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#1 Aug 14 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Early on I read about seasons in FFXIV. But there has not been any more information. Seasons would be so cool, imagine every zone in the game changing... there are endless possibilities, fishing on ice, monsters get more fur and or changing colors, trees dropping their leaves in the autumn. It would really give the game longevity. Are there other MMO's that already have seasons?
#2 Aug 14 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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I agree it would add to the immersion of the game. Animal could also migrate or hibernate when the seasons change. Some mobs could have different drops because they may be carrying differnt supplies in the winter than they would in the summer. Harvesters may have to move where the climate suits the plants they are trying to gather. It may effect the economy though since some items would be more rare during a particular season.

The only thing is I really hate the cold.
#3 Aug 14 2009 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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It would be awesome if SE did what both of you recommended. It would definitely bring the game to a higher level of realism.
#4 Aug 15 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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how long would a season last ? a week ?
if they ever put some condition like "this nm pop during summer", it would be a month to wait...(if they did that, just hope they would make it pop every hour during the season)
the effect on disciples of the land/hand woudn't be all that bad, if they goes with what is avaible... but some will always toy with the economy, selling off season supplies/crafted at high price after 3 weeks...

so much potential for seasons... yet even if SE manage to make it fine, players themselves will ***** it for each other :x

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 4:04am by DarkBiBi
#5 Aug 15 2009 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
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Well, let's just do some quick math. Assuming they go with regular seasons on a 365 day year (and I honestly can't recall what they did in XI, because who ever paid attention to the game year?), and we already know that we'll have hour long days...

One real life day would be 24 game days. Seasons would change every ~91 days (though probably gradually rather than all at once), so seasons would change a little less than every 4 real life days. You'd run the entire gamut of the seasons in just over two real life weeks.

Personally I'd probably prefer it to be a little longer than that. Maybe make the seasons cycle every month or even two so that it's not so incredibly common for the seasons to change. But whatever. It's unlikely that the seasons will sync up with real life seasons. Very unlikely.
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#6 Aug 15 2009 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah it would be pretty cool to have seasons, but waiting for NM's to pop in certain seasons would be killer.
#7 Aug 15 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Default
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/groan If there's any kind of camping or waiting for a pop, count me out.

I mean, we're at the cutting edge of gaming technology, and we're still playing the sit-and-wait game? Please.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#8 Aug 15 2009 at 3:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
/groan If there's any kind of camping or waiting for a pop, count me out.

I mean, we're at the cutting edge of gaming technology, and we're still playing the sit-and-wait game? Please.


Dunno if this is sarcasm or you've figured FFXIV will somehow not be a MMO..? o.O

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#9 Aug 15 2009 at 5:20 AM Rating: Default
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It's not like camping in an MMO is required. I mean, considering how many people hate it, you'd think developers would catch on. But I guess as long as people are willing to pay for that kind of "content"...
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#10 Aug 15 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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But, I mean, there is a certain nice element to certain monsters only popping under certain conditions. Maybe they won't drop anything of value so that they can just be there for immersion purposes. Or, well, maybe something that multiple NMs would drop. But getting rid of all free-roaming NMs takes away something, honestly.

Seasons would be awesome. One real-life month sounds just about right, though shorter or longer wouldn't be too bad. I would imagine it wouldn't necessarily apply to all areas. Seasonal changes don't apply to, say, deserts or snow-covered lands. Actually, on that note, if it changed how long days and nights were, well, that'd be pretty interesting. I can imagine certain areas would be favorable or not based on what the current climate is like.
#11 Aug 15 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Seasonal changes would be good for when fishing as well. Certain fish being able to caught at certain seasons would mean the rarity of cooked fish would be perfect for the economy as well, along with bite rates.

I wouldn't mind having more bite rates during certain seasons, that way, you can remove the daily fish cap and make it more realistic. However, the seasons cannot be any longer then a month that way. Just an idea..
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#12 Aug 15 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
"...the entire gamut of the seasons..."

Nice
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#13 Aug 15 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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But, I mean, there is a certain nice element to certain monsters only popping under certain conditions. Maybe they won't drop anything of value so that they can just be there for immersion purposes. Or, well, maybe something that multiple NMs would drop. But getting rid of all free-roaming NMs takes away something, honestly.


In my experience all it really takes away is camping and botting. Personally I don't want the challenge in getting a drop from an NM to be claiming the NM. Let me fight the NM, and if he whoops my ***, I'll gladly take nothing. Don't give me nothing because I have to sit for two hours along with half of China to even have a chance to FIGHT the NM.

Now NMs that don't really have any demand to be camped are fine, for whatever reason. Maybe even a few NMs that can spawn in so many places that they just can't possibly be camped, and your only hope is to stumble on them by happenstance. I don't have a problem with NMs that are just there to present a challenge, though honestly I still prefer if people can choose to take on that challenge without being incredibly lucky and/or patient.

I guess what I'm saying is that there should be enough content for everyone, and I don't like systems that arbitrarily limit the number of people who can enjoy certain game aspects. That's bad game design 101. Yeah, it feels great when you're lucky enough to get the claim, but at the expense of all those times when you and any number of other people are frustrated because they missed the boat.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Aug 15 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
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Yes it would be nice to see season changes, but it is something I could live with if there isnt,
but yeah it would add more realism.
#15 Aug 15 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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There was actually seasons in FFXI. The only example I can remember is that it could only snow in Batallia Downs in the winter months. Hopefully, FFXIV will be less subtle and more worldwide.
#16 Aug 15 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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perhaps they'll make you auger your own hole to fish through during the winter! :P

i like the idea though, i enjoy the snow. would be cool to see many zones snow covered
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#17 Aug 15 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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I don't mind "kill X-Y" number of mobs to make Z monster appear NM, but IMO it should appear claimed to whoever killed last PH not whoever sat there and waited for you to do the work and steal the prize. Timed NM pops suck too. If we're going to have NMs that vary with season it should be because the PH mobs change with the seasons.

edit: also, ridiculously low drop rates on heavily camped mobs are ********* if someone puts in the effort at least have adjusting drop rates to give him a better chance each time.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:53pm by shintasama
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#18 Aug 15 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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On the nm note.

I like the idea of a stumbling upon a rare monster. It was a cool idea on paper. If they made to where they were just there and didn't drop anything you couldn't get off the same type mob (maybe they drop more of the same stuff) there would be no reason to camp them. There has to be come creative ways to get gear that aren't so easily exploited by third party apps.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:56pm by LeadSalad

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 12:59pm by LeadSalad
#19 Aug 15 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind "kill X-Y" number of mobs to make Z monster appear NM, but IMO it should appear claimed to whoever killed last PH not whoever sat there and waited for you to do the work and steal the prize. Timed NM pops suck too. If we're going to have NMs that vary with season it should be because the PH mobs change with the seasons.

edit: also, ridiculously low drop rates on heavily camped mobs are bullsh*t, if someone puts in the effort at least have adjusting drop rates to give him a better chance each time.


I don't mind killing a few mobs to pop an NM, but in FFXI at least it frequently took too long. Sitting around for two hours isn't that much worse than killing the same mob for two hours. I just really prefer for there to be some predictability in NM spawns.

And **** low drop rates. ****, **** anything less than 50% with a rusty pitchfork. I can only sorta deal with drops not being 100%. I mean, yeah, maybe you got lucky on that victory, betcha can't do it again, etc. But honestly, if you can kill a mob twice, you can probably kill it until your patience runs out.

The bottom line for me will be that I'm not going to do a bunch of ridiculous camping or grinding, and if passing up on that means that my character can't be competitive, I'll quit.

Quote:
I like the idea of a stumbling upon a rare monster.


The problem is that if they don't have anything good, then it's not very exciting. If they do have anything good, it's almost impossible to "stumble" upon them without stumbling upon all the people who have been relentlessly searching for it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Aug 15 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
It's not like camping in an MMO is required. I mean, considering how many people hate it, you'd think developers would catch on. But I guess as long as people are willing to pay for that kind of "content"...


I personally enjoy a good NM hunt (good is the keyword...I don't like all of them). When I played FFXI it was my only source of gil (obviously before they made them ex) and I became pretty good at it. It's sort of an adrenaline shot, knowing your quarry is near, keeping your senses on alert and then finally finding it is exhilarating, even if you aren't the one to catch it...makes you try that much harder the next time. Which is what made the servers in japan annoying since japanese players had a huge advantage.

I liked NMs with a relatively large spawning area such as Leaping Lizzy and the Valkurm Emperor so that it doesn't turn into a matter of who has the least lag between their claim macro and the server. For those two NMs it's more a matter of knowing where they spawn and the most efficient way to check all of those spots.

LeadSalad wrote:
There has to be come creative ways to get gear that aren't so easily exploited by third party apps.


Another reason why giving NMs a large spawning area works because you didn't see bots running around the dunes trying to find the emperor. You can't really create a program that works better than an actual person at finding something that spawns at random places in a large area. Just get rid of NMs like argus who spawn pretty much in the same spot.

OR, you can use the public quest system from Warhammer Online. It's perfectly suited for NMs and not only is the reward not based on who claims it first but there are multiple awards and a system that gives a player who hasn't received an award a better chance to do so the more he does that public quest.

Edited, Aug 15th 2009 11:09am by Yogtheterrible
#21 Aug 15 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I liked NMs with a relatively large spawning area such as Leaping Lizzy and the Valkurm Emperor so that it doesn't turn into a matter of who has the least lag between their claim macro and the server. For those two NMs it's more a matter of knowing where they spawn and the most efficient way to check all of those spots.


I know that eventually people figured out spawn patterns for these NMs or something, but personally I had good success just spamming Wide Scan, but good lord. When you spam Wide Scan for 4 hours straight and Lizzy still doesn't show up, it changes you. Something inside of you... breaks. It breaks and it can never be repaired.

Anyway, I will pass on future opportunities for that kind of gameplay. I'm more than happy to hunt something with a little actual chase to it, though. But if you're going to make me work for the claim, at least guarantee me the drop, christ.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#22 Aug 15 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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I'm also a big fan of "popped" NMs from items/points, spamming tab for hours on end waiting for something with a 3-4hr window to appear sucks whether you're running in circles or standing in place.
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#23 Aug 16 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I for one always enjoyed forced pops. Find semi-rare item from said group of monsters, take to ???, fight mob, get drop.
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#24 Aug 16 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I think seasons would be a beneficial inclusion in the game, but I'm not sure they're worth the effort. Four seasons means four times the number of zones, one for each season. That is a lot of man hours on a very cosmetic feature.
#25 Aug 16 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, on the other hand, it's not like they have to start over completely from scratch. I think it's probably one of the more work-efficient ways to create atmosphere.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#26 Aug 17 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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You know, I'm not sure I get all the rage over NM camping. It wasn't my cup of tea because I'm not a gambler, but some people love that stuff. And it's not like it was almost ever mandatory. There were dozens of ways to earn money in the game, which you could then use to buy the drops. I don't see any harm in including some optional content that adds a thrill and a good source of income to a certain segment of the population.

So, er, yeah, seasons. I think there are some great possibilities there that people have proposed, but the fact that the developers said it was still only a possibility at this late stage in development probably means it'll be an extra aesthetic touch rather than the core gameplay mechanic we might hope for if it's included.
#27 Aug 17 2009 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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You know, I'm not sure I get all the rage over NM camping. It wasn't my cup of tea because I'm not a gambler, but some people love that stuff. And it's not like it was almost ever mandatory. There were dozens of ways to earn money in the game, which you could then use to buy the drops. I don't see any harm in including some optional content that adds a thrill and a good source of income to a certain segment of the population.


The rage is because some people that don't like it, can't imagine anybody that do like it. They can't for the life of them see why anybody would like that type of content. But, why some people like it shouldn't even matter. The fact is some people do like it, and I too don't see whats wrong with optional content for these people. The keyword is optional though, and their should be plenty of content for the people that don't enjoy camping. Content that they can use to maybe buy some of the items you get from the people that do camp.

I mean I don't like soccer, but I also don't get outraged when it comes on tv. I know their are people that do watch soccer, and I just simply turn on something else.

But, back on topic, I hope seasons play a factor in the world. But, I hope its not a huge factor, and like the world does not revolve around the seasons. It would be a nice feature to have, but I don't think it will be so important.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 12:49pm by HocusP
#28 Aug 17 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
The rage is because some people that don't like it, can't imagine anybody that do like it.

I think it has more to do with essentially being forced to camp or spend days repetitively farming millions of gil, and even that very unattractive gil option was the result of the NM system. You don't like soccer and understand that there are those that do, which is fine, but I think you would be annoyed if you were forced to watch every FIFA game.
#29 Aug 17 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I do not think we can expect the environment to change too much.

I believe it will be just like FFXI where there are decorations and things that hint at a different season. Heck look at oblivion a game that would be the most likely to include this stuff. It's been out for awhile but the amount of detail that goes into a game like that far surpases most others and they still didn't include too much environment changes, more or less they had zones with different environments.

I don't really care much if it happens or not. I like that a tropical jungle is... always tropical and a desert is always a desert beyond that is extra and not needed for me. I would rather have more time spent on making more immersive quests and npc's rather than an elaborate weather system.
#30 Aug 17 2009 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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I think it has more to do with essentially being forced to camp or spend days repetitively farming millions of gil, and even that very unattractive gil option was the result of the NM system. You don't like soccer and understand that there are those that do, which is fine, but I think you would be annoyed if you were forced to watch every FIFA game.

That seems like a different conversation to me. FFXI's economy was the result of a lot more than the NM system. It was an interaction between item/character stat design, spawn rates, drop rates, mob difficulty, alternative sources like BCNMs (and all the factors that affected those), availability of competing items, server populations, and of course player perception of what constituted adequate gear.
#31 Aug 17 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't forget the RMT's lol I knew lots of people that resulted to buying Gil because they couldn't not make enough in the time they had to buy the gear they needed. even people with lots of time thats all they did was farm Gil and still bought from RMT's sometimes. I'm not saying it's all their faults but it didn't help the inflation any at all because people were actually paying the ridiculously high prices.
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#32 Aug 17 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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I think it has more to do with essentially being forced to camp or spend days repetitively farming millions of gil, and even that very unattractive gil option was the result of the NM system. You don't like soccer and understand that there are those that do, which is fine, but I think you would be annoyed if you were forced to watch every FIFA game.


This is true, but you wasn't "forced" to camp Nms either. It wasn't the only means of making gil, and you could just buy the items that people camped like Borkachev said. Now if you wanted the rare/ex gear then yes you was forced to camp, but thats going to happen a lot. You could just as easily never camped a single nm, and instead leveled and collected beastman and kindred seals. Then used them seals and earned gil, then brought the items that people camped to get (of course not rare/ex items).
#33 Aug 17 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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That seems like a different conversation to me. FFXI's economy was the result of a lot more than the NM system. It was an interaction between item/character stat design, spawn rates, drop rates, mob difficulty, alternative sources like BCNMs (and all the factors that affected those), availability of competing items, server populations, and of course player perception of what constituted adequate gear.


Nah, Allegory pretty well nailed it.

Look, nobody camps Serpopard Ishtar for his Cerulean Pendant (ok, every once in a very long while, somebody goes a little nuts and decides to camp an utterly worthless NM). The thrill in camping NMs comes purely from getting valuable drops. Drops become valuable because there is a bottleneck in the supply and demand scheme. When this happens, the result is either that you camp for the item, you pay the high price, or you give up on it. Well, big surprise that people don't like it when none of their options are fun.

The exception is valuable EX drops, but that doesn't really in any way solve the problem. You're just taking away the option to buy it. It works out fine when the demand is low enough that you aren't forced to camp because it's probably already up.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#34 Aug 17 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I never thought of that. I would really like it though. It definitely keep things fresh and interesting for me. Even if I am in the zone I was in just a week ago, I would probably feel like I was in a completely different one.
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#35 Aug 17 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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The thrill in camping NMs comes purely from getting valuable drops. Drops become valuable because there is a bottleneck in the supply and demand scheme. When this happens, the result is either that you camp for the item, you pay the high price, or you give up on it. Well, big surprise that people don't like it when none of their options are fun.

Sure, but valuable items are always going to be hard to get. I feel like people are blaming the messenger here in complaining about camping NMs, when the average time commitment needed to acquire an item worth, say, one million gil is going to be approximately the same whether it's crafted, dropped by an NM, purchased with Assault points, or whatever. It's the nature of the market.

As the changes to Leaping Lizzy, Valkurm Emperor, and Argus showed, switching the source of an item away from a notorious monster doesn't make it any cheaper unless the new source is designed to increase the drop rate (it might make it harder to monopolize, but that's a different story). In fact, in those cases I would bet SE looked carefully at the NM and BCNM data and designed the BCNM to produce approximately the same number of drops over time as the NM did.

So the problem -- if it is a problem -- isn't that NMs are hard to camp. It's that the developers made a conscious decision to make those items hard to get, and the players decided to find them desirable.

If they wanted to make items easier to acquire in FFXIV, they could adjust anything from that list I posted and probably a few other things I haven't thought of. Spawn time and drop rates on NMs are just a tiny corner of the options.

Depending on how far they wanted to go, they could make all of the best items in FFXIV drop like rain from the sky, and everyone could have everything they wanted. I wouldn't want to play that game, though. We need outrageously expensive items or else the outrageous difficulty and time commitment of things like crafting has no reward.

I guess the trouble in FFXI was that many of these elite items became seen as mandatory by the playerbase. I don't really know why. Maybe the "culture" of the players can even be tweaked with certain design decisions.

But if all the usual shinies were made easy to get, I suspect we'd just find something new and less interesting to covet.
#36 Aug 17 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Borkachev wrote:

I guess the trouble in FFXI was that many of these elite items became seen as mandatory by the playerbase. I don't really know why. Maybe the "culture" of the players can even be tweaked with certain design decisions.


Simple. Players think that so and so are the best items and that for anyone to be considered good they must possess the items. Then individuals agree and strive to be that of the standards set by the collective. This is not the culture of FFXI, this is also the culture of everywhere else.
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#37 Aug 17 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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It's fine to have items that takes a little effort to get, but there is a lot of the gear in FFXI that is just ridiculous. 18-36 hour spawn times with 10-20% drop rates? That's just ********* If you have any kind of real life responsibilities it's impossible to camp that sort of thing, and even if not it's still masochistic. The presence of that sort of crap is why the RMT situation got so bad.
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#38 Aug 17 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure, but valuable items are always going to be hard to get. I feel like people are blaming the messenger here in complaining about camping NMs, when the average time commitment needed to acquire an item worth, say, one million gil is going to be approximately the same whether it's crafted, dropped by an NM, purchased with Assault points, or whatever. It's the nature of the market.


Valuable items aren't always hard to get. A Life Belt is a valuable item for a melee DD no matter what the price tag is at the AH, or how many hours you put into camping it.

But the point is that "hard to get" shouldn't have to be "excruciating to get." Nevermind that certain items in FFXI aren't just hard to get, but require real life -sacrifice-. Players can appreciate a challenge... no, they love one. It's when the challenge is BORING that they're turned off. When your only choices are grind out gil or camp for hours, then that's no fun. Making money from a BCNM, for example, is a lot more fun, as is doing a BCNM vs. camping in general.

And people fail BCNMs all the time, because many of them aren't that easy, and some of them are downright impossible without an ideal strategy. But you can't just do BCNMs as much as you like, unfortunately. ****, you can't even do them regularly, unless you want to farm for seals, which of course is just about as fun as farming anything else.

It's a huge design flaw when the value of the item is measured by dedication rather than challenge.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Aug 18 2009 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Valuable items aren't always hard to get. A Life Belt is a valuable item for a melee DD no matter what the price tag is at the AH, or how many hours you put into camping it.

I'm talking specifically about financially valuable items, which as I said are essential to a good game economy. Without them money becomes worthless and boring, and you lose a huge portion of the game experience.

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But the point is that "hard to get" shouldn't have to be "excruciating to get." Nevermind that certain items in FFXI aren't just hard to get, but require real life -sacrifice-. Players can appreciate a challenge... no, they love one. It's when the challenge is BORING that they're turned off. When your only choices are grind out gil or camp for hours, then that's no fun. Making money from a BCNM, for example, is a lot more fun, as is doing a BCNM vs. camping in general.

You can't generalize like that. I know for a fact that plenty of people loved fighting NMs. Everything about it: the competition, the waiting, the claiming, the fight, and the uncertain chance for a drop. It all added to the thrill. It also had some definite advantages over BCNMs, like usually only taking one person instead of six, and requiring no upfront investment.

But of course I'm not arguing that they should get rid of BCNMs, even though I personally didn't enjoy them much (all the pressure and commitment of gathering people, preparing equipment and strategy, and trekking out there for an hour took the fun out of it). I want to see as many options for raising money as possible, so that everyone can find something they like.

I would argue that some items should be excruciating to get. Now, ideally those should be restricted to luxury items, not standard items, but the question of which is which and how the game can separate them is tricky. I might say that a 24-hour pop NM as part of a level-40 quest is going a bit far... but damned if finally claiming Morbolger wasn't the biggest thrill I ever had in that game.
#40 Aug 18 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Default
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You can't generalize like that. I know for a fact that plenty of people loved fighting NMs. Everything about it: the competition, the waiting, the claiming, the fight, and the uncertain chance for a drop. It all added to the thrill. It also had some definite advantages over BCNMs, like usually only taking one person instead of six, and requiring no upfront investment.


Yes plenty people loved and still do love Nms. Bcnms was fine but I would much rather hunt an NM for gil. Like Borkachev said though, I don't want any content removed from the game, and the more ways to make money the better. The people that like nms could hunt them and the people that like other ways could enjoy that. These people would eventually meet eachother at the ah, when they sell and buy items. Everybody could find their niche in the game, and enjoy it in their own way.

Quote:
I would argue that some items should be excruciating to get. Now, ideally those should be restricted to luxury items, not standard items, but the question of which is which and how the game can separate them is tricky. I might say that a 24-hour pop NM as part of a level-40 quest is going a bit far... but damned if finally claiming Morbolger wasn't the biggest thrill I ever had in that game.


Their will always be some rare items to get, but I agree it shouldn't be on standard items. I was in a group of 3 when I went after Morbolger, so I had to claim 3 times. It is great when you claim a nm, just the excitement and the thrill. FFXi just gave you the biggest rush in a game, on many things. It was exciting not knowing whats going to happen, and what is going to drop (not on Morbolger of course it was 100%). I mean I play madden and see the defense and know i'm going to score on this play. Not much excitement in that. Same as I play fps or gears of war, and know im about to get a kill. In ffxi, you never knew what was going to happen at a NM camp, rather that be HNMs or just NMs. Then the people I did them with (mostly hnms, so my ls and rl friends) made it even better, was just a joy and fun times to chill with them at a camp.
#41 Aug 18 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm talking specifically about financially valuable items, which as I said are essential to a good game economy. Without them money becomes worthless and boring, and you lose a huge portion of the game experience.


And as I pointed out, long pop times and low drop rates are not the only way to adjust supply to item demand. At the same time, they are the least fun way to do it.

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You can't generalize like that. I know for a fact that plenty of people loved fighting NMs. Everything about it: the competition, the waiting, the claiming, the fight, and the uncertain chance for a drop. It all added to the thrill. It also had some definite advantages over BCNMs, like usually only taking one person instead of six, and requiring no upfront investment.


Oh please. One man's thrill in this case is one hundred people's dismay. There's no reason they couldn't have made solo BCNMs, and some of them were actually soloable. Further, not all are 6-person, many are 3. But you missed the point, which was not to compare FFXI camping to FFXI BCNMs, but to compare camping in general to instanced battles in general.

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But of course I'm not arguing that they should get rid of BCNMs, even though I personally didn't enjoy them much (all the pressure and commitment of gathering people, preparing equipment and strategy, and trekking out there for an hour took the fun out of it). I want to see as many options for raising money as possible, so that everyone can find something they like.

I would argue that some items should be excruciating to get. Now, ideally those should be restricted to luxury items, not standard items, but the question of which is which and how the game can separate them is tricky. I might say that a 24-hour pop NM as part of a level-40 quest is going a bit far... but damned if finally claiming Morbolger wasn't the biggest thrill I ever had in that game.


I'm agreeing with you that there needs to be options, but I'm not sure that you're acknowledging how the options shouldn't all break down into camping or grinding.

Well, I will always disagree with the idea that any items should be excruciating to get. Challenging, ok, but never painfully so. I don't want to put diamond carrots out there on mile-long strings for people who will feel compelled to pursue them at nearly any cost. Take relics for example... sure it's kind of neat that such powerful weapons are so rare, but at least when I see one, I don't think, "Wow, that person is amazing." I think, "Wow, that person should probably play a little less... I think I'm going to go for a walk..." Getting a relic is certainly a test of your dedication to the game, and not much else, so it's not really all that meritorious.

Now on the other hand, when I see some people play fighting games, or challenge them to strategy games, they can really impress. Just so you know that I'm not saying that being good in a video game is automatically bad, but that in FFXI being well equipped seldom reveals a player's skill and frequently reveals a player's /playtime.

We both recognize that valuable items should be harder to get, but where we disagree is with the methods and intensity. I think certain items should represent a milestone in a player's improvement and skill, and not their willingness to camp or farm for exorbitant lengths of time. Make a mob that's incredibly difficult, by all means, but make access to the fight relatively easy. Makes battles challenging, not getting to battles.

The ride is not a bonus to waiting in line... it's the reason people get in line in the first place. How do you think most people would feel if they waited in line and finally were told that they couldn't ride the rollercoaster? Do you think they'd say, "Well that's ok, just waiting in line was a thrill of its own!"
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#42 Aug 18 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh please. One man's thrill in this case is one hundred people's dismay.

I doubt it's as skewed as that, but it doesn't matter even if it was. The fact that there were five people at some of those camps 24/7 for years on end shows that at least that many people thought camping was a more appealing way to earn gil than the alternatives.

If you did enough camping to develop such a dislike for it, I can't believe that you didn't get a taste of the thrill that went with it, too. Seeing the Valkurm Emperor pop on wide scan and rushing towards it, knowing that everyone else in the area is doing the same got your heart pumping like few things could. Getting the claim was exhilarating, and actually getting the drop gave a high that lasted all day. Even if you never got it, it was the lottery of FFXI. There was always the possibility out there that you could get lucky and strike it rich. It gave people something to dream about.

Instanced battles just can't replicate that. Not the full experience, anyway. They've still got the challenge of the fight and the random drops (unless you're arguing for 100% drop rates on everything, in which case you're nuts).

Quote:
We both recognize that valuable items should be harder to get, but where we disagree is with the methods and intensity. I think certain items should represent a milestone in a player's improvement and skill, and not their willingness to camp or farm for exorbitant lengths of time. Make a mob that's incredibly difficult, by all means, but make access to the fight relatively easy. Makes battles challenging, not getting to battles.

I think they're both important. Patience and dedication are virtues just as much as skill is. There's nothing wrong with rewarding both, and again, by offering rewards for both you include and appeal to a larger and more diverse group of players. In the real world -- in sports and business, for instance -- skill and commitment usually go hand-in-hand.

But in any case, there are plenty of problems with emphasizing skill over dedication in an MMORPG.

-By their nature, the games are about character growth over time, i.e. long-term dedication to a goal. It's at the core of every aspect of gameplay. If it were only about skill it would be an online FPS or action game... and even those have started to realize that players find RPG elements more rewarding in the long run. Stuff like Call of Duty 4, Team Fortress 2, and Metal Gear Online all require large inputs of time to unlock new skills and equipment. Skill helps to speed that process along, of course, but it's not the only requirement. Proving your skill in one match doesn't unlock all the best content. That would get old in about two hours.
-In FFXI and lots of other MMORPGs, it's a stretch to call what we do "skill." There's a lot of knowledge involved, some mastery of the controls, and a bit of timing, but more than that there's a **** of a lot of common sense and luck. Your ability is mostly a function of your character's skills, which again are a function of your time input.
-Even if FFXIV does emphasize skill and strategy more, the fundamental problem with these attributes is that they can be instantly duplicated. If somebody with sufficient skill can win an unrestricted fight once and get the reward, he can do it many times. So can everyone else with similar skill, and the reward quickly becomes worthless. That's why hard restrictions on the rewards are essential, whether that's done through spawn rates, drop rates, seal collection, or just cooldown times.

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The ride is not a bonus to waiting in line... it's the reason people get in line in the first place. How do you think most people would feel if they waited in line and finally were told that they couldn't ride the rollercoaster? Do you think they'd say, "Well that's ok, just waiting in line was a thrill of its own!"

Indeed, the ride is the reward for waiting in line (and paying the gate fee, obviously). But that's a different case, with temporary, intangible, guaranteed rewards and no competition. If people had to race to the coaster to gain access, and one of the cars randomly had a box in it, and there was some chance of that box having a large sum of money in it... you bet they would think the lineup was a thrill. People would come from around the world.

We have those attractions in the real world, in fact, but we don't call them amusement parks. We call them casinos.
#43 Aug 18 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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I sort of like the idea of seasons in the game. Like being able to travel across a lake in the winter versus having to go around it in the summer.

Btw

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That NM was my first "Hey, I wonder if I can solo that NM" moment on my level 16 Bst. heh
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#44 Aug 18 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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I doubt it's as skewed as that, but it doesn't matter even if it was. The fact that there were five people at some of those camps 24/7 for years on end shows that at least that many people thought camping was a more appealing way to earn gil than the alternatives.


Oh, I'm sure there were, just as there are many people who would rather try their luck with the lottery than earn money slowly, steadily, and surely. Even though statistically speaking, people who camped for money tended to get screwed royally and could have made far more money through other methods. They usually either didn't realize it or believed that they would get lucky.

Quote:
If you did enough camping to develop such a dislike for it, I can't believe that you didn't get a taste of the thrill that went with it, too. Seeing the Valkurm Emperor pop on wide scan and rushing towards it, knowing that everyone else in the area is doing the same got your heart pumping like few things could. Getting the claim was exhilarating, and actually getting the drop gave a high that lasted all day. Even if you never got it, it was the lottery of FFXI. There was always the possibility out there that you could get lucky and strike it rich. It gave people something to dream about.


And by all means keep those in the game. Personally 5 seconds of excitement wasn't a sufficient reward for 2 hours of vigilant boredom usually followed by disappointment when I either didn't get the claim or didn't get the drop. But while you keep them in the game, don't make them the only way to get an item... certainly not the most reliable, or best way to get the item.

Quote:
Instanced battles just can't replicate that. Not the full experience, anyway. They've still got the challenge of the fight and the random drops (unless you're arguing for 100% drop rates on everything, in which case you're nuts).


I was always more exhilarated by BCNMs than camping, personally. Usually because there was actually a challenge, and camped monsters usually provided no challenge at all after the claim.

But do explain to me what's nuts about 100% drop rates. I don't think you really need to... I think I've already got you pegged as a *********.

Quote:
Patience and dedication are virtues just as much as skill is.


Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

Not in this case.

Quote:
But in any case, there are plenty of problems with emphasizing skill over dedication in an MMORPG.


I'm just going to cut to the only argument you made that was relevant; replicating strategy. And to that there is a very simple answer: randomness.

Quote:
Indeed, the ride is the reward for waiting in line (and paying the gate fee, obviously). But that's a different case, with temporary, intangible, guaranteed rewards and no competition. If people had to race to the coaster to gain access, and one of the cars randomly had a box in it, and there was some chance of that box having a large sum of money in it... you bet they would think the lineup was a thrill. People would come from around the world.

We have those attractions in the real world, in fact, but we don't call them amusement parks. We call them casinos.


To correct your analogy, it would be like if there might be a box of money in one of the seats, but you're not guaranteed to even get to ride on the rollercoaster. And the rollercoaster sucks anyway. I think your line just got a lot shorter.

Comparing it to a casino is appropriate, except that you're actually playing games when you gamble in them. Ironically, when you gamble in the video game, the one that's actually supposed to just be a game, you pretty much just sit around waiting.

I think the "sit and wait for a slight chance to win" game would actually do very poorly even among the casino-going crowd.

Another way the casino analogy is apt: People more often leave with regret and disappointment than with a smile on their face. My dad is a dealer in Vegas, btw. When I go to the casinos, I just watch people play.
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#45 Aug 18 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Multidude wrote:
I sort of like the idea of seasons in the game. Like being able to travel across a lake in the winter versus having to go around it in the summer.


I think this would be a great idea (imagine that area in FFXII, if you remember -- between the rainy season and the dry, it totally changed the flavor of the place). Anywhere from two RL weeks to a full month would be a good interval for a season, I think.

In general though, I hope SE puts a little more detail into the timekeeping aspect of this game than they did with FFXI. The years went by too quickly and never seemed to sync with the in-game story. A little thing, sure, and it didn't have any impact on gameplay, but I found it annoying.
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#46 Aug 18 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this would be a great idea (imagine that area in FFXII, if you remember -- between the rainy season and the dry, it totally changed the flavor of the place).


I know the Region your talking about and when it rained it didn't totally mess up the whole region so you couldn't get any where. it was really well done in FFXII. and I would have to agree on minor things like that, it adds something new to add more time to the game because you don't know what the weather is like.
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#47 Aug 18 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But do explain to me what's nuts about 100% drop rates. I don't think you really need to... I think I've already got you pegged as a *********.

It goes back to this:

Quote:
That's why hard restrictions on the rewards are essential, whether that's done through spawn rates, drop rates, seal collection, or just cooldown times.

I'm not sure about how extreme a change you're looking for. Would you eliminate all of the time and work required to access a battle (camping/pop killing for NMs, seal farming and travel for BCNMs) so that you just teleport instantly to a spawn point and click an object to start? And once you're finished, you're guaranteed the drop?

It would utterly destroy the economy and the game. Without work there is no reward, either financial or emotional. I don't think you would want to play a game like that. Not for more than a couple months, anyway.

You mention randomness as a solution to the nonstop farming of high-end items that would result. What does that mean? Unless you're talking about something cheap like varying the level of the enemies between easy and impossible, there isn't anything you could randomize that would daunt a competent, flexible player. ****, even if only the top 1% of players on the server could handle it, that would be enough to flood the market. It doesn't have to be just braindead people following an online guide.

I promise, I'm not a *********. I think a 5% drop rate from a monster that's difficult to claim in the first place is out of hand, which is why I never bothered with them. And relic weapons are so extreme that they're downright unhealthy. But a 25% drop rate on something moderately camped? **** yeah, bring that on. And I recognize that other people's tolerances for that stuff may be higher or lower.
#48 Aug 18 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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it would be good if seasons were invloved i always think when i play ffxi the texturing and weather effects could be so much better.
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#49 Aug 18 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Regarding NMs, I had this idea: Go ahead and make some of them the annoying camping-claiming-hopeyougetdrop method, but add in a point system. Here's how it works:

- Receive key item from NPC (Battle Recorder or something)
- Be in party that defeats NM with desired drop (get drop if you're lucky, or!)
- Having defeated that NM, its info is now recorded in your key item. Now, you get to amass points to exchange for items at the aforementioned NPC. This NPC will only offer the items from the NMs you've recorded at different point values. To earn points, you kill NMs, and each NM has its own value. Using FFXI as an example:

Leaping Lizzy: 5 points
Simurgh: 20 points
King Behemoth: 200 points

Bounding Boots: 20 points
Trotter Boots: 100 points
Pixie Earring: 250 points
Behemoth Tongue: 600 points
Defending Ring: 1000 points

To create a higher availability of points, you can also have HQ mobs that grant 1 point per kill (using FFXI as an example, when Grand Marids pop in place of Marids).

Thoughts?
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#50 Aug 18 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I like this seasons idea quiet a bit and like sombody said earlier about NMs, about how certain nms only pop in the summer others in the winter etc etc, that could be fixed by having said nm Migrate(when the seasons change) to other zones.
SE could make it so that drop rates are effected by what zone you pop them in so that you actually have a reason to wait for X season in Y zone to pop Z mob.
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#51 Aug 18 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see having seasons influence crafting and certain player skills, like a Geomancer for example. I can also see seasons influencing crafting, certain items harvested in certain seasons. As well as most of what has been said about HNM and NM's. I hope this is the case, it would make things so awesome. Esp if Geomancer is a class that will be playable.
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