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Character growth and design speculation.Follow

#1 Aug 13 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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So tell me if there's anything out there that contradicts this theory, but this is my guess at what SE has in mind.

Weapons and armor will have abilities, traits, and stat bonuses attached to them.
For example, a sword may have Berserk and Attack +2. Weapons -will- determine your "job," and let's just go with the example that a sword makes you a Gladiator. Primarily weapons will carry job-exclusive abilities, so in this case, Berserk is for Gladiators only. Armor on the other hand will carry abilities, traits, and stat bonuses that will be applied to any job. A helmet may have HP +30, DEF +4, and let's say the ability Libra.

Now, what I can't really wager a guess at right now is if weapons and armor will have stats aside from the ones that you master. For example, a sword could have Attack +2 that can be learned, and an additional +5 that can't. Though this probably wouldn't be especially important until you had already mastered all the different weapons and armor, at which point you would be equipping the "best" ones rather than the ones that had abilities that you needed. For that matter, there may not be learnable stat bonuses on equipment at all in favor of another way of raising character stats.

You'll master these bonuses on equipment most likely by completing guild leves. So Berserk may cost 40 Leve, and Attack +2 cost 20 Leve. You complete a Guild Leve for 20 and you'll have learned Attack +2, and be half way to learning Berserk.

Now if you change weapons within the "Fighter" classes, you won't generally have to change your armor. You'll have a different set of weapon specific skills and traits. If you change to a Mage class, you'll have to change your armor to mage clothes.

I think that about covers it, but if I've left anything unexplained let me know. I could go on about the implications this would have for the game but I don't want to drone on too much.

As a personal note I would be underwhelmed by this system. I think it's okay, but could be a lot better. This is just what I think they WILL do based on what little we know so far.


Edited, Aug 13th 2009 11:38pm by Kachi
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#2 Aug 14 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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This sounds pretty much like what I've been thinking.

Something I haven't seen mentioned that I'd like to throw out there is this: Maybe your job isn't decided simply by what weapon you have equiped. Maybe it's decided by some kind of combination of your weapon, head gear, body armor, gloves, etc. (i.e. all of your equipment)

What do you guys think about that possibility?
#3 Aug 14 2009 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Something I haven't seen mentioned that I'd like to throw out there is this: Maybe your job isn't decided simply by what weapon you have equiped. Maybe it's decided by some kind of combination of your weapon, head gear, body armor, gloves, etc. (i.e. all of your equipment)

What do you guys think about that possibility?


This sounds to me as if it would have to be agonizingly simple or else it would drive away players. Personally, I think SE will try to keep it relatively simple, they have plenty of options still if they just stick to weapons or weapon class determining a player's discipline.

Kachi, I think your concept is correct in general, and probably pretty close to what will be implemented. But I think we're still missing something - if for no other reason than that this system sounds incredibly close to the system in FFIX and SE has a track record a at least trying to do something new in the job system for every new game. I expect at least one twist that we haven't seen yet.
#4 Aug 14 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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My speculations on the topic was that, the players will be able to take the four roles within the society created:

Arms would be the fighters whether melee or ranged
Caster would be all the magic-users
Land would be those that choose to do gathering for a living
Hand would be those that choose to do professions for a living.

Kind of like Silkroad take on the system perhaps. So potentially people that work for Land and Hand can hire arms and casters for protection against monsters (maybe even players although I highly doubt they would turn this into a pvp game) for when they do their Guild leves.

Too early to say, however I personally wouldn't mind having certain areas within the game a battle-zone for PvP for certain guild leve events. Making it all the more difficult and making certain groups of players capable mercenaries for hire..
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#5 Aug 14 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Sounds pretty plausible. It doesn't seem to contradict anything they've said, at least.

They seem to be hinting that abilities will be acquired through some combination of weapons and equipment, but I can hardly begin to guess how. Will it be possible at all to permanently learn stats and abilities, or will they be purely tied to what you're wearing at the time? Will weapons and equipment teach us specific abilities, or merely put us on a path towards learning job-specific abilities? Will gear (besides weapons) even provide abilities at all? I don't think they've been clear on that.

My hope is that instead of gear giving generic job-neutral abilities, primary job abilities are somehow attached to them or can be attached to them. That way you could equip any character with abilities from various jobs through your gear. For balance and for replayability of low-level areas, gear might be given levels or ranks and you could only use it and its corresponding abilities when your current main job is of the same rank. But that sounds suspiciously close to a character level, which they've said they're not using. In fact, they really haven't said anything clear at all about combining job characteristics.
#6 Aug 14 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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About the only thing I see wrong with it, is the fact SE really hit home the Weapons part of equipment for character advancement. I can find a single quote that ties Armor to how your character plays, but that can be taken in a non-learning sense. Even Leeory's story and the Logo is weapons-focused. But that begs the question, if armor isn't tied to advancement, what purpose does it serve?

Also, what about gatherers? If abilities are locked to equipment, and gatherers are as a matter of the profession naturally afield, what happens to them when they get aggro? Would you have to allow gear swaps and all the godhood that implies just to keep a gatherer from being a sitting duck?


You were looking at restriction via effectiveness before, what made you drop that?
I think restricting people via effectiveness could work out just dandy with what little we know.


That is to say, when naked everyone is statistically the same, and the only purpose armor serves is to give statistics so the abilities have impact. There is no way to permanently alter your stats. Your learned abilities are freely available at all times, but without the enhancements armor provides they're of moderate effect. Armor switching would be limited to outside of combat to avoid Tankmages. Which would mean while you could access your abilities without limits, your only effective in one function per battle. Not Discipline, function, as a healer will likely prioritize different stats than a dps caster despite being in the same discipline. Hybridization is possible, but limited in effectiveness due to the fact people only have so many armor slots.

Weapons would be your job insomuch that skills of that job are learned from it, and skills are dependent on which weapon you have equipped. Which is to say, to be truly effective, Sharpshot requires a gun or bow, Jump requires a Polearm, Curaga requires a Mace. Given that your armor locks you into being effective in one function, you can allow inter-disciplinary weapon switching mid-battle if two conditions are met. One, the system in which character advancement is rewarded does not allow for self-powerlevelling. And Two, the effect of armor as it relates to efficiency (or lackthereof) scales appropriately with the progress of content difficulty for each individual ability or set of abilities.

All this all means is that if your skipping around Gathering daisies and a monster attacks you, you don't just have to sit there and take it. You can Charm, you can cast Fire, you can Heal - but ultimately it's going to be filtered through the fact your trying to take on a monster in an apron with pruning sheers.


Edited, Aug 14th 2009 9:31pm by Zemzelette
#7 Aug 14 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Final Fantasy XIV said that the weapon you chose determines your job. In my opinion, Armor will serve as either a stat boost (like +HP or +acc, or the way its implemented in any other MMO). You will learn abilities throw weapons. what I think from what other people said is that each weapon will have a grid on its own. You learn abilities, up your stats and so on. Switch a weapon and pretty much its like starting at lvl 1 if you have never used that weapon. Maybe you can have a hybrid class if say you use a scythe similar to FFXI's DRK. This is my guess but it seems like every one is asking for you learn a skill and you keep it no mater if you switch weapons or not. Since they are focused on weapon I don't think that abilities and stats will be learned through armor too.
#8 Aug 14 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Your theory sounds about right to me. I keep thinking Final Fantasy Tactics. As you say, maybe armor gives a stat boost inherent to the item (like the +30HP you mention). And maybe the armor also has skills you can learn. So Gaia armor might teach a Warrior to use Cover but a Monk to use Chakra. Meanwhile, both can enjoy the +30HP.

And then your suggested extra layer of gaining permanent stat bonuses becomes intriguing. Maybe that Gaia armor gives a permanent +10HP once you have completed enough battles while wearing it.

As for the questions about how crafters and harvesters will be supported, I get the sense that SE is not putting a lot of energy into making a game where you can craft and that be all. Every description they throw at us indicates that want us to dabble in all of the spheres.
#9 Aug 14 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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You'll master these bonuses on equipment most likely by completing guild leves. So Berserk may cost 40 Leve, and Attack +2 cost 20 Leve. You complete a Guild Leve for 20 and you'll have learned Attack +2, and be half way to learning Berserk.

Another thing. It sounds like guildleves will be important, but I hope and expect that they won't be the only way to progress. My guess is that they'll be something like Fields of Valor in FFXI, but obviously more central to the game. You'll go out on a leve and gain some experience (or whatever they call it) from fighting monsters and whatnot, and then get a bonus when the leve is completed. Or on, say, a logging leve, you'll get the usual skillups from chopping down trees plus the leve bonus when you're through. But I would definitely bet that you'll still be able to go out on an ordinary exp party or do some unrestricted harvesting/crafting and progress the old fashioned way. And hopefully there'll be other methods, too.

The other thing I'm speculating is that experience will be gained from each action you perform against a monster instead of in a lump sum after it's dead, similar to FFTactics. It makes more sense for this game as I understand it and it allows for the "no claim" battle system they mentioned in some interview a while back.
#10 Aug 14 2009 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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My hope is that instead of gear giving generic job-neutral abilities, primary job abilities are somehow attached to them or can be attached to them. That way you could equip any character with abilities from various jobs through your gear. For balance and for replayability of low-level areas, gear might be given levels or ranks and you could only use it and its corresponding abilities when your current main job is of the same rank. But that sounds suspiciously close to a character level, which they've said they're not using. In fact, they really haven't said anything clear at all about combining job characteristics.


Well, in the system I described, weapons give the job-specific abilities where armor gives job-neutral abilities (though armor could give no abilities at all). It's fully possible that after you learn something from a weapon, you don't need that weapon type equipped to use it, but then I wouldn't see how your job would be determined by your weapon (which I would probably prefer, honestly).

This ranking system that you're describing would help recreate the feeling of starting over when you change jobs like XI does, but I'll wager they've dismissed the idea. A lot of people, while they liked being able to change jobs, did not like having to start over with a fresh slate and go through the same areas all over again. I think that's something they'll shy away from. The people who like that aspect can always create a fresh new character, and while it's not "the same," it's a better overall compromise for the playerbase I think.

Quote:
About the only thing I see wrong with it, is the fact SE really hit home the Weapons part of equipment for character advancement. I can find a single quote that ties Armor to how your character plays, but that can be taken in a non-learning sense. Even Leeory's story and the Logo is weapons-focused. But that begs the question, if armor isn't tied to advancement, what purpose does it serve?


What I think is that it will be some combination of temporary stats and/or learned stats and/or abilities. They really haven't said enough to wager a reasonable bet, but let me explain my reasoning on these:

Equippable, temporary stats: Just like gear in FFXI and pretty much every other game. It's kind of hard to imagine that there won't be equipment like this, though it's possible. It's also possible that gear is the ONLY decider for your stats. Since you don't level up though, it's a pretty safe guess that in some way or another, your character stat growth will depend heavily on gear.

Learned stats: As just explained, this would be a way in which you could grow stats without leveling up. There's little indication that it -is- there but it's kind of the next best guess given what we know is -not- there (xp). And in this way, you can choose your own stat growth more or less, but you're still limited to primarily melee stats if you're on the fighter path, or magic stats if you're on the mage path, because presumably you can only equip either melee or mage clothes at once.

Abilities: They could be temporary or learnable, but either way the point would be in having abilities that can go between jobs/weapons. I would imagine they'd be learnable, but who knows. If they're temporary, then your armor would essentially create your subjob. If they're not, then they'll probably be pretty bland abilities because everyone could have them.

Quote:
Also, what about gatherers? If abilities are locked to equipment, and gatherers are as a matter of the profession naturally afield, what happens to them when they get aggro? Would you have to allow gear swaps and all the godhood that implies just to keep a gatherer from being a sitting duck?


This raises a good question-- it's my speculation that you will literally be able to switch between the four disciplines whenever you want, even mid battle. You probably get Leve points for whatever equipment you are wearing when you finish the leve. So you can simply switch weapons to gain access to other abilities you've unlocked, or you can change disciplines entirely and change all of your armor. There may be some penalty imposed, like a stun, and you might not be able to do it while actually engaged with the enemy. Does that answer the question?

Quote:
You were looking at restriction via effectiveness before, what made you drop that?
I think restricting people via effectiveness could work out just dandy with what little we know.


I don't think I ever really talked about that, at least not the way you described. Maybe I touched on it briefly in the Hybrid thread?

Well, I guess all I have to say about that is that I don't think they're going to do it that way, so whether or not I think it's a good idea is irrelevant (to this discussion). Despite it being irrelevant, I have to say I'm not really a fan of that particular idea. But I'm not a big fan of any system where gear and stats are heavily interdependent.

I don't see SE removing character growth from the game in favor of making stats based entirely on equipment or anything else.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Aug 14 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I just decided to throw out a little example, but I also meant to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses.

Let's say your primary "Land" job is Logger, and your "Hand" is Woodworker. For the most part, your gear while on one of these professions would aim to improve your performance in these tasks.

For example, you might have gloves for a logger that allow you to learn STR +3. Huh, why a combat stat? Well, STR might improve your logging ability. Now, that won't mean that STR will be the most important thing, and that there will be STR gear out the wazoo for Gatherers, but that might be the best pair of gloves you can find at the time. More important gear for you might be your boots that give Movement Speed +1% (which will add up as you master more speed bonuses), and the Swing Technique bonus on your axe, which allows you to do more chopping without rest.

Now you take a logging leve, and you, I don't know, have to get ten logs. And you get some Leve and finally master the STR bonus on your gloves, and Swing from your axe. Yay. Now you'll want new gear to learn more bonuses. You'll likely have gotten something as a reward from your last Guild Leve. But let's say for now you have all the bonuses available to your mastered already, so there's nothing more you can do.

Then you switch to your Woodworker (I have no idea what "weapon" you would use here... Carving knife? Just work with me on this). Now you switch to gloves that have dexterity (like STR with your logging, it helps a little) and your knife which gives you a Whittling bonus (lulz).

Or you might be a scribe who wields a mighty pen. Lousy for stabbery, decent for casting.

So without my spelling it out, you can probably further imagine a lot of what the gameplay would be like.

Edit: This one snuck by me.

Quote:
You'll go out on a leve and gain some experience (or whatever they call it) from fighting monsters and whatnot, and then get a bonus when the leve is completed. Or on, say, a logging leve, you'll get the usual skillups from chopping down trees plus the leve bonus when you're through. But I would definitely bet that you'll still be able to go out on an ordinary exp party or do some unrestricted harvesting/crafting and progress the old fashioned way. And hopefully there'll be other methods, too.

The other thing I'm speculating is that experience will be gained from each action you perform against a monster instead of in a lump sum after it's dead, similar to FFTactics. It makes more sense for this game as I understand it and it allows for the "no claim" battle system they mentioned in some interview a while back.


I've given quite a bit of thought to this matter, and I'm still a little torn on it. It's possible that you won't be able to make any progress without completing a Leve, and for the moment that's actually what I'm leaning towards (again, not because I love the idea).

But it's also possible that it's just more advantageous to complete a Leve than to simply wander off and try to earn Leve points "the hard way." For example, you might get 15 Leve for killing 15 weak monsters, but there's a Leve available where you kill the exact same 15 monsters where you get 30 Leve in addition to a spiffy item reward. The same applies to logging trees or making shoes or wtf ever.

Either way I'm leaning towards Leves being the primary method of progression, though I'll agree that it would suck if you have to go back to town and get a Leve to be rewarded for something you could have just done. But that's not something I'd put past SE.

Edited, Aug 14th 2009 11:51pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#12 Aug 14 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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This ranking system that you're describing would help recreate the feeling of starting over when you change jobs like XI does, but I'll wager they've dismissed the idea. A lot of people, while they liked being able to change jobs, did not like having to start over with a fresh slate and go through the same areas all over again. I think that's something they'll shy away from. The people who like that aspect can always create a fresh new character, and while it's not "the same," it's a better overall compromise for the playerbase I think.

I'm not sure. My impression is that what people hated was being forced to start from scratch in order to level up subjobs they had no interest in. Starting a new job just for the fun of it, going through the more casual and carefree early levels again -- that's something very different. I'm not exactly typical in a lot of ways, so I should be careful about generalizing, but I always thought that was one of the best experiences of the game.

Plus, obviously it's a major timesink, which the developers have to see as a bonus.

I think we know enough already to say that when you switch disciplines or weapons to something you haven't tried before, your abilities will take a large step backward. It's really just a question of how much, and whether that affects base stats (if there is such a thing) and equipment stats. I'm not sure how the practicalities of that would work. If you keep your stats but lose your abilities, would you be able to fight monsters your current max "level" the first time you equip a sword, or would they eat you alive? Would you compromise and fight monsters half your level?

Or does any of this conversation even make sense when the game apparently doesn't have levels? For all I know, all monsters could be pretty well the same strength (although that would be very lame).

I sure hope some of this comes out at Gamescon, or at least at TGS.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 2:26am by Borkachev
#13 Aug 15 2009 at 12:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure. My impression is that what people hated was being forced to start from scratch in order to level up subjobs they had no interest in. Starting a new job just for the fun of it, going through the more casual and carefree early levels again -- that's something very different. I'm not exactly typical in a lot of ways, so I should be careful about generalizing, but I always thought that was one of the best experiences of the game.


Well, I see your point, and that's certainly true for a lot of players, but I think there are also plenty of players who wouldn't want to replay the same content even setting subjobs aside... even if they only had to do it to level a new main job.

Admittedly it's kind of hard to guess how players would feel about that, but taking that into consideration, I still think it's probably best not to force people to replay old content to level a new job because they can always replay content on a new character if they want.

Quote:
I think we know enough already to say that when you switch disciplines or weapons to something you haven't tried before, your abilities will take a large step backward. It's really just a question of how much, and whether that affects base stats (if there is such a thing) and equipment stats. I'm not sure how the practicalities of that would work. If you keep your stats but lose your abilities, would you be able to fight monsters your current max "level" the first time you equip a sword, or would they eat you alive? Would you compromise and fight monsters half your level?


The way I'm thinking, you would be able to fight monsters even with an entirely new weapon, but you'd be at a severe disadvantage due to that lack of abilities. This also necessitates that weapons are equipped with a wide ******* of abilities, and not the handful that they have in XI. It also means that these abilities have to have valuable tactical functions and not become quickly obsolete as new abilities become available. But it probably wouldn't be a bad example to compare it to meleeing a monster without access to any abilities or weaponskills. So you'd probably fight enemies significantly weaker than you at first until you unlocked a few key abilities.

Quote:
Or does any of this conversation even make sense when the game apparently doesn't have levels? For all I know, all monsters could be pretty well the same strength (although that would be very lame).


If you master stats from armor, or even earn them as a reward for completing leves (which seems like the next most likely option to me), then it will all make perfect sense. If monsters are all pretty well the same strength, then I'd expect things to be fairly different. Now on the one hand, monsters that are all the same strength hint at characters having no vertical growth. It's not that I'm one to sing the praises of vertical growth, but it's pretty much the cornerstone of the MMORPG, enough so that without it, it'd be more accurately described as an MMOWTF.

But it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. In fact, it could hugely up the player/monster balance and make the game incredibly strategic. Think of a game like chess, probably the most famed strategy game the world has ever known. A lot of its staying power rests in the fact that each match starts at a clean slate. Someone who has won 100 more matches than you doesn't start off with any inherent advantage. And it's fairly fun in spite of having absolutely no customization or progression whatsoever, by pure virtue of strategic challenge.

Generally such a balance is reserved for an action type game, where the idea is that the character doesn't need to progress because their performance improves as the player's manual dexterity, reaction time, etc. improve. It works just as well for strategy games, where the player improves mentally, but it's just not common. Plus, online strats would completely take all fun out of the game (aside from maybe randomized AIs). But basically, the idea would be that your character isn't progressing as a warrior so much as you are progressing as a strategist.

And while that all sounds swell in theory, I don't think such a game has ever really been attempted within this particular genre (at least with any measure of success). There aren't a great many PVE strategy games to begin with (mostly castle defense games), much less factoring in group dynamics and all these other MMO elements. And I think it's incredibly unlikely that they'll go in this direction, but it wouldn't necessarily be a bad game. It could even be fantastic, but it would sure surprise the **** out of a lot of people.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Aug 15 2009 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi I believe your thinking is well thought out. The only thing I disagree upon is what Borkachev pointed out. The Leeroy example clearly stated that his "thauma" skills were his most advanced class. "Changing Jobs" is starting to feel one sided, like we're being spoon fed. SE really gives me a love/hate relationship to the way they market this game. They are doing it well though with regard to marketing. Where the player base is at with speculation. SE is 20 times past that point in development. The last 4/5 years has been spent doing the things they wish they had done.
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#15 Aug 15 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks.

Quote:
The only thing I disagree upon is what Borkachev pointed out. The Leeroy example clearly stated that his "thauma" skills were his most advanced class.


I don't think there's any contradiction there unless I'm missing something. In my example, Leeroy is a thaumaturge when he equips his club/whatever. So he would still have a class that was more advanced than all the others.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Aug 15 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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“The way I see it, the player can define how his own job works,” says Komoto. “For example, if you have the Swordsman skill, that’s enough to let you play by yourself, but if you’ve also raised your Sorcerer skill enough to unlock that skill’s healing magic, that’ll make solo play a lot easier for you.


Fact 1: Weapons will, in general, determine your job.
Fact 2: You can easily swap between jobs by trading in gear sets.
Fact 3: Disciplines skills can be unlocked

Let's speculate whether or not Komoto meant
a)"if you level your Sorcerer skill high enough you can eventually unlock a cure spell, which would be great if you
wanted to Job Change, Cure <me>, and go back to battle"
or
b)"by means of leve/quest or armor equipment (Stat Bonus: Tier 1 Healing Magic) can be added to your gladiator class warrior to make a paladin? Likewise destructive type magic can be added to a gladiator to make a DRK. Perhaps a shield adds Curative Magic, a Scythe adds Destructive Magic. The catch, it would only work if you had leveled your Sorcerer Class in that fashion

On a side note, I do not believe there will be a MAJOR see-saw effect. The Best Melee Character will have never played a mage class? Doubtfully.
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#17 Aug 15 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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The question you raise is a good one, and I'm sure it's been going through a lot of players' minds (I know it's been going through mine). Despite all efforts I have found no indication that leans either way.

A lot of my speculation from that point comes not from what has been said but SE's history. Personally I'd prefer a system where you can unlock abilities in a way that gives you access to them, with limitations, regardless of your current job (option b). Unfortunately I really just don't think that's what SE will do... part of that comes from the claim that your weapon will determine your job, and from the emphasis on your ability to change jobs. Those claims certainly hint towards option a, and option a would be more in keeping with the kinds of systems that they have previously employed. Of course SE is known for it's innovation efforts, but it's also been known to rehash old systems when it thinks that they work.

I'm crossing my fingers SUPER hard for something more along the lines of "B" though. I would like more character gameplay customization, and B is the clear winner there. I think the only real advantage to A is that it's probably easier to program. It's more rigid so you don't have to program all of that flexibility in. With B you have to figure out what limitations you're going to put on players so that they can't unlock everything and be gods... not a hard thing to do at all, but I suspect that they'll avoid it anyway.

I don't think there will be a mage/melee seesaw either. At the very least, those two will probably be separate and allow you to have one of each. But you could have to choose one path within fighters and mages. I think aligning primary job abilities with the equipped weapon pretty effectively negates the need for seesaws. i.e., you can switch to a healer any time you like and toss on a cure, but if you switch back, any lasting buffs like protect would vanish.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 8:40am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Aug 15 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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I'll just add what might be another possibility.

They said you will be able to change sets of equipment at a time. Maybe they will have a sort of macro that you'll set: one for fighter, one for mage, one for gatherer, and one for crafter. That way you can only switch between one of each. If they break down the Mage classes to white mage, black mage, time mage, oracle, ect. it'll keep your spell selection restricted. In a party you wouldn't want your tank changing jobs because they would lose their armor. You're mages are standing in the big sheild thing (for protection and so their casting isn't interupted) so they have no reason to switch to melée class. That just leaves your dd party members that can switch and they would be sacrificing their dps for a second or two to cast a spell if they switch jobs.
#19 Aug 15 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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On a side note, I do not believe there will be a MAJOR see-saw effect. The Best Melee Character will have never played a mage class? Doubtfully.
I agree with kachi, I think the whole point of dividing them into four "disciplines" was to have the seesaw for each independent of the other three.
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#20 Aug 15 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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They said you will be able to change sets of equipment at a time. Maybe they will have a sort of macro that you'll set: one for fighter, one for mage, one for gatherer, and one for crafter. That way you can only switch between one of each. If they break down the Mage classes to white mage, black mage, time mage, oracle, ect. it'll keep your spell selection restricted. In a party you wouldn't want your tank changing jobs because they would lose their armor. You're mages are standing in the big sheild thing (for protection and so their casting isn't interupted) so they have no reason to switch to melée class. That just leaves your dd party members that can switch and they would be sacrificing their dps for a second or two to cast a spell if they switch jobs.


Well, I wouldn't call that "another" possibility. I neglected to mention it, but that's exactly what I had in mind. The only exception I might make for that is that switching weapons only (so switching jobs, but not disciplines) might not present any real penalties aside from dropping any buffs that were applied from the previous job. I still think a sort of time punishment like you're describing is more likely though.
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#21 Aug 15 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I wouldn't call that "another" possibility. I neglected to mention it, but that's exactly what I had in mind.


I reread your post and I think your right. We did say similar things.

I think if it's done this way there wouldn't be a need for a seesaw and party roles would be affected too much. If you could just switch to any job because your carrying a bunch of weapons and you have access to an very long list of spells and abilites, there's no amount of seesaw that can fix how overpowered that would be.
#22 Aug 15 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I see your point, and that's certainly true for a lot of players, but I think there are also plenty of players who wouldn't want to replay the same content even setting subjobs aside... even if they only had to do it to level a new main job.

Admittedly it's kind of hard to guess how players would feel about that, but taking that into consideration, I still think it's probably best not to force people to replay old content to level a new job because they can always replay content on a new character if they want.

As I think on it, I think you're probably right. If there's an emphasis on changing jobs during battle, or even just changing on the field with reasonable frequency, they're not going to drop you down to "level 1" when it happens. You won't switch to healer for a quick cure and watch your HP drop from 1000 to 52 and die on the next hit, and the monsters that were [Too weak] and running away from you a second ago won't suddenly turn around and murder you. It just wouldn't work. If you had to keep all your on-the-fly jobs at roughly the same strength to survive on the field, it would be far more of a nightmare than leveling subjobs ever was.

I still think there has to be heavy restrictions on changing jobs in the field, which might include not doing it during battle. There's no point to a class system if every spell and ability is just an equipment swap away. But I can't deny that some sort of in-field job swapping system seems to be quite central to the game.

Anyway, something different I picked up on from the website:

Quote:
By merely equipping any of a variety of weapons or tools, players can instantly change their active skills, thus enabling them to dramatically alter their style of play as well as their character's outward appearance.

I wonder if there are any hints about the equipment system hidden there. Why would changing your weapon alone dramatically alter your character's appearance? Is it possible that your active skills determine your entire appearance rather than your clothing? If that's the case, then equipment might be more generic and less specialized in this game, since it wouldn't really be divided up by tunics versus chainmail, hats versus helmets, etc.

But equipment has always been a major part of appearance customization in MMOs, and Square wouldn't remove that feature. So it could mean that there's a new way to customize your appearance for each job separate from equipment.

Mind you, there's obviously some specialization in equipment, since we already know the game has special features for storing and changing large amounts of gear for different jobs.

I guess "altering your character's appearance" could just mean changing their fighting stance, but that seems like a pretty redundant thing to say. So I wonder what they meant...
#23 Aug 15 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, as to this talk about restrictions when changing weapons/jobs, hear me out on this. I understand the initial "huh" reaction to a person having access to all abilities and spells at the swap of a weapon, but I have doubts that it would be as overpowered in practice as it would be on paper.

As an example, think of FFXI melee jobs. Imagine that you can switch between them at will, mid battle, but each time you do so, you're stunned for a couple of seconds. Now imagine that any buffs or effects from one job are lost when you switch. There are certain things that come to mind as being potentially very powerful, like switching to DRG to use Jumps, then switching to THF to SATA, then SAM to Meditate and WS, but before very long you find that many of the "important" abilities operate as buffs. It's of course entirely possible to make abilities in FFXIV even more buff-centric. I mean, we've got a fair bit to speculate on as far as character progression goes, but by comparison, we have almost nothing to hint at what combat will be like.

Of course, prohibiting change mid battle is the simple fix to the problem, and it wouldn't surprise me much. Another option is a warmup time, so that when you change jobs, you're not immediately at your pique performance with it, and keeping the same weapon equipped for longer is more efficient.

Point being, it's not too difficult to make it so that having access to all jobs at all times doesn't translate into it being effective to constantly switch between jobs.

Quote:
I wonder if there are any hints about the equipment system hidden there. Why would changing your weapon alone dramatically alter your character's appearance?


The way I've opted to interpret it is that your armor will change, but only when you're changing disciplines, not changing within a discipline. It says that you "can" and are "allowed" to change your appearance, but it doesn't say that you necessarily will. Maybe I'm reading too much into those semantics.

Another thing I neglected to mention was that I think armor will probably be discipline specific. i.e., the four disciplines will reflect four different classes of armor and weapons. So when you change disciplines, you will HAVE to change your armor. When you change weapons within your current discipline, maybe you can, but there probably won't be much reason to.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#24 Aug 15 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I thought about several ways to get it working in FFXIV w/o overpowering your char or similiar things.

I basically thought of this though!

1. Let's assume you got a Skill Lvl in Fighter, Mage...Reaching from 0 to 100 to keep it simple.

Let's say you use a Sword and your "Fighter Skill reaches 10 over time". When you reach 10 you're current weapon reached its max potential and in order to skill further you need a "better" more appropriate Weapon suiting your newly attained fighting skills.

I thought of 2 different ways that would work here, either you learn Abilities by using Weapons who got "Abilities" implied and needs you to use that weapon for a set period of fights/time/w/e to let your character "learn" that skill.

The other way would be reaching certain skill lvls in your disicpline will atomatically unlock skills, like learning Berserk with Skill lvl 5, War Shout with skill lvl 10 and so on, but still you need better weapons over time to maintain that you can't skill to max with the first weapon you got.

As already confirmed you will get access to "new" Disciplines by reaching certain skill lvls in Fighter, Mage etc.

Let's say you reach Fighter Skill lvl 10 and unlock Gladiator and Archer who got their own respective Skill lvl. So you can either choose to go on as a "simple" fighter, or lean towards more special ways of fighting.

Here I can see a system happening like in FFT. Reach Skill lvl 10 as Fighter and Archer 5 to unlock Thief, or reach Fighter 15 and Gladiator 10 to unlock Paladin(just speculating with Jobs)

But in fact I think Weapons will be the only thing that will define your "Main" Job at that current time. Like Tanaka said, Armor is just there to alter your way of playing and to let you choose your own unique way of playing your class.
Considering that statement I would assume armor is only benefiting towards special ways of playing that you might prefer over others. For example Gladiator could be both, DD and Tank, the thing that will make the difference is the armor your wearing, while as DD you might want to wear armor that boosts your Attack etc, you just as well can wear Armor with HP+ etc. if you want to play more Tank style. DD style Armor might grant you access to your offensive abilities, while tank armor grants you access to your defensive abilities.

Other than that, I just assume SE won't implement something to complicated or to "freaky" that needs some in-depth analysis before it is understandable ;)

PS: If they implement something like "Relic Weapons", it would be awesome to be only able to reach the final skill point using that special weapon :D

PS²: Forgot to mention, I would suggest changing your job should automatically get rid of the Jobs unique buffs you're currently using. Everything else would make chars who got several skills to max too "OP"

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 11:40pm by Shezard
#25 Aug 15 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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After switching jobs you have to wait a couple minutes before you can use an ability. It be kinda like a cooldown timer but more like a warmup timer. Any ja that you used before the switch could wear off before you could stack them with ja from your current job. I could see how that might work.
#26 Aug 15 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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borkachev wrote:
If there's an emphasis on changing jobs during battle, or even just changing on the field with reasonable frequency, they're not going to drop you down to "level 1" when it happens. You won't switch to healer for a quick cure and watch your HP drop from 1000 to 52 and die on the next hit, and the monsters that were [Too weak] and running away from you a second ago won't suddenly turn around and murder you. It just wouldn't work. If you had to keep all your on-the-fly jobs at roughly the same strength to survive on the field, it would be far more of a nightmare than leveling subjobs ever was.

I'm thinking a mix between FFX-2 and FFT again. In FFX-2, your character had base stats that went up or down based on the job she took. Going from Gunner to Warrior would take your HP from 1000 to 1700 at around character level 35, regardless if you had learned no warrior skills. But since we know FFXIV doesn't have character levels, we're back to gaining stats from gear again, like FFT.

So the change from Mage to Warrior allows you to put on warrior gear, which has greater HP bonuses than mage gear. Just a guess.

And this would further support the notion of gaining permanent stat boosts through wearing gear or completing Guidleves. Either method would make it so that the longer a person plays the stronger his character becomes. It would give us a sense of progression without having to attach a level to it. And maybe--just maybe--we could tailor our progression to suit our needs. Maybe George could focus on building STR while Sally could concentrate on building INT. But they could do it because they chose to.
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