which there is no adequate defense.

There is also social restrictions.

Little offtopic - WoW allow to stop raid at almost any time, as any boss batle is usually no longer than 30 minutes. Yet guilds that raids for 2 hours a day almost non-existant. Most guilds raid 3-5 hours a day (which is considered _reasonable_ length) and do not allow leave inbetween. Pretty much the same situation as in FFXI.
Why? Because 2 hours is just too little so guilds that raid 2 hour a day have no progression and eventually loose all players to more successful guilds with more lengthy raids. Why 3-5 hours? Because it's length of evening time (usually from 20:00 till 24:00) - it easy to organize this timeframe for almost anyone.

So there is some reasoning behind long raids - and it's much more convinient to have one event at time for raid window rather than 10.

Kachi wrote:
The problem is that if SE's playerbase were more responsible, they wouldn't even be able to experience a lot of the endgame content that SE created.

And most of them can't.
#199 Aug 16 2009 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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@phess

Please do not quote me. I refuse to argue with you.
#200 Aug 16 2009 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Yep, most of them can't enjoy it responsibly, so they enjoy it irresponsibly or not at all.

Great design. Case rested.

Well, I'm through with the "personal responsibility" crowd. People who think they live in a bubble and that blame is not only a singular, simply-applied label, but an effective solution to societal problems... well, they're idiots. Hopefully some day they'll learn better.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#201 Aug 16 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Default
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54 posts
LeadSalad wrote:
@phess
Please do not quote me. I refuse to argue with you.

Then don't speak dumb things.

You should bear responsibility for your words.
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