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Dual-Wield - The key to hybrid classes ?Follow

#1 Aug 25 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Could dual-wielding be the key to hybrid classes ?

We've seen at Gamescom that right-hand gives some abilities and left-hand gives other abilities (shield giving Provoke and defensive skills, sword giving weapon skills).

And it seems pretty safe to assume that most armors will be wearable by any class. They stated everywhere that you would switch your weapon after a fight to heal yourself. That wouldn't be effective if you had to switch to mage gear at the same time, dropping your hp and starting with no mp since you had gladiator armors before ...

Example: If you dual-wield a katana and a dagger, that could turn you into some type of Assassin class (ninja and thief mix).

The only hybrids that would cause problems would be FFXI Paladins and Red Mage types (assuming classes like Dark Knights can access both weapon skills and some black magic from the scythes). A Paladin wearing a white magic wand and a shield would not be really **** ... It would require magic swords for these combos to work.

Holy Sword + Shield = Paladin

Holy Sword + Dark Sword = Red Mage

If we keep trying to think outside the box, there could left-hand tools that allows more unusual classes. Examples: dices for gambler, a monster skills memory receptacle for blue mage, a monster communicator for beast-master that unlocks pet commands abilities, etc ...

Combine these tools with another one-handed weapon in your other hand + all kind of different armors and you've got yourself a lot of freedom.

I just really hope they allow some ways to customize your class to be "hybrid" in-battle and not just switch to staff after every fight to heal yourself. That could get boring very quickly ...

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#2 Aug 25 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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I thought about this before and the concept seems pretty interesting, but I think the character representing the magic discipline is wielding a staff with two hands.

I think most weapons usable by mages are two handed (hammers are an exception I guess. I remember using one with my WHM in FFXI).

How would the right hand and left hand give different abilities for magic users if their weapon is two handed? I think the same would go for an archer.

I'm not saying it isn't feasible because of this, rather I am just very interested in learning how this will work.

But I can definitely see a dual-wield ability after a character reaches a certain skill level with different weapons.

Maybe only certain weapons can be dual wielded?

Anyway, I really want to learn more about the action/skill based fighting system and the right and left handed abilities.

Edit: Anyway, more on topic, I think that a dual-wield ability, or something similar, as a method to create a hybrid 'class' would be a great way to allow players to further customize their characters and make them more unique.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 6:28pm by Finaa
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#3 Aug 25 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I'm kind of leery about this whole idea that your skills are entirely based on your weapon/armor, so you can't have magic with a sword. It really seems to stifle customization, but SE keeps saying that FFXIV will focus on character growth and development.

I've thought of this before for a game, but I rather do like the idea of acquiring abilities from weapons, kind of like in IX.

For example, you equip a staff that lets you cast Fire. As long as you have the staff equipped, you can use Fire. But if you unequip the staff, you can not use Fire. However, by gaining "experience" or "AP" with that weapon, eventually you'll be able to acquire or learn Fire. From then on, staff or not, you can cast Fire. Of course, this acquire/learn amount of AP should probably be pretty high, especially for more powerful/effective skills or spells. Thus, it will allow customization, but you still need to focus on what exactly you want to do.

Even if there isn't a sort of cap or seesaw effect, you have to decide what you want to work on first, and to what end. Do you want to become the equivalent of a Red Mage? By spending time to learn both White and Black Magic, you will lose time you could've spent specializing in either like a White Mage or Black Mage would respectively. And then throw in a weapon proficiency for good measure. Perhaps better swords teach better skills or have the equivalent of "learnable traits," i.e. STR+5 becomes a permanent character bonus after you gain the requisite amount of experience/AP on a weapon.

Anyway, I think that system would be awesome and allow the hybrids we know and love. Throw in the ability to re-spec or move your skills around (perhaps with some limitations to be fair), and it would be pretty darn flexible and customizable.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 5:30pm by Caes
#4 Aug 25 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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#5 Aug 25 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know, the whole thing seems like an awful lot of work to only present what is basically the ability to change jobs on the field.

There are weird little restrictions that don't make sense in the scope of it. Like, what would be the point of limiting you to 10 actions? Or why bother splitting things up into disciplines, if there are rigid outlines of jobs already? 2-handed weapon wielders not getting to customize would lead to strange balance issues; would they have to be natively stronger to make up for the loss of versatility and all the balancing nightmare that stems from that? If your weapon changes you from combat classes to gathering classes, and your weapon can't be changed during battle, what happens when you get aggro while gathering?

I think there's some underlying element missing here.






Edited, Aug 25th 2009 7:32pm by Zemzelette
#6 Aug 25 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Holy Sword + Shield = Paladin


I've always pictured a paladin as:

Holy Mace + Shield

But that is just me, i think seperating swords and maces into those kind of distinctions would probably be easier - swords for warriors / w/e and maces for palis / whms.
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#7 Aug 25 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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ChinookFFXIV wrote:
We've seen at Gamescom that right-hand gives some abilities and left-hand gives other abilities (shield giving Provoke and defensive skills, sword giving weapon skills).

I believe there is a significant chance that some items may be main hand only while others are offhand. While a mace or katana may be a one handed item, it may not be one you can wield in your offhand. The offhand slot might consist of only items like a parrying dagger, shield, or rod/orb. There are also limitations unnecessarily imposed on two handed weapons.

Another reason why I don't you will be able to hybrid this way is because it allows class mixes, like in FFXI. This creates huge balance problems.
ChinookFFXIV wrote:
I just really hope they allow some ways to customize your class to be "hybrid" in-battle and not just switch to staff after every fight to heal yourself. That could get boring very quickly ...

We don't know enough about combat to accurately judge how interesting it may be, but regardless I do believe your suggestion would create a lot of problems.
#8 Aug 25 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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At this point it seems more likely to me that we'll have "magic weapons." The key to a hybrid class probably won't be a Sword+Staff, but a Holy Sword+Lightning Blade. Something along those lines.

*So yeah, pretty much what you said.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 4:45pm by Kachi
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#9 Aug 25 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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As long as 2h weapons aren't penalized for having half the abilities or something idc

For balance, maybe there could be something like "Gauntlet" from FFVI where you can choose to hold a 1-handed weapon with both hands to increase power?

edit: Really, given that you can switch classes between battles, even having "hybrid" classes isn't very broken.

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 8:30pm by shintasama
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#10 Aug 25 2009 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really trying to fully speculate on SE battle system for FFXIV, just trying to understand where they're going.

I'm really worried about SE quotes of "you just switch your weapon after fight to heal yourself" ... I had in mind that you would be able to create your very-own class (in-battle skills sets) with the first infos they published a few weeks ago. For now, it only seems to be like FFXI without sub-jobs, but you can switch jobs on the battlefield ...

Guess we'll have to wait and see, so many little info has been released on game mechanics. It can't be so pointless.



Edited, Aug 25th 2009 8:36pm by ChinookFFXIV

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 8:37pm by ChinookFFXIV
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#11 Aug 25 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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Dual Wield Guns anyone?
#12 Aug 25 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Dual Wield Guns anyone?


Cowboy class ftw.


I am betting that creating a Paladin is a combination of a 'hammer' weapon (allows for defensive abilities) and a 'Holy shield' (allows for defensive abilities and limited white magic).

Red mage... well it's my baby (along with blu).. but it seems that EVERYONE will be a redmage to some extent. (customize and change your rdm to fit your expectation).

I also am betting that both BST and BLU abilities come from leveling up the discipline of the land. Use that harvesting axe and that leather-farming weapon to learn BST skills, and use that one handed 'scythe' (not a DRK-esque Grim Reaper one, but a one handed harvesting one) to level up your farming and BLU skills.

BST and BLU will undoubtedly be tied together in the 'Hand' discipline in my mind. In combination with either discipline of war (for bst) or Discipline of Magic (for blu).

I think it is these sorts of combinations that will lead us to the 'traditional' jobs.

Take discipline of War and discipline of Magic to create either a paladin or a dark knight, depending on which paths you take in both War and Magic. If you take a defensive War path and a healing Magic path, you can become a player with the title of 'Paladin'. Take a DPS War path and a black magic Magic path, then you can become a player with the title of 'Dark Knight'.

Take the path of the Hand of blacksmithing and the path of War and you can become a Samurai.

ETC ETC.

I just sorta think everyone will be a 'redmage' to start out with. And at endgame those with the most disciplines leveled will be the red mage in their group.
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#13 Aug 25 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I've thought about the Armoury System as well and whether there will be hybrid type classes like RDM, PLD, BLU, etc. I dunno. Since there won't be clear cut "jobs" and only classes, the skill bar will probably decide what "job" a character mostly resembles. Now 10 skills on the bar seems to be limiting, but I think the skill bar is only for standard action skills(offensive, defensive, etc.) NOT including spells or abilities like Weaponskills. Sword+Shield means lots of physical attack and defensive skills/abilities, and magical skills when using magic-type weapons. Now whether or not we will be able to mix melee skills with magic skills is unknown with the exception of actually swapping out our close-combat weapon for a magical one. Which I hope there is a way to mix magic with melee.

OFF TOPIC: That brings me to another thought. Since there are no "real levels" and only weapon levels. How does HP/MP work out? Will weapons and armor provide the ONLY growth to each character's HP/MP? When switching weapons, ie, from sword, to staff (from fighter to mage) will our HP/MP levels jump up and down right there and then? But since we're going from melee class to caster class, our HP will shrink, assuming magic users have lower HP, and our MP will rise, but will the MP be completely filled as if we changed in a Moghouse from 11, or will the MP bar simply raise in cap, leaving the player to fill it up themselves through resting or spells, etc.???? There HAS to be limitations to switching weapons(classes) right after a fight. Just seems too easy.

BACK ON TOPIC: But I think SE will include weapons that possess both MAGIC AND MELEE skills/abilities to quench our thirst for "hybrid classes." Because remember in FF11 it wasn't uncommon to find a sword or axe, or some sort of stereotypical "fighter weapon" with magic stats on it.

I don't know, it could be anything. Honestly though, I think SE hasn't revealed enough of the Armoury System and play mechanics for us to guess anything accurately. Time will tell!

;]
#14 Aug 25 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel as tho, hybrid classes wont be attainable until different skills are built up, but i defiantly believe they are the key to hybrid classes.

I also wonder the differentiation between left and right hand, which they mentioned at gamecon. Will one be the main offensive hand and the other the more defense hand? Will the placement of a weapon in hand vary your abilities? E.g sword in your right hand and shield in your left hand put you melee mode, and vice-versa with a shield in your right hand and sword in your left put you into tanking mode. This may explain how one can become a red/blue mage or paladin. Sword in your right hand, staff in your left, ect...
#15 Aug 25 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXIV seems to be more along the lines of the developers saying to themselves

"If I picked up this weapon what would it be like to use?"

What I hold in my hands define what I can do, what are the realities of weapons use.

I doubt we'll see dual wield implemented in the same manner as FFXI, meaning I don't think you'll see characters able to take any one-handed weapon hold it in one hand then any other one-handed weapon and hold it in the other. In reality it would be unwieldy.

You'll probably only be able to off-hand smaller weapons daggers/knives/short swords/katanas(wakizashi)

There are so many types of each category of weapon, take the sword: Gladius, Spatha, Xiphos, Sabre, Cutlass, Falchion, Talwar, Rapier, Bilbo, Baselard, Dao, Longsword and many more. Some are short, fast slashing weapons some are light, fast piercing weapons and some are larger heavier chopping impaling weapons.

I can see perhaps using a Rapier, a slender light weapon would not require great strength. In fact you'd need keen reflexes and a quick mind to wield one properly. Not being focused on raw damage or strength, the user of a Rapier could probably develop techniques to mislead their opponent. Become an enfeebler, basically a RDM.

Scimitar user could end up being BLU.

Those will most likely be done without the need for dual wielding.

As a PLD in FFXI I would love to be able to be a PLD in FFXIV, in that I think the shield will be what allows healing in that if I take a defensive stance I block further damage and may even regenerate health while protecting myself.

I am both excited and terrified about what they are going to end up giving us with FFXIV. We all have jobs we love in FFXI and the thought of not having them in FFXIV is unthinkable, but we all may be relieved or depressed with the final product.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 3:15am by kgav
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#16 Aug 26 2009 at 5:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm really hoping the only hybrid combinations are not in dual-wield only be it sword + wand etc...
My main wish is for SE to make magic weapons that give access to melee and magic abilities. Ex: Spellsword
#17 Aug 26 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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If there is a Rdm type class it's probably going to be defined by a Rapier type weapon.
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#18 Aug 26 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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#19 Aug 26 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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As previous people have mentioned. I'm really curious how FFXI melee jobs with a natural MP pool will translate into FFXIV. DRK and PLD being the two that pop in my head as an example. Both with a natural MP pool in FFXI but both very different jobs. One uses shield/sword combo with spells to help heal/protect, while the other uses a two-handed weapon with spells to enfeeble/deal damage.

Huh, I suppose I don't really have a point or direction to my post, more than anything just musing I guess.
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#20 Aug 26 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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PLD and DRK had MP pools in FFXI but they might not in FFXIV. A PLD is a defender of the party the tank, healing was never the primary role of a PLD is was a means for the PLD to generate hate. A PLD with significantly improved defensive capabilities and added hate generating tools would not require the ability to heal himself or others to generate hate, therefore I believe using a shield will give much more over time than just provoke, shield bash and a single blocking stance. The use of a shield over time might begin to give the PLD levels of immunity to various magics, and the ability to regenerate his HP while in a defending stance.

A DRK is a DD using a Scythe or Great Sword a user might be able to utilize techniques that do added damage, drain the HP or TP, stun or cripple the opponent beyond what the user of other weapons can do. These techniques might be characterized as dark techniques.

In the end MP and magic casting might have nothing to do with filling the role of a PLD or a DRK, odd yes, but there a many ways to achieve the same results.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 1:06pm by kgav
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#21 Aug 26 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not just about roles, though. There are elements of style. There's the important element of -play- in role-playing. In that sense, you really can't subtract the holy magic from the paladin or the dark magic from the dark knight. Otherwise you have, I don't know, Sentinels and Berserkers.
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#22 Aug 26 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
...you really can't subtract the holy magic from the paladin or the dark magic from the dark knight. Otherwise you have, I don't know, Sentinels and Berserkers.


Which is what we might actually end up with...

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the Maurader class will be like. At the moment there doesn't seem to be too much overlap between the traditional definition of the word and that image...
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