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#1 Aug 21 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
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So... I just read one of the interviews and was crushed to see that once again PvP will once again be the redheaded stepchild. I'm massively disappointed.
#2 Aug 21 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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The Devs have always said they're not interested in making the game PvP oriented.
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#3 Aug 21 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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PvP is always fun though there will always be a audience that appeals to PvP in a mmorpg, I think SE should throw that audience a bone.
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#4 Aug 21 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I think battlegrounds (yes, another WoW comparison.. sorry) would be a fun addition, but sadly they would need to revamp the game.

As someone who was never really that into PvP before, I have to admit that PvP with an ultimate purpose like capture the flag can be very fun. Random PvP when I am trying to accomplish something else is just a pain in my ***. Maybe they will introduce something like this later on down the line.

The general consensus regarding FFXI is that it is still one of, if not the best PvE MMO's to date. SE is doing it right by staying in this tradition of keeping their focus PvE and making PvP available only through something like Brenner or Ballista later on, IMO.
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#5 Aug 21 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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PvP is always fun though there will always be a audience that appeals to PvP in a mmorpg, I think SE should throw that audience a bone.


The problem with PvP is that, when you "throw the PvP crowd a bone", unless implemented very, very carefully, is like slapping the EvP crowd in the face.

Personally, I am a very non-confrontational person, and PvP just doesn't appeal to me. So by the same token, if SE added a poor PvP system in which anyone can run up and cut your head off, they would lose my subscription right out the door (just the same as they would lose a PvPer's subscription for not having it).

This is an extreme example of course, but I'm trying to make a point with contrast. Anything more intense than the sporting events they've already promised (implied) would be alot of work for something that SE considers unimportant for the feel of their game.

I feel like SE is just trying to make the best game they can with the least amount of work in areas they don't care about. They could make a PvP system that worked and was fun for everyone, or they could spend that time working the kinks out of their PvE combat system. They've just chosen the latter in lue of the former.

Edited, Aug 21st 2009 6:58pm by Hulan

Edited, Aug 21st 2009 7:00pm by Hulan
#6 Aug 21 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly like a game system where they're not kowtowing to the PvP crowd.
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#7 Aug 21 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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The only way PvP would interest me is if it actually matters, like in EVE. Only, they don't have a very good bounty hunting system in EVE which I find extremely appealing.

If it doesn't matter I'd rather there be no PvP at all (or at most a very very limited pvp).

Edited, Aug 21st 2009 4:58pm by Yogtheterrible
#8 Aug 21 2009 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Only PVP that would interest me is what many people thought the Colosseum was going to be. An arena for PVP.
#9 Aug 21 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Default
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Well obviously PvP the way many of you are talking about doesn't fit in the context of the game. The Player nations are not at war so why would we fight every time we encounter each other. But don't you ever want to go head to head against your peers and prove your prowess? Some kind of arena should be included as well as a "sports type game." I would be completely happy with this if it was carefully and well implemented. Basicly the exact opposite of ballista. Ballista had the feel of something that was quickly and sloppily thrown together just so they could say that had pvp. The way they talked about pvp in the interview made me feel like it was going to be handled exactly the same way this time around
#10 Aug 22 2009 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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I for one am massively pleased. I hope they add some nice player vs player competitions like a card game or some sort of board game, but avatar on avatar nono. Having to attain PvP balance inevitably effects PvE balance too.
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#11Riori, Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 5:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) hmm. I didn't realized that so much of the community felt that way. No wonder that pathetic excuse for pvp was all they did for FFXI. Doesn't anyone else feel that competitive drive? That urge to be the greatest fighter Eorzea has ever seen? Didn't you ever have that annoying party member in FFXI who thought he was so great and you just wished that you could challenge him to some kind of duel and put him in his place?
#12 Aug 22 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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There's other ways to create competitive content than just PvP, fyi.
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#13 Aug 22 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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If your not going to focus on PvP in a game, it is best to make sure it is obvious that is not so. Otherwise they make a ton of noise and cause a ruckus that never ends. I'm someone who enjoys PvP, but Im not saddended at all by this new, rather Im glad they are direct about it. Too many games try to make it look like they are PvP when they arent and it just ends up causing problems.

Also good to see another mmo that is focusing on a direct player-base rather than trying to blanket appeal to everyone, which ends up making things a mess in the end. All the news Ive been hearing about XIV is really giving me a good feeling.
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#14 Aug 22 2009 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
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Also good to see another mmo that is focusing on a direct player-base rather than trying to blanket appeal to everyone, which ends up making things a mess in the end. All the news Ive been hearing about XIV is really giving me a good feeling.


I'm glad, too, that SE seems to focus on what it does best and doesn't fall to that trap, at least not completely- we'll see where their "FFXIV will appeal to both casual and hardcore players" approach will take them- my bet is that one side is going to be upset at some point =p.
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#15 Aug 22 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yay no PvP!
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#16 Aug 22 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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It seems that SE doesn't quite grasp how PvP can be implemented without creating a lot of player tension. I'm not a fan of rampant PvP myself, but having something like a dueling option, or a coliseum? Those just sound like crowd-pleasers that don't have enough drawbacks to warrant exclusion.
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#17 Aug 22 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Nothing good will come out of luring PvP'ers to a game that's not designed to be a PvP game in the first place, I'd say.

FFXI had a dueling option, although it wasn't as accessible as just clicking on your friend and choosing 'duel' from the list. I'd say that we'll get it at some point, some way or the other.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 4:25pm by Hyanmen
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#18 Aug 22 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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When did FFXI get a dueling option? Surely you don't mean in Ballista or Brenner? Even the dioramas that you can reserve privately don't really constitute a dueling option in my book.
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#19 Aug 22 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I had some great duels with my friends in Diorama, but it wasn't really created with that feature in mind, yeah.

They could expand it in XIV for it to become a real dueling feature though. Maybe.
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#20 Aug 22 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Default
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I hope they'll implement pvp. Afterall thus far their main point has been they'll have content for all types of play styles...why not have a pvp option? Also I notice alot of people will say "I would quit if someone could run up and chop off my head" nonsense. Most PvP systems are nothing like this. And even in WoW you can't do this unless you go to a specific server for the purpose of it. In a normal server you have a flag, and you decide wheather or not you want to be part of the PVP experience. Personally I hope they implement some fun PVP options later on because I want to get the most out of my game. WoW which is always referenced when it comes to PvP also has a very indepth raid system (PvE). So both can be in the game and sure they have their problems pleasing both crowds but obviously they've done well enough to keep 11 million players.
#21 Aug 22 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm really disappointed that they are not including at least some form of PVP. I was completely content with ballista since it was more fun fighting actual people where you're not sure what to expect rather than fighting monsters that do the same thing, countless times with no particular challenge.

I hope they reconsider and add some sort of ballista type PVP or any type of PVP in the future. This might break it for me unless they can really impress me with what they have in the game that make it stand out from other MMOs.
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#22 Aug 22 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm really disappointed that they are not including at least some form of PVP. I was completely content with ballista since it was more fun fighting actual people where you're not sure what to expect rather than fighting monsters that do the same thing, countless times with no particular challenge.

I hope they reconsider and add some sort of ballista type PVP or any type of PVP in the future. This might break it for me unless they can really impress me with what they have in the game that make it stand out from other MMOs.


Who has said that they aren't?
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#23 Aug 22 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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It should not be surprising to any one that the FF MMO community does not mind not having PVP :)

We loved FFXI just the way it was and we just want to have a slight feel of that old game on this one as well together with the new twists and adventures this one has to offer.

A deep story based/PVE heavy with tons of things to do type of game can be a lot more competitive and confrontational then you may think :P

I still remember the names of the Paladins I had a rivalry in my old Server of Gilgamesh.
#24 Aug 22 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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@ Riori

Yes, I do have the urge to put people in thier place sometimes, but I do it by doing my job/class well. This often speaks for itself, and other people can quickly pick-out the deficiencies of the upstart.

As for proving myself, again I usually do this by performing my job well. This will especially show up for players in endgame. Other options are perfoming some feat that other players are not skilled enough or are to afraid to do. Such as soloing NM that you have no business soloing, and yet you still kick its ***.

As fo real PvP, I could get behind the idea of an arena. It would just need to be there for dueling. Something nice and simple for those that like it. Just as long as it is something that is not a major portion of the game. As some one stated before, I'd rather they just make more new PvE content than focus on PvP too much.
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#25 Aug 22 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I'm really disappointed that they are not including at least some form of PVP. I was completely content with ballista since it was more fun fighting actual people where you're not sure what to expect rather than fighting monsters that do the same thing, countless times with no particular challenge.

I hope they reconsider and add some sort of ballista type PVP or any type of PVP in the future. This might break it for me unless they can really impress me with what they have in the game that make it stand out from other MMOs.


Who has said that they aren't?


It is in the 4Gamer's interview under the "Races and Faces" section, last paragraph in that section.
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#26 Aug 22 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It is in the 4Gamer's interview under the "Races and Faces" section, last paragraph in that section.


"PvP will be like in FFXI"

So, look forward to seeing a system like Ballista, just not right at the release of the game :D.

Quote:
We loved FFXI just the way it was and we just want to have a slight feel of that old game on this one as well together with the new twists and adventures this one has to offer.


For me it's more like "SE is good at making PvE content but they're not experienced enough to make satisfactory PvP content... so I'd rather have them focus on making what they know best" ;)


Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 5:07pm by Hyanmen
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#27 Aug 22 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Based on the interview it sounds like they may be open to some kind of PvP in the future.

Quote:
If PvP elements are ever added, they will be in the form of sports and games, like Final Fantasy XI.


I just hope that sports/games aren't like Ballista and Pokemon Snap Jr that they came out with in FFXI. A sport type of PvP can be fun if it's implemented well, but we'll see.
#28 Aug 22 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm fine with PVP taking a smaller role like in FFXI as long as it is more accessible. Ballista was always a pain to get involved in. If it was more frequent/same level/didn't move around it would be perfect.
#29 Aug 22 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I really had a lot of fun playing ballista as a newb; I made a lot of friends ^^

I just hope they improve upon the concept by adding more options/rewards so it doesn't become dead as soon as the newness wears off.

I'm glad its not a PVP oriented game to the scale of WoW -- I like the teamwork aspect. I'm not a fan of 'dueling' of any sort, I didn't even do 1v1s in Ballista except a few times (although, tbh, as a career blm, how would I ? Staff fight? Hope the melee forgot poison pot fight? :D )

Ballista was fun because it was a team game; and it was a contest. It's kind of like playing a sport, really, and not so much 'LOLZ I PWN YOU' type pvp.

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#30 Aug 22 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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It would have been more fun if it had been more Ballista Royale as the norm, where you can actually put together teams rather than just being thrown together with whoever shows up. There's not a great sense of group cohesiveness or teamwork in your random ballista match.
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#31 Aug 22 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It is in the 4Gamer's interview under the "Races and Faces" section, last paragraph in that section.


"PvP will be like in FFXI"

So, look forward to seeing a system like Ballista, just not right at the release of the game :D.


Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 5:07pm by Hyanmen




Quote:
If PvP elements are ever added, they will be in the form of sports and games, like Final Fantasy XI. It was decided very early on that PvP would not be added, and it does not appear the developers are going to waver from this.


That is the part that worries me. I guess I'm a bit of a pessimistic that thinks it won't be added at all but that's what it seems like from this quote.
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#32 Aug 22 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's another translation of the same interview:

Quote:
The base of FFXIV will be PvE. If they add PvP, it will probably be the sports competition-like style we see in FFXI. However, they are busy working on other things, so PvP will probably not be in the game at the start.


I think they just mean that PvP will come later, and PvE is the priority. I wouldn't worry about it, most other interviews have stated that there will be some kind of PvP at some point.

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#33 Aug 22 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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While I'm not really interested in PvP for XIV since I'm a rampant AFKer, I do think it's disappointing that they aren't going to at least have separate servers for PvP.
#34 Aug 23 2009 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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PvP would go the way of Ballista.
#35 Aug 23 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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For the first few years I played WoW, I was on a PvP server. Why? I loved the sudden adrenaline rush of running into another player of the other faction (sometimes you fight, sometimes you just eye eachother, sometimes they get the drop, sometimes you do, etc...)

But, I HATED ganking. I dealt with it, and never ******* about it, but I hated it oh-so-much. And I never did it, because it always just made me feel like an ***. The worst I ever did was hit someone that was being annoying a few times as a warning.

So, I finally switched to a Normal server, and had a lot more fun. Why? Because I LOVED battlegrounds (and Wintergrasp).

The "game" aspect made it fun. It was separate from my normal play time, and the deaths and killing was expected.

I never tried Ballista, but I bet I would've like it.

I'd love to see FFXIV BG/Ballista-type-PvP. I don't want to see world PvP. If they implement dueling, I want three things:

1. The option to EASILY disable all future duel requests from that player (and, hopefully, account).
2. The ability to set a wager.
3. Some kind of system that makes you both instance out, like a guildleve, into a field where you are both in separate locations and have to "find" each other.

That I could see as being very, very fun.
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#36 Aug 25 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I always considered the camping aspect of FFXI to be a version of "pvp." It was certainly more competetive and fun than running around killing people.
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#37 Aug 25 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I'm a bit leery of PvP beyond my person dislike of conflict. I know that FFXIV will be a primarily PvE game, so my following fear is almost certainly pointless in context of FFXIV.

Speaking in general though, depending on how much credence is given to PvP in a game, it can severely hamper all aspects of balance in the game. Any time the developers attempt to add any content, they must first pass it through PvP to make sure it does not damage PvP balance. On the other hand, any content added to the game for PvP must be passed through a deluge of tests to ensure it does not cause problems in any of the PvE content.

This is apparently quite a problem for WoW and Blizzard (and likely many other MMOs with large scale PvP but less publicity), as content that would have been added has been cut for fear of making one class or another too powerful in PvP.

PvP and PvE are very different beasts. It's only natural to try to put them into an MMO game together, but stepping back for a moment, it's sort of like mixing turn based strategy with first person shooter in a game. PvE is repetitive, strategic, and can benefit from special monster specific tricks (Firaga IV anyone?). While PvP is more intense, unique every time, and more competitive. It shouldn't come as a surprise that mechanics that were designed to be only decent in one system may, in the context of the other, be game-breaking.

This brings on the inevitable flame wars on offical forums, gaining the ire of everyone from admins, GMs, developers, to players.

In conclusion to this pointless exposition, I'm always a little leery of PvP because it's dangerous to an inexperienced or even experienced developer. Sort of like playing with matches in a fireworks factory. I certainly would be afraid to try....

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 1:47am by Hulan

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 1:48am by Hulan
#38 Aug 25 2009 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
Speaking in general though, depending on how much credence is given to PvP in a game, it can severely hamper all aspects of balance in the game. Any time the developers attempt to add any content, they must first pass it through PvP to make sure it does not damage PvP balance. On the other hand, any content added to the game for PvP must be passed through a deluge of tests to ensure it does not cause problems in any of the PvE content.

This is apparently quite a problem for WoW and Blizzard (and likely many other MMOs with large scale PvP but less publicity), as content that would have been added has been cut for fear of making one class or another too powerful in PvP.


Bingo! I am a huge WoW pvper, but it totally unbalances the game. For example, death knights in WoW have an ability called scourge strike which ignores the targets armory/defense, making it incredibly strong in PVP. However, it's not overly powerful in pve. Blizzard decided to nerf its damage by about 10%, which hurt ALOT, considering it is "THE" move for dks. Its just not possible to balance a game around both pvp and pve.
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#39 Aug 25 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I always found Ballista enjoyable. And it had a a really cool feel to it like a sports game. More than PVP I'm hoping for some fun mini-games kinda like an in game tetramaster cause I mean who doesnt love tetramaster from FFIX. Greatest mini game of any RPG ever.
#40 Aug 26 2009 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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I know when I think Final Fantasy the first thought that comes to mind is pwning my own party.
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#41 Aug 26 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe for fun they could do a moggle event. where you change into beastman and whack at each other.
#42 Aug 26 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
idiggory wrote:
I'd love to see FFXIV BG/Ballista-type-PvP. I don't want to see world PvP. If they implement dueling, I want three things:

1. The option to EASILY disable all future duel requests from that player (and, hopefully, account).
2. The ability to set a wager.
3. Some kind of system that makes you both instance out, like a guildleve, into a field where you are both in separate locations and have to "find" each other.

That I could see as being very, very fun.


I agree, and let me say why so it doesn't sound like I'm just +1'ing.

1. I hate people that constantly challenge you to a duel. I had this happen to me once when I played WoW. This guy kept challenging me, and when I'd refuse, he'd do the chicken emote. I finally just put him on my ignore list and walked away. I suppose he thought he was cool because he was 20 levels higher than me.

2. As long as the wager isn't just in gil, yes. I wouldn't mind dueling for a piece of gear.

3. I thought of the guildleve idea as well, just hadn't gotten around to posting it yet. Smiley: smile
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#43 Aug 26 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe for fun they could do a moggle event. where you change into beastman and whack at each other.


Why not just let mobs cast confuse? That could be fun. :D
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#44 Aug 26 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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PVP as an afterthought is fine with me as long as it is accessible. Sometimes you just like to have a round of pvp instead of leveling or w/e.
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#45 Aug 26 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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PvP is always fun though there will always be a audience that appeals to PvP in a mmorpg, I think SE should throw that audience a bone.


The problem with PvP is that, when you "throw the PvP crowd a bone", unless implemented very, very carefully, is like slapping the EvP crowd in the face.[i]


LIES, I say..Lies and propaganda lol. Anyway, throwing the PvP crowd a bone is what I think is good business...long as it doesn't hinder the PvE players in anyway. And btw, PvE players made this game successful, not PvP players. So the lack of the latter won't stop momentum in the slightest of whats being accomplished here. PvP players didn't make FFXI what it is today, but im not saying not throw them a bone but its far from imperative.

I think arenas and the like are favorable, places where PvP can be excercised and played with. What pretty much you don't want to do, which is a no brainer, is have any sense of "World PvP".

This isn't WoW, and comparing it too is ludacris. I think IMHO, FFXI's difficulty whether quests, leveling, skilling, and farming makes Open End PvP highly undesirable. Whereas, it excels in WoW due large impart over how easily you can accomplish tasks, also relative time you can do it, and it being a game where you're quite capable of soloing till top level (with good time).

All in all, Im for adding something like maybe "Dueling System", Arenas, or what not that maybe people could even spectate or even bet on...even tournaments maybe even cool. Long as the PvE aspect of the game isn't hindered in anyway, no way you can lose...only gain from giving something to stimulate and entirely different fan base by being innovative and creative. Like I said, good business...I'd think anyway.
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The Real Surge of Sylph
#46 Aug 26 2009 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

LIES, I say..Lies and propaganda lol. Anyway, throwing the PvP crowd a bone is what I think is good business


Well, I'm not really saying that it can't be done, and done well, merely that if done in a sloppy half-hazard sort of way (such as anything SE is going to be able to throw together at this late stage in development before release) will lead to incredibly painful balance and technical problems that would leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouths. Please see my earlier post up above for a more concise explanation behind my believes in the area of PvP vs PvE balance.

I do agree that a well implemented arena may be the best of both worlds, as long as SE does not make too many concessions to make it so. (again, read above)

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 2:53pm by Hulan
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