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Do you want to see soulbound gear on FFXIV?Follow

#1 Aug 25 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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On most MMO's, virtually every piece of gear you aquire is "soulbound," meaning it can't be traded once it has been equipped. Personally I'm a bit torn on this idea, because I liked being able to pick up a bunch of gear when leveling, and then selling it to get my money back once I outgrew it. However, I also remember how alot of crafted gear totally flooded the market, greatly decreasing its value (and making it pointless to become a crafter). For example, I remember light staffs gradually go from being worth a few hundred thousand gil, to a few thousand gil, simply because there were so many of them.

What do you guys think?
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#2 Aug 25 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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I have heard quite a few players suggest that valuable gear should be made Rare/Ex.

Honestly I'm not sure how else SE can combat RMT without hurting the actual playerbase.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 12:23am by akirussan
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#3 Aug 25 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't recall much of the FFXI crafting system, so I don't know if this existed or not but....

Why not make binded items decomposable? In other words, you can't sell the finished product, but you (only the person who has it equipped) can decompose it and then sell the raw materials, which only an experienced blacksmith or tailor (or whatever) can use to recreate the item (or perhaps a different one?)

Instead of selling the gear you can sell the parts...and to different people if you wanted.

Then again, when I played RMT wasn't that much of a problem, so I could be totally off on whether something like this has potential to reduce RMT.
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#4 Aug 25 2009 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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In the end, SE struck a pretty good balance with what should be Rare/Ex and what wasn't. (Equipment-wise, anyway.)

The only problem was that there was simply no reduction of gear in the economy, which proved to kind of suck for crafters. Since there is durability now, I'm curious to what kind of effects it would have, economy-wise.
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#5 Aug 26 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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Cirvantes wrote:
For example, I remember light staffs gradually go from being worth a few hundred thousand gil, to a few thousand gil, simply because there were so many of them.


The problem with these is that there's no way to get rid of them through desynthesis. Crafters can't attempt to recover the beads on NQ results, and you can only sell them to NPCs for ~7250. If a light bead goes for 200k, and you have a 25% desynth rate on the bead, bottom price of light staves would be around 50k.
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#6 Aug 26 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kirbster wrote:
In the end, SE struck a pretty good balance with what should be Rare/Ex and what wasn't. (Equipment-wise, anyway.)

The only problem was that there was simply no reduction of gear in the economy, which proved to kind of suck for crafters. Since there is durability now, I'm curious to what kind of effects it would have, economy-wise.


I agree with Kirbster whole-heartedly. My first MMO was Ultima Online and there was no such thing as R/E items at all, everything was usible by anyone (requirements met, ofc!) and I was more than able to lend my Sword of Awesome Knackery to my mate if I so wished. With durability and repairing items lowering the max durability (leading to items eventually being ruined) the equipment market was entirely player driven-- whether items were crafted or obtained via PvE. The great bonus with this is complete interchangability and hand-me-downs to friends.

Skip forward 6 years and I start playing WoW. Soulbound is the new word and at first I find it really confusing, but once Molten Core is released and the raiding trend sets in (no such thing in UO, when I played during T2A at least) and the Soulbound system begins to make sense. While I could no longer lend my Sword of Awesome Knackery to my friend, it meant that my SoAK was more powerful in the long run, as many people who had not got as far as I did not have equipment to match, no matter the weight of their wallet.

As you can see, there are definate pro's and con's to each system. Final Fantasy XI nestles nicely in between these two areas-- providing powerful equipment sourced from PvE and crafting that can be re-sold or handed down as well as items that are difficult to aquire due to having to get them from their source. However, lacking a duribility system of UO means every Sword of Awesome Knackery that is created decreases the value of all other SoAKs. A great balance between R/E and open gear, combined with some sort of durability/limited life of items could pan out to some very interesting market mechanics indeed!

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 4:50am by Kordain
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#7 Aug 26 2009 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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Finaa wrote:
I don't recall much of the FFXI crafting system, so I don't know if this existed or not but....

Why not make binded items decomposable? In other words, you can't sell the finished product, but you (only the person who has it equipped) can decompose it and then sell the raw materials, which only an experienced blacksmith or tailor (or whatever) can use to recreate the item (or perhaps a different one?)

Instead of selling the gear you can sell the parts...and to different people if you wanted.


This is actually a very interesting idea. This not only secures a crafter's value, but answers the question on finished products being part of the economy or not. Rate up Smiley: nod
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#8 Aug 26 2009 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I like BoE, but not BoP for event/NM drops, and non-binding craft synths. I don't mind repairing gear, but max durability shouldn't ever decrease, SE is way too bad about making us work ridiculous amounts for gear only to have it go "bad".

A good way to combat RMT is just to have multiple ways of getting (at least comparable) gear/items. RMT are adept at hoarding a NM, but having a NM + rare synth + instance drop makes it harder to "fix" the market.
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#9 Aug 26 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I definitely like the idea of making rare/ex equipment be deconstruct-able. This would help to encourage crafting from the materials received.
#10 Aug 26 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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It seems to me that in the last few days I'd read one of the developer interviews and seen a quote indicating equipment would wear out with use and require repair or replacement, but now I can't find it. Did anyone else see that?
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#11 Aug 26 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Greenray wrote:
It seems to me that in the last few days I'd read one of the developer interviews and seen a quote indicating equipment would wear out with use and require repair or replacement, but now I can't find it. Did anyone else see that?


It was stated during one of the Gamescon interviews, let me see if I can dig it up...

FFXIV Core interview with Tanaka wrote:
Is the Economic situation of FFXIV going to be mainly player based with Auction Houses or non-player based with NPC ran stores?

We can't go into details about this just yet. We're very sorry about that. This question is better suited to be asked in a couple of months time. However, it's going to be not the same as with auctionhouses, but something very interesting.

Also, this time the weapons are going to be worn out, a durability system. So you will have to repair them and it will cost money.


Linked on the current front page story.
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#12 Aug 26 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Default
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Considering I prefer a game that rewards you based on the challenges you overcome moreso than the amount of money you earn, I prefer if the better items are EX/soulbound. There are lots of ways to stimulate a vibrant player economy without depending on the trade of high demand items.
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#13 Aug 26 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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It'd be disingenuous to support "soul bound" and "exclusives" yet be against DRM (which i know most, if not all of us hate) since they are the same thing. A process that limits what the consumer can do with the product for the sake of supporting a flawed system rather than fixing it altogether. Video games are supposed to be an exercise in creativity, not an exercise in arbitrary quick-fix amendments for the flaws.

Because of the AH system players only wanted to set their HPs where they had easy access to the AH. This caused crafters and farmers to also have to compete with each other all in one bucket since thats where ALL the players are. If the players had a reason to be more spread out it would alleviate some of the economical flaws and exploitation by RMT. You can't really call it a market when all transactions are centralized in 2 hub nations and limiting variety for other locations to set up shop or utilize other AHs. The starting nations have only niche activity and the out-lands are less populated than the starting nations.

It also did no help that NPCs weren't created to offer competitive prices for goods based on said goods availability. like if their was a lot of an item on AH they could be sold for a near the same price as the AH to dispose of items in a saturated market. If items were scarce NPCs would offer buy/sell goods for relatively inflated prices allowing players to undercut and still make a bit of gil. This should also serve as a means of removing and creating gil at more stable levels even if RMT were rampant.

The concepts I've expressed may or may not actually work , but the point is the concept/theory is sound and relatively imaginative. compared to just saying "well I just won't allow people to sell these items at all, mission accomplished". It doesn't make sense in any form of reality why something like that could actually happen. Fantasy shouldn't be used as a means to constrict those indulging in a fantasy, we're supposed to be allowed to do things we can't do in reality not prevent people from doing things that we can do in reality. This is just a lack of imagination, poor game design, and repugnance.

Rarity should be based on materials that are hard to come by to create said item and not having to wait for the mob to spawn or wait for it to drop an item it prolly shouldn't have had in the first place. I still remember in Monster Hunter doing a Mission to kill a mob that gives me about 5 chances at carving materials from it about 50 times before I got what I wanted(a wing which they all have 2 of but I have to just accept I can't always get it *cringe*.

This means that I made at least 250 carves on a mob before I managed to get the one rare carve I needed. Then another mob for around 40-50 attempts and to my surprise I had carved 2 of the rarest materials on a mob that you get which had 9 worthwhile carves on. Thats about 360-450 carves before I got the at least 1(tho I got 2).

I only bring this up because just about everything has to be crafted in MH though all the crafting is done by NPCs when you give them materials. Their is no crafting outside of the alchemy you perform for consumables are some special craft materials. Also you can only sell your gear to NPCs tho for the same price you paid for the weapons and armor, but it of course also cost you the materials you gathered in the first place.

If near 100% of goods were craftable a similar system could be put into place that doesn't demean craftables due to the existence of extremely desirable items coming from drops.

Basically more synergy and less confliction.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 2:15pm by baltz
#14 Aug 26 2009 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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It'd be disingenuous to support "soul bound" and "exclusives" yet be against DRM (which i know most, if not all of us hate) since they are the same thing. A process that limits what the consumer can do with the product for the sake of supporting a flawed system rather than fixing it altogether.


Non sequitur much?

Rules and limitations in a game are not DRM. That is taking a huge logical leap.
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#15 Aug 26 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Non sequitur much?

Rules and limitations in a game are not DRM. That is taking a huge logical leap.


I'm talking about limitations with logic, When you tell a consumer "hey, when you by this, you can not resell this ever again" thats begin anti-consumer. There are better ways of balancing out the system than just taking away the ability to do something arbitrarily.

These are professional developers, they should not have to rely on a kill-switch to fix a problem, they should be imaginative. Otherwise whats the point of being a game designer?

Too me a good game is a game that does not offend the players sensibilities, and not being able to resell something for pretty much no reason is pretty much an insult to mine, and all gamers sensibilities.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 1:53pm by baltz
#16 Aug 26 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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The designer who came up with Soulbound/EX gear was being imaginative too.

It's just a solution for a problem that was wholly appropriate for it's time. The longer MMOs lived the more saturated their markets became. Because armor was where power and prestige used to be centralized, having a saturation of armor was game-breaking. For it's time it was a great idea, it only seems stale to you because your used to it.

Eventually some designer is going to come up with another clever idea that will keep the market from being saturated and maintaining the crafting system while allowing players the ability to liquidate their assets and preserving a sense of history to items. Just because nobody's managed it quite yet doesn't mean they won't, or don't want to.

The MMO industry is interesting like that, even within the scope of a singular game it is undergoing a constant process of evolution. What you take for granted as standard today is passe' tomorrow. That's part of the appeal, I think. There are a few game design decisions in MMOs that stem from lazy, unimaginative, and downright customer hostile intentions. And there are some things, like this, that are just in the midst of evolving.


Edited, Aug 26th 2009 2:17pm by Zemzelette
#17 Aug 26 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Default
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Someone needs to call OOT, it looks like another one got out.
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#18 Aug 26 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

The designer who came up with Soulbound/EX gear was being imaginative too.

It's just a solution for a problem that was wholly appropriate for it's time. The longer MMOs lived the more saturated their markets became. Because armor was where power and prestige used to be centralized, having a saturation of armor was game-breaking. It only seems stale to you because your used to it.

Eventually some designer is going to come up with another clever idea that will keep the market from being saturated and maintaining the crafting system while allowing players the ability to liquidate their assets and preserving a sense of history to items. Just because nobody's managed it quite yet doesn't mean they won't or even want to.

The MMO industry is interesting like that, even within the scope of a singular it is undergoing a constant process of evolution. What you take for granted as standard today is passe' tomorrow. That's part of the appeal, I think.

There are a few game design decisions in MMOs that stem from lazy, unimaginative, and downright customer hostile intentions. This is not one of them.


Oh yes I understand this, I was speaking in the sense that I hope they will move past these practices. If they actually preserved them then I would have ill will toward the MMO market.

and although I didn't quote it, I was making a long-winded response to the post above my first post

Quote:
Considering I prefer a game that rewards you based on the challenges you overcome moreso than the amount of money you earn, I prefer if the better items are EX/soulbound. There are lots of ways to stimulate a vibrant player economy without depending on the trade of high demand items.



Edited, Aug 26th 2009 2:24pm by baltz
#19 Aug 26 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Ryneguy wrote:
Finaa wrote:
I don't recall much of the FFXI crafting system, so I don't know if this existed or not but....

Why not make binded items decomposable? In other words, you can't sell the finished product, but you (only the person who has it equipped) can decompose it and then sell the raw materials, which only an experienced blacksmith or tailor (or whatever) can use to recreate the item (or perhaps a different one?)

Instead of selling the gear you can sell the parts...and to different people if you wanted.


This is actually a very interesting idea. This not only secures a crafter's value, but answers the question on finished products being part of the economy or not. Rate up Smiley: nod


I really like this idea too. I generally hate soulbound gear because I can't get any return from my investment. In games that use it there were times when I passed up using a gear that was slightly better than what I had, just because cost of binding that gear was not worth it. I shouldn't feel compelled to pass up upgrades simply because it reduces the value of the item to zero. Being able to break down the item still offers a return but doesn't flood the market. Great idea.
#20 Aug 26 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Finaa wrote:
I don't recall much of the FFXI crafting system, so I don't know if this existed or not but....

Why not make binded items decomposable? In other words, you can't sell the finished product, but you (only the person who has it equipped) can decompose it and then sell the raw materials, which only an experienced blacksmith or tailor (or whatever) can use to recreate the item (or perhaps a different one?)

Instead of selling the gear you can sell the parts...and to different people if you wanted.


This is actually a very interesting idea. This not only secures a crafter's value, but answers the question on finished products being part of the economy or not. Rate up Smiley: nod



Great idea unless someone for example does not want to level crafting? I say leave the system the same as in FFXI, w/ some items tradable and others not.
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#21 Aug 26 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Great idea unless someone for example does not want to level crafting? I say leave the system the same as in FFXI, w/ some items tradable and others not.


That's a good point, but if we are talking about rare weapons or armor that are difficult to obtain then I think it makes sense that it should require a lot of effort to get one...either by fighting a monster or completing a quest that rewards you with it, or by crafting it.

Say the item in question is only rewarded by killing a rare or difficult monster. One group decides they can make a ton of money by 'farming' these items and then selling them at high prices.

Soon they are everywhere and everyone has one.

On the other hand, if the item is bind on pick up or bind on equip, it would prevent them from being sold...so the player who earned it will eventually outgrow it and it will be useless.

If the items are decomposable then the player can sell the individual pieces. Even if the item itself is not craft-able, the pieces, separately, can be used to make other items.
If the item is craft-able, then a very good blacksmith or tailor can obtain the individual items and create the item for him/herself without needing to kill the monster. Either way, obtaining the item should be a feat.

It might hinder massive farming of 'rare' items just to sell to anyone for any price. But the player who earned the weapon can still make a profit...if they find someone who has need for the pieces and/or the skill to re-synthesize the item.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 5:37pm by Finaa
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#22 Aug 26 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, how to explain this. EX/"Soulbound" gear does not place purposeless restrictions on the trading of gear.

The purpose of EX is that the gear becomes a trophy. Now, you can always go to the store and buy a trophy, I suppose, but then it loses all meaning. EX gear is a trophy that you have actually completed the task necessary to acquire it.

Now, maybe soulbound gear that you can actually sell up until it gets equipped is a little different, but it still serves a few purposes that EX gear also serves. You clearly already know what they are. I guess I'm waiting for a better solution to be offered, because all theories of game systems that spring to mind seem to suggest that it's a pretty good system that can't be done much better without tackling the schematic nightmare that is real-world economics.

Quote:
Why not make binded items decomposable? In other words, you can't sell the finished product, but you (only the person who has it equipped) can decompose it and then sell the raw materials, which only an experienced blacksmith or tailor (or whatever) can use to recreate the item (or perhaps a different one?)

Instead of selling the gear you can sell the parts...and to different people if you wanted.


This seems to manage to circumvent the most relevant strengths of regular EX/soulbound gear while simultaneously creating new hassles for players. It could work ok if gear wore down -very- slowly, was completely reparable, players could ensure that their components wouldn't be swiped by crafters, and these items were tagged like Rare items were in XI.

It's an interesting idea that I don't think would be well-received by most players. In general people don't like it when trophy items require upkeep. A good game economy thrives on consumable items and low-medium equipment, not your relic weapon requiring upkeep.

Edit: Actually, letting players choose to break down their trophy items into consumables when they want to, rather than forcing it upon them, would probably work out just great. Unfortunately, it probably wouldn't do much for crafters or the economy. Point being, there's a balance here. If you want to stimulate an economy that is based on a materialistic successes, then you have to either damage demand or forcefully take materials away. Both of these are considered broken systems by most players.

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 4:56pm by Kachi
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#23 Aug 26 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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By selling the broken down materials you'd only create a situation where trophy items would be competed for not only the item itself, but also for the expensive desynthesis materials of said item. It seems that'd create an unneccessary congestion of players to me.
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#24 Aug 26 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
In the end, SE struck a pretty good balance with what should be Rare/Ex and what wasn't. (Equipment-wise, anyway.)


Agreed. I personally detest the whole "everything is bind-on-equip/acquire" thing that LotRO did, and would hate to see FFXIV follow the same model. Some stuff is fine. Just not everything.
#25 Aug 27 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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SE did a pretty good job with what is R/E and what is not in FFXI, didn't they?

Unlike WoW for example, where pretty much NOTHING exists that can be sold to other players after wearing/getting it, FFXI had only "special" Items to be R/E. Pretty much things that can only be aquired fulfilling certain tasks or Missions or beating HNMs.

The whole reason behind the R/E system was to let people have something "special" to show "Hey I got that piece of item", so everyone knows I beat that thing or cleared that Dynamis or w/e.

In fact those items were pretty much the best items to get, so it would be ridiculous to be able to "sell" those items, because that would only bring RMTs up at HNMs and even more "frightening", people who buy Gil at will, will have like the best gear, w/o even knowing how to play...

R/E Equip is not just a way to show off, but actually a way to show that person achieved something and can be considered "skillful to a certain degree". If that gear would be available to anyone w/o limitations...that would kind of trivialize endgame...nothing I would like to see.

FFXI did a good job IMO and SE can go on that way.
#26 Aug 28 2009 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I agree that SE struck a good balance between R/E and sellable gear in FFXI, and would like them to keep a similar system.

However I'd like an option to be able to bind my gear manually if I wanted to, maybe an NPC who offers the option as a service. That way you can bind your prized possessions that you dont ever intend to give up, or dont want stolen in the case of a hacking. And leave the stuff you intend to oneday outgrow unbound, and ready to resell in the future.



Edited, Aug 28th 2009 9:04am by GenryuOfBahamut
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#27 Aug 28 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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If the game is going to be casual player friendly at all, they need to steer clear of a serious player based economy.
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#28 Aug 29 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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#29 Aug 29 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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However I'd like an option to be able to bind my gear manually if I wanted to, maybe an NPC who offers the option as a service. That way you can bind your prized possessions that you dont ever intend to give up, or dont want stolen in the case of a hacking. And leave the stuff you intend to oneday outgrow unbound, and ready to resell in the future.

Even better, if they had an option to make it "Rare/Ex" for slightly increased stats. Like, it would make it +1, at the cost of making it "Rare/Ex". I'd be content with an option like that.
#30 Aug 29 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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dandantlm wrote:
If the game is going to be casual player friendly at all, they need to steer clear of a serious player based economy.



A player based economy is perhaps one of the more interesting things in an MMO. It makes the game way more dynamic, and includes a whole other element of thinking / planning.
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#31 Sep 01 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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Pluelf wrote:
dandantlm wrote:
If the game is going to be casual player friendly at all, they need to steer clear of a serious player based economy.



A player based economy is perhaps one of the more interesting things in an MMO. It makes the game way more dynamic, and includes a whole other element of thinking / planning.


I see that and mostly agree, but if it solely a playerbased economy it will not be very casual player friendly. We the players are too big of jerks and get greedy and will drive prices up too high for the casual player to be able to truly enjoy the game, due to not being able to afford the better gear options.
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#32 Sep 01 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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75+% Top Tier Items should be R/EX
30-40% High Demand/Bread and Butter Items R/EX
10% Fairly Common Items R/EX <-- For this, I'm thinking 'legendary' crafting materials, quest items or possibly just customized weapons/equipment if it's introduced.
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#33 Sep 02 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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BlackRagnarok wrote:
Even better, if they had an option to make it "Rare/Ex" for slightly increased stats. Like, it would make it +1, at the cost of making it "Rare/Ex". I'd be content with an option like that.


I like that idea quite a lot.
#34 Sep 02 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Good
No, I hate that WoW has literally everything soulbound. :P One of my favorite things about MMOs are the economy, and I like if people can sell equipment they no longer use back into the economy. It also makes it more interesting to buy items, because you know you can sell them later, maybe for profit or maybe for loss, they're not just going to the trash next time you get an upgrade.

The main thing they need is for things to be able to be deconstructed for materials to keep the supplies even.

But I agree that certain hard to acquire things should still be bound for the exclusivity so people aren't just buying them.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 11:25pm by digitalcraft
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#35 Sep 02 2009 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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As the game ages, it will be easier for a new player to equip themselves if vets drive the prices of decent mid level stuff down by making it abundant.

Crafters and by extention those who make most of thier money on the AH selling mats will make less money, but stuff will cost less outside of luxary items. Personally I'd prefer that something as simple as NQ ele staffs are pocket change. This way EVERY mage can access them. Going from some +int wand to an nq staff is a much bigger jump than nq to hq staff. This NQ level of good equip should be attainable by all without focusing most of thier time in game on making money.

I also think crafters should get far, far away from nq = loss make all profits in HQs, but thats another fun topic.
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#36 Sep 03 2009 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
Someone needs to call OOT, it looks like another one got out.
I see nothing of interest here.




Also, I vote yes on Soulbound gear. Honestly, WoW's take on it is pretty much flawless in my opinion. Especially considering their crafting system is supported by the same instance system that also supplies soulbound items. For example, some of the "best" items are actually crafted using materials that can only be farmed from instances, (And the patterns are from the same instances as well.) therefore covering the playing field pretty well.
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#37 Sep 03 2009 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
No, I hate that WoW has literally everything soulbound. :P One of my favorite things about MMOs are the economy, and I like if people can sell equipment they no longer use back into the economy. It also makes it more interesting to buy items, because you know you can sell them later, maybe for profit or maybe for loss, they're not just going to the trash next time you get an upgrade.

The main thing they need is for things to be able to be deconstructed for materials to keep the supplies even.

But I agree that certain hard to acquire things should still be bound for the exclusivity so people aren't just buying them.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 11:25pm by digitalcraft


World of Warcraft's soulbound system actually ends up helping the crafting market more than people think, whereas Final Fantasy XI ends up hindering it. Outgrowing gear issues aside per expansion, WoW's soulbound system basically ensures that there is almost always a demand for certain items. Even as we speak now, there's still demand for the very first craftable items in the current expansion, and the price on most items haven't really degenerated all that much.

Ensuring that once someone equips an item it can't be traded to someone else boosts the chance of a crafter being able to sell an item; WoW excels at this and FFXI does not. Is that to say that FFXI's crafting system fails? No, it doesn't (personally I say yes, because it's horribly implemented, but that's an opinion), but ultimately there will never be as huge of a chance to completely earn your living in crafting in FFXI as there is in WoW. Can you still make it happen in FFXI? Yes, but only in *very* select markets.

Personally, I'd say keep the soulbound/Rare-EX system and expand it even further. Too much gear was able to be traded after its prime for a person, could be resold, and the price continually went down -- ultimately it just hurts the crafters in the end. As fuzzy as a "happy" many people may like the ability to resell their gear, that action is actually what ends up harming the balance in the end and continually drives prices further down, and dissuades people from crafting (who otherwise may have enjoyed the profession) simply because they don't see the use when their craft's items are flooded constantly.

The ability to reduce the no longer useful items into components I'm on board with; this gives the item further value when it's not useful and those can be sold to recoup some of the cost of the original item. It cuts down on the final product, allows *some* return on investment, and doesn't absolutely destroy the crafting balance.
#38 Sep 03 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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@Streijder: Seriously...whats your point with WoW? Crafts from the start of the expansion are still desirable? Well in your world maybe...the price of the Titanium Weapons were at 3k at the start of the expansion, now they are as low as 800-1k...and the ONLY reason they are still sold, is because after you got something else/better, you can only trash it, so the Blacksmith can still sell one at some time...Gold in WoW is not earned by the "most expensive" items, but by the things that are constantly in demand, like crafting materials...still they dropped in price as well a LOT...Saronite was like 50-70g at the start of the expansion...now they are as low as 15g...

Other than that, the ONLY crafts that are desirable in WoW are the most updated recipes dropped in instances. 95% of all items a job can craft are simply to skill up. Not to mention the fact the 5% of crafts that are "good" are not needed...this is how WoW makes the crafting/economy system not existent...because it is not necessary...it gives "advantages"...but nobody needs them to progress.

FFXI was far from being "good" in the crafting system, but the aspect of the economy was much better. In fact it was an economy...items on high demand got more expensive...when the market was flooded with those items, they became cheap as ****...having a craft skilled to max actually net you profit if you were able to attain the materials yourself. But thats how its done...skilling up crafts in FFXI was a horrible thing...but actually that was something that made the crafts desirable and necessary. Ninjas needed Tools from Woodworking...imagine nobody skilling Woodworking on the server...well the whole Ninja could have been dropped dead...most equipment worn by players was crafted til they reached the R/E part of the endgame...in WoW the only people who are wearing crafted items are the ones who are too lazy, or do not have enough time to go into instances and get their drops.

Crafting and Economy is not just about availability...but also about necessity!

PS: Earn your living with crafting in WoW is the same **** as it is in FFXI...the only way you can really earn money is if you provide yourself with the materials...if you don't and you need to buy them from the AH, then even in WoW your "buy materials/sell item" profit is like 10% max...the only difference is getting the materials in WoW is a joke, while in FFXI it is a struggle.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 1:46pm by Shezard
#39 Sep 03 2009 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
StrijderVechter wrote:

World of Warcraft's soulbound system actually ends up helping the crafting market more than people think, whereas Final Fantasy XI ends up hindering it. Outgrowing gear issues aside per expansion, WoW's soulbound system basically ensures that there is almost always a demand for certain items. Even as we speak now, there's still demand for the very first craftable items in the current expansion, and the price on most items haven't really degenerated all that much.


Having items be able to be turned into materials also makes sure items always have worth and takes items out of circulation. It's a much more elegant solution than this entirely unrealistic idea that you can not hand your armor over to someone else. It also makes sure that materials are cheaper and in circulation than otherwise.

Quote:
Ensuring that once someone equips an item it can't be traded to someone else boosts the chance of a crafter being able to sell an item; WoW excels at this and FFXI does not. Is that to say that FFXI's crafting system fails? No, it doesn't (personally I say yes, because it's horribly implemented, but that's an opinion), but ultimately there will never be as huge of a chance to completely earn your living in crafting in FFXI as there is in WoW. Can you still make it happen in FFXI? Yes, but only in *very* select markets.


You would think it increases demand, but it just doesn't. If you play WoW, crafted items aren't in very high demand at all because people can just get stuff from instances, so why pay for something that you will get NO return value out of (unless you can disenchant, then you get a little). No, people would rather stick with drops.

Nobody earns their living crafting items in WoW, and if someone claims that I have to question their familiarity with the game. People do make money by crafting certain consumables, or materials, but people 'earn their living' by doing daily quests, normal quests, etc. Nobody makes their living by selling powerful gear.

Quote:
Personally, I'd say keep the soulbound/Rare-EX system and expand it even further. Too much gear was able to be traded after its prime for a person, could be resold, and the price continually went down -- ultimately it just hurts the crafters in the end. As fuzzy as a "happy" many people may like the ability to resell their gear, that action is actually what ends up harming the balance in the end and continually drives prices further down, and dissuades people from crafting (who otherwise may have enjoyed the profession) simply because they don't see the use when their craft's items are flooded constantly.


Its not a bad thing for cheap gear to be cheap. It causes supply and demand to have effect, something important for an economy. And, again, if there are uses for desynthing gear, it always has a base value and brings down the value of materials.

As fuzzy and "happy" many people may like the ability to not resell their gear, it just feels very contrived and is another thing that takes away the feeling of immersion, the feeling that the game world is a place. It solves problems that don't need solving. Some gear being cheap is good for the game as long as there is also more spendy gear. The trick is to find a good balance.
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#40 Sep 03 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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I hate soul bound gear, unless it's gear that is the reward from a long quest. I'm fine with say Raja's ring being untradeable, but anything that's crafted or dropped from a mob should be tradeable.

In terms of an economy, I think FFXI has a much more robust economy than something like WoW. having a trade skill in WoW is something you do for a personal advantage-- as an engineer I can put some tinkers on my gear that I couldn't pay some one else to put on-- they're simply not able to. In FFXI it is the opposite really. You can't possibly get enough out of your own crafting skills to justify the cost, but if you sell to others it begins to make sense.

I do make money crafting in WoW, but as some one else said, it's from making consumables, not from making gear. Flasks or cut gems or whatever are always in some demand. My blacksmith, who made good money for the first month of the expansion, hasn't been able to profitably make and sell anything since. Making gear bound to a character doesn't make it any more valuable or less valuable, it just makes gear seem more like a statistical paint job than an actual object.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 6:54pm by KarlHungis
#41 Sep 03 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't making SB equipment kind of hard for other players to repair?
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#42 Sep 03 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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netglen wrote:
Wouldn't making SB equipment kind of hard for other players to repair?


Only if you are required to transfer your equipment to another player's inventory before it can be repaired.

I doubt SE will set up the system this way for obvious reasons.
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#43 Sep 03 2009 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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akirussan wrote:
netglen wrote:
Wouldn't making SB equipment kind of hard for other players to repair?


Only if you are required to transfer your equipment to another player's inventory before it can be repaired.

I doubt SE will set up the system this way for obvious reasons.


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#44 Sep 03 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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hmmm.

I don't think the value-less tradeskills in WoW nessisarily relates to soulbound gear.

The trouble with crafting in WoW is, there are few things of actual economic value that can be made. The fact the leveling process is treated as a kind of extended tutorial keeps the lower-tier recipes from being viable, coupled with a content patch every few months completely overhauling each class's end-game gear sets, and the gnawing truth that anything in a crafter's recipe list just can't hold a candle to it, makes most gear created by crafting without value.

Soulbinding really has no relation to this. Soulbinding helps retain the value of armor by keeping it from saturating the market. But, if the items had no value to begin with, soulbinding certainly can't help.






#45 Sep 03 2009 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
I made ridiculous amounts of money in WoW as a JC/miner

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 1:41am by shintasama
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#46 Sep 03 2009 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
On a time vs money scale, you're better off dropping mining for something like enchanting and just buying ore off the AH to prospect. You can spent 20 minutes and have all sorts of gems up and move on instead of spending hours to make a little more money. You make more money in volume with JC, and with enchanting, you can turn your green gems and some crystallized earths into jewlery which you disenchant and sell the materials.
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#47 Sep 03 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
On a time vs money scale, you're better off dropping mining for something like enchanting and just buying ore off the AH to prospect. You can spent 20 minutes and have all sorts of gems up and move on instead of spending hours to make a little more money. You make more money in volume with JC, and with enchanting, you can turn your green gems and some crystallized earths into jewlery which you disenchant and sell the materials.
Are you joking? I made ~6-700g/hr in just materials mining while I waited for people to get their **** together for naxx/os/ulduar, the actual prospecting->JC->ah usually only turned that into 550-850g depending on how lucky I was with prospects (the actual AHing of gems was probably more time consuming than mining, if I was really paying attention to $/time I should have just sold the ore/bars). Crystalized fire/earth/shadow + titanium were used to make titansteel bars (smelting/mining) for another healthy profit.
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#48 Sep 04 2009 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Rare/Ex was not always the dominating criteria for great gear.

There was a time when a lot of the great NM loot was not Rare/Ex. I actually saw it as more of a reaction to RMT than anything else. End game gear should be Rare/Ex as not doing so would completely diminish the entire point of End Game encounters, that's a given, but Leaping Boots being Rare/Ex...? Yeah.

When looking back, the decision to introduce BCNMs and make all regularly camped NMs drop Rare/Ex loot completely changed the face of the game. I do not miss the Argus camp back in the day when there were honestly at least 25-30 botters stuffed in that room, however there was absolutely nothing as exasperating as getting a claim from them. The same applies to trying desperately to keep claim on Lord O as a BST duo with 10 RMT chasing you while pet swapping.

This is not even mentioning what that decision did to the economy.

For FFXIV all I am hoping is a crafting system that actually allows you to make gear at a pace that parallels your progression in the game. In FFXI as a new player the ability to level say Clothcraft with the means to provide yourself with new gear that matches your progression is impossible. What Rank 2 level 24WHM/12BLM newbie has Clothcraft leveled to 50 at that level?

I think there will be a tremendous emphasis on crafting this time around, especially with the mention of durability and equipment. You will have to craft or pay someone else to do it for you on a regular basis. So I would imagine that much of the gear would not be Rare/Ex just with that in mind...? Well unless if there was a way for someone to fix durability without trading it I guess, but that doesnt make sense either. Another question would be if durability is now an attribute for gear and assuming that you cannot sell gear that is not 100/100 for durability, how will that effect non-Soulbound items?

In Wow (Sorry) you can just hit the Repair button and watch the money sink go into overdrive. However repairing gear seems to be a microenonomy based on player skills this time around. I am curious on how that is going to work. Does someone click on your Soulbound gear to fix it? Who knows.
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#49 Sep 04 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure I remember correctly, but I think Lineage II had an interesting system. Basically, every weapon could be upgraded (think augmenting, but controllable by the player, not random) via crafting, but with every upgrade did, there was a chance the weapon will break in the process.

In fact, I think this was one of the things SE tried to accomplish in FFXI by the augment system. Make some of the gear on the market disappear. You get your armor, try to augment it, if the augments are bad, you throw it away. For some gear I guess it works, but for the most valuable one it doesn't, since the process being completely random, it discourages people to even try it on expensive items.

Now think of it this way (Lineage 2). You have your Hauby and you can add +1 STR and +1 Acc on it, but you have 5% chances to break it in the process. Do you try? Let's say you try and you succeed. You can try again, for another +1 STR and +1 Acc, but this time the chance of breaking is 10%. And so on. It's a bit like a Black Jack. Hit or stay? You may bust! :) The system could be quite interesting, I think as it could create a lot of variations and also get rid of equipment from the market. Of course, it can be tuned/adjusted etc. The main thing is to give the player a CLEAR (not random) incentive to risk his gear. And I think a lot of people would take that risk, with benefits for the economy.

-Hauby
#50 Sep 04 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Default
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
StrijderVechter wrote:

World of Warcraft's soulbound system actually ends up helping the crafting market more than people think, whereas Final Fantasy XI ends up hindering it. Outgrowing gear issues aside per expansion, WoW's soulbound system basically ensures that there is almost always a demand for certain items. Even as we speak now, there's still demand for the very first craftable items in the current expansion, and the price on most items haven't really degenerated all that much.


Having items be able to be turned into materials also makes sure items always have worth and takes items out of circulation. It's a much more elegant solution than this entirely unrealistic idea that you can not hand your armor over to someone else. It also makes sure that materials are cheaper and in circulation than otherwise.


Yes, because it's completely realistic that a Galka handing a chestpiece to a Tarutaru should fit, and vice versa. Riiiiiiiiiight.

StrijderVechter wrote:
Ensuring that once someone equips an item it can't be traded to someone else boosts the chance of a crafter being able to sell an item; WoW excels at this and FFXI does not. Is that to say that FFXI's crafting system fails? No, it doesn't (personally I say yes, because it's horribly implemented, but that's an opinion), but ultimately there will never be as huge of a chance to completely earn your living in crafting in FFXI as there is in WoW. Can you still make it happen in FFXI? Yes, but only in *very* select markets.


digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
You would think it increases demand, but it just doesn't. If you play WoW, crafted items aren't in very high demand at all because people can just get stuff from instances, so why pay for something that you will get NO return value out of (unless you can disenchant, then you get a little). No, people would rather stick with drops.

Nobody earns their living crafting items in WoW, and if someone claims that I have to question their familiarity with the game. People do make money by crafting certain consumables, or materials, but people 'earn their living' by doing daily quests, normal quests, etc. Nobody makes their living by selling powerful gear.


Maybe if you're stuck in Burning Crusade mode, or on a terrible server, then no, you're not going to make money by crafting. But on Cenarius, crafting makes money on any profession. Yes, jewelcrafting is king much like it was in TBC, but all of them have a place. Tailoring has bags and leg enchants, leatherworking has leg enchants, blacksmithing has the belt buckles, and everything aside from Engineering (it's the "fun" profession) has the ability to make epic gear that is *STILL* in demand (and was for each era of the game) as well as now a full set of PvP gear that still sells well to get people a leg in for that area of the game.

If you can't earn a living from crafting in WoW, you're not doing it correctly. That's a user error, not a game flaw.

Claim my unfamiliarity with the game all you wish. I run a raiding guild that's cleared everything up to Twins in heroic 25 ToC at the moment. I know I've *personally* made at least half a million gold from selling items I can make from epic crafting blacksmithing since this expansion alone. No one pays for repairs in the guild, and all consumables are provided for.

If you can't do it, you're the one that's wrong, not the game.

StrijderVechter wrote:
Personally, I'd say keep the soulbound/Rare-EX system and expand it even further. Too much gear was able to be traded after its prime for a person, could be resold, and the price continually went down -- ultimately it just hurts the crafters in the end. As fuzzy as a "happy" many people may like the ability to resell their gear, that action is actually what ends up harming the balance in the end and continually drives prices further down, and dissuades people from crafting (who otherwise may have enjoyed the profession) simply because they don't see the use when their craft's items are flooded constantly.


digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Its not a bad thing for cheap gear to be cheap. It causes supply and demand to have effect, something important for an economy. And, again, if there are uses for desynthing gear, it always has a base value and brings down the value of materials.

As fuzzy and "happy" many people may like the ability to not resell their gear, it just feels very contrived and is another thing that takes away the feeling of immersion, the feeling that the game world is a place. It solves problems that don't need solving. Some gear being cheap is good for the game as long as there is also more spendy gear. The trick is to find a good balance.


Yes, it is a bad thing. Not everyone plays an MMO purely for the endgame. You would be surprised how many people simply love the economical aspects of the interaction. And yes, consistently cheap gear does destroy that piece of the pie for people.

And you've made absolutely no sense in that statement. I fail to see how FFXI having cheap gear thrown around like rice in a wedding affects immersion in any way, but whatever floats your boat.

Shezard wrote:
@Streijder: Seriously...whats your point with WoW? Crafts from the start of the expansion are still desirable? Well in your world maybe...the price of the Titanium Weapons were at 3k at the start of the expansion, now they are as low as 800-1k...and the ONLY reason they are still sold, is because after you got something else/better, you can only trash it, so the Blacksmith can still sell one at some time...Gold in WoW is not earned by the "most expensive" items, but by the things that are constantly in demand, like crafting materials...still they dropped in price as well a LOT...Saronite was like 50-70g at the start of the expansion...now they are as low as 15g...

Other than that, the ONLY crafts that are desirable in WoW are the most updated recipes dropped in instances. 95% of all items a job can craft are simply to skill up. Not to mention the fact the 5% of crafts that are "good" are not needed...this is how WoW makes the crafting/economy system not existent...because it is not necessary...it gives "advantages"...but nobody needs them to progress.

FFXI was far from being "good" in the crafting system, but the aspect of the economy was much better. In fact it was an economy...items on high demand got more expensive...when the market was flooded with those items, they became cheap as ****...having a craft skilled to max actually net you profit if you were able to attain the materials yourself. But thats how its done...skilling up crafts in FFXI was a horrible thing...but actually that was something that made the crafts desirable and necessary. Ninjas needed Tools from Woodworking...imagine nobody skilling Woodworking on the server...well the whole Ninja could have been dropped dead...most equipment worn by players was crafted til they reached the R/E part of the endgame...in WoW the only people who are wearing crafted items are the ones who are too lazy, or do not have enough time to go into instances and get their drops.

Crafting and Economy is not just about availability...but also about necessity!

PS: Earn your living with crafting in WoW is the same sh*t as it is in FFXI...the only way you can really earn money is if you provide yourself with the materials...if you don't and you need to buy them from the AH, then even in WoW your "buy materials/sell item" profit is like 10% max...the only difference is getting the materials in WoW is a joke, while in FFXI it is a struggle.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 1:46pm by Shezard


No really, but if it helps your grammatically impaired self feel better, go ahead believing that. As I said above, if you personaly can't make money on crafting, find a better server, or fix that PEBKAC error.

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 9:45am by StrijderVechter
#51 Sep 04 2009 at 6:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Just one more thing that showed me you're talking BS about WoW...Cenarius is the messiah now?

Smithing makes money of the Belt sockets...lol(one of those sells for like 50G...)
Leatherworkers make money from Leg Enchants...lol²(one of those sells for around 80-100G if you're lucky)

And thats not just on my old server, but on most if not all...

Well back to topic...Belt sockets and Leg Enchants are only bought by people if they got a new Belt or Leg Equip...which I can assure you only happens on new Raid IDs on Wednesday/Thursday...in europe at least, Tuesday/Wednesday in US I guess then. If you're LUCKY you can sell like 5-10 in one week of those w/o dumping the price to low...as there are like 100 other players(and thats understated...) that try to sell them as well.

The ONLY real profitable craft in WoW since TBC is and probably will be for a while, Jewelcrafting...
Just for the fact, Gems are the only thing that are needed like a lot...because it doesn't require someone to get a new belt, or a new leg equip...just any equip with a socket will do. And since ToC every piece of item has a socket or two...(one **** gem sells for like 50-150G...)

PS: Wow ToC HC clear up to Twins...so guess what, Twins are the first real "challenging" encounter in ToC HC...if you want to state something about your "skill" in WoW, rather tell me how far you've been in TBC before the 30% nerf and how far you've been with Ulduar HMs before ToC normal came out...then talk again...

Just on a side note...if you took your time to see where I come from...you would have noticed that I am not an english native speaker, hence I don't care if some sentences are gramatically incorrect...I am not a genius in english. But "flaming at grammar or typos" is the first step to ring hollow...

PS²: One more thing...if you can't make money out of crafts...find another server...lol thats one of the most stupid things you could say...why should I change the server because of the generally crap economy in WoW, if I can just stay with my friends/Guildmembers and be among the top of the server? I quit WoW though, but I wouldn't have changed the server by any means, other than friends changing server as a whole or my guild breaking up, which neither would have happened...my guild exists since Classic WoW now...

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 2:04pm by Shezard
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