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Social Responsibility: An open letter to Square EnixFollow

#252 Aug 17 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed, that is a matter of the lack of content and lack of various armors available in FFXI. There might still be relic weapons that only 1-2% can get, but you shouldn't care as much if you don't have one.


most people would call this broken.
#253 Aug 17 2009 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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LeadSalad wrote:
Quote:
Agreed, that is a matter of the lack of content and lack of various armors available in FFXI. There might still be relic weapons that only 1-2% can get, but you shouldn't care as much if you don't have one.


most people would call this broken.


If we compare to WoW hard mode 25 men, that only a few % can complete, how can you say that it is broken? This kind of logical thinking is really crazy. You can't argue by saying "Everything that can't be obtainable by a "casual" player or someone who can only play for 30 min /day is "broken".
#254 Aug 17 2009 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Can they not complete it because they lack the skill, or because they lack obscene amounts of time?

See, a relic might be hard enough to get from doing the fights required to complete the quest, but the real challenge is in collecting all that currency, which takes an eternity, and the runs themselves take hours at a time.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#255 Aug 17 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually if the LS got the skill, gathering the Currency for Relic Weapons is not that big of a deal. Dropluck can give you like the first 2 Stages in one Dynamis run. Last stage is time consuming, but if doing Dynamis 2/week and with normal droprate you can get it done in 1-2 month, which is totally fine IMO, as Relic Weapons were supposed to be "Hardcore" from the very beginning.

But the problem is, most LS's don't even care for Relic Weapons, they use Currency as money gathering option to maintain costs for further Hour Glasses etc.

Other than that, gathering Currency got one problem that needs to be discussed/decided right from the start. Who will get the "priority" etc?
Many people will feel "left behind" just because they won't get currency for their Relics first or w/e.

If such a system should be in FFXIV, I will take care of using currency, or w/e it will be in FFXIV right from the start to fund Relic Weapons for the LS to get the LS further ahead...that's all that counts for me, getting the LS ahead as a whole, not individual players only.

PS: Sure Dynamis takes lots of time, but well...Relic Weapons weren't implemented for "casuals" from the start...it's totally fine to have content not everyone can access...hardcore players need something to work towards as well.
And there is nothing wrong with having Hardcore Content. WoW Hardmodes are a nice example for that. Although Hard Modes in WoW doesn't take MORE time, just more skill to get them done, which probably ends up in more time, as you need to get the strategy down...but with skillfull players it takes not more than a week to get the more challenging HardModes done(I can say that because for example we killed Mimiron HM after 3 evenings of trying and Freya after 2 evenings, but we started HM pretty late though...although we also killed KJ before the 30% nerf came out etc...so we were pretty hardcore for WoW Guild-matters)

Well my point is...Blizzard knows that there are differetn type of players and to get everyone satisfied is the best, though hardest thing to do. The problem is, people who doesn't have the time, or skill to attend that HardCore Content, need to get over it and realise that if they lack the time/skill that they can't do everything the game offers, thats normal and there is nothing broken about that. Think of it as FFXIV would be Offline and there is that one optinal Boss, where preparation for the fight takes forever...someone who doesn't have the time/skill to get it done won't get it done and that's it, SE won't say "hey everyone should be able to beat it no matter what and make it beatable in 2min with 5min preperation" THAT would seem broken to me.

I can give you one example that fits pretty well IMO...I don't know if anyone knows the Old SNES Game "Tiny Toons Wild and Wacky Sports"...once you beat that game completely you were given the opportunity to walk Marathons with your favorite Toon...there have been different lengths of marathons, for example 100m, 200m, 400m etc and the longest was 40KM!!! I started doing that 40km thing and all in all it took me 4 HOURS!!! 4h of straight tapping A and B as fast as I could...that's Hardcore IMO for such a "child-game"...though people won't say omg thats broken...they just said I won't do it...thats what they think of when playing MMORPGs...there is content that's just not meant for them, but they can't stand not having that item, someone else can get, just because he got more time...well but somehow people who got the time want to have their uniqure rewards for that...it's not the perfect way to deal with that...well but what else should you do?
#256 Aug 17 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
And that you apparently don't even know what skill is in a videogame speaks to the general quality of your arguments. Pinpointing skill is easy. It varies from game to game, but generally there will be elements of dexterity and strategy. These are the two main skills on which all videogames are founded (multiplayer can add a social dimension). They can be broken down further into various other elements. For example, dexterity can be broken down into reflex, timing, and aim, among other things.

Honestly, how can you claim to have any valuable insight about videogames and then admit that you don't know exactly what skill is?


Everything you say that is "skill", I call it common sense. A person that is a good gamer, is usually good at any game he/she plays, but have you ever wondered why? Its because you are playing a game and it is not rocket science. It usually takes a gamer less then 30 minutes, and he/she are great at it. Now try that in the real world and see if you can be great at many different sports in 30 minutes. Common sense, an understanding of the game, and good hand-eye coordination is all it takes to be great at a game. Rather that be killing people in a fps, tanking fafnir, or playing madden.

You said it vary from game to game and that is true but lets just say what is skill in an rpg. Everybody knows what skill is to a sense, but cannot pinpoint it in a video game. Much less an rpg, you get hit then you heal yourself, he took 2 shadows off then recast utsuemi, you want hate then use abilities. Thats pretty much common sense, an understanding for the game, and good hand-eye coordination (also known as timing). Many people can pick up any game and be good at it (many different genres), right away. Most games I can just pick up and be great at it within the first hour. I don't think that means i'm so "skilled" at the game, but that its a game and once you understand how to play, the rest just falls in place. Many people cannot just pick up a sport or a profession and be good at it right away.

Ps: The whole argument made sense, you are using forums and speaking like that is valid for the whole playerbase. The fact is people that is happy with the game don't need to go on forums in the first place. Not to mention how inaccurate that number is when compared to the entire playerbase. Not to mention, you trying to exclude japanese players from the playerbase, when its made by a japanese company. It was the most inaccurate argument I have ever seen, then you try to cover it up by saying, "I'm going to listen to my professors". If any professors tell you that hundreds of people (if that) is valid enough to talk for millions of players then either they need to lay off the bottle, or quit their job.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 12:02pm by HocusP
#257 Aug 17 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Default
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You are right in the basic...common sense is the most vital thing about being "good" in a game, but I can also assure you that there are exceptions and not to few of them indeed xD

I can give you an example from my rl friends...a friend of mine is like really good, and I mean really good in WoW...but he sucks big time in FFXI.
Common sense is the big word here as well...while common sense itself should be general, there is only that far you're common sense can take you xD
His common sense was enough to get the game mechanics down in WoW, but not enough to get it down in FFXI...
Other than that there is "skill" and "skill" in a game. You can have skill while playing the game, but skill doesn't show in doing your job right or do what's expected from your role, but how you react and how you play when situations forces you to get out of the "usual" role of your job and how you deal with that. IMO that's really showing skill, opinions might differ, but that's my meaning of having skill^^

Didn't want to agree or disagree with you, just stating in general.

edit: Forgot to mention...common sense itself is only helping towards getting the game mechanics down, but other than that you need to know the game mechanics at first.
WoW doesn't require much information other than the one provided in the game, to be really good in FFXI you need to inform yourself outside of the game, at least that is what I'm thinking.

PS: The reason I quit FFXI and started playing WoW sometime after was mainly the reason, because you were able to schedule ALL events, while in FFXI things like Kings and Ground HNMs were not able to be scheduled, other than day by day, which really sucked over time.
I for myself didn't mind playing Dynamis for 4 hours, because I KNEW right from the start when it's going to start, not just 1 day ahead, but like on a set schedule. WoW raids were taking like 5h (6PM-11PM) 3-5 days a week...the big difference is plain, you know your schedule and can think ahead if you are able to attend, or if you're not...that's the only thing I really liked WoW more than FFXI though xD Therefore I would appreciate "instance-based" Bosses in FFXIV...that way you would be able to schedule your events longtime!

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 4:22pm by Shezard
#258 Aug 17 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You are right in the basic...common sense is the most vital thing about being "good" in a game, but I can also assure you that there are exceptions and not to few of them indeed xD

I can give you an example from my rl friends...a friend of mine is like really good, and I mean really good in WoW...but he sucks big time in FFXI.
Common sense is the big word here as well...while common sense itself should be general, there is only that far you're common sense can take you xD
His common sense was enough to get the game mechanics down in WoW, but not enough to get it down in FFXI...
Other than that there is "skill" and "skill" in a game. You can have skill while playing the game, but skill doesn't show in doing your job right or do what's expected from your role, but how you react and how you play when situations forces you to get out of the "usual" role of your job and how you deal with that. IMO that's really showing skill, opinions might differ, but that's my meaning of having skill^^

Didn't want to agree or disagree with you, just stating in general.


Thats true, I know people that sucked in ffxi because of common sense also. One guy actually quit and said ffxi was too hard and went to WoW. Now I dont know how well he did in WoW, but thats irrelevant anyway. Just because a game requires more common sense, I don't think that necessarily means more skill. The way I view skill is something special, and not something that everybody should have (keyword being should). I agree that their is some skill in your reactions also, but that also falls in understanding the game. If you get aggro'd then you sleep it (assuming you can), and things like that is some common sense and some understanding the game.

The meaning of "skill" changes from game to game and person to person. I think you can make things "harder" but that don't always necessarily mean more skill either. It could mean more failed attempts, more brainstorming before you found a strategy that worked. I don't think your skill level changed at all, you just found a winning strategy. It don't usually go, we was good skilled, but it took great skill to win. It usually goes, we was using a bad strategy and we needed a good one to win. Even if the strategy is not totally thrown out, but is slightly tweaked. I don't think kirin going from 2hours average (in the old times), to 2mins now is "skill". Its just better gear and a different strategy (meleeburn). That goes for a lot of things.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 12:36pm by HocusP
#259 Aug 17 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Default
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Shazaamemt wrote:
To Phess:

I know you seem to have been arguing on 'my side of the aisle' so far... but really you aren't. I think you just might be the only person posting who WANTS 4-hour events.

It's not exactly that I want 4 hour event because I'm a *********. It's just happens that 4 hour is near-optimal timeframe for raids (it fits nicely into evening time) and it's widely used. So i want events that will fill this window completely, as having a break inbetween is a huge headache and very inconvinient - you need to relocate for other event (which takes time) and people get very irresponsible between events (a lot of spam and sudden afks).

Principially, i don't mind if events will be split in parts, like dynamis is not 3 hour straight but rather 2 part-area each for 1.5 hour with possibility to go out inbetween and continue later - if both parts will be in the same place and you can go from first part directly to second.
#260 Aug 17 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually if the LS got the skill, gathering the Currency for Relic Weapons is not that big of a deal. Dropluck can give you like the first 2 Stages in one Dynamis run. Last stage is time consuming, but if doing Dynamis 2/week and with normal droprate you can get it done in 1-2 month, which is totally fine IMO, as Relic Weapons were supposed to be "Hardcore" from the very beginning.


That's more a matter of finding a LS that is willing to get YOU a relic. Yeah, it's pretty easy if you have a group of people willing to hand you a relic on a silver platter (even though as you point out, it still takes several weeks).

Quote:

Everything you say that is "skill", I call it common sense.


Well, that makes sense, because YOU'RE RETARDED. Seriously, how old are you? 12? 13?

Frankly I just don't have the time to pick apart all of the things that are flat out wrong with what you said. And I'm not sure I've ever seen such a pitiful attempt at argument as I have from you.

And lol@ you thinking I would actually ask professors about statistical applications over a video game. fyi, I don't go to college anymore, though I'm looking at starting my PhD soon.

I'll say this though... if you're at a point where a game is "common sense" such that you can no longer pinpoint the skills, your game is TOO EASY. (And yes, FFXI was way too easy, aside from the organizational skills and time commitment, which, you know, are a BLAST.)
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#261 Aug 17 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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SE does not care what you write on forums. They don't care what's best for the customer. They don't care unless it impacts their bottom line. They're a dinosaur corporation that hasn't embraced the internet and the concept of customer service yet, and probably never will, because the legions of fanboys and insane profits from offline games will keep them afloat no matter how badly they run their online games.

Nothing will change, because their current system turns a profit. Don't delude yourself into thinking they care about customers. Nothing will be changed unless they see a viable threat to subscription numbers. For how much people ***** about FFXI, most are not willing to stop paying/playing, and that's all that matters.
#262 Aug 17 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
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Well, that makes sense, because YOU'RE RETARDED. Seriously, how old are you? 12? 13?

Frankly I just don't have the time to pick apart all of the things that are flat out wrong with what you said. And I'm not sure I've ever seen such a pitiful attempt at argument as I have from you.

And lol@ you thinking I would actually ask professors about statistical applications over a video game. fyi, I don't go to college anymore, though I'm looking at starting my PhD soon.

I'll say this though... if you're at a point where a game is "common sense" such that you can no longer pinpoint the skills, your game is TOO EASY. (And yes, FFXI was way too easy, aside from the organizational skills and time commitment, which, you know, are a BLAST.)




It is common sense and if you can't see this then maybe you don't have common sense. As in other people in this thread see how everything that you said is common sense. They might have said that its a little bit of skill mixed in with common sense, which is true but a huge part of any game is common sense.

Quote:
You are right in the basic...common sense is the most vital thing about being "good" in a game, but I can also assure you that there are exceptions and not to few of them indeed xD


People like this know common sense, i'm sorry you cant see it.


I am in college so i'm not 12, or 13, and don't say I will "trust my professor" if you never even asked them. This just proves again that you are just saying random things to make yourself look right. It wasn't about video games, the main point was if you think hundreds (and thats generous) of people is valid to talk for millions of people then your professor, degree, and textbook all need to be retested. That can be in any issue, a hundred people is not valid enough to talk for millions of people. Not to mention the japanese people that make the game, and you are talking about 90% of the playerbase thinks a certain way. That is bs numbers and just pulled out of thin air.



Edited, Aug 17th 2009 4:51pm by HocusP
#263 Aug 17 2009 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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People like this know common sense, i'm sorry you cant see it.


I am in college so i'm not 12, or 13, and don't say I will "trust my professor" if you never even asked them. This just proves again that you are just saying random things to make yourself look right.


What the **** does that even mean that common sense is a part of skill in video game? Is that supposed to be insightful? The fact that common sense applies to virtually everything one does? You hand most people a controller and tell them to play a game, they won't know what to do, regardless of how much common sense they have. It will take time for them to develop the skills. Just because one person was being agreeable with you, don't go getting a big head.

Further exemplifying how (to be blunt) stupid you're being, can you not see how I can trust a professor's input on a subject and not ask them explicitly about it? Because if you can't, then I'm sorry, but you really are pants on head retarded. Well let me help you just in case. If a professor teaches me a universal principle, like atoms have mass, do I need to ASK them if a hydrogen atom has mass?

Hundreds/millions =! FFXI

I'm not going to bother explaining to you why you're wrong until you can demonstrate that you have the capacity to understand basic statistics. What is "p"? Feel free to google it.

Gawd, what are you majoring in?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#264 Aug 17 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
Shezard wrote:
But if doing Dynamis 2/week and with normal droprate you can get it done in 1-2 month


LOL!!! Ahahahahahahahahahaha.

Final Stage of a relic in 1-2 month with normal drop rate? No, sorry. Coming from some one who's been doing dynamis since the day it came out, leading shells, and sponsoring (and having a stage 4 relic myself) you are soooooooo totally wrong. Physically impossible to do stage 4 of a relic (10,000 currency) in 2 months worth of currency, even with a great linkshell, and good luck on currency drops. Even with the 3,000 currency final loan, this is still impossible to do.

I'm staying out of the rest of the thread for now, as it seems the trolls do not know when they've made fools of themselves and when to simply stop posting.
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#265 Aug 17 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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That's more a matter of finding a LS that is willing to get YOU a relic. Yeah, it's pretty easy if you have a group of people willing to hand you a relic on a silver platter (even though as you point out, it still takes several weeks).



As I said right after the sentence you quoted, the biggest problem is/was that most LSs didn't care for Relics, as they didn't see the benefit for the LS in overall, rather than "If I am not giving a Relic to myself, then nobody shall have one"! Giving the "first" Relic to yourself would automatically cause issues with the whole LS, as many members would think of you as a leader you're a loot *****. But also many leaders were really selfish and thought, If I'm not given the right to get the first one as a leader, nobody should get one...

All I can say about that is...immature...immature...immature xD

People need to get over such things to be successful in a long term(in FFXIV I mean, not the RL...in RL it really pays out to be a selfish @#%^ xD)

edit: @Endless: Do the maths. We had Dynamis runs with getting as low as 200 Currency while having Dynamis Runs as high as 1000 Currency. Taking the average means 600(which is good, but a little exaggerated). 2 months mean 17-18 Dyna Runs. 17-18 x 600 = 10.200-10.800 Currency. Let's say you get below average runs(=400) you will still get 6.800-7.200 Currency in 2 months of Dyna. This would mean it will take around 3 months...

As soon as you stop putting all my words on the gold weigh...you can go on annoying me! BTW: Stage 4 after 5 years of playing...If I self funded a Relic it would have taken me like 2 years to get it done...you're LSs must have really sucked in the "social-support-member" way.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 10:47pm by Shezard
#266 Aug 17 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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MMORPG or MMOFPS or not doesn't matter. Ranking system would be a far better dynamic than Gear. Mmorpgs are not RPGs. IN Rpgs once you reach the end of the game you obtain the best possible gear and its over with. Never will there be a better gear and at some point you can get all the secret gear in decent finite time and finish the game feeling accomplished. In FFXI this is likely never to happen for you. MMO makes the game dynamic and non linear and therefore using the same methods fail. I like new gear in FFXI but I dont like how often it has to come out just to keep the players who spend every minute of their lives busy before the lower players can access it. I think this is why PVP is very successful in WoW because it gives players basically gives hardcore players something they can potentially do infinitely until a new expansion comes out. (in which case they usually cover the content pretty fast). Not saying that inFF14 that has to be PVP but there needs to be something besides gear. And like someone said in a previous post skill is dexerity and stragedy. Theres nothing else to it. And like someone mentioned about the blackmage sleeping and nuking your right, this isnt skill it is common sense, but who said FFXI required skill to begin with? it doesnt just a never ending time pool. Thats why Im saying FF14 should be more based around skill than gear. The grind should be an enaging gameplay like most other FF games...

You know actually have combo abilities. Where two players can combine spells or abilities into one...(FF9 vivi and steiner come to mind). More protective spells (that seemingly do something). Actually have elemental spells do excessively more damage when matching against the right type. (FF11 failed to do this, mages mostly just used their highest tier spell). And make position more important...

11 failed in two key FF aspects, gameplay and story. (and those who say the story was good in FF11 are kidding themselves, and clearly never played any of the other FF games).
#267 Aug 17 2009 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I already explained why they had a responsibility to do so. Your assertion that it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to do so is probably THE SINGLE MOST RIDICULOUS THING THAT HAS BEEN SAID IN THIS THREAD. People have already described a number of ways they could do so.

Whatever. I think I'll just explain this to my iPod. It understands what I'm saying just as well, but the noise it makes is a lot more pleasant.


I wish I was your iPod, because every post you say 'I already explained this'. Without ever giving explanation. Same argument you gave to my request to just simply put your point into a concise post.

And perhaps you could do it without insults or attempting to impress people with your level of education. If you ARE a PhD candidate, what field? Is it relevant to the discussion? If your masters is in say... ethnic musicology... then it really doesn't lend any credibility.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 11:42pm by Shazaamemt
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#268 Aug 17 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
Shezard wrote:
edit: @Endless: Do the maths. We had Dynamis runs with getting as low as 200 Currency while having Dynamis Runs as high as 1000 Currency. Taking the average means 600(which is good, but a little exaggerated). 2 months mean 17-18 Dyna Runs. 17-18 x 600 = 10.200-10.800 Currency. Let's say you get below average runs(=400) you will still get 6.800-7.200 Currency in 2 months of Dyna. This would mean it will take around 3 months...

As soon as you stop putting all my words on the gold weigh...you can go on annoying me! BTW: Stage 4 after 5 years of playing...If I self funded a Relic it would have taken me like 2 years to get it done...you're LSs must have really sucked in the "social-support-member" way.


My LS's sucked? Haha, no, I'm just realistic. You people keep proving idiots of yourselves in so many ways, and it just keeps getting funnier and funnier. Good runs with 1000 currency? What a load of crap. In my 5 years of dynamis the best currency I ever saw was right below 800, it was in a Dynamis-San d'Oria run where we did a full and complete clear of the zone, meaning when we were done killing there was nothing left to kill, I think we had 15 minutes on the clock when we cleared everything out. The only reason at THAT we got close to 800 is because we got astronomically lucky on 100 pieces.

The average run, for a good linkshell nets about 200-400 currency a run, depending on how lucky you get with 100's. But you cannot simply count on 500 currency a run. It's very common for 100's not to fall and you end up getting 200-300 currency. Which is closer to the average for most everyone.

And yeah, 5 years, stage 4, and I will not be able to finish because the game takes too much time, too many of my friends saw that and quit, and I hit a dead end, but you know why I'm on stage 4 after 5 years? It's because I was always letting other people sponsor, or selling the currency to split within the linkshell and to pay for future runs. Guess I'm one of those selfish leaders though amirite?
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#269 Aug 17 2009 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You people keep proving idiots of yourselves in so many ways


WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'YOU PEOPLE'.

lol.

Seriously though, there are multiple arguments being made here, and I would just like to make sure that you understand you were responding to an individual's post there, not the entirety of everyone who has an opposing view point.

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Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

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#270 Aug 17 2009 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
You people keep proving idiots of yourselves in so many ways


WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'YOU PEOPLE'.


Them's fight'n words!

"You people" as in you people who...

...Get things like 1000 currency per Dynamis run? And other random things that don't actually happen but sound good in theory. Seriously, I will move to your server, kiss your ****, move to your city, wash your car, wash your moms car, clean your house, and make your dinner every day if I could join and sponsor in a shell that could produce those numbers. I'd even let you call me Betty.
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#271 Aug 17 2009 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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If you ARE a PhD candidate, what field? Is it relevant to the discussion?


It probably doesn't matter what field, to be honest. I can't say that I know the required curricula for every masters or doctoral program ever, but I'm pretty sure that most every **** one of them requires you to have an adequate understanding of quantitative and qualitative research including experimental design, and statistics. ****, I couldn't even complete my bachelors without taking a statistics class.

And that was the point. I never said my education was relevant to everything said in this thread, just that my observations about player opinions do have generalizable validity, and that I wasn't pulling numbers out of my ***. I have conceded that I don't know about Japanese players' opinions, but then I really doubt their opinions differ so greatly. Game design is a very psychological field, and I don't think the Japanese have an entirely unique psychology.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#272 Aug 18 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Default
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456 posts
Quote:
What the **** does that even mean that common sense is a part of skill in video game? Is that supposed to be insightful? The fact that common sense applies to virtually everything one does? You hand most people a controller and tell them to play a game, they won't know what to do, regardless of how much common sense they have. It will take time for them to develop the skills. Just because one person was being agreeable with you, don't go getting a big head.


If you don't know what common sense is in a video game, then thats your problem. If you hand a "gamer" any game in 30 mintues or less time, that person would have the game mapped out. Once you get an understanding of the game, any person with common sense are "good players". For example, in RTS games, after the 20 minutes tutorial, I usually go straight online and crushing people. In the 20 minute tutorial you get an understanding of the game, and what each unit in each army can do, then common sense takes over online. Same for madden, if you understand football and how madden plays then with common sense you will be a good gamer. An understanding of football and common sense would tell you to punt on 4th down and 19 and stuff like that, and even what plays to use vs what defense.

This goes for pretty much every game, once you understand how the game plays, all it takes is common sense to be good at it. For example, I'm soloing on blm, of course I want to stand far as possible from the mob before I nuke it. Then, of course I want to sleep it before it reaches me, and repeat. I want to cast buffs before I start fighting, thats all common sense. A person with no common sense would stand right next to the mob right before he nukes it, and just get pounded on. Common sense vs skill is easier to see in real life. In basketball the common sense part is you want to get the ball in the hoop. Now, how you go about doing that is skill. How light to shoot the ball, how hard to shoot the ball, and when to shoot the ball, all falls under skill.

Games doesn't have this amount of depth. Their is some skill involved in games, but a lot of it is common sense and understanding the game. A "gamer" is usually a person that can pick up any game and within a short amount of time be great at it.

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Further exemplifying how (to be blunt) stupid you're being, can you not see how I can trust a professor's input on a subject and not ask them explicitly about it? Because if you can't, then I'm sorry, but you really are pants on head retarded. Well let me help you just in case. If a professor teaches me a universal principle, like atoms have mass, do I need to ASK them if a hydrogen atom has mass?

Hundreds/millions =! FFXI


You shouldn't have to ask them anything, common sense should tell you that talking to that amount of people is nowhere valid enough to talk for millions. You don't know how 5% of the playerbase feels, so speaking for 90% is not valid. Then saying it could be 99% is even funnier when you don't know how 5% of the playerbase feels. Just say the people I talk to is 90% to 10%. Don't say that 90% of the "playerbase" thinks a certain way, and think that is anywhere close to a valid number (pulling numbers out of your ***).

Quote:
And that was the point. I never said my education was relevant to everything said in this thread, just that my observations about player opinions do have generalizable validity, and that I wasn't pulling numbers out of my ***. I have conceded that I don't know about Japanese players' opinions, but then I really doubt their opinions differ so greatly. Game design is a very psychological field, and I don't think the Japanese have an entirely unique psychology.


Well since the japanese has played 2 years before na and is still around I beg to differ. At least on my server they was still their, and killing hnms. I had a few Japanese friends (some in my ls and some not) that could speak english and never heard them complain. This again is not valid enough to talk for the japanese people, as these are just the few I knew and could talk to. I would think the japanese people would way heavier on SE view of the game since SE is a japanese company. The japanese community can also communicate with SE easily, and without a language barrier. Even without knowledge of the japanese playerbase it was still a very inaccurate number.

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MMORPG or MMOFPS or not doesn't matter. Ranking system would be a far better dynamic than Gear. Mmorpgs are not RPGs.


Yea it just has rpg in the name. It is a rpg just one that is online and played with millions of people.

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IN Rpgs once you reach the end of the game you obtain the best possible gear and its over with. Never will there be a better gear and at some point you can get all the secret gear in decent finite time and finish the game feeling accomplished.



This is not true, even in offline rpgs, most of them have downloadable content. Content usually comes out after the game was released and a lot of it, the only difference is you have to pay for it.

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And like someone said in a previous post skill is dexerity and stragedy. Theres nothing else to it. And like someone mentioned about the blackmage sleeping and nuking your right, this isnt skill it is common sense, but who said FFXI required skill to begin with? it doesnt just a never ending time pool. Thats why Im saying FF14 should be more based around skill than gear. The grind should be an enaging gameplay like most other FF games...


So lets see you said skill is only dexterity and strategy and want a game based on skill. In your form of skill, the game would just be based on making a winning strategy and common sense (or mental skill). That is cool but again gear will always be the reward in a RPG, especially a mmorpg.

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The grind should be an enaging gameplay like most other FF games


Most other FF games has gear as a major reward, just nobody to show it too. They still required you to have gear, and it was very important. Its a reason why gil is in every FF, and its not to buy skill. Its to buy gear, and their was rare pieces in every FF. Its goes like this, rank is to fps, like gear is to rpg. That doesn't mean their won't be titles and ranks in rpgs, but gear is the real reward. They said PvP will take a similar form so ffxi's PvP, so I doubt that will be the "reward' your looking for.



Edited, Aug 18th 2009 10:46am by HocusP
#273 Aug 18 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
My LS's sucked? Haha, no, I'm just realistic. You people keep proving idiots of yourselves in so many ways, and it just keeps getting funnier and funnier. Good runs with 1000 currency? What a load of crap. In my 5 years of dynamis the best currency I ever saw was right below 800, it was in a Dynamis-San d'Oria run where we did a full and complete clear of the zone, meaning when we were done killing there was nothing left to kill, I think we had 15 minutes on the clock when we cleared everything out. The only reason at THAT we got close to 800 is because we got astronomically lucky on 100 pieces.

The average run, for a good linkshell nets about 200-400 currency a run, depending on how lucky you get with 100's. But you cannot simply count on 500 currency a run. It's very common for 100's not to fall and you end up getting 200-300 currency. Which is closer to the average for most everyone.


Seriously...I tried to stay polite...but after reading this I really have to ask you. "Are you too dumb to read?"
You are firing "arguments" at me, that I already posted myself that some things are "exaggerated"...still you "point at me" as If I would believe 1000 Currency would be normal...

You said 200-400 Currency is more near average...I posted that 400 is probably more average than 600...and 400 is more than fine with average, as you still have Dyna Runs from time to time, where you will get your obligatory 600-700 Currencys...if it happened to you that rarely...well your loss...it happened to us on a regular basis(like every 4-5th run). After all it's all just LUCK! And you seriously only proof of yourself, that even pointing out that you did almost everything FFXI Endgame has to offer plus having 12 Jobs on 75 blah blah..., still have no clue about certain things, not to forget thinking beyond your own boundaries...There are LS's that got like 10 Ridils in 40 Fafnirs...it happens...just because it didn't happen to you doesn't qualify you to say other people are talking BS...especially since I am not even talking about impossible things, just one lucky run...but well...

Now I have to point out...we did Dynamis Runs for the single purpose of getting as much currency as possible when we were about to get a Relic done. And Bastok was our favorite at the time I still played...thats where we got 1000 Currency ONE time...
I didn't say your LS's sucked...I said your LS's sucked on the social part...in our LS the last Stage was completely funded by LS if you got your Relic that far by yourself(besides the Relics that were worked for from Stage 1 to Final).

And once again, learn to read...I said many leaders were "selfish" with Relics, so they said to themselves, "If I won't get a Relic, nobody does"...no clue how you reflect that to yourself, but that leads me to the next point...

The way you're talking about your LS experience is like you haven't even been in a LS that does all on her own. It sounds like you joined a pure Dyna LS and/or lead one by yourself...dealing with Dynamis like this usually doesn't end in anyone getting a Relic...simple reason...you're not a LS that stays together for everything, you're simply meeting for Dynamis...that nobody will get a Relic like that is only obvious...

But once again...if that really applies to you...well then I can only say...you seriously got no REAL good Endgame LS...as the real good ones do all events by themself...well but now at least I can figure why you're so "shocked" by numbers like getting Full Homam in 4 months or a Final Stage Relic in 2 months...you're not part of a LS that plays TOGETHER...you're only playing with people who happen to do the same thing you do...
If I had played that way from the start til I quit...I would have quit like a year earlier...lol...

Well...but who am I to know/judge...Endless is pure logic and unfailable! *hail to the God*

PS: I am looking forward to see how you progress in FFXIV...I did everything FFXI had to offer by the time I quit...although I am in no need to point at that the whole time like you seem to need to...oh and what got included HNM wise since 2005...hmm Ixion, ZNMs and ToAU "Gods"...wow pretty much you did in those last 4 years...

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 3:05pm by Shezard

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 3:57pm by Shezard
#274 Aug 18 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Hocus: You need to play harder games, I guess. Common sense will not improve your manual dexterity at all, and in strategy games, common sense will be enough to get your *** kicked.

So no, common sense is not enough to get you through any game of skill, unless that game is retardedly easy.

I'm quite sure I've been a gamer longer than you, by the way, and doubt that you're much better than me if at all, so don't try to explain this to me as some leet expert gamer talking to a newbie.

I thought all of this posting might exhaust your ******** reserves, but it seems like you're so full of **** that you've got a ******* lifetime supply.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#275 Aug 18 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Hocus: You need to play harder games, I guess. Common sense will not improve your manual dexterity at all, and in strategy games, common sense will be enough to get your *** kicked.

So no, common sense is not enough to get you through any game of skill, unless that game is retardedly easy.

I'm quite sure I've been a gamer longer than you, by the way, and doubt that you're much better than me if at all, so don't try to explain this to me as some leet expert gamer talking to a newbie.

I thought all of this posting might exhaust your bullsh*t reserves, but it seems like you're so full of sh*t that you've got a @#%^ing lifetime supply.


All games are like this, name a harder game I need to play then if you have any suggestions. In strategy games, common sense is enough to win. How you react is also common sense, if they have all horses (in rts), then you should have pikeman and vice versa. Its not that hard at all, you just counter balance what they have, and that is common sense and a understanding for the game.

You might have been a gamer longer then me and that is fine. If you have no common sense then i'd bet my house on me being better then you in any game. I'm talking to you as an expert gamer and you a newbie, i'm just stating the obvious that common sense has a lot to do with being good in any game. If you are taking offense because my point is right, or you don't like my examples, then thats your own perception. I have never said or implied that your were a newbie and I was some "expert" gamer, in anyway.

Your right, I have a lifetime supply of common sense, if that is this "bullsh*t" that you speak off.


As far as dynamis and relics go...

How my linkshell did it was, we did dynamis as a linkshell, but we also had 1 or 2 people doing dynamis outside of the linkshell. They would sponser their own dynamis linkshell and bring the currency to the linkshell. All of this was with the same goal of getting a relic and it makes it happen so much faster. So in a sense, we was getting currency at 6 times a week rate, instead of 2 times a week. I think we had 6 relics in the linkshell because of this, until I quit the game altogether. One person had 2 relics but thats only because he got his first relic solely on his own, and no he wasn't the "leader or even a sac holder". Their are linkshells out their that isn't a "leader take all" type of shell. With organization skills and a some smart thinking (and a couple friends, or even another account), you could get relics in 2 months.

My problem with relics has always been, it takes a lot of money and people to achieve. I would much rather have an item like that take a lot of battles and bosses in order to obtain. But, thats how relics was done, and I'm not going to cry about it.




Edited, Aug 18th 2009 12:09pm by HocusP

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 12:09pm by HocusP
#276 Aug 18 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Just throwing something in!

Everyone who wants to test their "Gaming-Skill"/Multitasking Skill.

Go try this and see how far you will get. Common sense alone won't be helping you here :p

http://www.kongregate.com/games/IcyLime/multitask

PS: This really shows skill ;)

edit: One really important thing. Put your sound volume UP! The music together with the Game just pumps up the adreanline xD

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 3:54pm by Shezard
#277 Aug 18 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Let me ask you this, Hocus. You have plenty of common sense, fair enough.

How are you at chess?
Can you play every song on Guitar Hero/Rock Band perfectly?
What about fighting games. Maybe you have the best win record of all time on Super Smash Bros., or what's popular these days... BlazBlue?

Nevermind that common sense is about as nebulous as terms come, but is common sense enough to get you a degree as a medical doctor, a lawyer, or a physicist?

There are very real, noticeable differences between people's skills. It's not like common sense, whatever the **** that's supposed to even mean, is some kind of binary, that some people have and some people don't. Nor is it always that the person with the most common sense will do the best at a video game. Some people are more intelligent and have cognitive skills that others don't possess, and common sense be damned, they will straight up whoop your *** at a game of wits. Others simply have better reflexes and coordination, and no amount of common sense will overcome years of motor skill conditioning.

****, even FFXI takes more than common sense. The best players in FFXI don't rely on common sense-- they rely on research and deliberation. They memorize tons of information about the game and synthesize it into applicable conclusions, whether figuring out an ideal gear configuration, working out a strategy on the fly, or calculating the most profitable synth vs. sell rate to make gil. None of this is common sense. These are specialized skills.

So do you realize that you're wrong yet? I'll even apologize for being such a **** to you if you can just admit that you were mistaken.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#278 Aug 18 2009 at 11:43 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Let me ask you this, Hocus. You have plenty of common sense, fair enough.

How are you at chess?
Can you play every song on Guitar Hero/Rock Band perfectly?
What about fighting games. Maybe you have the best win record of all time on Super Smash Bros., or what's popular these days... BlazBlue?


I'm good (not great) at chess, since I havern't played since like 8th grade. Chess involves a lot of strategy and a lot of common sense. You wouldn't take a pawn with your queen if you know its going to get taken next turn (thats common sense). I am pretty good at guitar hero and rock band, as I have good hand-eye coordination from playing sports. I could get every song perfectly on normal, but not on hard, as my pinky always seem to let me down. Rockband and Guitar Hero are games that focus directly on hand-eye coordination. Fighting games usually just come down to a button mash. Its people that can just pick up the game and smash buttons and do lucky combos to win. I don't see button mashing as skill.

Quote:
Nevermind that common sense is about as nebulous as terms come, but is common sense enough to get you a degree as a medical doctor, a lawyer, or a physicist?


No you can't, and thats the point i'm trying to make. It is easy to see skill in real life, but its way different when the word "skill" is used in a video game. In a video game, if you look at it, a lot of "skill" is actually common sense.


Quote:
There are very real, noticeable differences between people's skills. It's not like common sense, whatever the @#%^ that's supposed to even mean, is some kind of binary, that some people have and some people don't. Nor is it always that the person with the most common sense will do the best at a video game. Some people are more intelligent and have cognitive skills that others don't possess, and common sense be damned, they will straight up whoop your *** at a game of wits. Others simply have better reflexes and coordination, and no amount of common sense will overcome years of motor skill conditioning.


No it doesn't mean that the person with the most common sense will do the best everytime at a game (not always). But, it do mean that most of the time he will, and it is a huge part of this "skill" you speak of. Luck is also a part of skill in a game, more much so then in real life. If two people have the same understanding of the game, the person with more common sense will win most of the time (unless he is just terrible in hand-eye coordination). i didn't say common sense was the "only" thing you need, but as others have said, it is a huge part of being good in a video game. I don't see "skill" in something that everybody "should" have (keyword being should).

Quote:
****, even FFXI takes more than common sense. The best players in FFXI don't rely on common sense-- they rely on research and deliberation. They memorize tons of information about the game and synthesize it into applicable conclusions, whether figuring out an ideal gear configuration, working out a strategy on the fly, or calculating the most profitable synth vs. sell rate to make gil. None of this is common sense. These are specialized skills.


They rely heavily on common sense. Yes strategys and planning do come into play, but a huge deal of it is common sense. All of that falls under, understanding the game, which I have said a while ago is a part of being good as well. I'll say it again, a lot of common sense, combined with an understanding of the game, and some hand-eye coordination and you will be good at almost any game. This such formula doesn't work in the real world, and is why we can see who is skilled and who just doesnt have it, rather easily.

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 3:49pm by HocusP

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 3:51pm by HocusP
#279 Aug 18 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
They rely heavily on common sense. Yes strategys and planning do come into play, but a huge deal of it is common sense. All of that falls under, understanding the game, which I have said a while ago is a part of being good as well. I'll say it again, a lot of common sense, combined with an understanding of the game, and some hand-eye coordination and you will be good at almost any game.

I feel kinda stupid, but what "common sense" are you talking about?

There are no secret that skills often interchangeable as they are based on basic human stats - so excellent player in chess will be good at similar games - thanks to trained memory, analytical skills and depth of thinking. But not for every othere activity - beeing good at chess will give you almost no help in running - and vice versa.

On other hand simple knowledge of basics will not help you - as one-month rookie player is nowhere near 5-year hard-trained veteran - and this is what usually called "skill" - training, knowledge and experience. There are also some talent in play which can make less experienced people be on par with more experienced ones, but with the same amount of talent more experienced usually wins.

HocusP wrote:
This such formula doesn't work in the real world, and is why we can see who is skilled and who just doesnt have it, rather easily.

Actually it does, but it is little less emphasized - as it is harder to polish skills in real life.
#280 Aug 18 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I feel kinda stupid, but what "common sense" are you talking about?

There are no secret that skills often interchangeable as they are based on basic human stats - so excellent player in chess will be good at similar games - thanks to trained memory, analytical skills and depth of thinking. But not for every othere activity - beeing good at chess will give you almost no help in running - and vice versa.

On other hand simple knowledge of basics will not help you - as one-month rookie player is nowhere near 5-year hard-trained veteran - and this is what usually called "skill" - training, knowledge and experience. There are also some talent in play which can make less experienced people be on par with more experienced ones, but with the same amount of talent more experienced usually wins.


Common sense, is common knowledge that every human above a certain age, should have. A lot of gamers can just pick up any game and within 30 mins to an hour and be good at it. In that time they are learning to understand the game, and then common sense and logic takes over from their. Its tons of games I have just picked up, and had people ask how long I have been playing because I was doing good. I use to work in a game store so people constantly walked in and out. I'm not claiming to be this awesome gamer or anything, i'm just stating that understanding the game and common sense is a huge part of being good. Their are many people that can just pick up a game and it looks like they have been playing for years. Its not many people that can just pick up all sports or a profession and be good at it right away.

Quote:
-In FFXI and lots of other MMORPGs, it's a stretch to call what we do "skill." There's a lot of knowledge involved, some mastery of the controls, and a bit of timing, but more than that there's a **** of a lot of common sense and luck.


This was a remark from someone else in another thread, and I just quoted it because its relevant here. The only difference is I see most games this way, and not just mmorpgs. A lot of what it takes to be good is common sense and on some games a tad bit of luck. Common sense is not the only thing it takes to be a great player, but its a huge part.
#281 Aug 18 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
Shezard wrote:

Seriously...I tried to stay polite...but after reading this I really have to ask you. "Are you too dumb to read?"
You are firing "arguments" at me, that I already posted myself that some things are "exaggerated"...still you "point at me" as If I would believe 1000 Currency would be normal...

You said 200-400 Currency is more near average...I posted that 400 is probably more average than 600...and 400 is more than fine with average, as you still have Dyna Runs from time to time, where you will get your obligatory 600-700 Currencys...if it happened to you that rarely...well your loss...it happened to us on a regular basis(like every 4-5th run). After all it's all just LUCK! And you seriously only proof of yourself, that even pointing out that you did almost everything FFXI Endgame has to offer plus having 12 Jobs on 75 blah blah..., still have no clue about certain things, not to forget thinking beyond your own boundaries...There are LS's that got like 10 Ridils in 40 Fafnirs...it happens...just because it didn't happen to you doesn't qualify you to say other people are talking BS...especially since I am not even talking about impossible things, just one lucky run...but well...

Now I have to point out...we did Dynamis Runs for the single purpose of getting as much currency as possible when we were about to get a Relic done. And Bastok was our favorite at the time I still played...thats where we got 1000 Currency ONE time...
I didn't say your LS's sucked...I said your LS's sucked on the social part...in our LS the last Stage was completely funded by LS if you got your Relic that far by yourself(besides the Relics that were worked for from Stage 1 to Final).

And once again, learn to read...I said many leaders were "selfish" with Relics, so they said to themselves, "If I won't get a Relic, nobody does"...no clue how you reflect that to yourself, but that leads me to the next point...

The way you're talking about your LS experience is like you haven't even been in a LS that does all on her own. It sounds like you joined a pure Dyna LS and/or lead one by yourself...dealing with Dynamis like this usually doesn't end in anyone getting a Relic...simple reason...you're not a LS that stays together for everything, you're simply meeting for Dynamis...that nobody will get a Relic like that is only obvious...

But once again...if that really applies to you...well then I can only say...you seriously got no REAL good Endgame LS...as the real good ones do all events by themself...well but now at least I can figure why you're so "shocked" by numbers like getting Full Homam in 4 months or a Final Stage Relic in 2 months...you're not part of a LS that plays TOGETHER...you're only playing with people who happen to do the same thing you do...
If I had played that way from the start til I quit...I would have quit like a year earlier...lol...

Well...but who am I to know/judge...Endless is pure logic and unfailable! *hail to the God*

PS: I am looking forward to see how you progress in FFXIV...I did everything FFXI had to offer by the time I quit...although I am in no need to point at that the whole time like you seem to need to...oh and what got included HNM wise since 2005...hmm Ixion, ZNMs and ToAU "Gods"...wow pretty much you did in those last 4 years...


My reading skills are fine, what about yours? You said you could complete the final stage of a relic (which is 10,000 currency) in 1-2 months. You then provided your numbers as to how. I'm pointing out how that is wrong.

I've been in every kind of Linkshell, the majority being all around HNMLS. When I say I've lead Dynamis Linkshells or Helped lead them or been a part of many of them, I'm saying it in the context of "that's one of the things the linkshell did" so I'm sorry if I did not make that more clear. I've been in some Dynamis-Only Linkshells, or some Limbus-Only Linkshells. There are points where I had several linkshells that all did different events. But the majority of my time was spent in full blown HNMLS.

I still do not see how you average 600-700 with high end runs netting you 1000 currency. Please provide some kind of proof instead of just your own word on it. "Most" dynamis linkshells (being HNMLS or strictly dynamis) average about 200-400 currency a run, with high end runs being 500-600. If you do a full clear of a zone, and get lucky on 100 pieces, I can see a 700-800 run, but that being very very rare.

Again, provide your proof instead of just saying "This is what I got". Also, by what you're saying, if a linkshell farmed currency that hardcore from day one, by your math you should be able to get a complete relic weapon, in 2-4 months. Seeing how final stage is 10,000 currency and all the stages combined before that are around 8,000 depending on the relic.

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 4:29pm by EndlessJourney
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#282 Aug 18 2009 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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My mind is reeling at the number of people in this thread who are trying to argue that an individual is not ultimately responsible for their own actions, without explicitly stating their argument as such and instead choosing to rely on the vagaries inherent in neo-utilitarian social constructs.

No, Square Enix is not responsible for people's unhealthy playing habits. Ever. There is no part of their game which can remove a person's ability to choose to simply shut their computer off. The arguments here are akin to blaming Shuffleboard Table Outlet because someone stayed awake for 3 days playing shuffleboard before collapsing and dying of exhaustion just to see if they could get a new high score.

Just because Square Enix has put into place events that may last up to several hours does not mean that individuals are required to partake in them (moreover, there is only your opinion that a 3-hour event is somehow unhealthy, when individual circumstances vary; I used to go to Dynamis and/or camp kings on my days off, and then run five miles after the event was finished). There are a myriad of other activities in the game that only require 30 to 90 minutes in one sitting to complete, and if people decide they want to stack these events ten-deep and sit around for 5+ hours doing the same thing, Square Enix is not complicit in these individual's personal decisions to do so.

Addiction is a nasty beast, one that most certainly sacrifices certain aspects of an individual's ability to choose their actions healthily, but you can no more prove that Square Enix is responsible for these addictions than I can prove any of you are addicted to avoiding culpability for your own actions. Square Enix's game is a vehicle for these people's addictions, not their harbinger. A family member of mine is addicted to online games; before that, it was alcohol; before that, it was crack and cocaine; before that, it was cigarettes. You're asking me to believe that the peddlers of all of these drugs was somehow responsible for my family member's addictions, when it's far more likely that my family member just has a psychological predilection towards addiction because of personal failings in the real world. To be honest, placing the blame on the company of an MMO for one's addiction is far more damaging to them in the long run, because you're trying to treat the vehicle for their addiction rather than their underlying causes.

Kachi wrote:
What a naively idealistic sentiment. In a responsible society, people look out for eachother, meaning both parties share the responsibility of ensuring one another's wellbeing.


Irony has always been my favorite form of humor...
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DRK wrote:
No, it's too late. Already, great cataracts of blood pour forth in mighty rivulets of gore from the vicious, millimeter-deep wounds I have dealt to my forearm with my Vorpal Safety Pin of Weeping.
#283 Aug 18 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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firefeng wrote:
Snip.


I apologize, but your argument is spurious from top to bottom.

The intent of my OP was not that Square Enix has guilt. It was that Square Enix has agency. Social responsibility does not demand a utopian world where responsibility means success. It only means doing all you can to ensure that the real people playing your game will suffer the least possible consequences if something goes wrong.

Moreover, your argument is incorrectly referring to XI as though it is a substance.

XI is not a substance, nor is WoW, or EQ, or Guild Wars. Whatever. MMORPGs aren't a substance, they are an experience. What we call to question is the full context that this experience takes place in: Political, social, cultural, etc.

By simply partaking in the experience, we participate in a flawed system. The system unfairly taxes us. The system is not questioned, but the system contributes to our own errors. Can we fully blame the system? Never! But does the flawed system take some souls—some more innocent than others—down with it? Yes. Absolutely. We see this with collegiate Greek life: You get drinking fish and innocent men and women. Greek life can bring both down. A call for greater social responsibility demands that Greek organizations reform drinking policies because the system and experience are to blame. Not the alcohol. Not the individual Greeks. And certainly not the entire organization. (PS: There is no Greek organization that officially endorses underage drinking. You think these people are stupid?) What is at fault is the entire EXPERIENCE with all the social, political, and cultural context.

Experiences are not substances. You can't buy one in a liquor store. But if it's broken, it can ruin you all the same.
#284 Aug 18 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What is at fault is the entire EXPERIENCE with all the social, political, and cultural context.


So thus it is moot to even argue that the developers should be expected to deliver 'social responsibility', as the entire EXPERIENCE of a MMO is flawed.

So is the rest of life with all the social, political, and cultural context. Ultimately it is up to the individual on how to interpret and reconcile their own experience to their own desires.

And what is up with the Greek system crap? Either you just got done pledging or you have been watching too much ABC Family. And it makes a poor analogy, since the Greek system continues to be flawed despite whatever reforms are made over countless years. It still produces both leaders and dropouts. Such is life.

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 12:19am by Shazaamemt
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#285 Aug 18 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote from Kachi

Quote:
The best players in FFXI don't rely on common sense-- they rely on research and deliberation. They memorize tons of information about the game and synthesize it into applicable conclusions, whether figuring out an ideal gear configuration, working out a strategy on the fly


Despite all the flaws in FFXI like the rediculous LFP times and the obscene time it took to get through certain missions, THIS remains one of my favorite things about FFXI. It required more brain-use than any other MMO I played.

With the promise of FFXIV being both more casual and more strategic, I really hope that both promises can be fulfilled.

The strategy and planning was perhaps the strongest pull of the game for me. Followed shortly by the GREAT storyline. (I have heard only one poster ever complain about the cutscenes and storyline... only because said poster was comparing the FFXI storyline to prior FFs...).

Out of any MMO out there, I think it is pretty clear that FFXI won on the storyline and cutscenes. Many other MMOs have good storyline.. but those MMOs are reliant on a pre-existing universe of lore. (WoW, AoC, WAR, LotRO, etc.) (Matrix Online?LOL).



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#286 Aug 18 2009 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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No no no...

Corporations should not be held responsible for how their products are misused by the general public.

"But SE created a game with events that span several hours, quests that take months, etc etc etc."

GM builds cars that exceed 180 MPH. Bacardi sells 151 proof rum.

There is an appropriate context for racing, 151 is used (in small quantities) in some mixed drinks, and some people can devote 3 hours in a row to a MMORPG without damaging their personal life.

If someone cannot figure out that they shouldn't drive 90 in a school zone, drink 151 straight, and play FFXI 8 hours a day, despite the warnings that corporations attach to these products, that is his or her problem, not Honda's/Bacardi's/SE's.
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#287 Aug 18 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:


So thus it is moot to even argue that the developers should be expected to deliver 'social responsibility', as the entire EXPERIENCE of a MMO is flawed.

Gee, I wonder who can change the flawed MMO structure? Hmm.

Hmm.



Edited, Aug 19th 2009 1:04am by KPBeta
#288 Aug 18 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Gee, I wonder who can change the flawed MMO structure? Hmm.

Hmm.


The same people who can change the flawed Greek structure. (To put it on the terms you like to use)


Hint: No matter the reforms made over the years, the system remains just as flawed.



Edited, Aug 19th 2009 1:07am by Shazaamemt
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#289 Aug 18 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:

Gee, I wonder who can change the flawed MMO structure? Hmm.

Hmm.


The same people who can change the flawed Greek structure.

The people running Greek life.

The people monitoring Greek life.

The boards extending chapter licenses to Greek life.
#290 Aug 18 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

The people running Greek life.

The people monitoring Greek life.

The boards extending chapter licenses to Greek life.


Yet no matter how much they reform or make changes the same problems continue to exist.
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#291 Aug 18 2009 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:

The people running Greek life.

The people monitoring Greek life.

The boards extending chapter licenses to Greek life.


Yet no matter how much they reform or make changes the same problems continue to exist.


I'm sorry but the "Glass half empty" mantra isn't an argument, it's a philosophy.

What are you arguing?
#292 Aug 18 2009 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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At the end of the day, there are plenty of reasons to hate that time wasting nonsense to pieces and very few redeeming qualities. I'm all for a hearty debate on corporate social responsibility, but there are better ways to make sure your MMO has a restricted rewards structure than just throwing Time at it.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating; FFXI was a casual game for it's time. Compared to the likes of Everquest where your experience bar had an experience bar, SE bent over backwards to remove the more frustrating aspects of the Timesink Standard when they made XI. While WoW may have taken that casual notion and ran with it to the tune of great success, that doesn't erase SE's intent.

Whether or not this was a matter of social responsibility or just hoping to appeal to a bigger market is really something only SE can answer. But I don't particularly care either way, so long as they continue in the tradition of cutting the bullsh*t out of the MMO design doctrine.



Edited, Aug 19th 2009 1:19am by Zemzelette
#293 Aug 18 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
Quote:


The people running Greek life.

The people monitoring Greek life.

The boards extending chapter licenses to Greek life.

Quote:


Yet no matter how much they reform or make changes the same problems continue to exist.



I'm sorry but the "Glass half empty" mantra isn't an argument, it's a philosophy.
What are you arguing?



For part one: so do you affirm that despite the attempts to reform the same problems continue to exist? Because there is no refutation there, only a changing of subject. That's fine, using the Greek system as proxy to argue a point was a weak metaphor to begin with, I only wanted to try to use your terms.

Quote:
I'm sorry but the "Glass half empty" mantra isn't an argument, it's a philosophy.

What are you arguing?



I'm not arguing the 'glass half empty', I am arguing that there will always be those who will always take a game too far and spend too much time on it, and that it is simply a fact. It has nothing to do with the developers or 'social responsibility' on their behalf. Similar to the posts above, any attempts to reform or change the behavior of individuals will not solve the problem. The problems will continue to exist despite the best and most well intentioned reforms.

Just what are you arguing? This time please avoid using the irrelevant references to the Greek system.


Edited, Aug 19th 2009 1:50am by Shazaamemt
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#294 Aug 18 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Default
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HocusP wrote:
Common sense, is common knowledge that every human above a certain age, should have. A lot of gamers can just pick up any game and within 30 mins to an hour and be good at it. In that time they are learning to understand the game, and then common sense and logic takes over from their.

Common sense is a basic knowledge - that usually means that you will be able at basic level.
I think you just mix experience and common knowledge and also forget about previous experience. A lot of gamers play good at a new games - because that already had a lot of experience with games, and often even with similar games. It's not like a completely fresh gamer can be good with just 30 minutes of studying common knowledge.
Strategy, tactic, reaction, memory, analysis etc - skills that lies behind of beeing a good gamer - and all of them require either talent or explicit training, not just knowledge of basics.

Also, RPG-fans is nowhere near in quality of play in FPS as FPS-fan - even if they do know common knowledge - they just lack relevant experience/skills.

HocusP wrote:
Their are many people that can just pick up a game and it looks like they have been playing for years. Its not many people that can just pick up all sports or a profession and be good at it right away.

Sprinter is much, much better with long distances than usual people. There a lot of proffesion combination that are more easy to switch between as with other - as they require similar skills.
#295 Aug 18 2009 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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KPBeta wrote:
Nonsensical tripe.


Bandying about phrases like "social, political, and cultural context" while providing no justification for their use isn't really helping your case that you aren't just muddying the waters in an attempt to absolve the individual from their own responsibility. My argument was not referring FFXI as a substance, it was using addictive substances as an analogy for your argument that Square Enix is culpable for the unhealthy gaming addiction of others. And yes, in spite of your claims to the contrary, you and others in this thread are arguing that Square Enix has abused its agency, while providing no justification for such ludicrous claims.

You state the "system is flawed", that the "system unfairly taxes" you, yet you do not state how, or why, and you certainly don't justify why a system that isn't compulsory is somehow "unfair" when you are the one choosing to partake in it. If you find it unfair, don't play the **** game. Square Enix is not responsible for changing your unjustified opinion on whatever vague, as-yet undefined concept of "social responsibility" you are erecting as the messiah of your poorly-argued point.

You are requiring Square Enix to run a fool's errand to fix something which you cannot show to be broken solely to appease a vague, torpid ideal which you have yet to even identify beyond meager inferences and a wringing of hands over "the system" and "the experience". As such, I accuse you of violating your social responsibility; in engaging in a discussion without even minimally clarifying your own position, you have dealt an indeterminable amount of damage to those who will happen upon this thread and experience your posts, and who will then take away the idea that fallacious, unjustified arguments are allowable in reasonable debate so long as they are clothed in sufficient amounts of philosophical sound bytes. You have abused your agency as a poster on a public forum, and are thus partially responsible for every fallacious argument used by anyone who has ever read your posts, and your choice not to reform your faulty arguing habits is only more evidence of your crimes against social responsibility in a social, political, and cultural context. You have not sufficiently protected your readers from suffering anything but the least heinous consequences, as reading it has made me seriously consider slaughtering homeless people in the off-chance that one of them has viewed your post from a public library computer and needs to be saved from a life-long horror of typing many things and yet saying nothing.

No, really. Justify yourself. There is nothing about your accusations against Square Enix that could not be avoided by the individual simply choosing not to play, nor are your accusations anything other than personal perceptions repeated ad nauseum but with different words until they lose their conciseness and acquit you of the burden of making a valid point through all the chaff.

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 5:22am by firefeng
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#296 Aug 19 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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@firefeng

Since you clearly read English in ways that many of us never will, please quote me in the original post where I:

—Absolve the individual of guilt in the situation.
—Attribute full accountability to Square Enix for the well being of the individual.

I have done neither. Until you find such evidence, you have no evidence, because your argument is centered around attacking a point I neither made nor implied.
#297 Aug 19 2009 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Furthermore:

May I simply state the irony of being criticized for a position about social responsibility when we are discussing a game centered around self elected military service and vigilantism. We can pay $13 a month to pick up arms willingly for Bastok and San d'Oria but we can't ask a video game company to be ethical in the creation of its products?

Curious paradox.
#298 Aug 19 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
My reading skills are fine, what about yours? You said you could complete the final stage of a relic (which is 10,000 currency) in 1-2 months. You then provided your numbers as to how. I'm pointing out how that is wrong.

I've been in every kind of Linkshell, the majority being all around HNMLS. When I say I've lead Dynamis Linkshells or Helped lead them or been a part of many of them, I'm saying it in the context of "that's one of the things the linkshell did" so I'm sorry if I did not make that more clear. I've been in some Dynamis-Only Linkshells, or some Limbus-Only Linkshells. There are points where I had several linkshells that all did different events. But the majority of my time was spent in full blown HNMLS.

I still do not see how you average 600-700 with high end runs netting you 1000 currency. Please provide some kind of proof instead of just your own word on it. "Most" dynamis linkshells (being HNMLS or strictly dynamis) average about 200-400 currency a run, with high end runs being 500-600. If you do a full clear of a zone, and get lucky on 100 pieces, I can see a 700-800 run, but that being very very rare.

Again, provide your proof instead of just saying "This is what I got". Also, by what you're saying, if a linkshell farmed currency that hardcore from day one, by your math you should be able to get a complete relic weapon, in 2-4 months. Seeing how final stage is 10,000 currency and all the stages combined before that are around 8,000 depending on the relic.


Once again your reading skills seem far from fine. You say how my numbgers are wrong, while I already posted in the same post that those numbers are exaggerated...I said that 600 currency is a bit exaggerated for an average run right in the FIRST post. And also stated that 400 is probably more average...600 is only AVERAGE based on the math having low runs with 200 and high runs with 1000(which I said is not happening on a regular basis) SIX HUNDRED IS ONLY THE MATH. Reality shows that 400 is probably more average...still you don't seem to notice that and blabber how I would say that 600 is average, although I didn't...and once again that 1000 currency run was a ONE timer! I quit FFXI 4 years ago...there is no actual proof...as I said before...it's based on luck, we got lucky that one try...thats it, I don't get it what's so hard to just accept that. I am not saying that 1000 currency should be something everyone have gotten or w/e...it was a Full Bastok Clear with 45 people splitting up in 2 camps heading different directions to trigger the NMs at the mine entrance and the north east corner above the AH to be faster and actually be able to clear the area completely. We didn't do this that often, but it happened once in a while(when there were enough people online to do it)

I don't really know what I am supposed to write now, as I am tired of repeating myself a third time.

PS: My WoW Guild for example got EIGHT Warglaives of Azzinoth til WotLK was released. 3 Main Hands and 5 Off-Hands...we have been among the Guilds with the best Drop Rate on Warglaives of All-Time...it HAPPENS...other Guilds didn't even get one(*cough* Nihilum*cough* although they killed Illidan like twice as much as we did...

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 1:10pm by Shezard
#299 Aug 19 2009 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney, Defender of Justice wrote:

Again, provide your proof instead of just saying "This is what I got". Also, by what you're saying, if a linkshell farmed currency that hardcore from day one, by your math you should be able to get a complete relic weapon, in 2-4 months. Seeing how final stage is 10,000 currency and all the stages combined before that are around 8,000 depending on the relic.

Edited, Aug 18th 2009 4:29pm by EndlessJourney


To be fair, I've seen 3-4 100 pieces drop in Dynamis Sandy before and sometimes 1-2 pieces in back to back runs. So it's not COMPLETELY out of the question he gets as much currency as he says. Being a game built around luck, some people just have it better than others, no matter how rare something may be.
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#300 Aug 19 2009 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Hocus-- No. Just, no. Give it up already.

People differ wildly in skill. We've established that I'm by far better than you at Rock Band/ Guitar Hero as I can play most songs near perfectly on Expert. It's not a game of pure hand-eye coordination. It also depends on conditioning, memorization, rhythm, reflex, and mental acuity, all of which, believe it or not, are skills.

Quote:
Fighting games usually just come down to a button mash. Its people that can just pick up the game and smash buttons and do lucky combos to win. I don't see button mashing as skill.


There is not a single good fighting game out there for which this is true. Even in a game like Super Smash Bros., you will find that there are people who are amazing, and no matter how well you mash buttons, they will destroy you every single time. People run ******* statistical analysis on this game. Since online mode, people run online tournaments where they can compete against the best people in the game, and those people often hold their title as the best for very long periods of time. Some noob who thinks that they can win with a little common sense will get their *** beat.

And there's nothing "common sense" about FFXI. There's a saying that common sense is only common sense if it's common. How many people do you think can just pick up and play FFXI successfully without doing any research at all? If you'd have to research something, it's clearly not common sense.

@Firefeng- I admire your ability to write with such color and texture, while at the same time conveying nothing of any merit. Truly your posts are like wonderful abstract murals.

i.e., strawman arguments and failing to acknowledge that there isn't a responsible way to enjoy most aspects of the game have already been done to death in this thread. Granted, in far less legible a manner, but still, we've covered it thrice by now.
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#301 Aug 19 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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KPBeta wrote:
Since you clearly read English in ways that many of us never will, please quote me in the original post where I:

—Absolve the individual of guilt in the situation.
—Attribute full accountability to Square Enix for the well being of the individual.

I have done neither. Until you find such evidence, you have no evidence, because your argument is centered around attacking a point I neither made nor implied.


Since you clearly convey English in ways too abstruse to make a defensible point, your posts being nebulous accusations rife with opinions and hollow demi-justifications, please tell me when you're not absolving an individual of guilt, in whatever degree, when you level accusations of irresponsibility at Square Enix for the actions of a mere individual. However, since you have your own ironically quaint methods of comprehension and conveniently skirting the justification of your position by fomenting a false dilemma, answer me these:

—How is attributing partial blame to Square Enix for their 'flawed system' not absolution, in any degree, of an individual's culpability for what you are claiming is irresponsibility?
—When have I ever suggested you attributed full accountability to Square Enix, when my point has been only that Square Enix is not accountable, at all, in opposition of your view that Square Enix is partially accountable?
—When are you going to define "responsibility", particularly "social responsibility"?
—Why are MMOs "flawed systems"? (Do try to go beyond something facetious like claiming all systems are imperfect, here, by indulging me with the specificity of your personal qualms.)
—What is the "political, social, and cultural context" of said system?

Bear in mind that I'm under no obligation to justify myself, yet. As the creator of your claims, I'm sure you're intelligent enough to realize where the burden of evidence lies first. I'll worry about justifying myself as soon as I see a modicum of evidential support regarding your own position - at least insofar as I can illustrate that an individual turning off their computer and walking away is an utter counterpoint to everything you have said, considering I always thought of it as simple and self-evident, and in no need of proper justification as such.

Unless, as I suspect, you're merely espousing an opinion and not a defensible point, in which case we can both agree to disagree and be on our merry way.

Kachi wrote:
I admire your ability to write with such color and texture, while at the same time conveying nothing of any merit. Truly your posts are like wonderful abstract murals.

i.e., strawman arguments and failing to acknowledge that there isn't a responsible way to enjoy most aspects of the game have already been done to death in this thread. Granted, in far less legible a manner, but still, we've covered it thrice by now.


You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to rebut baseless claims. Now why should I do that? I'm merely pointing out that such claims are without merit until justified, and that until they are everyone is magnificently meat-spinning on their own hubris, which by this time must be making the involved parties mighty sore, seeing as you've all done it thrice and still managed to avoid tangible cogency.

Again, if it's just your opinion, say so. But do not allude to some factual reality wherein ideal societies shelter an interconnected, universal responsibility between every member unless you're going to be forthcoming with the justification for your delightfully puerile rape of utilitarianism.

Edit: Even though the Dynamis issue is a strawman tangent, I've never seen more than 800 in currency drop from a full clear. Normally it's closer to 300-400. It's been a while, though, so the memory's hazy. Besides, arguing about currency drop rate is unimportant to either side's point...

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 8:23am by firefeng
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