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Anyone else afraid to start as a mage?Follow

#52 Aug 18 2009 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
I hear what your saying, but /nin doesn't help as much as you think thar.

I'm not saying it is incredibly helpful, I'm saying it is a broken mechanic.
Louiscool wrote:
If all is what you say it is in FFXI, EVERYONE would sub ninja regardless of job and paladin tanks would be obsolete.

No. I never said utsusemi was the end all be all. I said it was a broken mechanic because it doesn't mesh well with other game play mechanics.
Louiscool wrote:
The ONLY situation with many /nins is a merit party

I was never arguing that /nin replaces all otehr subjobs, but don't you think it is even the least bit ridiculous that there is even one section of the game where it is preferable for everyone to sub it?
Louiscool wrote:
Sorry for the long as **** post, but if /nin was broken you wouldn't be allowed to go to events without it, and I never attend an event subbing ninja except on Ranger.

Again, broken doesn't necessarily mean that something is the most powerful. Being the most powerful is an indication of being broken. Being extremely underpowered is also indication of being broken.

The argument isn't specific to FFXI. A utsusemi mechanic would be just as broken in WoW, Lotro, or WAR. These games are not designed to accommodate it. Regularly blocking all incoming damage doesn't work well with how other classes are designed to take damage.
#53 Aug 18 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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So your time in Vana'diel was limited huh?


2003-2006 blm was a prince. 2003-2009 (and beyond) Blm remains the endgame king.

I've never had my endgame ls leaders cancel an event because we didn't have enough samurai's, warriors, dragoon, rangers, pups, dancers, scholars, blue mages, beastmasters, or ninjas.


I'll admit that when I first started XI as a BLM, I never had to wait to get a party. But now you almost have to solo or manaburn until you get to endgame, which I haven't made it to yet. Surely, SE didn't intend for BLM to solo from 1-70ish just so they could be king of endgame events. And hopefully they realize that that's the case. It doesn't seem like they care that BLM have to solo/manaburn to get exp. ::Insert dead horse-beating smiley::

It's not the forced soloing/manaburning that I have problem with; I really enjoy it. I do have a problem with SE's lack of concern that BLMs have little to no place in regular EXP parties.

If I start a mage in FFXIV will I have to race to endgame progression before the playerbase realizes that wizards kill mobs or complete guild leves slower than melee DDs?
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#54 Aug 18 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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esque wrote:

I'll admit that when I first started XI as a BLM, I never had to wait to get a party. But now you almost have to solo or manaburn until you get to endgame, which I haven't made it to yet. Surely, SE didn't intend for BLM to solo from 1-70ish just so they could be king of endgame events.


Yeah I agree. It's part the fault of the playerbase though. BLM is still great 1-55 in a party, but once you get to Aht Urghan areas people only fight Colibri which in addition to being rdm/rdm job types with a double resistance to magic, reflect magic back.

But this is also SE's fault for not doing something about this for the last four years.

I've been in a few old school parties around 67-70 where we would sc and then 3 blms would magic burst tornado and not only were they fast exp, but fun. The problem is, players are lazy and don't want to skillchain to set this up, they want to be the big number droppers.

Quote:

The argument isn't specific to FFXI. A utsusemi mechanic would be just as broken in WoW, Lotro, or WAR. These games are not designed to accommodate it. Regularly blocking all incoming damage doesn't work well with how other classes are designed to take damage.


Actually, I completely agree. It breeds poor players more often than not. Most often someone is /nin out of laziness so they don't have to worry about hate management. I think all this would have been avoided is Utsusemi: Ni was level 38 instead of 37.
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#55 Aug 19 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Eqsue, I can sympathize with your feelings regarding black mage. On my first character, it was the first job I leveled. Broke into endgame easily, prep-geared my summoner and leveled that as a healer till that hit 75 and then whammo, every event I went to was great. Then meriting happened. All of a sudden, if I wasn't healing on my summoner, than I was taking 2x or more as long to merit than melees. True it was my fault for not just forming a manaburn static, but statics are just too demanding on my schedule, so more times out of not they weren't the greatest players to attempt one with.

I ended up leveling red mage and then ninja to handle merits. Lucky for me I loved both of them. Regardless, you shouldn't have to level another job to merit efficiently.

But SE can't entirely be blamed for that. The playerbase will always conform to the easiest way to handle things after the initial shock and awe subsides. Could they have created mage friendly party locations? Yes, but if you were a party leader, would you go out of your way to party somewhere far off for your blm, or just kick him and get a sam or rng, and hit up a ToAU camp where replacements can come to you in under 6 minutes?
#56 Aug 19 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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According to the official website, it seems like you just switch your weapon and go play DD or mage, depending on what's required. As for as FFXI is concerned, BLM had a much easier time in Vanadiel covering 2002-current than SMN. The problem in FFXI is DoT wins over time. It wasn't until the ToAU expansion came out did it finally click with everyone. You had MNK's doing KRT and other DD's in Decoburns, but mostly it was standard XP for your average melee.

I'm confident that SE can make the right adjustments to balance the game properly. It was kinda difficult to do so in FFXI because any and all adjustments seemed to nerf other jobs. 2handed vs dual wield crowd for example. Another reason I'm optimistic is because SE has shown progress in FFXI itself. BLU for all intended purposes is really a reskin of RDM. SE did a good job with BLU learning how to do a hybrid job class and same with a hybrid mage in SCH.
#57 Aug 19 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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It's part the fault of the playerbase though.

No. Game design 101: Nothing is ever the fault of the playerbase. That's a cop-out for bad developers. Part of their job is to anticipate how the playerbase will use a given feature, and adjust accordingly. They should both predict and try to prevent potential problems, and quickly react to unforeseen problems.

People are predictable and human nature is a constant which cannot be changed. Developers can change the game, but humans cannot change themselves. Blaming the playerbase for these problems is like blaming the fiery ball in the sky when you stay at the beach for 6 hours with no sunblock and get burned.
#58 Aug 19 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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No. Game design 101: Nothing is ever the fault of the playerbase. That's a cop-out for bad developers. Part of their job is to anticipate how the playerbase will use a given feature, and adjust accordingly. They should both predict and try to prevent potential problems, and quickly react to unforeseen problems.

People are predictable and human nature is a constant which cannot be changed. Developers can change the game, but humans cannot change themselves. Blaming the playerbase for these problems is like blaming the fiery ball in the sky when you stay at the beach for 6 hours with no sunblock and get burned.


Its the playerbase fault, and slightly game design. I'm sorry to break this to you but the developers are human like all of the players. No human can predict exactly how a game is going to turn out years down the road, as new areas, mobs, and gear come out. Not to mention back in 2001, when the game came out, mmos was still fairly a new concept. Sure they could have constantly tweeked things, but min/max will always find its way into an mmo. Its not the developers fault that the playerbase choose to use min/max as the only way possible to do things.

How can you not blame the players, when its the perfect way or no way for a lot of people. Was any job in ffxi bad? No, but their was jobs with the perception that they was. Players create this perception, and its not the developers fault to tweak things everytime something has a slightly bad perception. When in fact that job can and has been used effectively, and the perception is just highly overexaggerated because of min/max.
#59 Aug 19 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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You really don't understand such a simple concept?
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Sure they could have constantly tweeked things, but min/max will always find its way into an mmo. Its not the developers fault that the playerbase chooses to use min/max as the only way possible to do things.

It is the developers' fault for failing to adapt to the way the game is played. People are always going to find the most efficient ways to do things.
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How can you not blame the players

The same way I don't blame the water when someone drowns?
Quote:
Players create this perception, and its not the developers fault to tweak things everytime something has a slightly bad perception.

Actually, yes, that is their job. The players owe the developers a monthly fee, and nothing more.
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perception is just highly overexaggerated because of min/max.

Let's all blame concepts! I think murder happens because of Anger! Let's all blame Anger! Should we convict that murderer? Nah, Anger made him do it!
#60 Aug 19 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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well i know one thing, if they have a bard or anything like it, I won't level it and be stuck as brd4lyfe again.
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#61 Aug 19 2009 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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Kerberoz wrote:

No. Game design 101: Nothing is ever the fault of the playerbase.


-So it wasn't the players fault for thinking mnk sucked for the longest time because they didn't drop large numbers? Then when people finally parsed it they realized monk was awesome and put out steady high DoT.

-It isn't the players fault for not skill chaining any more? Even though it's completely viable from 1-55?

-It's not the players fault for creating melee burns in the dunes because they think that what works for merits works always?

-It's not the players fault for being lazy and showing up to my merit party as Drg/nin and Sam/nin because they are too lazy to switch between hasso and seigan/third eye?

-It's not the players fault for duping items and getting banned?

-It's not the players fault for the fishing change that required the mini game and added fishing fatigue?


You were saying? Gaming 101: Never underestimate the greed and laziness of your players.
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#62 Aug 19 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
-So it wasn't the players fault for thinking mnk sucked for the longest time because they didn't drop large numbers? Then when people finally parsed it they realized monk was awesome and put out steady high DoT.

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It isn't the players fault for not skill chaining any more? Even though it's completely viable from 1-55?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for creating melee burns in the dunes because they think that what works for merits works always?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for being lazy and showing up to my merit party as Drg/nin and Sam/nin because they are too lazy to switch between hasso and seigan/third eye?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for duping items and getting banned?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for the fishing change that required the mini game and added fishing fatigue?

Correct.



Perhaps it would be helpful to say that you can blame a player but you cannot blame players collectively. Don't think of players as individual people, think of them as a statistical group. Optimizing, relaxing, goofing off, complaining, cheating, and much more are all expected behaviors that developers can control statistically. Players respond to the game, and developers control every aspect of the game.

Pretend you have an MMORPG with 2 classes that are initially perfectly balanced and equally cool. They will likely start out with approximately an equal number of players and continue to have an equal number of players. Now if one day the developer decides to make one class far, far stronger and far, far more cool will you not see a sudden influx of players into that class? Who is responsible for what occurred? Sure each individual player had a choice, but didn't the Developers have control over those collective choices?

See, it's utterly point to blame the player base. You can say it's all their fault all you want, but it changes nothing. Think of people as accident prone. If you have a bridge without railings you can blame the people that fall off for not being cautious all you want, but it doesn't stop people from falling off. What does stop people from falling off is blaming the construction company for not installing railings.

You can't change collective groups directly. You change them by changing the environment. Group behavior doesn't collectively shift without incentive.

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 10:15pm by Allegory
#63 Aug 19 2009 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think perhaps folks may be confused,
how XI's community management ended up being is not at all typical of the genre.

MMOs manage their playerbase like a Shepard tending a flock of sheep. They're ever vigilant, protective in their own distant way, and ready to herd any that may stray. SE managed their playerbase like a...well, I can find no proper metaphor because there's a point of lassez-faire where it ceases to be management and becomes something more like only occasionally remembering to feed your caged pet.

What usually happens is this:
Designers introduce something -> The playerbase perverts it because no amount of preparation can rival the ingenuity of millions of people -> the Designers (being only human) realize their error and take steps to resolve the issue.

What happened in XI was this:
SE introduced something -> The playerbase perverts it because no amount of preparation can rival the ingenuity of thousands of people -> Absolutely nothing.


It's SE's fault people in XI don't skillchain and magic burst anymore. Not because they were able to stop it from happening in the first place, but because they didn't fix it once they realized an entire game mechanic was being subverted.



Edited, Aug 19th 2009 11:50pm by Zemzelette
#64 Aug 19 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
-So it wasn't the players fault for thinking mnk sucked for the longest time because they didn't drop large numbers? Then when people finally parsed it they realized monk was awesome and put out steady high DoT.

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It isn't the players fault for not skill chaining any more? Even though it's completely viable from 1-55?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for creating melee burns in the dunes because they think that what works for merits works always?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for being lazy and showing up to my merit party as Drg/nin and Sam/nin because they are too lazy to switch between hasso and seigan/third eye?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for duping items and getting banned?

Correct.
Louiscool wrote:
-It's not the players fault for the fishing change that required the mini game and added fishing fatigue?

Correct.



Perhaps it would be helpful to say that you can blame a player but you cannot blame players collectively. Don't think of players as individual people, think of them as a statistical group. Optimizing, relaxing, goofing off, complaining, cheating, and much more are all expected behaviors that developers can control statistically. Players respond to the game, and developers control every aspect of the game.

Pretend you have an MMORPG with 2 classes that are initially perfectly balanced and equally cool. They will likely start out with approximately an equal number of players and continue to have an equal number of players. Now if one day the developer decides to make one class far, far stronger and far, far more cool will you not see a sudden influx of players into that class? Who is responsible for what occurred? Sure each individual player had a choice, but didn't the Developers have control over those collective choices?

See, it's utterly point to blame the player base. You can say it's all their fault all you want, but it changes nothing. Think of people as accident prone. If you have a bridge without railings you can blame the people that fall off for not being cautious all you want, but it doesn't stop people from falling off. What does stop people from falling off is blaming the construction company for not installing railings.

You can't change collective groups directly. You change them by changing the environment. Group behavior doesn't collectively shift without incentive.

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 10:15pm by Allegory


Allegory wrote:

Come now, surely you can't blame a game for what stupid people do with it? :)


/gasp! Contradiction! lol. :P

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 12:24am by valid
#65 Aug 19 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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valid wrote:
/gasp! Contradiction! lol. :P

Not as such. Games and game developers aren't at all the same thing. When games start designing themselves, then it is time to be afraid; be very afraid.
#66 Aug 19 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can't change collective groups directly. You change them by changing the environment. Group behavior doesn't collectively shift without incentive.

You guys are oversimplifying. The game and the playerbase are not separated by a vacuum. The "incentive" you mention can come from interactions within the group as well as from outside.

A typical scenario might be one influential person on a message board posting a strongly worded, but incorrect, opinion on something. People pick up on it, shape their own memories of that thing to corroborate the original opinion, and start to propagate it. Soon it's fully integrated into the attitudes of players, who reinforce it constantly with their behavior and language (I'm a moron). Something like this can never be predicted, because it all traces back to one or a handful of individuals who could just as easily have never said or done what they did. Or one person with better knowledge might have stumbled onto the original thread and issued such a good smackdown that it was nipped in the bud. Cultures big and small evolve this way.

It's not right to say that it does no good to blame the players in situations like this. Persistently applying blame and spreading correct information can reverse the culture in the same way it developed in the first place. Public opinion can change en masse dramatically in one direction and back again over time all without any change to the outside environment, or to game mechanics in our case.

Quote:
Think of people as accident prone. If you have a bridge without railings you can blame the people that fall off for not being cautious all you want, but it doesn't stop people from falling off. What does stop people from falling off is blaming the construction company for not installing railings.

You could also issue public service announcements warning people to look where they're going. By getting the message out, you can alter attitudes and behaviors. There is such a thing as immutable human nature, but most of what we do is learned and changeable. The major reductions in smoking and drunk driving rates over the past decades are examples of how this kind of thing can work. If we stuck to your theory, the only solution would be to ban those items or have the manufacturer somehow render them harmless.
#67 Aug 20 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Default
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If you can blame the playerbase for choosing the most efficient way to do something, then you can also blame the playerbase for being too big of fanbois to recognize how poorly SE treats them and quit.

Understand yet?
#68 Aug 20 2009 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Kerberoz wrote:
If you can blame the playerbase for choosing the most efficient way to do something, then you can also blame the playerbase for being too big of fanbois to recognize how poorly SE treats them and quit.

Understand yet?


Get to it then, chief.
#69 Aug 20 2009 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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****, and I thought this thread is in FF XIV forum. Still the same old FFXI talk instead. The intarwebs is so misleading sometimes.
#70 Aug 20 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just saying you CAN and should blame the players AND the developers for issues we have.

It's not solely SE. You can't just say "SE should have thought of every conceivable possible way this could be exploited before releasing it."

Players misconceptions contribute heavily.

Example:

Pup continues to be an lol'd job. It's not that pup sucks. It's not that a pup can't keep up with other dd's. It's that pup is a hard job to play well, and many players have met enough ****-poor pups to avoid inviting them to their parties.

Skill chains are not only AS good from 1-55 as they were in 2003, they've actually been buffed for lower resist rates. Still, no one will skill chain because the perception is skewed from partying in Aht Urghan areas that the dmg isn't worth it, mostly because those mobs are highly magic resistant.



Regardless of all this, to get on topic:

You shouldn't be afraid of a mage because SE has adopted a much more favorable method of class balancing.

Instead of nerfing a job that's too powerful they've taken to increasing the abilities of less powerful jobs to match or surpass them. I doubt we'll see something akin to the Ranger Nerf again and they really have been learning from their experiences.

As a whole SE has learned a ton about the nature of MMO's from XI and this will carry over into XIV, which is basically their fresh slate to correct all this.

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 9:35am by Louiscool
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#71 Aug 20 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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As a whole SE has learned a ton about the nature of MMO's from XI and this will carry over into XIV, which is basically their fresh slate to correct all this.


Agreed. We're months away from the game being released, received a bit of information, and we're already seeing and reading plenty of examples of Square learning from 11 and applying those lessons to XIV. Most skeptics I see reference them never fixing the same problems in 11.

My response: SE is a company. Their goal is to make money, and continue making money on all of their new content while building both a brand and product fanbase. Not listening to people's demands to change an older game (read: 6-7 YEARS older) isn't about not caring, it's about getting those same people to make the switch to the newer, "fixed" game. I hear people spouting all this "FIX 11 NAO" madness and all I see is an MMO that's had an amazing run, but has officially realized every MMO must eventually end. Especially when the company has a new MMO on the immediate horizon.

I believe XIV will have considered the mage issue and addressed it as best as the developers could. But I'll never underestimate players and their ability to find something wrong with the system. I give it a day before we see "FIX THIS JOB NAO/NERF THIS JOB NAO" on the forums, whether it's a warranted change or not.

People are just programmed to find faults, it just happens that faults are mostly relative short of the "entire world is suffering" ones.

Edit: Missed a period(laaaaaaaaawl).

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 1:36pm by Zephyeris
#72 Aug 20 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't read responses, but I'll put this out there:

For one thing, we don't know if we'll have a MP system. One of the things that killed Blm in ToAU was the fact that parties could get huge amounts of exp without having to wait for players to regain MP. Plus, once SCs disappeared, the Blm's damage dropped a decent bit.

That doesn't have to be an issue in XIV. For one thing, since you need to have, say, a stave equipped to use magical skills, you may also have melee magic abilities. I have a feeling you may end up with a sort of branching class system, like in tactics (you first have X number of options, with more jobs opening over time).

So, the sorcerer may have magical skills that also attack an enemy with a weapon, like a concentrated En spell. And, if there aren't MP costs or they are budgeted, you'll be able to go for a while.

The problem with MMOs is that the glass-cannon class inevitably dies. Because, once everyone is skilled, the chances of the cannon class getting hate is slim. So they just out damage everyone else with no negative effects.

I wouldn't be too quick to judge the magic DD class you can start as. For one thing, remember this system isn't going to be a leveling system. So, longevity may not be required. For another, you may not even have the mp restrictions and such.

Just wait and see.^^
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