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Social Responsibility: An open letter to Square EnixFollow

#202 Aug 16 2009 at 1:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yep, most of them can't enjoy it responsibly, so they enjoy it irresponsibly or not at all.


Basically that's the only choice. You can't make SE change their game but you can tell them you don't approve of it by not giving them your money. Notice they didn't start changing ffxi until half of their playerbase quit.
#203 Aug 16 2009 at 2:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do bear resposibility for my words. That is not why I refuse to argue with you. I refuse to argue with you because you do not understand what anyone in this thread is saying. Often your replies have nothing to do with the statements that you are replying to. You do not even understand the context in which the terms "hardcore" and "casual" are being used for the purposes of this thread. I can forgive you for the fact that English is not you primary language. I do understand exactly what you are trying to say. You clearly cannot understand what everyone else is trying to say. This is why I refuse to argue with you. You are incapable of it.
#204 Aug 16 2009 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Strange how this conversation has gone.. Someone should make a world wide poll to see who really enjoyed spending hours in raids, camping NMs, to see the truth of the matter. When I had time on my hands I didn't mind the long hours. Now that I do not have that kind of time I realize I cannot do those hardcore gaming activities but I do not bemoan that SE, or any other company, should cater to me due to my life changes. There will always be people out there that love to put themselves through this kind of grind because it means something.

It's like being in labor - for hours you are in birth pains, you work even harder towards the end to deliver the baby and when it's all said and done you forget all that as you hold this new life in your hands.

SE will provide rewards appropriate to those who have little time to invest and those who have a great deal of time to invest. They have said this, verbatim.

I would agree that FFXI was/is a time sink. However, after dealing with the time sinks for an extended amount of time hubby and I had to stop in 2004 (among other reasons as well). Lets face it - mmorpgs suck the life out of people.. If you allow it.

Solution? Do not play mmorpgs if you know you have an addictive personality. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, forcing folks to play an mmo.
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#205 Aug 16 2009 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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I have no problem with people who have more time being able to accomplish more, although that kind of mechanic is usually reserved for games that require little actual skill.

But I don't see how anyone could disagree that it's better to have more, smaller goals than fewer, bigger goals, when those goals start to take more than a 2-3 hours.

I have to say that the labor analogy was funny, though not particularly convincing. I really don't think the extended pain makes the birth that much more rewarding. Not that I've ever given birth (lol) but I know women who have had relatively painless births. I think they would probably object to any insinuation that it was any less meaningful.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#206 Aug 16 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Well of course Kachi. And some women choose to have epidurals/spinals to ward off the pain of child birth. Other women believe such conveniences are harmful to the newborn and will, therefore, pass up the oppurtunity for the pain killer to be administered. The analogy is no less applicable, however. Those who have gone through the labor pains (and I know some women who were in labor for 2 freaking days) know what I speak of. Granted, gaming and labor pains (bringing a new life into this world) is nowhere near the same magnitude. If anything, the pains of FFXI pales incomparison.

I created an extreme analogy but one that can ring true to those who do not mind the grind.
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#207 Aug 16 2009 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Apricoth wrote:
I would agree that FFXI was/is a time sink. However, after dealing with the time sinks for an extended amount of time hubby and I had to stop in 2004


( '-')a


Quote:
Lets face it - mmorpgs suck the life out of people.. If you allow it.


They can, and that's what we want less of. That's why people now days want more casual MMORPG's, so they don't suck the life out of you so easily.

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Solution?


Make a less demanding game. Something people can accomplish goals in a reasonable amount of time on.

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Do not play mmorpgs if you know you have an addictive personality.


This is the exact thing a lot of MMORPG developers have realized, and why Square Enix keeps trying to drive home the point about this being a much more "Casual Friendly" MMORPG.

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No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, forcing folks to play an mmo.


No offense, but this is a bad analogy. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, but no one should have to feel obligated to stay on for long periods of time past when they would like to, to complete 90% of the content in a game. And as a business they shouldn't have the attitude of "if you ______ don't play it" because that only makes them lose customers. You want the maximum amount of customers in any business. That's why McDonalds started selling Salads and Coffee, even though they're a hamburger joint.

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#208 Aug 16 2009 at 4:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I suppose the question is back at square one - who is ultimately responsible for a person's behavior and how that person spends their time?
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#209 Aug 16 2009 at 4:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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What the company is responsible for is maximizing how much money they can earn from their customer base while providing quality game content that is appealing to various demographics. That is all that they are responsible for. They are not responsible for the behavior of their customer adherents (i.e. staying planted to their seat for hours on end through one game session while everything around them falls apart). This is my point.

You are correct in that the gaming company should create a marketable, playable, enjoyable game without compromising quality or integrity or making it so simplistic (I use this word loosely) you end up with a WoW clone - SE has advised they are in no way replicating aspects of WoW other than appealing a little more to the casual gamers. It just sounds like SE may be on the right road where this is concerned. It remains to be seen. I do know for a fact that if FFXIV ends up with content that requires the same amount of time sinkage I will not be able to continue in it. This is a choice I will make because I have control enough to not exhibit obsessive traits towards the game.
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#210 Aug 16 2009 at 4:14 AM Rating: Good
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Apricoth wrote:
Well I suppose the question is back at square one - who is ultimately responsible for a person's behavior and how that person spends their time?


I agree, when all is said and done at the end of the day, your real life should take precedence over any video game, and people should be responsible enough to know when enough is enough.

But it's still up to the developer to make a game where people don't so commonly have to make that sort of choice.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 5:17am by EndlessJourney
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#211 Aug 16 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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We're all responsible, like it or not. You can attempt to renounce your responsibility to the matter by blaming other people and claiming that it's a matter of personal responsibility, but when you can make a better decision and choose not to, you are responsible.

Why are parents responsible for their children's behavior? Children can make their own decisions too, but do we blame them for their mistakes? What about drug dealers? They're just providing a product, not doing any actual harm themselves.

The fact is that even if you're not the primary source of a problem, the one holding the smoking gun, it doesn't mean that you share no responsibility if you're a contributor to the problem. The axe may not fall on you for your negligence or apathy... maybe no one will slap cuffs on you, or fine you, or punish you in any way. That doesn't mean that you haven't made a bad decision, or that you haven't done anything wrong.

And people have known this for a long time. Our decisions affect one another. If SE decides to make a game that encourages players to play for long periods of time, then they are choosing to encourage all of the potential problems that go along with that kind of behavior. Should they stop making games altogether then? No, they should just keep in mind how the game they make will affect people's real lives and not cater to unhealthy bouts of play.

That's where the "it takes a village" mentality comes from. People who recognize that by taking some responsibility for one another even when we don't -have- to, we make things better for everyone. That person who might have played too long last night because that quest took longer than expected might not have fallen asleep behind the wheel on the way to work the next morning and killed your sister. Sure, it's all their fault, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't have been prevented by any number of other people if they had just exercised a little social responsibility. Blaming them for lacking personal responsibility does nothing but ensure that the next time you have the opportunity to prevent that kind of situation... you won't. You'll just be content to keep blaming people as the problems continue to pile up.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 5:27am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#212 Aug 16 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
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Apricoth wrote:
What the company is responsible for is maximizing how much money they can earn from their customer base while providing quality game content that is appealing to various demographics.


This is true, but when your largest demographic far outweighs the other faction, it is best to do all you can to please them. It is easy to apply enjoying aspects of a game to several demographics at once, but when you exclude one which is the largest to support a minority, they just end up shooting themselves in the foot. Especially when the majority has a more reasonable and realistic argument on their side.

What I'm saying is what I said earlier more or less. FFXI is the hardcore game, and Square Enix has assured us of this. But many people have quit FFXI over the years, and the population has dwindled down because of that hardcore aspect and many imbalances. It's also hard to keep new players coming in and actually staying because of this.

Square Enix plans to keep FFXI running and maintained for the absolute most hardcore crowd, while introducing a game for a newer generation of better educated people who want more casual play styles. As I said, I'm sure if you play FFXIV for many hours at once, and are hardcore at it, you will see and reap benefits. But excluding the casual players out of content -who Square Enix is trying to connect with so badly with- would be a bad move for them.

Casual players want a game where they can feel they have accomplished something great in it, not just "Well, I'm pretty good, but I'm not hardcore so I will never be ______ or never have ______" like it is in FFXI. This is what held FFXI back over the years, because it truly is in my opinion the best looking, feeling, and most creative MMORPG there is.
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#213 Aug 16 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Not cater to unhealthy bouts of play.


Take this phrase to the bank. This is the best way to put it honestly.

The rest of that post was very true as well. That is the frame of mind people including the developers need to have, to make a better and more quality game for everyone to enjoy, and promote better gaming habits.
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#214 Aug 16 2009 at 4:59 AM Rating: Default
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LeadSalad wrote:
I do bear resposibility for my words. That is not why I refuse to argue with you. I refuse to argue with you because you do not understand what anyone in this thread is saying. Often your replies have nothing to do with the statements that you are replying to. You do not even understand the context in which the terms "hardcore" and "casual" are being used for the purposes of this thread. I can forgive you for the fact that English is not you primary language. I do understand exactly what you are trying to say. You clearly cannot understand what everyone else is trying to say. This is why I refuse to argue with you. You are incapable of it.

I do understand what everyone here is talking about. I am just disagree with Kachi and Endless position. It's my right to have different opinion.

As Endless stated - the main reason behind his wish for short events, is just that he wants to be able attend every event (with his 2-hour schedule) and receive every reward - this is just selfish wish. And my selfish wish is that I hate 30 minutes events and enjoy long ones - so I want long events.

Moreover, I do know more about subject - as I former addict myself, unlike some theorycrafters here.
You can get addicted to a game with 20 minutes events as to with 4 hours event. The only real way to make game not addictive - is to make it unattractive to people - but this usually is a death to a game.
#215 Aug 16 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Phess, please just go away. Or at least just stop posting in this thread.
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#216 Aug 16 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Default
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Phess, please just go away. Or at least just stop posting in this thread.

You so hate the truth and voice of reason?
#217 Aug 16 2009 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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You so hate the truth and voice of reason?


So your different opinion is the truth? Interesting 'opinion' you got there.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#218 Aug 16 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
So your different opinion is the truth? Interesting 'opinion' you got there.

I didn't say that my opinion is truth.

But some facts that I provided were truth and very uncomfortable for Endless point of view.
I don't like beeing vocal and usually go and get some real facts for my opinion - it's my nature to be logical


Edited, Aug 16th 2009 9:12am by Phess
#219 Aug 16 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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And didn't say that my opinion is truth.

But some facts that I provided was true and very uncomfortable for Endless point of view.
I don't like beeing vocal and usually go and get some real facts for my opinion - it's my nature to be logical


Well, I didn't see any facts in that last post- so if you're done and just telling us your opinion (which we already know), there's no need to continue the discussion further.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#220 Aug 16 2009 at 5:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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As Endless stated - the main reason behind his wish for short events, is just that he wants to be able attend every event (with his 2-hour schedule) and receive every reward - this is just selfish wish.


This is not a selfish wish. A selfish wish would be if he said he could get the reward because of his 2 hour session and you couldn't because of your much longer session.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 9:52am by LeadSalad
#221 Aug 16 2009 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good
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Phess wrote:
As Endless stated - the main reason behind his wish for short events, is just that he wants to be able attend every event (with his 2-hour schedule) and receive every reward - this is just selfish wish. And my selfish wish is that I hate 30 minutes events and enjoy long ones - so I want long events.


Ahh, so it's selfish to want everyone to be able to access all of the content, instead of just a select group being able to access some content? That's selfish?

Okay, Gotcha.

And for the record? I doubt I will have, nor do I want every reward. I just want people the opportunity to work towards it if they are willing to invest the overall time, not just time in one sitting. I still think things should take time as far as days, weeks, months to obtain, just not in regularly scheduled 5 hour sittings.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 6:23am by EndlessJourney
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#222 Aug 16 2009 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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Really... I could have a relic if it weren't for Dynamis runs taking so long. I can put in the overall time, but some of them take like 6 hours after all is said and done. (*Not that the requirements for a relic aren't complete **********

There's nothing selfish about wanting all the content to be accessible by everyone. It sounds to me like you're the one being selfish. You are afterall the one who feels that they should be entitled to content that other people shouldn't.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 6:33am by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#223 Aug 16 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Default
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LeadSalad wrote:
This is not a selfish wish. A selfish wish would be if he said he could get the reward because of his 2 hour session and you couldn't because of your much longer session.

He want to see all content (and thus probably get benefits from it) - but don't want spend 4-hour on it - it is his selfish wish - because it directly comes with conflict with my selfish wish - I want 4-hour events.

Why you, Endless, and many of you so obsessivly want to deny my wish? You just don't even want to hear anything about it, just immediately respond that "i'm a stupid".

EndlessJourney wrote:
Ahh, so it's selfish to want everyone to be able to access all of the content, instead of just a select group being able to access some content? That's selfish?

Not _everyone_. Just people like you who can spend two hours and don't want spend four.

What if I have only 30 minutes per day to play (and I often do on weekdays) - then for "fairness" all events should be 15 minutes long (and 15 minutes reserved for gathering) - because I will not be able to see all content (and I cannot now, but i don't whine about it).

There is no such thing as "everyone", someone always get hurt (and "everyone" does not even attend end-game - look at census).

Kachi wrote:
There's nothing selfish about wanting all the content to be accessible by everyone. It sounds to me like you're the one being selfish. You are afterall the one who feels that they should be entitled to content that other people shouldn't.

It will hurt some people wishes - but you ignore this. This is what I call selfish.

Content for everyone (and by everyone you mean yourselves) means that there will be content only for you, but not everyone else. Those who like 15 minutes events will most probably in the same situation as it is now (they will not be able to go to most content) and those who like 4-hour events will be left in barren as there will be no content for them.

Problem is a bit more complex that just accessability to everyone, as everyone have different tastes.
#224 Aug 16 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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He want to see all content (and thus probably get benefits from it) - but don't want spend 4-hour on it - it is his selfish wish - because it directly comes with conflict with my selfish wish - I want 4-hour events.


You obviously haven't read all of my posts in this thread. I have already stated how both you and us and everyone else can get what they want out of the same content. Come back and quote from those posts.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:05am by LeadSalad
#225 Aug 16 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I can confidently say that 90% of players do NOT enjoy those events in FFXI. They -endure- them, because they -have- to to reach the goals they set. Maybe you've never actually been in a real endgame shell and don't know what it's like. Even the people who enjoy it only enjoy it in the way that you enjoy a job that you don't really like, but the "pay" and the people you work with make it bearable.


Stop just throwing out numbers that you have done absolutely no real research on.

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Little offtopic - WoW allow to stop raid at almost any time, as any boss batle is usually no longer than 30 minutes. Yet guilds that raids for 2 hours a day almost non-existant. Most guilds raid 3-5 hours a day (which is considered _reasonable_ length) and do not allow leave inbetween. Pretty much the same situation as in FFXI.


I dont know if this is true or not, because I have no experience with WoW. I do know people that play WoW and raid allday, but I don't know if thats just them or is that how the majority of WoW endgame just is. If it is true, it shows that people would rather progress faster then take baby steps, even if you could have stops in between. Their are many people that enjoy long events, and not just "endure" them. I like the idea of having the ability to stop for the casual people also, but I don't see how this would work for other endgame content outside of raids and instances.

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I will concede this point to you. Even a very casual player can find time to do the occasional long battle just for the sake of saying they've done it. As long as the drop can be sold or a similar item can be obtained by a different means, they might not even feel the need to do it. I don't think long battles should be in missions and quest that involve progression of the story though. There are other ways of making a battle difficult without making it last forever.


I agree that you can make a nm hard without making it a long fight. I am not saying that the casual nms should be "easy" and the hardcore nms should be "hard" in that sense. I am saying, that some people like long hard fights and their should be some open nms for them people. Not to mention, SE like making long fights anyway but thats another issue. I don't mean the casual nms that are able to be killed in 30mins should be "easy", they could be hard as well. But, their are people that enjoy long hard fights and their should be some content for them people. Whats wrong with a hardcore shell setting a day aside to try a huge accomplishment (a long hard nm), because they will eventually get tired of killing all the other nms in 20-30mins.

I agree these fights shouldn't be in things that progress the story, but they usually won't in ffxi. I am just talking about a few open nms like this, that the hardcore crowd can achieve to kill.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:13am by HocusP
#226 Aug 16 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Not _everyone_. Just people like you who can spend two hours and don't want spend four.

What if I have only 30 minutes per day to play (and I often do on weekdays) - then for "fairness" all events should be 15 minutes long (and 15 minutes reserved for gathering) - because I will not be able to see all content (and I cannot now, but i don't whine about it).

There is no such thing as "everyone", someone always get hurt (and "everyone" does not even attend end-game - look at census).


The less time an event takes, the less players will get 'hurt' by not being able to participate. You can do a 30min event just as well as a 4h event, but some casual guy can only do the 30min event and not the 4h one. The developers just need to find the correct balance.

If normal gaming session in the game lasts for less than an hour, then I expect the endgame events to last that long, too. FFXI was a slow game and everything took long time, and so did endgame events as well- but I don't except the same from FFXIV.



Edited, Aug 16th 2009 3:08pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#227 Aug 16 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
The less time an event takes, the less players will get 'hurt' by not being able to participate. You can do a 30min event just as well as a 4h event, but some casual guy can only do the 30min event and not the 4h one. The developers just need to find the correct balance.

It greatly depends what consider for "hurt" - usually (*my experience* usually) it is content for everyone - so everyone have content they like. And in this case if you do content for everyone tastes - nobody hurt. If you do only 30-minutes content - some will be hurt.

And for your argument - let's make all event 20 minutes cap - it will sure allow the most people attend it - but will it be so interesting for many, who used for longer events?

Hyanmen wrote:
If normal gaming session in the game lasts for less than an hour, then I expect the endgame events to last that long, too. FFXI was a slow game and everything took long time, and so did endgame events as well- but I don't except the same from FFXIV.

There were some contrary examples, but I think you will ignore them anyway.
#228 Aug 16 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I agree that you can make a nm hard without making it a long fight. I am not saying that the casual nms should be "easy" and the hardcore nms should be "hard" in that sense. I am saying, that some people like long hard fights and their should be some open nms for them people. Not to mention, SE like making long fights anyway but thats another issue. I don't mean the casual nms that are able to be killed in 30mins should be "easy", they could be hard as well. But, their are people that enjoy long hard fights and their should be some content for them people. Whats wrong with a hardcore shell setting a day aside to try a huge accomplishment (a long hard nm), because they will eventually get tired of killing all the other nms in 20-30mins.

I agree these fights shouldn't be in things that progress the story, but they usually won't in ffxi. I am just talking about a few open nms like this, that the hardcore crowd can achieve to kill.


An extremely long fight is probably something most casual players would not be interested in doing. If the drop is able to be sold or a similar item can be aquired by doing something else (crafted/quested/raid or instance drop) casual players wouldn't feel the need to do it. There would be a need to balance it so the effort is similar, but this could offer multiple means to the same end. I'm not against the being a handful of nms that are long battles entirely.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:30am by LeadSalad
#229 Aug 16 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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It greatly depends what consider for "hurt" - usually (*my experience* usually) it is content for everyone - so everyone have content they like. And in this case if you do content for everyone tastes - nobody hurt. If you do only 30-minutes content - some will be hurt.

And for your argument - let's make all event 20 minutes cap - it will sure allow the most people attend it - but will it be so interesting for many, who used for longer events?


Your kind will be hurt less, because you can still do all the 30min content, while if there were 4h content and 30min content that'd mean the guy with only 30mins could only do half the content available, while you could do everything. Which system would hurt the players more?

20min event may not be so 'interesting', but at least you can participate in it as much as the guy with 20mins to spare.

Quote:
There were some contrary examples, but I think you will ignore them anyway.


Well, talking down your opponent is a sure way to win an argument (sarcasm). Try me.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#230 Aug 16 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Stop just throwing out numbers that you have done absolutely no real research on.


lmao... real research? You're right. Let me consult the Bureau for MMORPG Research and Statistics and see what they have to say.

I've played the game a long *** time with a lot of people, and I've posted on these fora (as well as many other fora) for a long *** time and talked to a lot of people. And when I say that only about 10% of people actually enjoy those obscenely long events, I'm not just pulling random numbers out of my ***. If anything, I'm probably being generous in saying that a full 10% might actually like them, because frankly I can count the number of people who have verbalized as much on four fingers. So I guess the question is, do I know how more than 40 people feel on the matter?

Yes. Yes I do.

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It will hurt some people wishes - but you ignore this. This is what I call selfish.


I know, right? Sometimes I don't want people's wishes to be fulfilled because I'm selfish. Like when people want to take things from other people, or deprive them of something for no good reason. God, I'm such a ****.


This one time I totally burned down an orphanage. Those kids with their wanting parents and families. NO. ALL FOR ME.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#231 Aug 16 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
An extremely long fight is probably something most casual players would not be interested in doing. If the drop is able to be sold or a similar item can be aquired by doing something else (crafted/quested/raid or instance drop) casual players would feel the need to do it. There would be a need to balance it so the effort is similar, but this could offer multiple means to the same end. I'm not against the being a handful of nms that are long battles entirely.


True but its going to be a fact that casual players cant do or get everything, thats just how mmos are. The problem was casual players couldn't do "anything" in ffxi and that will be addressed of course. Their will be some content outside of instances that are primarily for the hardcore crowd.

As far as hardcore elements and achievements go, its not just rockband or ffxi or mmos. Many games have either hardcore achievements or an hardcore element somewhere in the game for the hardcore crowd. I mean even forza motorsports had race tracks (in the story) that took 5+ hours to complete. You couldn't save in the middle of a race either, but you could always just pause and leave your game on I guess. Now, I didn't do this part of the story, because I don't like racing that much, but their is a crowd that do. I just never unlocked them cars and moved on, I don't think its a big deal that some stuff you won't be able to do. As long as their is plenty of quality content and gear that you will be able to do.

Quote:
lmao... real research? You're right. Let me consult the Bureau for MMORPG Research and Statistics and see what they have to say.

I've played the game a long *** time with a lot of people, and I've posted on these fora (as well as many other fora) for a long *** time and talked to a lot of people. And when I say that only about 10% of people actually enjoy those obscenely long events, I'm not just pulling random numbers out of my ***. If anything, I'm probably being generous in saying that a full 10% might actually like them, because frankly I can count the number of people who have verbalized as much on four fingers. So I guess the question is, do I know how more than 40 people feel on the matter?

Yes. Yes I do.


You are pulling numbers out of your ***, when you talk for 90% of a playerbase. When in turn you might have talked to less then 1% of the entire playerbase. You was on one server and talked to maybe 1,000 (and thats being generous) people, when their is millions of players. When you bring percentages up, it is bs numbers when you have done no research. You say 90% because of a forum and your small amount of population you talked to on one server, give me a break. You havern't even met 10% of the whole playerbase, but yet you can talk for 90% of them. So you are saying 90%, when you are talking about 40 people are you serious. Lets see, millions of players vs 40 people and you got 90% out of that. Yes, 90% of the people you talk to would be accurate, but don't just say 90% like its a real statistic

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:43am by HocusP

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:49am by HocusP
#232 Aug 16 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Your reading comprehension just amazes me. Or maybe it's your math.

1) I was merely pointing out that if I knew of only 4 people who enjoyed it, that would be 10% of 40 people. I then stated pretty clearly that I know what a lot more than 40 people think of this issue.

2) Polls don't poll -everybody-. You get a representative sample, and extrapolate that data to determine trends. If you know 100 people, and only 1 of them likes something, odds are very good that only about 1% of people within that demographic like it also.

I don't see what the point would be of citing research to you if there were such a thing, since you don't seem capable of comprehending it anyway.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#233 Aug 16 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Your reading comprehension just amazes me. Or maybe it's your math.

1) I was merely pointing out that if I knew of only 4 people who enjoyed it, that would be 10% of 40 people. I then stated pretty clearly that I know what a lot more than 40 people think of this issue.

2) Polls don't poll -everybody-. You get a representative sample, and extrapolate that data to determine trends. If you know 100 people, and only 1 of them likes something, odds are very good that only about 1% of people within that demographic like it also.

I don't see what the point would be of citing research to you if there were such a thing, since you don't seem capable of comprehending it anyway.


Your reasoning amazes me, that is why polls are very inaccurate. Even if you knew 1,000 people that wouldn't change the fact that 1,000 vs millions means nothing. That is why surveys is the most commonly used way to reseach a huge crowd, and even surveys say they are not perfectly accurate.

Secondly, the main reason people go on forums in the first place is to say their dislikes, and see if anybody shares the same views. If you were perfectly fine with a game, then why would you even be on a forum in the first place. I played ffxi since na release and the only reason I ever went on allah, was to look up a recipe or a quest. I visit bg forums frequently to see information and their forums rarely have negative things on them anyway. So that combined with the first thing I said, makes your stat very inaccurate. I can say (for example) I know 4 people that like it and 1 person that don't (you), that doesn't mean 80% like and 20% don't. That just means 80% I know like it and you need to word it that way, instead of talking for 90% of the playerbase like thats an accurate stat.

Quote:
I can confidently say that 90% of players do NOT enjoy those events in FFXI.


Remarks like this is retarded when you only know what maybe less then 1% of the playerbase actually like. Using people you know and then making that sound like the playerbase is misleading and very inaccurate. If the numbers can vary based on people you know (as in my stats can be vice versa from yours) then its very inaccurate. Inaccurate numbers are bs numbers, and that is what you have. Real stats do not vary, if 60% of WoW subscribers is from Asia, then that is a fact and can be checked on a chart. If your numbers can vary based on circle of friends, then thats a false stat and will be treated as such.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 12:26pm by HocusP


Edited, Aug 16th 2009 12:30pm by HocusP
#234 Aug 16 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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It's pretty unrealistic to say that a casual player won't ever have a day where they could put in several hours. Take myself for example, if I had the day off, my kids were in school, and it's raining outside I could probably put in sometime that day. In that sense casual players did get to experience endgame events in ffxi. They just couldn't do them often enough to get any sort of reward out of it. I don't think it's that bad to have a few nms that take 3 or 4 hours to kill. It's when it becomes "this is the only way to get this item that nothing else in the game compares to and you have to do it 50 times to get it to drop" (maybe a little exaggeration there) that I begin to take issue with it.
#235 Aug 16 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't try to lecture me on research and statistics, because I'm going to trust my textbooks, professors, and masters degree over your layman's input. I know more about the validity of surveys and polls than you probably ever will, and your entire argument amounts to little more than *********

Nevermind that we're not even talking about polls, but the impressions of regular players in the game. So it should suffice to say that these are the impressions of people who like the game enough to keep playing it, which means that if the majority of them don't like it, then it's pretty ****-poor.

If I included people that had already quit the game, it'd probably be closer to 99%.

And I'd be surprised if you know 4 people who enjoy having to do 4 hour events. But then I'd honestly be surprised if you know 4 people.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#236 Aug 16 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
It's pretty unrealistic to say that a casual player won't ever have a day where they could put in several hours. Take myself for example, if I had the day off, my kids were in school, and it's raining outside I could probably put in sometime that day. In that sense casual players did get to experience endgame events in ffxi. They just couldn't do them often enough to get any sort of reward out of it. I don't think it's that bad to have a few nms that take 3 or 4 hours to kill. It's when it becomes "this is the only way to get this item that nothing else in the game compares to and you have to do it 50 times to get it to drop" (maybe a little exaggeration there) that I begin to take issue with it.


This is when it gets tricky, and I agree with everything you just said. The only thing that makes a player casual is the amount of time he/she plays. So in a sense, for that day the casual player was not casual anymore and was hardcore for that day. So in a sense, it still required you to become hardcore in order to do it, and the truely casual person (who is casual all the time) still wouldn't be able to do it. I also agree that hardcore items shouldn't be way up here in tier, and the casual items be way down their. Then it gets tricky again, because SE has to give hardcore players a reason to conquer the long hard stuff as well. Game developing is not easy, and I agree with you to a sense.

Quote:
Don't try to lecture me on research and statistics, because I'm going to trust my textbooks, professors, and masters degree over your layman's input. I know more about the validity of surveys and polls than you probably ever will, and your entire argument amounts to little more than bullsh*t.

Nevermind that we're not even talking about polls, but the impressions of regular players in the game. So it should suffice to say that these are the impressions of people who like the game enough to keep playing it, which means that if the majority of them don't like it, then it's pretty ****-poor.

If I included people that had already quit the game, it'd probably be closer to 99%.

And I'd be surprised if you know 4 people who enjoy having to do 4 hour events. But then I'd honestly be surprised if you know 4 people.


You know nothing after you make remarks like what I have quoted. If you think people you met and people on forums are valid enough to talk for more then 5% of the playerbase you again know nothing. Not to mention the Japanese people that count for a huge part of the playerbase, and I doubt you know how the majority of them feel. The people that quit may have quit for a multitude of reasons, and that wouldn't be accurate either. I know tons of people that was happy in endgame, and i'm sorry its so hard to imagine that these people do exist. People that don't have A.D.D and have to be constantly doing different things within a game. If you think the only reason ffxi still survives is because people just "endure" it then you are fooling yourself. EQ was highly successful with a grind type system and so was ffxi because people actually like it.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 12:42pm by HocusP

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 12:58pm by HocusP
#237 Aug 16 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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This thread has evolved nicely ^^
Let’s make a bet. I bet that we will see 30 min contents for casuals, BUT we will also see encounters that will last for several hours and requires you to dedicate several hours in one session to progress. Anyone agrees?


Edited, Aug 16th 2009 1:19pm by Maldavian
#238 Aug 16 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
mao... real research? You're right. Let me consult the Bureau for MMORPG Research and Statistics and see what they have to say.


I lol'd on this one. Thank you for the laugh. I wish there was an mmorpg research & statistics department. <sigh>

This intresting really. Everyone wants access to the endgame content like everyone else - casual and hardcore. Okay, I cannot fault anyone for that. I would be hard pressed to see the casual gamer have access to the hardcore gamers loot table. This is incomprehensible to me. I will be a casual gamer myself and sure do not want access to that loot. It devalues the person's time that spent x amount of time to get it through raids, extremely hard quest lines, etc.

Content accessible to everyone? Within reason. All loot tables accessible to everyone, no.
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#239 Aug 16 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This intresting really. Everyone wants access to the endgame content like everyone else - casual and hardcore. Okay, I cannot fault anyone for that. I would be hard pressed to see the casual gamer have access to the hardcore gamers loot table. This is incomprehensible to me. I will be a casual gamer myself and sure do not want access to that loot. It devalues the person's time that spent x amount of time to get it through raids, extremely hard quest lines, etc.


I agree with you to certain extent but it's all conditional. Just because something takes 5 hours to do something in one session doesn't make it more difficult than something that can be done in 5 separate 1 hour sessions. I agree you should get a reward proportional to time spent but I don't see why a player should get the shaft for putting in the same amount of time and effort but did it over a perion of time and not all at once.
#240 Aug 16 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I agree with you to certain extent but it's all conditional. Just because something takes 5 hours to do something in one session doesn't make it more difficult than something that can be done in 5 separate 1 hour sessions. I agree you should get a reward proportional to time spent but I don't see why a player should get the shaft for putting in the same amount of time and effort but did it over a perion of time and not all at once.


I can agree with you on this - if a quest line takes 5 hours total to complete, person A has limited time to play so they do increments in that quest line over a period of a week or more, dependent on their schedule. Person B has considerable more time on their hands and can do it all in one sitting. End result is person A & B have access to the same quest reward having put in the same amount of time required. I have no problem with that and I do not think anyone's suggesting the loot should be determined on how long a person actually completes said quest (or mission for that matter).

I do have a problem when it comes to raids. Granted those days of hours upon hours of raiding a single mob are stale dated at best and someone has already mentioned that a great deal of people are a bit sick of it. There should be some happy medium for those hardcore gamers to remain hardcore without giving up more of their lives to the game and still enjoy the game, not viewing it as a chore or another job. I certainly hope SE has addressed this and continues to address it.

In light of this, this still goes back to my original comment - quests aside, raid content: sure have a gander at the mob, participate in the fight but if you do not stick around for the duration you will not have access to that loot table and should not.

I think SE will have FFXIV story-centric more than ever, moreso than FFXI. This is just my opinion. The NM/HNM raids could be treated as the icing on the cake and goes without saying that the casuals (like me) will not/should not feel entitled to the items. Missions, quests and all that will result in the same loot table in the end (unless they drastically change something in there somewhere) as it befits that portion of the game and it would behoove SE to do otherwise.
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#241 Aug 16 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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It's that the rewards system is mostly flawed. I don't expect an ubber drop in a casual half hour - 1 hour session of "endgame". I really don't expect anything since an hour caters to me. However a system of building points would be great like how FFXI later on went to. The time you contribute equals how good of a reward you can choose from.

The problem with those 4-6 hour sessions. Often it takes a great amount of players and in the end it's not worth the time to just be, "a team player", over and over with no reward. How many times you attend, leader imposed point systems, drama. Higher time based endgame needs to be regulated by a point system server side and more drops. Not just the ubber 1%-5% chance of drop over 5 runs. The rewards need to be spread out to cover all those that participate and every type of possible drop chance/uncommon-common. Often it's more about favortism. If a system of points are introduced and displayed beside the players names of those who enter the instance it would clear tons of drama up. And a lotting system based on points that resets (lotting priviledges) after "winning" an ubber item. Leaving lotting drama up to the leader is the worst idea ever. If you have the points you can lot. If you already have that item in inventory/equipped/previously sold within X amount of time, your chance of lotting would be close to no chance at all with winning.

Those who spend more time have a greater chance of ubber reward. While those that spend less can still over time recieve a kick *** item that when it's all said and done... was worth it. All in all I would like to see a point system regulated by SE (server side). If/when an item drops it gets put into a "treasury". When the instance is done everyone goes into the treasury phase of lotting. If you don't have the points for that item you can't lot. If you do have the chance to lot and you win. Your points are deducted and it would be possible to lot on more then one item... if you have the points. However there would be an unseen % factor based on rarity lotting. Win a extremely rare item lot and the chances at winning another are slim to non. Rarity lot % would gradually increase based on time of participation in events. Those who spend longer time would achieve that goal faster. Those that don't have the time can still reach that goal but it would take longer.

Everybody has a chance and it's related to the time you put in.
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#242 Aug 16 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
quote]There were some contrary examples, but I think you will ignore them anyway.

Well, talking down your opponent is a sure way to win an argument (sarcasm). Try me.[/quote]
You really ready for ban bet? *kidding*
If you are _that_ ready - first question (and only reasonable, argumented answer are accepted) - WoW, WAR and most of new age MMO apply same mechanics - simple gring to cap, simple starters level instance, stupid time-sinks insane-hard-to-achieve end-game instances. Simple questions to you - WHY?

Kachi wrote:
lI've played the game a long *** time with a lot of people, and I've posted on these fora (as well as many other fora) for a long *** time and talked to a lot of people.

I started to play massive online games back in '98.
Its eleven years already - it's sure a hella lot of time - to make a think and reconsider everything.

Kachi wrote:
And when I say that only about 10% of people actually enjoy those obscenely long events, I'm not just pulling random numbers out of my ***. If anything, I'm probably being generous in saying that a full 10% might actually like them, because frankly I can count the number of people who have verbalized as much on four fingers. So I guess the question is, do I know how more than 40 people feel on the matter?

And 85% just don't care. The most people mistake here is to think that there are no people behind them. And actually there are the many. 5% of people who cannot stick to neither majotiry is unsatisfied b*tches - with the same behaviour.

I know that i will be unpopular. But at least i will drive people struggle against biased opinions.
You have your right for opinion - either am I and everyone else (beside I'm beeing stupid russian those everyone knows have no personal freedom).

PS. What happens with your attitude to "apologize"? I post nothing of importance to change your opinion, you know...

Maldavian wrote:
Let’s make a bet. I bet that we will see 30 min contents for casuals, BUT we will also see encounters that will last for several hours and requires you to dedicate several hours in one session to progress. Anyone agrees?

Count me in.

Displace wrote:
Those who spend more time have a greater chance of uber reward.

Many people here just want a *feeling* of it, not an associated cost. It hard and painfull (aside from adrenaline rush from excited state for beeing cool) to be "best in line" - and people simply do not understand the cost related.



Edited, Aug 16th 2009 5:50pm by Phess
#243 Aug 16 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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I got a better idea, how about the game actually be based on skill and not what gear your wearing?
Gear should be easy to get, and any casual player should be able to obtain it. Make the skill the hard part. I suppose you will still need some sort of reward for your skill but instead of gear you could have some sort of ranking system or pvp for that or achievements.

I don't see why gear has to be the entire game like ffxi is... I mean I could see maybe something like relic weapons but nothing much more than that.

Really being hardcore in FFXI just means you don't have a life and spend way too much time on a video game...and I went through that myself. Id like to see FF14 do something different. And the reward for spending more time than others doesnt need to be access to content, rather they should have some other reward like I said above with a ranking system, pvp to prove your skill, or some sort of achievement system. None of these restrict content but gives honor to the player for accomplishing something that will surely be respected among the other players.
#244 Aug 16 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I got a better idea, how about the game actually be based on skill and not what gear your wearing?
Gear should be easy to get, and any casual player should be able to obtain it. Make the skill the hard part. I suppose you will still need some sort of reward for your skill but instead of gear you could have some sort of ranking system or pvp for that or achievements.

I don't see why gear has to be the entire game like ffxi is... I mean I could see maybe something like relic weapons but nothing much more than that.


You realize that this is an mmorpg right, and not a mmofps. Their are certain qualities that comes along with making a role playing game. Not to mention, their are certain qualities that comes along with making a FF role playing game.

That being said, yes skill should play a big part in the game. My question to you is, what exactly is "skill" in a videogame? Everybody knows what it is to a sense, but no one can pinpoint exactly what it is. Now, how do you make a game around something you cannot pinpoint? For example (ffxi example), blm solo is stand far away, then nuke, then sleep, then get far again and repeat. That to me is common sense to stand far away from the mob and sleep him and not "skill". Same as tanking, or anything else that can be put in a game. I could play every job in ffxi and be great at it because its a game. Now, I cannot go out and play every sport and be great at it because skill is easy to pinpoint in sports and real life. Gear and role playing games go hand in hand, and their will have to be a reward.


SE said PvP will take a form similar to ffxi's pvp, so I doubt what your saying here will happen. This is not a first person shooter, its a role playing game. Their will probally be some form of ranking system in the game, but not as the only reward for content.
#245 Aug 16 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think its unreasonable for any player to be upset that endgame takes somewhere between 3-5 hours for events.
I also don't think its unreasonable for players who want to play three hours a day.

I have a feeling that in FFXIV you may have to spend 5 hours to get a certain in game item, but you can do it 30 minutes a day for 10 days. That way the "Elite" that play way too much can get their crap fast, and the casual can still fully experience the game at their own pace.

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#246 Aug 16 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I don't see why gear has to be the entire game like ffxi is


Quote:
You realize that this is an mmorpg right, and not a mmofps.



Hmm.

Before the ilk of expansions, and new content, and fancy graphics, reaching the highest level was what drove people onward. It's not that it was a particularly superior way of motivating people, it's just that massively anything was a very new concept. There was only single-player games to go on, and single player games had an end.

That's why it's called Endgame, because that used to be it.
And that's why Grind and Timesinks were born, because the longer it takes someone to get to the End of the Game, the longer they play.

Everything you've come to define as Hardcore MMOs is only like that because Endgame used to be The Carrot.

The advent of Casual Gaming was a risky commercial venture, removing the previously profitable Grind and Timesinks in order to become accessible to a wider P(l)ayerbase, sacrificing a playerbase of longevity for one of size. For better or worse, that movement killed reaching Endgame as The Carrot. Enter shiny new content, new armor, new weapons, new areas, and the invention of the Expansion Pack. Nowadays, The Carrot is Access, The Carrot is Silly E-***** Prizes, The Carrot is Armor.

Armor used to be how you obtained the Endgame Carrot, now Endgame is now how you obtain the Armor Carrot.

But let's not kid ourselves, The Carrot at it's heart is none of these things, much less Armor so singularly it has to be such a definitive force in the genre. The Carrot at it's heart is and has always been Power and Prestige.

That can take on any form we please.


Edited, Aug 16th 2009 10:07pm by Zemzelette
#247 Aug 16 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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To Phess:

Quote:
He want to see all content (and thus probably get benefits from it) - but don't want spend 4-hour on it - it is his selfish wish - because it directly comes with conflict with my selfish wish - I want 4-hour events.


I know you seem to have been arguing on 'my side of the aisle' so far... but really you aren't. I think you just might be the only person posting who WANTS 4-hour events.

My argument is that regardless of how long events take there will always be perks to being the person who has 10 hours to play, and certain players will want to emulate that because they want to be the best at the game. It doesn't matter how long a game takes to accomplish something for these people, there will always be another goal unachieved that they can continue playing for. That is just part of MMO design, if there wasn't something to constantly achieve, then there would be no further point in playing and the company would have failed.

I think almost everyone here hopes that there are no more 4 hour events or 2 hours of LFP. Aside from Phess.

Just because it only takes 30 minutes to finish an event doesn't mean that players will log out after the event. Perhaps they will just keep running the same event for more gear, or run as many as they can before they collapse.

Again, nothing a company does can regulate 'social responsibility', and neither can a government. They can just set penalties for being irresponsible.



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#248 Aug 16 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Default
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to Kachi:

Quote:
Yep, most of them can't enjoy it responsibly, so they enjoy it irresponsibly or not at all.

Great design. Case rested.

Well, I'm through with the "personal responsibility" crowd. People who think they live in a bubble and that blame is not only a singular, simply-applied label, but an effective solution to societal problems... well, they're idiots. Hopefully some day they'll learn better.



If blame is not only a singular, simply-applied label, and is NOT an effective solution to societal problems...

(Which I agree with)

Then why should the blame lie on the shoulders of the game designers? Why should the responsibility lie on them to make society more responsible? The truth is that it is impossible for them to do so, and only accepting personal responsibility on the individuals behalf is a solution.

There have always been irresponsible people, and there always will be.
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#249 Aug 16 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
Shazaamemt wrote:
or 2 hours of LFP.


Ohh Man! That reminds me of the good o'l days, standing around for 6-10 hours a day with 0 invites, for days on end. Yep, I use to be addicted like mad and will fully admit it, and luckily I broke away from my addiction. But I do remember playing for weeks, as many others do, standing around just looking for party.

Before things like FOV and Level Sync were added, just standing around for hours a day, days a week, then finally getting a party you honestly did feel like "There's no way I'm leaving this till it disbands". Haha, those were the days, but I seriously doubt that's even up for discussion. Anyone with even a tiny fraction of their brain working wouldn't want that.

And what about standing around, shouting for missions or quests for hours and hours on end? Haha.

Shazaamemt wrote:

Again, nothing a company does can regulate 'social responsibility', and neither can a government. They can just set penalties for being irresponsible.


This. And even at that, even if you aren't penalized, just make it to where if you are the irresponsible type you aren't some how leagues ahead of others who can't play 10 hours a day. As I said, I want a game where casual folk can actually feel like they are something great, instead of just wishing they were.
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#250 Aug 16 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:


This. And even at that, even if you aren't penalized, just make it to where if you are the irresponsible type you aren't some how leagues ahead of others who can't play 10 hours a day. As I said, I want a game where casual folk can actually feel like they are something great, instead of just wishing they were.


Agreed, that is a matter of the lack of content and lack of various armors available in FFXI. There might still be relic weapons that only 1-2% can get, but you shouldn't care as much if you don't have one.

But that all has to do with what the individual thinks it takes to be 'great' and what goals they set. If your goal in FFXI was to kill promathia once, then you felt great even if it was a year after someone else did. If your goal was to obtain a full set of relic +1 gear and a relic shield and sword... then you were just setting yourself up for disappointment.

But that person who plays 10 hours a day will still be 8 hours a day ahead of the person who only can play 2 hours. They will still be ahead. They will still have more jobs and better gear. They will have completed the new missions on the day they were released.



Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:25pm by Shazaamemt

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 11:27pm by Shazaamemt
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Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#251 Aug 16 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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@HocusP
I will concede that I don't know how JP players feel about the issue, but that was the only decent point you made, and not a strong enough one to stand on its own.

Quote:
That being said, yes skill should play a big part in the game. My question to you is, what exactly is "skill" in a videogame? Everybody knows what it is to a sense, but no one can pinpoint exactly what it is. Now, how do you make a game around something you cannot pinpoint?


And that you apparently don't even know what skill is in a videogame speaks to the general quality of your arguments. Pinpointing skill is easy. It varies from game to game, but generally there will be elements of dexterity and strategy. These are the two main skills on which all videogames are founded (multiplayer can add a social dimension). They can be broken down further into various other elements. For example, dexterity can be broken down into reflex, timing, and aim, among other things.

Honestly, how can you claim to have any valuable insight about videogames and then admit that you don't know exactly what skill is?

Quote:

Then why should the blame lie on the shoulders of the game designers? Why should the responsibility lie on them to make society more responsible? The truth is that it is impossible for them to do so, and only accepting personal responsibility on the individuals behalf is a solution.


No one ever said that all the blame should lie squarely on the game designers. Do you know what a strawman argument is? Look it up.

I already explained why they had a responsibility to do so. Your assertion that it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to do so is probably THE SINGLE MOST RIDICULOUS THING THAT HAS BEEN SAID IN THIS THREAD. People have already described a number of ways they could do so.

Whatever. I think I'll just explain this to my iPod. It understands what I'm saying just as well, but the noise it makes is a lot more pleasant.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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