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What is this game really?Follow

#1 Aug 16 2009 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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With all this new info and developer interviews everyone is doing alot of speculation. There's alot of debating on how new features will work and how SE should deal with issues from it's previous mmo and other mmos.

How do you improve on ffxi? How do you make a mmo that competes with WoW?
Maybe SE answer to these questions is, you don't.

All these new features are pretty radical changes to what we've seen in mmos. No leveling, change jobs anytime, teleporting as a widely used method of transportation, and easy access to quests through guild leves. Maybe SE isn't looking at this from the same perspective. Maybe this isn't going to be a mmo with a ff theme slapped on it (like ffxi), but a ff game with mmo mechanics.
#2 Aug 16 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, the reason why this game is an MMO is because it was originally SE's vision to make the best final fantasy game ever made. They decided that in order to make the best final fantasy game, they would have to make it an mmo. Perhaps that is why it seems like it is in your perspective.

Personally, i have a strong feeling this is going to be a very traditional FF game, but be an mmo as well. Everything that ties to the final fantasy series(chocobos, gil, crystals, tonberries, cid, etc.) will be in this game, just based on that sense.
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#3 Aug 16 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
LeadSalad wrote:
Maybe this isn't going to be a mmo with a ff theme slapped on it (like ffxi), but a ff game with mmo mechanics.


This, this right here.

***** mechanics and systems as we know it. They've already said they are doing away with many that we already know about, like the experience points grind fest. I want a game that focuses on content, instead of having you do something over and over and over. That sort of style gets so boring. Exciting battles, that are judged off of skill and the ability of finding them, not just who can claim the fastest. I want a game overflowing with in depth quests, missions, stories, and countless new area's to explore.

I want a MMORPG
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#4 Aug 16 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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LeadSalad wrote:
How do you make a mmo that competes with WoW?

You don't.
You'd be stupid to try.
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#5 Aug 16 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see why every MMO has to compete against WoW. As long as we enjoy the game, (which we obviously do because we play it over WoW and other MMO's) why attract the attention of all those immature 10 year olds that play WoW. One thing I grew to love about FFXI was that, while there was the occasional idiot, the community was very mature and willing to cooperate. I was perfectly fine with my server size, and infact I think adding a few thousand more during those peak years would have caused major problems. Wanting to play the most popular MMO is like joining the football team because it's cool, when in reality you love baseball. I'd be perfectly fine if the population of FFXIV was the same as XI, obviously I wish others could experience how good it is, but it doesn't work like that nowadays, people are far too stubborn.

Let me garuntee one thing, this game will be awesome. SE is putting waaaayyy to much time into this to produce a total flop. They aren't just taking shots in the dark with the new systems, they have definitely tested them and made sure they still work in an MMO game. Many will disagree but I don't think SE has ever screwed up an original game. FFXII has those people that love to make fun of it because it's different but it is by no means a bad game. They realized that MMO's are the future of gaming and they tried to make FFXII like that. Some will complain about the lack of turnbased fighting, and the openness of the world, but when you match that up with other games that are similar, XII takes a big **** on them. They tried a more action oriented game with Kingdom Hearts, and now that game has it's own cult following. They are geniuses when it comes to anything RPG.

Stupid biased NA websites and magazines may bash the creativity and innovativeness that SE is bringing with this new game, but it will be a great RPG if you log on for the first time with an open mind, that's a promise.

#6 Aug 16 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Let me garuntee one thing, this game will be awesome. SE is putting waaaayyy to much time into this to produce a total flop. They aren't just taking shots in the dark with the new systems, they have definitely tested them and made sure they still work in an MMO game. Many will disagree but I don't think SE has ever screwed up an original game. FFXII has those people that love to make fun of it because it's different but it is by no means a bad game. They realized that MMO's are the future of gaming and they tried to make FFXII like that. Some will complain about the lack of turnbased fighting, and the openness of the world, but when you match that up with other games that are similar, XII takes a big sh*t on them. They tried a more action oriented game with Kingdom Hearts, and now that game has it's own cult following. They are geniuses when it comes to anything RPG.


I loved FFXII, I wish sometimes that it was an MMO. I didn't like X or X-2 lol but I agree with you in it's entirety. I played both FFXI and WoW and I myself prefer FFXI and I will definitely Prefer XIV but I try to never compare the two because to me both did well and I really had my fun, but SE I think is a head of the game because it is amazing with it's RPG's and it's immersion into games. I will put large sums of money down to say that they learned the lessons they needed too the first time around. there aren't many Sequels to MMO's and this one will definitely show what SE can do.
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#7 Aug 16 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't have to compete with WoW. If the game is primarily an mmo than it will directly compete with WoW for subscribers. If it's first and foremost a ff game they would be pullin subcribers from their already established ff fanbase. Alot of them were turned of by ffxi being an mmo. Many quit when they saw ffxi for what it was. All of these features that are geared toward making the game more accessible. It like SE is saying "We know you're weary of playing an mmo but we've made this game easier to deal with. Now come play the newest ff". The ff series has sold over 85 million copies. That's a large and dedicated fanbase to pull from without having to take mmo players from WoW.
#8 Aug 16 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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They'd be stupid to compete with WoW, but they'd be stupid not to compete with Blizzard.
This is a business afterall, if they're not trying to push off the King of the Mountain, they're wasting their time.

None of what we've learned of FFXIV so far is actually an innovation.
Much like how WoW is an amalgamation of all the changes the MMO Industry was exploring in the late 90's, so is FFXIV shaping up to be an amalgamation of all the changes the MMO Industry is exploring now. They're not copying WoW's game, they learned from Blizzard what made it such a good one in the first place.

I do agree, though, I think SE is being more true to their roots this time. I'm glad SE adopted Quest-based progression, for example. Storytelling is one of their strong points. In FFXI it ended up being an oil and water affair, while it was present in the game it largely segregated from progression. Hopefully this time around storytelling will permeate every aspect making a more immersive living world.

Though I'm still going to get on their case about the generic D&D races.


Edited, Aug 17th 2009 12:31am by Zemzelette
#9 Aug 16 2009 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
In all honesty, before MMO's existed, who all knew about Warcraft games? Sure they were fairly popular, but they didn't light a match to the Final Fantasy series. Everyone knew about, everyone talked about, everyone worshiped Final Fantasy, especially after Final Fantasy VII hit. Warcraft games were just another "medicore" series in the eyes of gamers. They were okay games, and they had fans, but again they didn't compare to the following the Final Fantasy name had.

This all changed when MMORPG's came onto the scene. FFXI simply was too time consuming and had too many drawbacks, while WoW had all the elements most people were looking for. Even though FFXI had a much more rich and detailed feeling world, a better environment, and arguably much better graphics.

Square Enix still has the "Final Fantasy" franchise and that name on their side. I think they could make an Epic Monster if they did it right. It would take awhile, and they will have to get past the Bias and Paid Off western media, but I think it could be done. I could honestly see FFXIV some day having as many if not many more subscribers than WoW. I think they deserve it, after all the great RPG games they delivered to us throughout the years. I want to see them in they spot the deserve, which is king of MMORPG's.

Now, I'm sure this title wouldn't come immediately, and they will have to work their way up, and prove to people it's not a carbon copy of either WoW or FFXI, but something completely different. There are indeed things they should take over from FFXI, and things they could learn from WoW, but it needs to be it's own unique game in more ways than those.

Could Square Enix pull it off? I think so, I don't think it's stupid to think they could either. I'm not saying they will, and I know it's a long stretch, but I see it as the flagship MMORPG -especially for gamers being 18+ years old- some day. So don't put it past them.

But if it doesn't end up as big as WoW? That's fine to, I just hope it gets the publicity it deserves, the attention it deserves, the respect it deserves, and a decent community. If they have a few million very strong and dedicated players, I would call it a mission success.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 9:55pm by EndlessJourney
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#10 Aug 16 2009 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney wrote:
In all honesty, before MMO's existed, who all knew about Warcraft games? Sure they were fairly popular, but they didn't light a match to the Final Fantasy series. Everyone knew about, everyone talked about, everyone worshiped Final Fantasy, especially after Final Fantasy XII hit.

Emphasis above is mine. You meant FFVII, right?

On topic: Like many others here, I would be okay without millions of players flooding to FFXIV. I won't generalize and say the entire player base of WoW is a bunch of 15 year olds who don't know how to behave because I know the statistics show the average player to be 26 or so.

A fairer explanation is that that a higher number of people playing a game means a greater chance for competing egos and goals. It means a greater chance for conflicting playstyles and a higher total number of jerks.

So, I hope for a happy medium. I hope for enough subscribers to keep the game supported to a high degree without making it so their is no sense of community or permanency among players. I want my server to be a place where we know each other to some extent, or at least know each other by guild affiliation.
#11 Aug 16 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
Ralsu wrote:
You meant FFVII, right?


Yeah, sorry about that, got my roman numerals mixed up. Fixed.
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#12 Aug 16 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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Wait, teleportation is a widely used method of transportation? That can really break immersion if they do that wrong.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/75-Oblivion

sums up immersion breaking pretty nicely
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#13 Aug 16 2009 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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FaithseekerOishii wrote:
Wait, teleportation is a widely used method of transportation? That can really break immersion if they do that wrong.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/75-Oblivion

sums up immersion breaking pretty nicely


It's already in ffxi, just not in enough quantity or variety.
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#14 Aug 16 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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***** mechanics and systems as we know it.


This. It's going to be different. Don't be scared though change can be a good thing.

Alot of people are speculating on how this and that will work but aren't think far enough outside of the box. Just because something sounds like it wouldn't work in a circumstance that are in most mmo doesn't mean that it'll be broken/overpowered/unbalanced. Not many people are entertaining the thought of those circumstances won't even exist in this game and will therefore not be an issue.
#15 Aug 16 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I started FFXI with the NA release and played for three years until I quit for good and played WoW. I've been playing WoW on and off since then. I also started WoW when it was released and quit after the 30day trial. WoW is a great game with a lot of exciting stuff coming up, the new expansion pack is going to be amazing if the speculations are true. However WoW never held a candle to FFXI when it come to community, story and complexity. Remember FFXI came out first, the folks at Blizzard where able to take what was wrong with the current MMO's in the market and improve on them and come up with their own mechanics. SE has spent the past FIVE years making this game. They took everything that they saw wrong with FFXI and improved on it. They took our ******** into account and fixed things and looked at the current MMO's in the market and improved and learned from them. FFXIV is going to be a better game then WoW because it's new, its FINAL FANTASY and WoW is entering his senior citizen stage. There are a **** load of MMO's out in the next year and a half that ARE going to compete and take subscribers from WoW. AION, Star Wars, and FFXIV are in my opinion WoW's biggests threats. All three games are bringing MMO's to that next level. All in all FFXIV in my opinion is going to be an EPIC game and I really don't think we are going to be disappointed, well not in the first year at least lol
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#16 Aug 16 2009 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Wanting to play the most popular MMO is like joining the football team because it's cool, when in reality you love baseball


What if the problem isn't that it's "cool" to join the football team, but more an issue of your friends all deciding to join the football team. Do you want to play baseball with a bunch of strangers? Ok, true we make friends on the team, go out for pizza afterwards etc etc.. but when all your close buddies are yapping about football and don't want to hear about your homerun earlier in the day, it makes you consider playing football just to be with them. That's the problem with making a game that only appeals to a small minority of gamers. It's not that people leave because they don't love the game, they leave because all of their friends are in Azeroth. I don't want this game to be anything like WoW, but I am certainly happy that it's going to be solo/casual friendly. Most of my friends all have jobs, wives (myself included), girlfriends, college, etc.. I think many people who started FFXI back in 2003 have the same issues, we're all getting older and busier. I don't feel SE needs to create a new and improved WoW clone to compete with blizzard, I think they're doin just fine so far. I wouldn't be surprised if a nice chunk of Blizzard's customers stop in and stay.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 12:52am by GuardianFaith
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#17 Aug 17 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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WoW isn't really a regular game (just like the Sims isn't a regular game to compare other PC games with), it's a phenomenon . While it's all fine and dandy to take ideas and lessons from the game and incorporate into your own, trying to push it off the "throne" is lunacy. FFXI was succesful because it had its own niche in the MMORPG world.

While games in the same genre (MMORPGs in this case) are obviously competing in with each other in a sense, you don't go head to head with something like WoW. You identify your playerbase and carve out your own place in the genre. That said, there will always be a certain "switching of crowds" between MMORPGs, but yeah... Let's say that I REALLY doubt FFXIV will be able to compete with WoW in terms of player numbers (which is a good thing in my book).

So for all the "casualizing" of FFXIV when compared to FFXI, I most certainly hope it will not be a dumbed down game that any ol' idiot can pick up and play just fine. While FFXI leaned way too much towards timesinks, I enjoyed the game partially because it was hard and unforgiving in some places. If I can breeze through the game without a care, then I will most certainly not enjoy it personally.

Also, it's pretty much meaningless advice of course, but I'd caution against hailing FFXIV as the one game to rule them all before it's released. Keeping your expectations at a sane level is the best way to avoid disappointment (and rest assured, while I think FFXIV will be a great game, there will be *loads* of stuff to cry about once it's released).

So while I say ***** the time sinks, I would definetely hope that the gameplay is not as thin as paper and so easy that I can sleep through it and still accomplish things, and that the only draw will not be the "uber story". Provide good, challenging gameplay. I consider the rest to be fluff. A good story is nice, but can't carry the game.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 10:09am by LeinadiOdin
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#18 Aug 17 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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So while I say ***** the time sinks, I would definetely hope that the gameplay is not as thin as paper and so easy that I can sleep through it and still accomplish things, and that the only draw will not be the "uber story". Provide good, challenging gameplay. I consider the rest to be fluff. A good story is nice, but can't carry the game.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 10:09am by LeinadiOdin
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Did you play by yourself a lot?
No malice intended, just a question.
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#19 Aug 17 2009 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
LeinadiOdin wrote:
WoW isn't really a regular game (just like the Sims isn't a regular game to compare other PC games with), it's a phenomenon . While it's all fine and dandy to take ideas and lessons from the game and incorporate into your own, trying to push it off the "throne" is lunacy. FFXI was succesful because it had its own niche in the MMORPG world.

While games in the same genre (MMORPGs in this case) are obviously competing in with each other in a sense, you don't go head to head with something like WoW. You identify your playerbase and carve out your own place in the genre. That said, there will always be a certain "switching of crowds" between MMORPGs, but yeah... Let's say that I REALLY doubt FFXIV will be able to compete with WoW in terms of player numbers (which is a good thing in my book).

So for all the "casualizing" of FFXIV when compared to FFXI, I most certainly hope it will not be a dumbed down game that any ol' idiot can pick up and play just fine. While FFXI leaned way too much towards timesinks, I enjoyed the game partially because it was hard and unforgiving in some places. If I can breeze through the game without a care, then I will most certainly not enjoy it personally.

Also, it's pretty much meaningless advice of course, but I'd caution against hailing FFXIV as the one game to rule them all before it's released. Keeping your expectations at a sane level is the best way to avoid disappointment (and rest assured, while I think FFXIV will be a great game, there will be *loads* of stuff to cry about once it's released).

So while I say ***** the time sinks, I would definetely hope that the gameplay is not as thin as paper and so easy that I can sleep through it and still accomplish things, and that the only draw will not be the "uber story". Provide good, challenging gameplay. I consider the rest to be fluff. A good story is nice, but can't carry the game.


Jeez! Talk about pessimistic. Yeah, it probably won't have 20 million subscribers right off the bat, and I hope it doesn't either. But it's not even out yet, and square enix is saying they want it to be a ground breaker in both MMORPG and Final Fantasy history.

There's nothing saying it couldn't take us all by surprise, that they might not finally wise up and spend a ton on advertising and marketing, and some time down the road it have millions of players. Dismissing the possibility when something hasn't even hit the shelves is the only lunacy.

Not only that, but the story in FFXI is one of the main things that DID carry and support the game. I want a game with a good story and feel. Not something that is REALLY good at letting me hit a monster over and over and over, and has good mechanics with that. Sure, that is important, but a RPG game without a good story? Lunacy.
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#20 Aug 17 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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This game is not guaranteed to be good. It's almost guaranteed to be a success in the way that almost anything that SE makes with the Final Fantasy title on it is a success. But then, people can't unsubscribe to their single player games, either.

Not that I don't love SE... the only game developer that even competes with SE in my book is Nintendo. So look, when I say that SE makes some bad games, recognize that I do so with the understanding that SE has practically -defined- the roleplaying genre. They set the standard for good games... as well as the standard for average and crappy games. The point I'm trying to make is that while SE is capable of making the next greatest game of all time, they're also capable of making a completely mediocre game.

Actually, I'd almost sooner they make a complete failure than a mediocre success. A mediocre success will likely remain a mediocre success. A complete failure might make them take a step back and renew their vision for the game. Of course, I prefer if it's just amazing right out of the gate.
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#21 Aug 17 2009 at 12:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Provide good, challenging gameplay. I consider the rest to be fluff. A good story is nice, but can't carry the game.


This is thinking inside the box. In most MMOs you are correct. But if I'm not in a zone because these mobs are better for xp or this mob drops loot that I want, but rather I'm there because the story led me there, you can start to see how story can carry a game. Story can easily carry a game if the game is story driven.
#22 Aug 17 2009 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I don't think I'll be playing a storyless Final Fantasy game, or even another "XII."
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Aug 17 2009 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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Jeez! Talk about pessimistic. Yeah, it probably won't have 20 million subscribers right off the bat, and I hope it doesn't either. But it's not even out yet, and square enix is saying they want it to be a ground breaker in both MMORPG and Final Fantasy history.

There's nothing saying it couldn't take us all by surprise, that they might not finally wise up and spend a ton on advertising and marketing, and some time down the road it have millions of players. Dismissing the possibility when something hasn't even hit the shelves is the only lunacy.

Not only that, but the story in FFXI is one of the main things that DID carry and support the game. I want a game with a good story and feel. Not something that is REALLY good at letting me hit a monster over and over and over, and has good mechanics with that. Sure, that is important, but a RPG game without a good story? Lunacy.


Pessimistic, eh? I have all the faith in the world that FFXIV will be a success, both in terms of gameplay as well as financially. I was responding to the quote in the original post, how do you make a mmo that competes with WoW. This would imply that SE is creating the game that is aiming occupy the same space in the MMORPG genre as WoW does, and that would be lunacy and it would also be really disappointing for the fans of FFXI.

I absolutely think FFXIV will have a lot of subscribers. But absolutely not to the point of WoW. Which, like I said in my original post, is probably a good thing. If that makes me pessimistic, then alright, hehe.

And I would agree that the story is *one* thing that made FFXI a fairly unique experience in the MMORPG. But in *no way* would I say it carries the game. The stretches that can go on between story content in the game are simply too big. I think a lot of people didn't even clearly remember just what had happened in the last "story snippet" that took place, just because it can take such a long time between them (whether it be due to needing to level up, finding a party, waiting for linkshell arrangments etc). It destroys the momemntum of the storytelling pace.

If you were to make a story carry the game entirerely, then... well. What am I even playing a game for? It is an interactive medium after all, that is its strength (though I'll say that I definetely find this to be a flaw in most japanese RPGs so many people here would probably disagree with me). If I'm looking for a good story, I'll read a book, which is a medium that is pretty much devoted to the story (artistically speaking). A game should, in my humble opinion, be devoted to gameplay first and foremost. Some of my most favourite RPGs have had very thin stories but good gameplay. ****, when I played pen and paper and/or tabletop wargames (which would have to be considered the "root" of roleplaying games, Final Fantasy took a lot of stuff from there as well), it's not like we were playing for the story.

I also don't think story can be used as something unique for FFXIV as it was for FFXI. I definetely think the trend in gaming is to provide a more storycentric experience overall (note, that doesn't mean the story is actually good), and I believe this will carry over into MMORPG territory as well.
****, Bioware is already hyping the **** out of how the Knights of the Old Republic MMO will be epic and storyfocused etc etc.

Quote:
Did you play by yourself a lot?
No malice intended, just a question.


I definetely played a lot yes. But on the other hand, I did spend my time fishing/crafting/digging etc when most people I knew in game were very involved in the endgame stuff, which I never particularly got into. But yeah, let's say I don't plan on playing as much when FFXIV gets released, haha.


Edited, Aug 17th 2009 12:42pm by LeinadiOdin
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#24 Aug 17 2009 at 2:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I was responding to the quote in the original post, how do you make a mmo that competes with WoW. This would imply that SE is creating the game that is aiming occupy the same space in the MMORPG genre as WoW does


Quote:
Maybe SE answer to these questions is, you don't.


Actually, I said the opposite.

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 7:02am by LeadSalad
#25 Aug 17 2009 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And I would agree that the story is *one* thing that made FFXI a fairly unique experience in the MMORPG. But in *no way* would I say it carries the game. The stretches that can go on between story content in the game are simply too big. I think a lot of people didn't even clearly remember just what had happened in the last "story snippet" that took place, just because it can take such a long time between them (whether it be due to needing to level up, finding a party, waiting for linkshell arrangments etc). It destroys the momemntum of the storytelling pace.


For me, the story carried the game, and if it weren't for it taking so long between story content, I probably would still be playing. I think the answer to that is more development emphasis on the story, rather than features that players seldom use (pankration, chocobo racing/breeding... how is that moblin maze thing catching on?) Granted, FFXIs problem was not with ideas so much as implementation, but story missions were always a safe bet on content.

Actually, I think it would have been better if they had just staggered the content better, even if they didn't release more. If there had been a new part of the story released every couple of weeks rather than every few months, I would have been more tempted to keep playing.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#26 Aug 17 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I said the opposite.


Right, misread the post. Still, saying that it's up to SE (of course it is in the end) is not likely to stop discussions on a forum. :) And SE themselves have admitted to listening to their fanbase a lot (and implementing features in FFXI because of it). I'd agree that the fanbase is looking through the "veil of FFXI" towards the development of FFXIV, which may or may not be the right decision in the end. But a bit of discussion never hurt anyone.

Quote:
For me, the story carried the game, and if it weren't for it taking so long between story content, I probably would still be playing. I think the answer to that is more development emphasis on the story, rather than features that players seldom use (pankration, chocobo racing/breeding... how is that moblin maze thing catching on?) Granted, FFXIs problem was not with ideas so much as implementation, but story missions were always a safe bet on content.

Actually, I think it would have been better if they had just staggered the content better, even if they didn't release more. If there had been a new part of the story released every couple of weeks rather than every few months, I would have been more tempted to keep playing.


I don't think you would be playing still because more than likely you'd be finished with the stories long ago, hehe. :p Half joking.

I would disagree on emphasis on story though. To me, one of the draws of a MMORPG is the variation and the "texture" of the world. And since it is interactive, I think this texturing is best done through having content beside the story stuff (which is the main progression path through the game so to speak). Nor do I think SE would've had the stamina to keep coming up with stories that are interesting to play through, and that are varied enough from each other.

I'd agree though that SEs implementation of these side activities weren't exactly the best though. And another problem is that chocobo breeding and all that was introduced so late in the game. People become more and more jaded over time when playing a MMORPG, this goes for FFXI as well. I mean, I think most people so many years into the game are there for 1) people they have gotten to know and 2) acquiring phat loot. It's a crude generalization, but I believe it rings more and more true the longer the game goes on. And I mean, I'm sure people enjoyed the story along the way, don't get me wrong, but I think what drives most players at that point (several years into the game) is something more of a completionist attitude. That was the point where I quit personally, as I discovered it had "gotten" to me as well.

If something like the chocobo breeding had been there from the start of the game, then a lot more people would've done it. And SE would've been able to steer up the rewards in a better way. I'd agree that introducing stuff like that so late in the game isn't really a good idea though. But hey, some people enjoyed it I'm sure.
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#27 Aug 17 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I don't mean -just- the story, but the progression of the story, i.e., the fights and other tasks as well.

For example, one of the things that I liked about assaults were the rank up quests between them. Sure, the assaults were fun, but alone they wouldn't have been enough to keep me playing through them.

So the story really needs to compliment new gameplay content, for me. I'm always up for a good story, but frankly even the best gameplay can grow mundane rather quickly. To put it into perspective, even the greatest single player games that deliver both in gameplay and story tend to not get more than 500 hours of gameplay. For an MMO, you're shooting for much more than 500 hours... you want more like 500 days from your players.

Now, the thing about gameplay is that unless it is either initially very elaborate (which scares away new users) or you continue to drastically update it (which takes a lot of work), then you're just spinning what you've already got, which means that players will quickly master the content and grow bored. This happened for me quickly in XI and it was a personal challenge for me to keep things interesting. With a story, you have a chance to provide a completely new experience every time. My point is that new story is much easier to implement than new gameplay and people are less likely to get bored with it. The problem with story is that it's a one-time deal, where gameplay is an ongoing investment.

So there definitely has to be a balance, but personally I would have rather had a story-heavy game. I would have rather become engrossed by the original areas and their significance than given new areas that were just pretty to look at for a while.
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#28 Aug 17 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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#29 Aug 17 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Good
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Sure, there should be other things besides story. I have games saves for many ff games each with over 200 hours logged. This was from trying to max all the characters levels, do all the side quests, and have at least one of every item in my inventory. The games could be beaten much sooner than that and your characters progressed pretty much along with the story (except fft). Ffxiv could be the same way, having a long indepth story for you to do and by the end of it you've got a job at the level cap.
#30 Aug 17 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Well, the reason why this game is an MMO is because it was originally SE's vision to make the best final fantasy game ever made. They decided that in order to make the best final fantasy game, they would have to make it an mmo. Perhaps that is why it seems like it is in your perspective.

Personally, i have a strong feeling this is going to be a very traditional FF game, but be an mmo as well. Everything that ties to the final fantasy series(chocobos, gil, crystals, tonberries, cid, etc.) will be in this game, just based on that sense.


they had the same goal with ff11. nothing new here.

i think ff14 will be much more like ff11 than like offline ff games.

what do you base your "strong feeling" on?
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#31 Aug 17 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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WoW isn't really a regular game (just like the Sims isn't a regular game to compare other PC games with), it's a phenomenon . While it's all fine and dandy to take ideas and lessons from the game and incorporate into your own, trying to push it off the "throne" is lunacy.


::blinks::
I think perhaps I could have made this line more clear:

Quote:

They'd be stupid to compete with WoW, but they'd be stupid not to compete with Blizzard.


Blizzard is the company that produced WoW.
Blizzard actually has a long history of massively-multiplayer games in it's repertoire, and even a new MMO in the works, it's just that WoW is the most famous product they offer. Some people may use them synonymously, but really, we're talking about two different things: A Business and a Product of that Business.

But SE and Blizzard competing is not the same thing as FFXIV and WoW competing. For instance, SE and Blizzard compete with eachother for the quality of Customer Service, for Server Maintenance and Stability, for the ability to remain current with the trends in the industry in terms of both initial design and expansion packs. This spans across all the MMOs they have had, do have, and will ever have; not FFXIV and WoW specifically (although it does affect them).

I don't mean to say "FFXIV should be a WoW clone to compete with WoW", but "The Corporation Square-Enix should feel compelled to provide service that competes and exceeds the current top service provider Blizzard".


Edited, Aug 17th 2009 7:21pm by Zemzelette
#32 Aug 17 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, most certainly there are elements that have yet to be revealed as we all know. Gamescom is happening in 48 hours or less... We can only imagine what information will be shared by SE regarding FFXIII and FFXIV.

If you guys have any questions that you would like to see answered, if SE is willing to give up the goods that is, visit and join up on the site in my signature. There is a special thread started under News & Announcements. The administrator, Zyuu, is arriving at the Gamescom location tomorrow. He was going to see about live feed and stuff - not sure if that's going to happen but he will get answers first hand if they are available as well as providing the latest information SE is willing to provide.

I would agree that using WoW as a litmus test gets a bit tiresome. As my signature on the Aion boards use to read: "Quantity =/= Quality".

Edited, Aug 17th 2009 6:35pm by Apricoth
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#33 Aug 17 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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This game is the dream of the dolphin.
#34 Aug 17 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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What is this game really?

carrot on a stick + hole in pocket
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#35 Aug 17 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I definetely played a lot yes. But on the other hand, I did spend my time fishing/crafting/digging etc when most people I knew in game were very involved in the endgame stuff, which I never particularly got into. But yeah, let's say I don't plan on playing as much when FFXIV gets released, haha.


Yeah I spent more time fishing and doing solo stuff too.
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#36 Aug 17 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
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Meh, FFXI was the first Final Fantasy game I really enjoyed, mostly for the community. The storyline was crap, same as it was in all the FF games I've played IMO. Personally, I don't play games for storyline, I play for the game mechanics and being able to develop my character. If I want storyline, I'll go read a book.
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#37 Aug 22 2009 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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If I want storyline, I'll go read a book.


books are nice.
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#38 Aug 23 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
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What is this game really?

I'm hoping for the following;

* Hours of endless enjoyment for the majority of the players.
* A goldmine for game developers.
* A bane for RMT as they cry when they can't seem to get a foot in the door.

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#39 Aug 24 2009 at 1:07 AM Rating: Decent
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In my opinion a game is something that is interactive and fun. A few people would claim it needs to have a challenge, but I digress.

A MMO on the other hand is something about working together. This is different from a game in that in order to work together, you have to be able to help each other. A few people would also claim MMO is about ganking others and PvP is a must, but I again digress.

So a good MMO would consist of interactive fun with friends where you feel that you can help each other move forward.



And that explains why FFXI is terrible. The interaction is low (auto-attack, like 3 JA per job IF LUCKY, horrible recast durations on said JA etc), and the teamwork is not functioning because there are multiple classes who simply do not help the situation. Brining a BST to sky doesn't add much help at all, compared to say a BLU.



So hopefully FFXIV will actually focus on these things. Every class being useful and a lot of short recast actions to perform. Then all that would be left is to make it fun. (And for the really demanding, add challenge and PvP)
#40 Aug 24 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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This game is 2 things.

1. This is a sequel to FFXI with updated graphics that SE hope will help them retain their user base of FFXI players.

2. This is a new MMO that moves away from the D&D roots of the majority of MMOs. The D&D roots I refer to are Job/Class systems and Equipment with Job/Class Restraints. It makes sense that different weapons would be wielded in different ways and you would therefore develops different techniques for each weapon. Your weapon defines your techniques, no longer does the job you chose determine the weapons you use.
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#41 Aug 24 2009 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney, Defender of Justice wrote:
In all honesty, before MMO's existed, who all knew about Warcraft games? Sure they were fairly popular, but they didn't light a match to the Final Fantasy series. Everyone knew about, everyone talked about, everyone worshiped Final Fantasy, especially after Final Fantasy VII hit. Warcraft games were just another "medicore" series in the eyes of gamers. They were okay games, and they had fans, but again they didn't compare to the following the Final Fantasy name had.

This all changed when MMORPG's came onto the scene. FFXI simply was too time consuming and had too many drawbacks, while WoW had all the elements most people were looking for. Even though FFXI had a much more rich and detailed feeling world, a better environment, and arguably much better graphics.

Square Enix still has the "Final Fantasy" franchise and that name on their side. I think they could make an Epic Monster if they did it right. It would take awhile, and they will have to get past the Bias and Paid Off western media, but I think it could be done. I could honestly see FFXIV some day having as many if not many more subscribers than WoW. I think they deserve it, after all the great RPG games they delivered to us throughout the years. I want to see them in they spot the deserve, which is king of MMORPG's.

Now, I'm sure this title wouldn't come immediately, and they will have to work their way up, and prove to people it's not a carbon copy of either WoW or FFXI, but something completely different. There are indeed things they should take over from FFXI, and things they could learn from WoW, but it needs to be it's own unique game in more ways than those.

Could Square Enix pull it off? I think so, I don't think it's stupid to think they could either. I'm not saying they will, and I know it's a long stretch, but I see it as the flagship MMORPG -especially for gamers being 18+ years old- some day. So don't put it past them.

But if it doesn't end up as big as WoW? That's fine to, I just hope it gets the publicity it deserves, the attention it deserves, the respect it deserves, and a decent community. If they have a few million very strong and dedicated players, I would call it a mission success.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 9:55pm by EndlessJourney


It all comes down to Advertisement! Blizzard has done a good job in getting thier game out to the public via advertisement/endorsements etc. I mean come on, the company made headway when they got celebrity endorsement. If SE would step out of the box and get some good advertisment and endorsements, they would surely blow Blizzard away.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 2:57pm by jayfly
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#42 Aug 25 2009 at 12:43 AM Rating: Default
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Sloannn wrote:
I don't see why every MMO has to compete against WoW. As long as we enjoy the game, (which we obviously do because we play it over WoW and other MMO's) why attract the attention of all those immature 10 year olds that play WoW. One thing I grew to love about FFXI was that, while there was the occasional idiot, the community was very mature and willing to cooperate. I was perfectly fine with my server size, and infact I think adding a few thousand more during those peak years would have caused major problems. Wanting to play the most popular MMO is like joining the football team because it's cool, when in reality you love baseball. I'd be perfectly fine if the population of FFXIV was the same as XI, obviously I wish others could experience how good it is, but it doesn't work like that nowadays, people are far too stubborn.

Let me garuntee one thing, this game will be awesome. SE is putting waaaayyy to much time into this to produce a total flop. They aren't just taking shots in the dark with the new systems, they have definitely tested them and made sure they still work in an MMO game. Many will disagree but I don't think SE has ever screwed up an original game. FFXII has those people that love to make fun of it because it's different but it is by no means a bad game. They realized that MMO's are the future of gaming and they tried to make FFXII like that. Some will complain about the lack of turnbased fighting, and the openness of the world, but when you match that up with other games that are similar, XII takes a big sh*t on them. They tried a more action oriented game with Kingdom Hearts, and now that game has it's own cult following. They are geniuses when it comes to anything RPG.

Stupid biased NA websites and magazines may bash the creativity and innovativeness that SE is bringing with this new game, but it will be a great RPG if you log on for the first time with an open mind, that's a promise.



Trusting SE is a big mistake. They will pull the plug on this 7 years down the line when it's two-third's done just like they are with XI. And SE has made their share of crap games.
#43 Aug 25 2009 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
jayfly wrote:
EndlessJourney, Defender of Justice wrote:
In all honesty, before MMO's existed, who all knew about Warcraft games? Sure they were fairly popular, but they didn't light a match to the Final Fantasy series. Everyone knew about, everyone talked about, everyone worshiped Final Fantasy, especially after Final Fantasy VII hit. Warcraft games were just another "medicore" series in the eyes of gamers. They were okay games, and they had fans, but again they didn't compare to the following the Final Fantasy name had.

This all changed when MMORPG's came onto the scene. FFXI simply was too time consuming and had too many drawbacks, while WoW had all the elements most people were looking for. Even though FFXI had a much more rich and detailed feeling world, a better environment, and arguably much better graphics.

Square Enix still has the "Final Fantasy" franchise and that name on their side. I think they could make an Epic Monster if they did it right. It would take awhile, and they will have to get past the Bias and Paid Off western media, but I think it could be done. I could honestly see FFXIV some day having as many if not many more subscribers than WoW. I think they deserve it, after all the great RPG games they delivered to us throughout the years. I want to see them in they spot the deserve, which is king of MMORPG's.

Now, I'm sure this title wouldn't come immediately, and they will have to work their way up, and prove to people it's not a carbon copy of either WoW or FFXI, but something completely different. There are indeed things they should take over from FFXI, and things they could learn from WoW, but it needs to be it's own unique game in more ways than those.

Could Square Enix pull it off? I think so, I don't think it's stupid to think they could either. I'm not saying they will, and I know it's a long stretch, but I see it as the flagship MMORPG -especially for gamers being 18+ years old- some day. So don't put it past them.

But if it doesn't end up as big as WoW? That's fine to, I just hope it gets the publicity it deserves, the attention it deserves, the respect it deserves, and a decent community. If they have a few million very strong and dedicated players, I would call it a mission success.

Edited, Aug 16th 2009 9:55pm by EndlessJourney


It all comes down to Advertisement! Blizzard has done a good job in getting thier game out to the public via advertisement/endorsements etc. I mean come on, the company made headway when they got celebrity endorsement. If SE would step out of the box and get some good advertisment and endorsements, they would surely blow Blizzard away.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 2:57pm by jayfly


You're right that they have been pretty successful in their advertisement, but the game was successful way before that. They're successful because they made a MMO that didn't appeal to only the MMO people; but to basically anyone who would allow themselves a venture into fantasy. that's something that other MMOs didn't yet think of doing, and that's why they captured the market that they basically redefined.
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#44 Aug 25 2009 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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You're right that they have been pretty successful in their advertisement, but the game was successful way before that. They're successful because they made a MMO that didn't appeal to only the MMO people; but to basically anyone who would allow themselves a venture into fantasy. that's something that other MMOs didn't yet think of doing, and that's why they captured the market that they basically redefined.


I'm going to have to disagree with that part, since the advertising started before the game even came out. <.<;
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#45 Aug 25 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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WoW is a success because of tons of viral advertising and the fact that it caters heavily to casual gamers.
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#46 Aug 25 2009 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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The warcraft series were pretty popular and eventhough it was a strategy game to fight with armies against each other. A lot of people made levels/campaigns in RPG style though, using only the "Heroes" (Army leaders basically) and because that was so popular it was only natural to make a MMORPG with it.
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#47 Aug 25 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Trusting SE is a big mistake. They will pull the plug on this 7 years down the line when it's two-third's done just like they are with XI. And SE has made their share of crap games.


It is not at all a big mistake. I said they have never made a crap original game. I mean games like FFX, not FFX-2. Or Kingdom Hearts, or any of those titles. None of these games are crap, some of them are better than others, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean they suck. That's like calling RHCP a bad band, if millions of people worship them they clearly aren't bad. Ill keep trusting SE, thanks for the heads up though.

And your comment on FFXI is just plain wrong. Sorry they aren't going to whip up another massive expansion for its dwindling population, but they have stated MULTIPLE times they will continue to support it so long as people play. They have been heavily supporting it for 8 years now, i don't know what you're whining about. They're a company looking to make a profit, they see their old MMO dying and their profit looking slimmer, so they make a new game, which would satisfy 90% of the people who played FFXI and didn't waste their life on it.

I think someone's bitter.
#48 Aug 25 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've said this elsewhere, but they have indeed made a slew of crap/mediocre games; however, they have essentially invented the genre. Because they've put out some of the widely-recognized "best" games, they raised the bar not only for their competitors, but for themselves as well.

So it's not entirely an insult to say that they make a lot of poor games. They can't reinvent the wheel every time. But to think that just because they put the title Final Fantasy on it, it will actually live up to some of their other legacy games (or for that matter, competing MMOs in a market they are still new to), is a bit naive.
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#49 Aug 25 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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It all comes down to Advertisement! Blizzard has done a good job in getting thier game out to the public via advertisement/endorsements etc. I mean come on, the company made headway when they got celebrity endorsement. If SE would step out of the box and get some good advertisment and endorsements, they would surely blow Blizzard away.


Personally, i dont think it is advertisement. Basically, if the game appeals to you, you will play it. Not because some flashy advertisement.

What i think contributes to their success in this respect is the fact that they communicate and release information on a scale that no other mmo i have seen can match or even be in the same catagory as.

Everytime myself and my friends have gone back to wow, it was not because of the ad on w/e website. It was because we read some interview about the changes they are making and the direction they plan to move to.

Likewise, i really doubt that having a celebrity pretend to play ffxiv will do anything for its playerbase. Anyone above... what 17? does not give a crap if a celebrity plays a game. Do you really want the people who are easily swayed by marketing campaigns to go to ffxiv? I sure don't.

I'd want the people who read interviews and articles and decide that the game is a good fit for them. Not the people who hop from fotm to fotm, ruining the experience for each as they go.



Edited, Aug 25th 2009 1:35pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#50 Aug 25 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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I still remember the day that I saw the first FFXI commercial on TV. I had no clue that they were releasing an MMO prior to this but was always aware of FF games and was hooked (not completely since I didn't play every one) after VII.

In the beginning it was a relaxed atmosphere and all I had was the clothes on my back and my moogle in my back pocket. There were various LS recruitment shouts going on and people shouting in the cities for help with the lower missions 1-3, 2-3, etc. It was more like a chat room with the added benefit of having a mobile and command driven avatar. There were no early expectations of me having this piece of gear or this spec. So while the economy sucked (and I had no idea how bad at the time), it was much easier getting started in the right direction at this point because all I had to do was answer one of the shouts or chat with one of my new online friends. Even in my early party days in the dunes, we would chat about what we have seen so far and weren't concerned with how fast we were progressing. It's primarily because of this that I never saw it as a grind.

Basically, from the start, I didn't feel like a small fish in a big pond who had to sky rocket to the top in order to join in on the fun. I was just another character who was finding his own way in the world and meeting some nice people along the way. The maturity of the player base had a lot to do with that for sure. I knew this (XI) was "MY" kind of game. RPGs alone were good enough to immerse me into the storyline and keep me interested. Missions showed me that I had a bigger purpose in this world and wasn't just there to help some farmer capture ten of his turkeys that ran away. I had a real adventure on my hands and actual people to share each step of the way with. I applaud SE for the wonderful stories and cutscenes that they built in XI and I have no doubt that I will remember them for years to come.

To me, this game (I'm talking about FFXIV now) is about having fun, meeting people, and sharing experiences with them. If I want to pursue the life of a hardcore gamer who is focused on grinding to the highest level, raiding and pursuing top notch gear so people will envy me, I know several places I can already find that. XIV will bring me back to the fun I used to have when I first started playing XI.

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#51 Aug 28 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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From a game design perspective the idea of advancing weapons or skills irrespective of "job class" is nothing new. It may be new for MMOs I simply do not know but Dungeons and Dragons is not, was not the end all and be all of rpgs, even though it was fantastically succesful. The weapon/skill system that has been advertised for ffxiv is pretty much the same as for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay which came out 15-20ish years ago. For what its worth, that system had very good "gameplay" and has always had a small but dedicated following, even long after the parent company stopped supporting it. In fact there were many game systems for roleplayers and not a few of them are still in print under license agreements.

The whole idea of playing a mmorpg for the "story" is absurd. As an earlier poster said, if you want a good story read a book. FF stories are somewhat entertaining but they are full of cliche, predictable, 2 dimensional and worst of all cute. They are exactly what the medium calls for, very light entertainment.

I pity the poor soul that thinks the storyline in FF is anything to compliment. Writing a good story would be a waste of time anyway because of the way SE parses out their meager offerings.


What will ffiv be? ->mithra, galka, human, taru, elven, moogles, chocobo, crystals, crystals and more crystals, fishing, cooking, smithing etc., Fields of Valor, Assault, cute stories, aesthetically pleasing graphics, ****** customer service, Playstation 3 limitations, dufus se representatives giving vague and otherwise evasive answers, less demanding for players than FFxi, less RMT than ffxi, easier to start and easier to quit than ffxi.

Will it be the FIRST successfull mmorpg sequel? Personally I think SE hit their developmental peak with CoP as far as interesting game play goes and have been on a downhill slide ever since they dumbed down those missions, eliminated most danger from exp areas and made leveling an inconsequential task that does not require any group skills at all.

Before the big dumb down, ffxi wasnt hard but you at least had to have people that knew how to do their jobs for killing the higher level exp mobs. FFIV will be a watered down version of ffxi lite.

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