Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

How "on the fly" are we talking?Follow

#1 Aug 11 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
334 posts
According to an interview from 1up found at http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3175435

This armory system isn't exactly like the "job" concept that most Final Fantasy games work under. "The way I see it, the player can define how his own job works," says Komoto. "For example, if you have the Swordsman skill, that's enough to let you play by yourself, but if you've also raised your Sorcerer skill enough to unlock that skill's healing magic, that'll make solo play a lot easier for you. You can carry enough equipment around at any given time to change your style freely, and the system makes this easy by letting you change sets of equipment all at once."

This can mean one of two things, either:

you can have access to your other disciplines skills at a maybe watered down version no matter what class you are/weapon you are using.
or

simply change you equipment cast a spell and change back immediately.

I could see either way working in all honesty. Until I had read this post I had looked at the armory system as changing your "Class" for an entire event, not micro managing a need for a cure etc. If we really have access to simply changing weapon for additional skills or having all skills at all times, this game could become quite intense and enjoyable as it lets me experience a lot of roles :o

Edited, Aug 11th 2009 9:36pm by bleystrife
____________________________
And all this just to say you hate me? Why thank you :)
#2 Aug 11 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
777 posts
My impression was that there would be some sort of cooldown or sickness associated with changing between disciplines rapidly.

I received that impression, due to the similar comment about how teleporting would be pretty much unrestricted, but that you could expect to have your character's health to be impacted if they teleported too frequently.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that would likewise apply to the discipline system.
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#3 Aug 11 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
****
5,684 posts
I'd assume that some sort of timed "paralysis" would come along with switching jobs/roles.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#4 Aug 11 2009 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
334 posts
A short cooldown long enough to make changing not plausible during fighting but work for outside of fighting would be more than fine with me. Like under a minute? Yea I could deffinitely see that :)
____________________________
And all this just to say you hate me? Why thank you :)
#5 Aug 11 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
****
5,684 posts
bleystrife wrote:
A short cooldown long enough to make changing not plausible during fighting but work for outside of fighting would be more than fine with me. Like under a minute? Yea I could deffinitely see that :)

I think this is a pretty good guess.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#6 Aug 11 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
*
177 posts
Switching weapons could be like switching spells on BLU in FF11. Or maybe you get some TP or MP penalty when you switch weapons, just like how you lose TP for switching weapons in FF11.
____________________________
People don't accept the truth if it's typed in a tone unsympathetic to them. It doesn't make something any less true if someone you don't like is the one to enlighten you.
#7 Aug 11 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Question:

If you swap disciplines from swordsman to 'whatevermage' and you cast a self-buff (such as protect) on yourself, would it allow you to keep said buff when switching back to swordsman?

It would really encourage people to level different jobs, but if the buffs have a timer of less than 10 minutes it would become pretty tedious to switch disciplines to rebuff when soloing.

Actually, it sounds alot like the FFXI '/heal' system of getting your hp/mp back... only worse.

You fight a couple enemies as swordsman, so you switch to a magic job to heal yourself... then you wait for the 'timer' to run out so you can switch back to swordsman and continue leveling. Then you fight 2 or 3 and repeat. (as solo)

Either that or you level both jobs at once.. play your swordsman until you are low on hp, then play your mage until you are low on mp. That sounds more fun.

But you will still be getting up to 'get a drink/use the bathroom/add to the grind' every 2-3 fights (or even 10) while you wait for that timer to expire on the job-change.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#8 Aug 11 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
From the way I understood it, you would have gear that you would use to advance a particular discipline and as you advance that discipline, you unlock skills associated with that discipline that you can then use freely. Referencing their example, I didn't interpret it to mean that you have to equip sorcerer gear in order to cast a heal...you just have to have previously advanced your sorcerer discipline far enough to unlock the healing spells. It would make sense that those heals would be more effective if you're wearing caster gear, but I didn't see anything to say that you can't cast healing spells if you're wearing swordsman gear.

With that in mind, the gear swap thing would likely be a convenience so that you can level different disciplines while you're out doing whatever quite easily because you'll be able to carry the gear you need for each discipline and swap it quickly and easily. In that scenario, penalties for switching gear would be (almost) moot. I wouldn't expect people to be swapping gear mid-combat like is done in FFXI...the gear swaps would primarily be between fights depending on what it was you were trying to do.
#9 Aug 12 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Quote:
the gear swaps would primarily be between fights depending on what it was you were trying to do.


Given that you would swap gear to change your tactics, and given that there will be a 'timer' on gear swaps (just speculation from this thread)... wouldn't that amount to something just as 'time-wasting' as the healing system for soloing in FFXI? Only if there is a timer on gear swaps or a penalty on swapping gear that somehow debuffs your char, and also only if items like 'Potion' are as irrelevant as they were in FFXI.

Say I make a character named 'Leeroy'.

I take leeroy out to do some leveling on Swordsman, but after killing a few rabbits I find myself low on health. Fortunately, Leeroy is a powerful 'whatevermage', so I use my staff to change Leeroy into a 'whatevermage' and cure Leeroy to full hp, as well as cast protect on him. But I have a wait timer until I can change back into a Swordsman. So I am left with 2 options: Wait for the timer to expire and have Leeroy /spin-on-it or I could kill the same low-level rabbits with Leeroy's 'whatevermage', likely doing nothing to raise his 'whatevermage' skills and just removing the same rabbits I wanted to use to skill up Leeroy's Swordsman.

I like being able to swap jobs on the fly, and I really think there should be a certain penalty for it that prevents a character from doing it so often. I just think there is a flaw in the plan here.

Like I said earlier, I would rather just have affordable potions or the ability to /rest than have to swap jobs 'on the fly'. If I get invited to go do a mission or get invited into a high level party for grinding, then I can swap jobs and not care about the timer.

This just shouldn't become a mechanism where you swap jobs, or more importantly ARE REQUIRED TO SWAP JOBS, on a regular basis to simply play. Switching between your high level job and low level job is fine. But it would **** me off to be soloing in a decent area and have to wait a few minuted just because I saw a nice tree to chop down, or a lake I wanted to fish.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#10 Aug 12 2009 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good
***
1,446 posts
It's probably only allowed outside of combat. That would be my guess.
____________________________
Kyansaroo - Kujata
Windurst Rank 10
Tarutaru
BLM 75 / WHM 75 / BST 75 / RDM 75 / BRD 75
Next to 75: COR 47 / SCH 58
RotZ: Complete
CoP: Complete
ToAU: In-Progress
WoTG: In-Progress
#11 Aug 12 2009 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
**
817 posts
Quote:
I take leeroy out to do some leveling on Swordsman, but after killing a few rabbits I find myself low on health. Fortunately, Leeroy is a powerful 'whatevermage', so I use my staff to change Leeroy into a 'whatevermage' and cure Leeroy to full hp


problem is : either switching "job" restore your hp/mp like in ff11, very unlikely, either you become whatevermage, but still are low life, and more important, have no mp(unless mp is used for normal abilities instead of just magic... still, you were low.lv, so you wouldn't have a lot of mp anyway)

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 8:30am by DarkBiBi
#12 Aug 12 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
777 posts
DarkBiBi wrote:
Quote:
I take leeroy out to do some leveling on Swordsman, but after killing a few rabbits I find myself low on health. Fortunately, Leeroy is a powerful 'whatevermage', so I use my staff to change Leeroy into a 'whatevermage' and cure Leeroy to full hp


problem is : either switching "job" restore your hp/mp like in ff11, very unlikely, either you become whatevermage, but still are low life, and more important, have no mp(unless mp is used for normal abilities instead of just magic... still, you were low.lv, so you wouldn't have a lot of mp anyway)

1. MP is tied to percentages which changing jobs. AKA you are down to only 30/120MP as a WAR, but you class change into a WHM, and now have 200/800MP, enough to cast Cure.

2. You can change jobs in combat.

3. Sickness occurs if you change job more than X number of times in Y minutes to prevent changing too frequently, and will stack and make your character increasingly weak until it wears off.

It's the only logical explaination given what they've told us so far.

Edited, Aug 12th 2009 9:04am by Karelyn
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#13 Aug 12 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Default
**
817 posts
Quote:
2. You can change jobs in combat.


they just never said that from what i know :x

anyway from what we know, it may as well not be based on mp but on something like ff8 magic <.<

*unwanted speculation* : "you can use use magic when you have it stolen to an enemy, but it don't save when you change, so if you have to switch to mage during a combat, you must steal healing spels to the mob to be able to cure"

this silly speculation may works from what SE told us, so please don't claim your speculaton is "the only logical explanation" <.<
#14 Aug 12 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
the gear swaps would primarily be between fights depending on what it was you were trying to do.


Given that you would swap gear to change your tactics, and given that there will be a 'timer' on gear swaps (just speculation from this thread)... wouldn't that amount to something just as 'time-wasting' as the healing system for soloing in FFXI? Only if there is a timer on gear swaps or a penalty on swapping gear that somehow debuffs your char, and also only if items like 'Potion' are as irrelevant as they were in FFXI.

Say I make a character named 'Leeroy'.

I take leeroy out to do some leveling on Swordsman, but after killing a few rabbits I find myself low on health. Fortunately, Leeroy is a powerful 'whatevermage', so I use my staff to change Leeroy into a 'whatevermage' and cure Leeroy to full hp, as well as cast protect on him. But I have a wait timer until I can change back into a Swordsman. So I am left with 2 options: Wait for the timer to expire and have Leeroy /spin-on-it or I could kill the same low-level rabbits with Leeroy's 'whatevermage', likely doing nothing to raise his 'whatevermage' skills and just removing the same rabbits I wanted to use to skill up Leeroy's Swordsman.


You seem to be operating on the assumption you would have to change jobs to use the spells. What I'm suggesting is that you wouldn't have to. In that case, job switching penalties would be...moot.
#15 Aug 12 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
**
432 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

You seem to be operating on the assumption you would have to change jobs to use the spells. What I'm suggesting is that you wouldn't have to. In that case, job switching penalties would be...moot.


Yeah this is what I understood too. That lets say you go out and level your staff skill up until cure1. Then you decide that mage users suck and decide to go swordsman. Since you learned cure1 while leveling your staff you now have access to it (kinda like pld) and probably because you leveled your staff skill up until cure1 you have some mp too.

I also got this idea from when he is talking about leeroy leveling his swordsman skill outside the city-state and his friends ask him to go adventuring on a harder place. He then switches to his more advanced mage job and goes out to help them. (thats what I recall, I may have interpreted it that way)

But maybe I just read it wrong (not a native english speaker)
____________________________
Kyunalesca
Lakshmi

"should you punch a six-year old girl in the face -- or should you punch her in the stomach? Hmm, that's a toughie."

Battlecat:
"I've always felt the best way to respond to someone calmly presenting their point of view is to fly off the handle and insult everyone who doesn't think like exactly like myself as well."
#16 Aug 12 2009 at 10:39 PM Rating: Default
**
424 posts
Quote:

You seem to be operating on the assumption you would have to change jobs to use the spells. What I'm suggesting is that you wouldn't have to. In that case, job switching penalties would be...moot.


God I hope so. I was just playing along with whole idea of changing jobs on the fly. (which would have to require some sort of timer).

My ideal is using the 'blu points' system to allow players to equip multiple job skills at once, at a penalty if they are a melee and equipping magic abilities and vice-versa.

I hate the 'see-saw' proposal though. I would rather have the game balanced by ANY other mechanism. (just throwing that out there)

If 'on the fly' means we can use a few abilities from our leveled disciplines and select which ones we want to use beforehand, then I love the idea.

If it means changing jobs 'on the fly' to cast a spell, then change again to go back to leveling... then I hate it.

'Leeroy' never seemed to mention that his high level as a 'whatevermage' helped out his leveling his Swordsman in the official site. I don't know if that means anything, but it seems to me that if 'on the fly' job switching was as integral to the gameplay as having the ability to use the spells from another job or being able to swap jobs quickly that he might have mentioned it.

But it is 'Leeroy' after all... perhaps he was just the perfect example of the casual gamer who runs in head first with no understanding of basic game mechanics.


EDIT:

Quote:
I didn't interpret it to mean that you have to equip sorcerer gear in order to cast a heal...you just have to have previously advanced your sorcerer discipline far enough to unlock the healing spells.


I like that, but it needs restrictions to balance gameplay. Just because I have advanced 'whatevermage' to a high level doesn't mean my lowbie Swordsman should be able to cast the best spells, and just because I have a maxxed out 'whatevermage' and a high level Swordsman doesn't mean that I should have access to both jobs high level abilities/spells. (I don't think that this is what you intended from your post, I just wanted to make the point)

Edited, Aug 13th 2009 2:48am by Shazaamemt
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#17 Aug 12 2009 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
204 posts
or maybe it's a story SE made and leeroy is a marketing device who wont show us what the game can really do until closer to launch date and/or gradually at various intervals between now and then... I vote that
____________________________
-----------------

Quote:
4. For treasure hunter to work, a THF must hit the mob, dance on one leg, sing the hokey pokey, sacrifice a moogle, unequip all their armor, and be left handed.
#18 Aug 13 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
Shazaamemt wrote:
I like that, but it needs restrictions to balance gameplay. Just because I have advanced 'whatevermage' to a high level doesn't mean my lowbie Swordsman should be able to cast the best spells, and just because I have a maxxed out 'whatevermage' and a high level Swordsman doesn't mean that I should have access to both jobs high level abilities/spells. (I don't think that this is what you intended from your post, I just wanted to make the point)


I touched on this several weeks ago. The idea is that you have a certain set of skills on your character that you've developed over the course of playing the game. The effectiveness of those skills is augmented by gear. As well, the decision to use those skills becomes a function of your role in the group.

So if you've got a preference for the swordsman type deal but you've also leveled your sorcerer abilities enough to have access to healing spells, you'd somewhat resemble a paladin in FFXI. You can use all skills you've learned...regardless of which discipline you learned them from...but someone in heavy armor with a focus on physical attack stats isn't going to pack the same punch with their heals or have the mana pool of someone who is wearing caster gear. The game mechanics themselves create a 'natural' restriction without having to impose a coded one. That type of system would actually function best if players were not allowed to swap gear mid-fight in order to prevent the situation you're talking about where you have maxxed out toons obliterate content and demolishing balance.

The benefit to the system as I understand it is that you can change your group makeup without having to ship everyone back to a mog house to switch jobs. I can think of a number of different scenarios where being able to shift things around between encounters would be neat, but I fully agree that having a situation 2 years into the game where everyone shows up to a party swinging massive swords and casting huge nukes while heal bombing the tank would be less than ideal.
#19 Aug 13 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
180 posts
From what I've read, it sounds like the party system is going to be mostly obsolete anyway. Being able to switch roles on the fly and cast heals as a swordsman is almost entirely catered to solo play.

"For example, if you have the Swordsman skill, that's enough to let you play by yourself, but if you've also raised your Sorcerer skill enough to unlock that skill's healing magic, that'll make solo play a lot easier for you..."

Who needs others when one person can do it all? I'm already envisioning thousands of identical end game characters running around beause a certain set of skills will be the most optimal combination. If you dropped a system like this into FFXI with its current playerbase, that's what you would get. I'm going to miss the diversity in the job system if that's truly the future for FFXIV.
#20 Aug 13 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Quote:
This armory system isn't exactly like the "job" concept that most Final Fantasy games work under. "The way I see it, the player can define how his own job works," says Komoto. "For example, if you have the Swordsman skill, that's enough to let you play by yourself, but if you've also raised your Sorcerer skill enough to unlock that skill's healing magic, that'll make solo play a lot easier for you. You can carry enough equipment around at any given time to change your style freely, and the system makes this easy by letting you change sets of equipment all at once."
(quoted for emphasis)

Quote:
Who needs others when one person can do it all? I'm already envisioning thousands of identical end game characters running around beause a certain set of skills will be the most optimal combination.
You give bonuses for specialization, they already said there will be a "see-saw" you can't know/use everything, with an army of paladins in FFXI you could DD tank and heal and be able to get by, but it is in no way the best combination to get things done. If "leroy" wants to have high healing skill for swordmaster solo play it could limit the amount of max growth where he couldn't be "the best" straight DD and still do other things (really I'm guessing we'll end up with something similar to crafting levels, where you can learn up to 60 in everything but after that point you only have 40 points to split).

Quote:
My impression was that there would be some sort of cooldown or sickness associated with changing between disciplines rapidly.
I don't see why, if don't treat weapons/abilities like a "jobs" and instead like combat skill in weapons from FFXI (that also let you learn/use abilities) there is no reason to impose detriments on a seasoned character for wanting to use what he's already learned. Lets say healing magic is restricted to staffs, if I'm a high lv "RDM" wanting to skill dagger (which I wouldn't use in a non-DD situation), I'd go fight weakish stuff to level it up, then when I needed to cure myself I'd throw on a light staff, cure and switch back to dagger. I don't think there is anything "broken" about being able to do that.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#21 Aug 13 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
*
237 posts
Based on a few comments I made in another thread on this topic Its pretty safe to say this game will be made of Win Sauce.

This type of freedom in character development was something I had expected in ffxi before I actually got to play it. Its good to know it'll materialize in ffxiv.

Now the next order of business is allowing players to play as ANY race they want, such as Beastmen and Moogles...











...and CHOCOBOS!!

>.>

<.<
#22 Aug 13 2009 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
**
432 posts
I keep saying this but I think you brought it up baltz. Since when they referenced the empire they were wielding guns and flamethrowers and what not. I got to thinking that maybe the empire is built up of the FFXIV races. Kinda like fomors but not undead (pure speculation). Wouldn't it be freaking cool to play for the empire? Being the bad guys for once?

<3 evil
____________________________
Kyunalesca
Lakshmi

"should you punch a six-year old girl in the face -- or should you punch her in the stomach? Hmm, that's a toughie."

Battlecat:
"I've always felt the best way to respond to someone calmly presenting their point of view is to fly off the handle and insult everyone who doesn't think like exactly like myself as well."
#23 Aug 13 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
334 posts
Out of the two methods this could work: switching classes, and always having access, I believe I would find more joy in the always having access. But this would require quite a bit of balancing to make sure it works out just fine. Someone mentioned a SeeSaw tactic within the ability system. Another has mentioned armor taking a large toll on what a character can do.

YES we wont know the exact method until SE reveals it.

I would hate for armor to play more of a roll in XIV than what it already plays in XI. "Requiring" gear swaps for most jobs. Thats under the assumptions we need to gear swap, and that it will even be allowed.

A specialization seesaw in the ability system would be fine as long as its not too restrictive. I see no problem with this idea.

Also when you switch between disciplines there could be certain innate bonuses that become active, and are inactive while in other disciplines. MAB/extra mp and hp/ def bonuses etc. Granted even that assumes a "discipline" is something you actually switch between.

I don't know, I wish SE was able to give a more steady stream of information instead of leaving the world blank for months at a time. Though, since this game is slated for next year I'm hoping information comes swiftly =) It sounds exciting and even if it ends up not being for me, I know XI has been something Ive always enjoyed.
____________________________
And all this just to say you hate me? Why thank you :)
#24 Aug 13 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
*
237 posts


Quote:
I keep saying this but I think you brought it up baltz. Since when they referenced the empire they were wielding guns and flamethrowers and what not. I got to thinking that maybe the empire is built up of the FFXIV races. Kinda like fomors but not undead (pure speculation). Wouldn't it be freaking cool to play for the empire? Being the bad guys for once?

<3 evil


Its always interesting to be able to get an experience from various viewpoints. I could see the goals of a grunt being to increase ones rank and prestige within a more political/militaristic/theocratic environment outside of just Growth. I'd expect their to be missions where players are sent out to snuff out a resistance or pagan tribes rather than sent outside the Empirical gates to kill a few rabbits.

That'd prolly been seen as a frivolous waste of Tax Payer Gil lol
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 24 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (24)