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#52 Aug 27 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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You have to have sufficient risk to make the payoff rewarding.


Again, another theory that sounds all fine and good, but it's pseudopsychology at best.
Edit: Actually, it seems that you've misconstrued the nature of the principle of risk/reward balance. This refers to financial investments, not human psychology and enjoyment.

Risk is not even nearly the sole factor in determining the value of a reward. To someone with a gambling problem, maybe. To an average person, no. An average person prefers very little risk and for their reward to be based on their personal merit.

I'm sure if you'll stop to think about it, you can come up with an endless list of examples of situations where people faced little risk, but found very desirable payoffs based on hard work, luck, or talent. Graduations, job and family successes, etc.

People don't enjoy winning the lottery because of all the money they stand to lose over time if they never win.

Edited, Aug 27th 2009 4:25pm by Kachi
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#53 Aug 28 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I hated exp loss. Yeah it is there to make dying worth avoiding but death is inevitably going to happen, so it’s like getting the middle finger for playing and learning the game.

It’s not avoiding punishment that makes games challenging its overcoming greater and greater tasks, not dying is not a challenge, soloing fenrir, or taking on a hyper nm, that’s a challenge. The challenge comes from the difficulty of the task not the severity of the punishment. Look at First person shooters I don't ever remember playing a FPS and being sent back to the previous level because I died too many times. I just start at the checkpoint and try overcoming the obstacle again, and when I do overcome, it is rewarding because I was involved and invested in the task and my perseverance payed off while making me a better player by encouraging me to try new tactics and learning from mistakes.

What I’m trying to get at is maybe it’s not the punishment that should be made more sever to make a game more fun, but rather the difficulty of obtaining the reward and the reward itself should be gradually increased as your skill increases. If every battle in ffxi took 10-20 min and it was a tactical chess game were you invested time effort and thought so that you could get a reward of an extravagant exp gain worthy of your deed, not only would exp grinding be fun, but a punishment wouldn't be needed because not receiving the reward is deterrent enough to not die, it would challenge the player, and eliminate a need for any punishment, and encourage experimentation and exploration because I wouldn't be punished for trying something new just not rewarded.


#54 Aug 28 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Default
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It’s not avoiding punishment that makes games challenging its overcoming greater and greater tasks, not dying is not a challenge, soloing fenrir, or taking on a hyper nm, that’s a challenge. The challenge comes from the difficulty of the task not the severity of the punishment. Look at First person shooters I don't ever remember playing a FPS and being sent back to the previous level because I died too many times. I just start at the checkpoint and try overcoming the obstacle again, and when I do overcome, it is rewarding because I was involved and invested in the task and my perseverance payed off while making me a better player by encouraging me to try new tactics and learning from mistakes.


Wheres the risk of losing then? If you get a penalty when you die, you'll try to avoid death at all costs.. but if there's no such a thing, it doesn't matter if you die or not; you can just start at the checkpoint and try again. Boring.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 11:06pm by Hyanmen
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#55 Aug 28 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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It’s not avoiding punishment that makes games challenging its overcoming greater and greater tasks, not dying is not a challenge, soloing fenrir, or taking on a hyper nm, that’s a challenge. The challenge comes from the difficulty of the task not the severity of the punishment. Look at First person shooters I don't ever remember playing a FPS and being sent back to the previous level because I died too many times. I just start at the checkpoint and try overcoming the obstacle again, and when I do overcome, it is rewarding because I was involved and invested in the task and my perseverance payed off while making me a better player by encouraging me to try new tactics and learning from mistakes.



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Wheres the risk of losing then? If you get a penalty when you die, you'll try to avoid death at all costs.. but if there's no such a thing, it doesn't matter if you die or not; you can just start at the checkpoint and try again. Boring.



last time I checked failing to jump over a soda can under penalty of death does not make me feel more accomplished bye doing so. nerve wracking maybe, but its neither rewarding or fun.


the risk is the loss of time invested, if I spend 20 minutes in a gruling fight and lose I don't get my exp, I don't get to advance, and im out 20 minutes of play time, and I have to restart the task again. But I am encouraged to try again because I now have knowledge and experiance and am therfore better sutied to retry the current and future task.
#56 Aug 28 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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well maybe when they say there is no "exp" it just means there is no exp in the regular level perspective... you may have ... Weapon exp or something with their new job system ... i dunno
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#57 Aug 28 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Well put, Sir Henry Walton. Good show-- top drawer.

Seriously, in FFXI, not dying is indeed most of the "challenge." And that's one reason why FFXI is not a particularly good game.

Which is harder:
Killing 30 mobs that take 1 minute each?
Killing 1 mob that takes 30 minutes each?

Of course the latter is harder, and yet, there is absolutely no incentive to take on such challenging battles when trying to xp. You can get 5-10k by endgame for 30 minutes of killing weak mobs. A mob that takes a half an hour will probably net you under 100 xp. This was something that people learned to laugh off in time, but it was really a horrible mechanic that discouraged players from taking on real challenges. When the game first came out, people WANTED to take on the hardest mobs they could. They would gladly spend 10 minutes fighting a crab for 200 xp, until eventually everyone learned that hey, you get xp a billion times faster if you do lots of easy, boring fights instead.

So I can understand how FFXI players have adopted the mindset that avoiding death is where all of the excitement comes from. But it's still warped.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#58 Aug 28 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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last time I checked failing to jump over a soda can under penalty of death does not make me feel more accomplished bye doing so. nerve wracking maybe, but its neither rewarding or fun.


the risk is the loss of time invested, if I spend 20 minutes in a gruling fight and lose I don't get my exp, I don't get to advance, and im out 20 minutes of play time, and I have to restart the task again. But I am encouraged to try again because I now have knowledge and experiance and am therfore better sutied to retry the current and future task.


The whole point is that you fear dying. Then it's not irrelevant to you if you die or not.

Just losing time isn't enough. In normal activities you might lose maybe 2minutes of playtime (the amount of time it takes from you to run back to where you exp'd). Where's the risk in that? If you die and lose exp, you really lose concrete time (the time it took from you to get that exp). And more often than not even in FFXI, if you have to do something like a mission that takes longer you don't lose exp while inside the BCNM so you only lose the time it took you to get to the BCNM in that case.


Edited, Aug 29th 2009 1:17am by Hyanmen
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#59 Aug 28 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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All I can say is that you seem to thrive on risk, unlike most people.

My advice is to stay away from casinos.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Aug 28 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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last time I checked failing to jump over a soda can under penalty of death does not make me feel more accomplished bye doing so. nerve wracking maybe, but its neither rewarding or fun.


the risk is the loss of time invested, if I spend 20 minutes in a gruling fight and lose I don't get my exp, I don't get to advance, and im out 20 minutes of play time, and I have to restart the task again. But I am encouraged to try again because I now have knowledge and experiance and am therfore better sutied to retry the current and future task.


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The whole point is that you fear dying. Then it's not irrelevant to you if you die or not.

Just losing time isn't enough. In normal activities you might lose maybe 2minutes of playtime (the amount of time it takes from you to run back to where you exp'd). Where's the risk in that? If you die and lose exp, you really lose concrete time (the time it took from you to get that exp). And more often than not even in FFXI, if you have to do something like a mission that takes longer you don't lose exp while inside the BCNM so you only lose the time it took you to get to the BCNM in that case


Yes a normal fight in ffxi does only take 2 minutes so if you didn't lose exp you have only lost 2 min of time you invested in the fight and there would be not enough risk and would be to easy, therfore not fun. In that aspect you are right. However the fact that most fights only take two minutes of invested time is the problem that I am arguing. every little battle should cause you to invest more time so each battle is like a mini bcnm, so to speak, and I’m sure you would agree the harder the fight the more fun you have (within reason of course), exp mobs are not challenging at all in ffxi and that is why exp grinding is lack luster and can be done with one hand occupied by pizza. A penalty (exp loss) is there to supplement for the lack of challenge and risk in exp mobs, and is a poor excuse for "fun". What should be fixed is more challenge, longer battles, so there is more time investment upfront and therefore no need for a penalty. In other words you pay up front with time for a chance to obtain a reward, rather than pay with time after you have lost your chance at a reward. So you see time is still lost either way.

#61 Aug 28 2009 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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I’m sure you would agree the harder the fight the more fun you have
I consider Contaminated Colosseum one of the "harder" KSNMs for melees, if you don't pay very close attention there is a very high chance you will die, if enough people aren't paying close enough attention there is a good chance you will fail. I don't consider it fun at all. I'd much rather be doing Copycat, double draconian, season's greetings or one of the many other "interesting" KSNMs instead.
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#62 Aug 29 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Just losing time isn't enough.


Yes it is. There are many battles in this game that if you wipe, you lose. Timed BCNM's, rage timers on HNM's, Assault, Nyzul, Dynamis, Einherjar, Salvage, etc all run on time schedules and ******** up and wiping can kill a run. That is the stick for most of these things.

The xp lost is is just insult to injury. All it means is going out to meripo or campaign and flicking the switch from limit points to xp points. It's not challenging to regain xp, its an annoying time waster.

I don't think I've ever gotten through a fight saying, " whew, that was so fun because I don't have to go rebuild a buffer". But I've gotten through many a fight saying, " good thing we didn't wipe, or we'd have timed out for sure. Good work everyone.". It's an important difference.

XP loss is a pointless stick when most of the activities in this game have time limits. In the presence of infinite time, then an extra penalty for death becomes important. But there are few of those things left in FFXI. Why do you think they've been removing xp loss for so many activities. I say, get rid of it altogether.
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#63 Aug 29 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Default
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Yes it is. There are many battles in this game that if you wipe, you lose. Timed BCNM's, rage timers on HNM's, Assault, Nyzul, Dynamis, Einherjar, Salvage, etc all run on time schedules and ******** up and wiping can kill a run. That is the stick for most of these things.


Just losing time isn't enough for some of the activities. In endgame some things are different, since you really lose enough time just by dying. But when it comes to normal leveling activities and things you do most of your playtime, there has to be something else other than just the very minimal time loss involved.

I would say that leveling your character is still the biggest part of FFXI and for that activity death penalty is required the way it is right now.

So, because there are limited time activities in the game you'd get rid of the penalty from features that have infinite time as well? I don't really get your logic.
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#64 Aug 29 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Leveling your character is also incredibly boring, death penalty or not. I'm afraid the problem with leveling/grinding has nothing to do with not enough risk. It's just that the gameplay is old and not very complex or engaging.

I haven't considered leveling one of the stronger features of the game since I was level 60, years ago. Leveling is something you endure to get to the actual content. Personally I'd prefer it if after you leveled one job to 75, you could level the others two or three times as fast. They're not challenging to learn or play as-- I'd feel just as challenged working on a factory assembly line for hours at a time. And it'd be roughly just as fun.

I don't level secondary mains because it's so incredibly boring, and a harsher death penalty would make it that much more boring because it would take even longer.

Now if you ask me, what they should have done a long time ago was get rid of the ridiculously low 200-300xp cap altogether and allow you to get thousands of xp for killing a mob that was that much stronger than you. Fighting a mob that strong would be challenging and fun. Fighting ***** after ***** is not.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#65 Aug 29 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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sirhenrywalton wrote:
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It’s not avoiding punishment that makes games challenging its overcoming greater and greater tasks, not dying is not a challenge, soloing fenrir, or taking on a hyper nm, that’s a challenge. The challenge comes from the difficulty of the task not the severity of the punishment. Look at First person shooters I don't ever remember playing a FPS and being sent back to the previous level because I died too many times. I just start at the checkpoint and try overcoming the obstacle again, and when I do overcome, it is rewarding because I was involved and invested in the task and my perseverance payed off while making me a better player by encouraging me to try new tactics and learning from mistakes.



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Wheres the risk of losing then? If you get a penalty when you die, you'll try to avoid death at all costs.. but if there's no such a thing, it doesn't matter if you die or not; you can just start at the checkpoint and try again. Boring.



last time I checked failing to jump over a soda can under penalty of death does not make me feel more accomplished bye doing so. nerve wracking maybe, but its neither rewarding or fun.


the risk is the loss of time invested, if I spend 20 minutes in a gruling fight and lose I don't get my exp, I don't get to advance, and im out 20 minutes of play time, and I have to restart the task again. But I am encouraged to try again because I now have knowledge and experiance and am therfore better sutied to retry the current and future task.



Yes in your context you have the loss of time as a downside of death. However, you're taking it in only one context. What about repetative death, where someone just keeps dying and coming back to sac pull or keep a mob claimed. You could keep this up forever if you have no penalty.

Furthermore, what about abusing the system such as MPKing people, or people just running around and dying for fun? If there's nothing to punish them from doing this, people will be flopping all over the place, and it'll just be annoying.

If you think players will be psychologically detered from killing themselves just because their ego would take a blow, I don't think you've ever really took time to observe the average person playing. In reality, no one really gives a **** tbh.
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#66 Aug 29 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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There are plenty of other workarounds for those problems without harsh death penalties.

Generally just requiring a sufficient length of time to raise solves the problem easily.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#67 Aug 29 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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What about repetative death, where someone just keeps dying and coming back to sac pull or keep a mob claimed.
People do this already with the current penalties. IIR one LS kept AV claimed for ~6hrs with sack pulls so the rest of the LS could get some rest before they started serious attempts again. Once again: harsh penalties don't deter (seasoned/jaded) players from letting themselves get killed, they just frustrate a large percentage of the (usually newer) players that die unpurposefully/repetitively.
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#68 Aug 29 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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People do this already with the current penalties. IIR one LS kept AV claimed for ~6hrs with sack pulls so the rest of the LS could get some rest before they started serious attempts again. Once again: harsh penalties don't deter (seasoned/jaded) players from letting themselves get killed, they just frustrate a large percentage of the (usually newer) players that die unpurposefully/repetitively.


People do this rarely, and its a difference between a commonly used strategy and something that people (not many people either) use very rarely. Penalties stop these kind of strategies from being commonly used. If a ls uses it very sparingly, then it doesn't become a problem. When these type of things become commonly used, because their is no penalty besides pride (if thats even a penalty, because who really cares), then it is a problem.
#69 Aug 29 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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I'll note again that there are several ways to make sac pulling an impossibility. I've had this discussion before, and don't feel like detailing them again, but I'm sure you can pretty easily figure out at least one way.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#70 Aug 29 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they should get rid of exp penalty but they should settle it down to like 0-10% depending on your current level. Let's take FFXI as example.

Level 0-15 = 0%
Level 16-30 = 2%
Level 30-40 = 4%
Level 50-60 = 6%
Level 60-70 = 8%
Level 70-75 10%

May be make it even Group based, if you're solo you lose half of that.

I know for my part that I quit leveling BLM and BST because of exp loss and that lead me to the point where I've quitted FFXI altogether!
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#71 Aug 29 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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I would say that leveling your character is still the biggest part of FFXI and for that activity death penalty is required the way it is right now.


OTher than BST and BLM, I don't think anyone worries about the death penalty in xp/merit parties anymore. Death in a party becomes annoying because of prolonged weakened state not because of a loss of xp.

XP loss in endgame does start to add up at times and again, while not a deterrant, it definitely leads to annoying time spent re-establishing buffers.

You can penalize players for dying and not take away their xp for it. It's an unimaginitive time sink and has stunted much of the fun in FFXi for a while now.
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#72 Aug 30 2009 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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OTher than BST and BLM, I don't think anyone worries about the death penalty in xp/merit parties anymore.


Personaly I don't think anyone at merit level cares about exp loss well BST may be I don't know. It's the leveling part that scares people off.

When FFXI was new there was no problem to get low- and midlevel partys but by the time I've quite it was hard to get a party within 5-6hrs and if you happen to get a pretty bad one then you're possibly doomed with less exp then you logged on with and that is killing the fun and getting people to quit.
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#73 Aug 30 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
I would much rather have the current exp loss/weakness penalty than an armor degradation system which ends up costing currency for repairs or replacement. At least while you are learning the ropes (and dying as a result) you can go back out and play.... at some point can you imagine the complaining about simply not being able to repair or replace your equipment?

I think the current system is much more appealing than that of some others. At this point in the game, exp. is so easily replaced there is nothing to complain about. I find de-leveling also totally acceptable. Gaining a level shouldn't automatically make you safe from losing exp. (at that level).

Much easier to head back out and continue to gain exp. then run around town getting broke having your armor repaired.
#74 Aug 30 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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XP loss in FFXI was more of a inconvenience than anything. Especially in the last couple years where xp to level went down and xp per hour went up.

The penalty for dying should be more based on what your doing. Not being able to complete a quest or what you were trying to do should be enough to stop people from wanting to die. You already waisted time there if you didn't complete what you were trying to do since you died why does there have to be something ontop of that?

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