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Craft anywhere?Follow

#1 Aug 09 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I kind of doubt it...

It seems like crafting won't be tied to crystals as it was in XI. There was mention on the official site of "upon arriving at home, Leeroy puts aside his fishing rod and takes up his trusty hammer, blacksmithery having been one of his passions."

In reality, cooks need a kitchen. Blacksmiths need hot coals and lots of other miscellaneous equipment. [Al]chemists need a lab. Woodworkers need a shop with saws and stuff. Boneworkers need... something to mess around with bones with.

What I'm getting at... I have a hunch that crafting is something that will only take place inside towns and, probably, within the equivalent to the crafting guilds of XI. The days of field synthing pineapple juice may be over, I'm afraid.

Thoughts?
#2 Aug 09 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I hate to use WoW as an example again but it's something I liked and would like to see done, you had to go to a forge to actually work on and make items which I found cool. I'm thinking they may have the same like in Bastok you actually used the furnace and everything.
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#3 Aug 09 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I've never played WoW, but yeah... that's kind of what I'm thinking. I kind of like the idea.
#4 Aug 09 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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from the looks on the pictures for the blacksmith he just happened to have an anvil and such and in the story they didn't say anything about him going to a forge or anything. I mean I would love to be able to sit in a field and blacksmith but I think they might limit what your able to do, and you might have to obtain materials like wood or coal by farming or maybe quests? who knows they could bring back crystals but wouldn't make too much sense.
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#5 Aug 09 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Personaly I've never been fond of either crafting system, too much massproduction with all the real crafting game being in selling the items.. Haveing to be at a fordge to fordge metal isn't a bad thing but I hope there is more to it than WoW's one click and wait system.

I liked Vanguards crafting system, you actualy got to make the item instead of magicly poofing the item up from stuff you have on you. I say give us a minigame for crafting instead of marketing and calling it crafting.
#6 Aug 09 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Default
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I think crystals will play a different role in XIV based on the artwork with the belt with crystals stored like shurikens or something. Coal, etc., I would expect to be able to buy for cheap from the guild merchant.

The "upon arriving at home" thing is what makes me think crafting may be a strictly in-town affair. And, apparently, we're actually equipping "weapons" to craft this time around (hammer for blacksmith... spoon and knife [?] for cook... saw or axe [?] for wood)...

I think crystals and crafting are going to be separated this time around.

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Point taken, but marketing and getting rich is half the fun! ****, I got a good chunk of change just by buying from NPC and selling on AH.


Edited, Aug 10th 2009 12:50am by EbenezerSpooge
#7 Aug 09 2009 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't like any skills in FFXI crafting, fishing or anything but had to to progress. I'm hoping it's much easier now to get involved with it. I don't want it to easy or the RMT's will come out to play lol
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#8 Aug 09 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Point taken, but marketing and getting rich is half the fun! ****, I got a good chunk of change just by buying from NPC and selling on AH.


That doesn't mean that crafting its self has to be dumbed down and bland :P

I know some people have more fun playing the marketing game and makeing money but most people have never even tried a game that actualy makes the act of crafting fun. It makes me sad :(

The feeling I got from hammering out the parts for my first usefull weapon and painstakenly assembling them into a beautifull kojani dagger for my rogue in vanguard was fantastic. I knew many crafters in that game that actualy took pride in what they did and never had to spam for work, top crafters in that game (at least early on) were sought out for thier skills and some, like boat and house makers, had waiting lists.

Nuf rambling hehe, I fully suport the idea of a crafting system vrs a marketting system.
#9 Aug 10 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Crafting definitely needs to be some kind of minigame. Personally I want a crafting system where you actually design things, in a graphic designer type way (but with limitations, of course), and the value of your crafted items depends on the quality and demand for your work. But a decent minigame is fine with me and much easier to do.

Anyway, I think I might prefer a system where you can't craft anywhere, but the info from the teaser site about Leeroy was probably just flavor text. They're trying to make it sound like ol' Leeroy had a big day, so naturally he has to return to town after a hard day of adventuring.

There wasn't much about the crafting system that I did like in FFXI, other than the fact that it made me rich. Speculating about HQ rates was fun for a while until it became apparent that there was actually really nothing to it.
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#10 Aug 10 2009 at 7:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I liked FFXI's crafting system of HQ's mainly because they added a variance to the regular crafting system.

WoW agreed... much much too easy. One click 100% success is never fun... it's like saying as long as you do it you will win just like everyone else over there. Everyone also leveled a craft because it provided them with personal benefits which i totally disagree with... crafting should be about providing a service not because it gives you character a bonus another one doesn't have.

Crystals were just too dependant in the old craft system. Granted it made them worth a bit for newbies to scrounge a bit of cash but otherwise it was too difficult to craft due to inventory limitations and your complete dependance upon 1 single thing for crafting anything. On top of that it made the drop rates for crafting items significantly lower. If anyone noticed once you are done all the soloing stuff and move onto parties in Valkurm the items that dropped are much lower, then divied out to 6 people you almost never got a full inventory unless you never went back to town. The steady influx of items will keep crafting strong but in FFXI it was so far and between for a lot of stuff it drove prices up, then the prices of the reg gear shot up and even HQ gear was astronomical... kind of the opposite of WoW when you think about it. :) lol

Edit*

Minigame is a dumb idea. The whole HQ WAS the chance part of the minigame. Granted they could add a whole ton of more variances(like WoW's enchanting system) then it would be much more viable. But adding a 'game' chance to everything you craft is the worst idea i can imagine. I loved FFXI crafting for the simple reason that i could do it whenever, whereever and i knew what my rough chances were.

Sorry i am just very much against minigames inside games i think they absolutely ruin it. Why don't we just run more casino's in Jueno.. basically what you are suggesting which i HATE.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 9:06am by boriss

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 9:06am by boriss
#11 Aug 10 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Minigame is a dumb idea. The whole HQ WAS the chance part of the minigame. Granted they could add a whole ton of more variances(like WoW's enchanting system) then it would be much more viable. But adding a 'game' chance to everything you craft is the worst idea i can imagine. I loved FFXI crafting for the simple reason that i could do it whenever, whereever and i knew what my rough chances were.

Sorry i am just very much against minigames inside games i think they absolutely ruin it. Why don't we just run more casino's in Jueno.. basically what you are suggesting which i HATE.


That's not what anyone is suggesting at all. The term minigame isn't referring to something random within it, like you see with most console games (Blitzball in FFX, Chocobo racing in FFVII, etc). We are using the term minigame to refer to a small portion of the total game having direct links to the normal game. This small portion is unique to its own part, as far as gameplay goes.

Like, walking into the blacksmith shop and settling down to craft a sword. You'll have to bang it in all the right places (no jokes). They could possibly add speed bonuses and combos. The problem is that they'd likely need two different games--one for the PS3 and one for the PC, because a click would be WAY easier than using an analog stick.

Or, like in FFXI, with fishing. It was a "minigame" in that it wasn't just a press-button-get-or-don't-get-item. You actually had to do something to get it, but everything about the game was part of XI. You'd get the reward in Vanadiel and you'd need to gather equipment in Vanadiel.

A minigame like you are thinking of it would be something like Tetra Master, if you could zone into it from XI and it didn't give any rewards in VD.

[EDIT]

And the "HQ" system wasn't part of the minigame. Crafting had no minigame. It was a complete click and wait thing. That's not a minigame. Were there variables? Yes. But you could get HQs without ever paying any of them any attention.

And since when does WoW's enchanting system have any variances? It is, 100%, a click button-click-weapon/armor-and-wait system. You never fail. You will always get what you selected on the gear.

Furthermore, none of the professions were unique in the crafting process. ALL of them used one (or both) of the same two formulas. One exception--you couldn't make enchants in bulk. And I'm not sure even that is still in effect.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 11:20am by idiggory
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#12 Aug 10 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Default
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I never said they had variances i said if they could add it into their crafting like wow does with enchanting(a variance of changing weapons/items since FFXI ONLY did this with HQ's)...

Whatever.

Ah that game would work for sure. It would definely lower bot rates because finding a fishing bot was so easy the same would be true with crafting in FF14. Although i must say... i loved fishing too. It was great to see the weather go by while doing your fishing... and you had a chance of fishing up monsters and stuff but those were calculated risks you could avoid.

#13 Aug 10 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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When it comes to crafting, there's a few things I draw judgement on and my opinions from:

In FFXI, the required effort was there, but the "broken" system of crystal synthesis mixed with the HQ factor didn't justify blowing expensive items on a failed synth. Likewise, because of the time requirement to level a specific craft, it was easy for RMT to dominate certain markets (specifically consumables) by simply churning out craftable foods day in and day out to no end with no limitation on supplies (most likely coming in from other farmers in league). Sure, a normal player could do this with help from their friends, but this can be a big issue to handle.

I personally like the crafting system in EQII. The mini-game arguement is moot...you're playing a "game" and effort and input required to craft an item can simply be considered "part of the game". It's not a mini-game, you're not going from killing mobs and leveling your character to playing Kirby in a platforming mini-game to determine your craftable items quality level.

The idea of A) Using required platforms (stove, weave, etc) to accomplish crafting B) Accessibility to "own" these platforms in ones home and C) Varying quality/quantity depending on reaction gameplay is fair, logical, and can be a lot of fun and immersive.

WoW's no-variance crafting system leads the "worth" of any craft to lie in the bonuses it provides (ie. Fur Lining enchants for leatherworkers, extra gem slots for Blacksmiths, etc). This is pointless and reduces the worth of "crafting" in a community sense to ruins. Crafters should have worth within the gaming community of an MMO. I hope FFXIV continues to do so.

I personally think of FFXI's system and remember there being a few dedicated people on each server that could be entrusted to do the big synths. They were billionaires in the sense, because people tipped well and knew they could rely on that person to make their item (or have a favorable HQ chance). This is a good thing, this "should" exist. I just hope they add a little less chance (while not doing away with it) and add some interactive elements to make it a little more interesting and immersive.
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#14 Aug 10 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Go look up the old Star Wars Galaxies crafting system if you want to see crafting done right.
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#15 Aug 10 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Likewise, because of the time requirement to level a specific craft, it was easy for RMT to dominate certain markets (specifically consumables) by simply churning out craftable foods day in and day out to no end with no limitation on supplies (most likely coming in from other farmers in league). Sure, a normal player could do this with help from their friends, but this can be a big issue to handle.

I don't think I follow. No limitation on supplies is precisely what makes it impossible to dominate a market.

There are things that can be done to fight RMT, but at the end of the day they'll be where the money is. The only gameplay mechanic that can chase them away is one that kills the profit in an activity.
#16 Aug 10 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Default
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For me personally, minigames get boring and tedious after the 10th time you've done them. Even if its a great minigame, with the amount of times you make a synthesis in your life (if your a crafter), it gets tiresome.
#17 Aug 10 2009 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
I don't think I follow. No limitation on supplies is precisely what makes it impossible to dominate a market.


Take Sushi when it was first introduced to the game. Botted fisherman supplied Sole & Squid that fueled botted Cooks to churn out Sushi and flood AH's, keeping the price lucrative for them (RMT) but not for the average cook that fished their items and purchased their mats. It did both in ruining profit for legit players while fueling their monopoly of that food market for a good period of time. That's the example I'm using.
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#18 Aug 10 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I think a system that mimic's real life should be implemented into crafting. Blacksmithing without tools would be nearly impossible, however making a wild hare steak or sewing a piece of armor together are both possible and easily portable.

I think this would add a nice tough on realism and keep most players happy.
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#19 Aug 10 2009 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
EbenezerSpooge wrote:
There was mention on the official site of "upon arriving at home, Leeroy puts aside his fishing rod and takes up his trusty hammer, blacksmithery having been one of his passions."


While I agree with your second paragraph, that being:

EbenezerSpooge wrote:
In reality, cooks need a kitchen. Blacksmiths need hot coals and lots of other miscellaneous equipment. [Al]chemists need a lab. Woodworkers need a shop with saws and stuff. Boneworkers need... something to mess around with bones with.


Bear in mind that the fact that Leeroy did not start smithing until he arrived at home does not necessarily imply that he could not have done it on the way home. We don't know for sure that we need to be in our residence, or even in a town, to start crafting. It's one of those things we won't know until either they decide to tell us or the game is released.

Personally, I plan on doing cooking and fishing, in the hopes that I can at least cook and eat what I catch.
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#20 Aug 10 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I prefer a crafting system where the end product varies in quality based on ones craft skill and/or characteristics/traits/abilities one imbues with the product. Either that or allow send products to be modified like one would modify a their PC, clothes, car, etc.
#21 Aug 10 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I would like crafting more intimate and expandable when ingredients are involved. Item results that have a tree like branching off options. And being able to use that item and make it better... consistantly. But always having a higher percentage of failure with a constantly retooled item the farther up the tree it's improved (stacked upon). Almost where there is no ceiling. This would give so many unique items and the truly great pieces are ones that take so much time and effort on the crafters part. Not of just gathering rare ingredients but stacking the item over and over with new ingredients without failing.

Being able to purchase crafting environments for our mog houses. Install a kitchen, ect. That way players aren't force to congregate in one small crafting area... I really want my home to act like a home and have it possible to have all the things I like to do. Even have a small "backyard" so I could actually garden. Not in Pots.

I really hope SE thinks of blooming/expanding results. Something that is more then a quarter being flipped in the air and calling "heads" or "tails" before it lands.
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#22 Aug 12 2009 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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For me personally, minigames get boring and tedious after the 10th time you've done them. Even if its a great minigame, with the amount of times you make a synthesis in your life (if your a crafter), it gets tiresome.


This here is the challenge. But, when you think about it, is that any different than devising a leveling system?

The thing is--the game HAS to evolve. It can't be the same thing for 100 skill levels. The game needs to change as you "level."

And, hopefully, it changes a lot based on ingredients. Like, a chef may need to saute in one recipe, but grill in another. A goldsmith will sometimes need to cut jewels and, other times, work with metal wire.

This could help it from being boring.

Plus, if crafting was given a lot of attention, it could constantly evolve.
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#23 Aug 12 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Go look up the old Star Wars Galaxies crafting system if you want to see crafting done right.


Quoted for Truth!

Star Wars Galaxies (Pre Combat Upgrade/NGE) had one of the best crafting systems I have ever seen in an MMO.

It looks to me like XIV will be going more towards a SWG PreCU type system and making each craft discipline its own class.

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#24 Aug 12 2009 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Doesn't this defeat the purpose of the armory system, where you can switch whenever you want and get to work?
#25 Aug 12 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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A minigame absolutely has to be fleshed out of course. As someone said, it can't be the same thing for 100 levels. As you get better, there should be new challenges to overcome.

Crafting was pretty much a joke in XI, and what was worse was that as simple as it was, people still didn't really understand it. The only thing that mattered for your success rate was that your skill was equal to or above the requirement, and then you still had a 5% break rate. The only thing that mattered for your HQ rate was if all the required skills were 51, 31, or 11 above the synth, which gave HQ rates of 50%, 25%, and 10% respectively. There. In two sentences I explained all there really is to know about crafting in FFXI. Maybe another sentence on the exact failure rates when you're below cap and the effects of support and gear to complete the tutorial. The rest is all business sense and grinding.

So yeah, I think I prefer a system that requires a little more effort and involvement.
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#26 Aug 12 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Default
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This here is the challenge. But, when you think about it, is that any different than devising a leveling system?

The thing is--the game HAS to evolve. It can't be the same thing for 100 skill levels. The game needs to change as you "level."


Quote:
A minigame absolutely has to be fleshed out of course. As someone said, it can't be the same thing for 100 levels. As you get better, there should be new challenges to overcome.


Im all for making it evolve, but not for evolving through minigames. I always looked at crafting as a relaxing experience, and just because its simple and can be summed up rather quickly doesn't mean it sucked. After an intense hnm battle or a party (or mission or raid,etc), I like to relax and craft until I log off. I don't want to be here playing the same (or a slightly different) minigame a hundred plus times before I log off.

I wouldn't mind playing a minigame before you could level up or something (or every 5 or 10 levels). But, playing a minigame every synthesis is tedious and boring (to me) even if its a great or changing minigame. Maybe every 10 levels you have to complete a minigame to move on, along with a certain task. I would be ok with something like that if you could continue to craft, but just not level up until you completed the minigame.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 9:49pm by HocusP
#27 Aug 12 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Well, the purpose of making it in to a minigame is to make it -less- tedious and boring. So let me get this straight... you actually think minigames are tedious and boring compared to crafting in FFXI? Where you just pick items from a list, hit a button, and wait? And you find that relaxing?

I guess for me, the game is supposed to be fun and stimulating. It's relaxing in a sense, but if I really want to do something relaxing, I would just... relax.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you can reject all minigames out of hand as being tedious and boring. You have never played a fun or "relaxing" minigame? Because I can think of few things less fun than crafting in FFXI, and a thousand things more relaxing.
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#28 Aug 12 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's my thoughts on this matter.

Yes, let crafting take place in the field. If you really feel you need to add a penalty for doing so, make it take take longer to make than it would to make it in town, where you have all the proper tools you need for the job.

As to the other topic going on in this thread, I think Kachi pretty much summed up my feelings toward the issue with this:

Kachi wrote:
So yeah, I think I prefer a system that requires a little more effort and involvement.


But, is a minigame the best way to remedy that? I mean, sure i think it'd be fun.....for the first hour. It'll probably feel like a chore after a while.

Solution:
Allow crafters to prioritize which aspects to focus on when making a particular weapon/armor.

Weapons:
  • Speed
  • Attack Power
  • Accuracy
  • Durability

  • Armor:
  • Defense
  • Stamina/HP/Vit(Assuming the "no exp" system, it's most likely that your HP pool is tied to your armor somehow)
  • Elemental Resistance
  • Durability

  • With this system, you have a more involved method of making an item, but if you choose to just churn out gear for points, it's as simple as checking a "Create All" box after your initial choice. Or even better, allow the crafter to save templates on how they create items.

    Want more depth? Add a crystal! And not like FFXI where you needed a specific crystal to even craft the item. What i'm thinking of is something like adding a crystal infuses the item with special properties. Whether you should only allow this to be done in town or not, well I'll leave that to you.

    Example, Leeroy just made Breastplate using an Earth Crystal, giving it a small chance to gain "stoneskin" when taking damage. He makes the same Breastplate, this time using a Wind Crystal, and gets a "blink" effect instead.

    But, this will make it too hard to search for gear in the AH.

    Not really, You could add a Prefix and a Suffix to the base name of the item to indicate what kind of enhancements are on it. Say the item (let's say the breastplate again, because i like that word) focuses on elemental resistance, with an earth crystal infused in it. It's now called Spellwarding Breastplate of the Mountain or a weapon that focuses on speed (using no crystal) is called Swift <weapon name>, using no suffix.

    All one would need to do is search for the base item's name, and if the AH permits, use a filter function to search for specific enhancements. Simple.

    To summarize: keep the mechanics simple enough, but give it more depth than a point-and-click factory line.
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    #29 Aug 12 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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    Well, like I kind of pointed out earlier there are two very differant schools of thought when it comes to crafting systems.

    Marketeers- Marketing crafters want super simple crafting systems they can, prefferably, set and let run to bulk craft with the intention of makeing money. The acts of making money, messing with the market prices, and fluanting thier cash seem to be thier scource of entertainment from crafting in general.

    Craftsmen- Craftsmen tend to get more fun out of the act of making the items, to that end they tend to enjoy crafting systems with a bit more play so they can try to bild just they (or thier friends) want to use. Though they are not beyond taking pleasure working the market, it is the act of creation that tends to drive these crafters forward.

    Now, not everyone fits into these catagories and there are plenty of grey areas but in the end a game can only realy cater to one side or the other depending what type of system they impliment.

    Disclaimer: The above post is entirely made up of my own opinnions formed after observing several games and crafters in them. If you find my assertions offencive in anyway, to bad... nanny nanny boo boo ;P
    #30 Aug 12 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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    But, is a minigame the best way to remedy that? I mean, sure i think it'd be fun.....for the first hour. It'll probably feel like a chore after a while.


    While I understand this sentiment, I think it shows some imagination limitations. I mean, there are lots of "mini-games" that are by all rights completely viable full games, and the Final Fantasy titles have been somewhat famous for this, i.e., Blitzball, card games, and Chocobo digging... these were relatively simple games that still allowed for hours of enjoyment. Naturally a major element of an MMO should be quite a bit more fleshed out than these.

    I mean, just because it's a minigame doesn't mean it has to be any less engaging than the "main" game. Fighting monsters is arguably little more than a series of minigames. It avoids that connotation by virtue of being the main event. I would suspect crafting to be something of a main event as well this time around, in light of the amount of attention it has garnered.

    @zurinadrg: I think that's an apt summary. I was able to reap some enjoyment from crafting in XI because I did enjoy the market elements to an extent. I can understand why some people would view a minigame as something that merely interferes with that aspect. That said, it does not prohibit it.

    And personally, I think the ideal system allows the minigame elements to be optional at the expense of quality. For example, you may skip the minigame to mass produce subpar items, but higher quality items will require your attention and effort.
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    #31 Aug 13 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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    Crafting is a large part of what I love about FFXI, not that I don't love alot of other things.

    I'm sure it will be different in FFXIV, but I hope whatever they come up with keeps me as involved as FFXI. I love being able to synth food and juice as needed and craft/desynth in the field as I get items. I hope they don't change it so you have to run to town to craft. I disliked that in Wow, LOTRO, Vanguard, EQ.

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