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#1 Aug 27 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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From reading about the no leveling system, but a system where your skill goes up with the use of a weapon, I am wondering if it made anyone else here think of SWG before they changed the game?

And what I am really wondering will the game be more of a sandbox type game rather then the normal type MMO we see now where everything is separated by levels?

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#2 Aug 27 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was expecting a mithra bathroom joke :/


but yeah, it didn't remind me of SWG's leveling before, but now that you mention it, it kinda does weapon wise. Can you refresh me on how armor/hp worked in that game?

Edited, Aug 27th 2009 1:18pm by shintasama
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#3 Aug 27 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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God I wish I could remember it was so long ago, and I only played for a few months until FFXI came out.
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#4 Aug 27 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually think in one of the interviews, they said that the whole no level system and the 4 different job types makes for a really open game where you choose what sort of things you want to do...

If I remember correctly I think they might have used the term "sandbox", I'm not sure though.
#5 Aug 27 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Their whole system is pretty sandboxy looking so far but they seem to be pulling back just before makeing it a real sandbox game.

#6 Aug 27 2009 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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The entire FF series has been based around a storyline driven RPG, the exact opposite of a true sandbox. The world may be more open and progression may be a lot less linear, giving it a more sandbox feel, but it won't be a true sandbox game.
#7 Aug 27 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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What would exactly describe as a "sandbox" game though?
I think it will be a very open ended game as you really get to choose what sort of skill you want to level.

Although the levelling will be linear, the amount of character-defining choices that you make are pretty vast, giving it the "sandbox" feeling that you are really in control of who your character is and thier story etc.
#8 Aug 27 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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This will be a very hybeadised game, they have already stated there will be some kind of "endgame" and that there will be a story driving the world and and character progression. Ontop of that they are looking at the old moghouse system for character houseing, no matter how they tweek it it's not the same as an actual house placed in the world.

However unlike "themepark" games, the skill gain system allows for a more natual feeling progression. Without "jobs" or "classes" as defined by games like WoW you actualy get to choose what you want to be instead of letting them tell you who you can be.


In a way I look at this game as a "what would happen if FFXI and the old UO had kids" situation. Maybe not my idea of the best of both worlds but it might just be able to trancend both and be a truely great game.
#9 Aug 27 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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ppoponon wrote:
What would exactly describe as a "sandbox" game though?


A true sandbox game is a go anywhere, do anything game with no linear storyline progression, no linear questline progression and no endgame. Basically a game with no game designed goals.

Basically, if the game gives you a set order of how to get to the next step, it's linear. if the game doesn't care how you get to the next step but tells you that you must get there, it's open ended. If the game doesn't give you a next step, it's a sandbox.

EVE Online is one of the very few Sandbox MMOs on the market. You can max out ever skill without doing a single quest, the quests are simply provided as a way to make money. If you want to spend your time as a miner, salvager, mission runner or PvPer, it doesn't matter.
#10 Aug 27 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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i remember SWG before they ruined it, and it was a lot of fun. the "leveling" structure was pretty straight forward, and you could honestly be whatever kind of hybrid you wanted. iirc, there was still the "ideal" combo which worked best, depending on what you wanted to specialize in as your main focus.

however, i'd really prefer to have at least some guidelines. the only structure i can really think of was doing the theme parks for the emprire/jabba the hut/etc.

definitely not as much space as SWG either. the worst was getting waypoints out in the middle of nowhere, and spending a lot of time on my bike driving to it. like WoW gryphon's, but you have to steer yourself.

speaking of waypoints...yay or nay? not to derail, but detour :o
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#11 Aug 27 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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speaking of waypoints...yay or nay? not to derail, but detour :o



Nay... nay... nay....

I hate waypoints, and honestly I didnt really care for teleporting in FFXI either. Although it was necessary, I think it really kills the feel of the game when instead of taking boat, airship or walking from point a to point b, you can just teleport there. Now like the crags were cool, and warp spell was cool... but warping to Aht Urgan Via South Sandy was just eh for me. I like travel and exploration in a MMO.
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#12 Aug 28 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
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To the OP:

I don't think the game itself will be "sandbox" you might have differnt options how to develop your character. Whether it's open world grp hunts, solo guildleves, or something inbetween.
I have a feeling it's sandboxed on how you want to progress. Will there be character limitations? From a balance standpoint there will have to be. Otherwise you'll have uber characters that are able to everything at once. DD Tank and Heal.
A lot of people are speculating that gear will provide or have unlockable skills. So you'll be able to customise (sandbox) what you are by what you're wearing. As long as it's unswitchable during combat some balance can be established. SO maybe we'll be seeing weapons and gear that are no doubt built for a specific roll. Like Paladin: High Def low magic abilities, but other items might possess skills that are hybrid, Med Def with enfeebling magic, Low Def with high DD skills. Maybe we'll see a socket system where gear teaches us abilities and those abilities once learned are socketable in other gear. So we're able to build what we want, but not be confined to a certin play type.

As far as the direction of the game I believe that we'll have set goals. i.e.
Story content.
Raid content
End game content
We'll be providied a destination by SE, but how we get there is up to us.
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#13 Aug 28 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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there was still the "ideal" combo which worked best,
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I hate waypoints, and honestly I didnt really care for teleporting in FFXI either. Although it was necessary, I think it really kills the feel of the game when instead of taking boat, airship or walking from point a to point b, you can just teleport there. Now like the crags were cool, and warp spell was cool... but warping to Aht Urgan Via South Sandy was just eh for me. I like travel and exploration in a MMO.
You have to "travel and explore" the first time you go there, it's just annoying when it takes 30min->hours to get anywhere (take it from people who played @NA PC release when there weren't even OP warps). Non-instantaneous world travel just makes it a pain in the *** to get groups of people together, decreases willingness to help others if it involves travel, and gets really boring really fast.
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#14 Aug 28 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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You have to "travel and explore" the first time you go there, it's just annoying when it takes 30min->hours to get anywhere (take it from people who played @NA PC release when there weren't even OP warps). Non-instantaneous world travel just makes it a pain in the *** to get groups of people together, decreases willingness to help others if it involves travel, and gets really boring really fast.


I was there since NA release, and PRE Aht Urgan travel was fun and reasonable to do. You had your center hub, Jeuno, and getting to some camps were hard and dangerous but it also let you know what kind of party you had before you even got to the camp. People worked well together back then, parties were balanced. Skill Chains were used and friendships were formed.

NOW its you build a party 4 melee, a bard and a rdm.... teleport out there, and spam tp moves till mob is dead. Partying lost its luster to me, same with travel. People just became so hung up on XP per hour they forgot what it was like to enjoy the smaller aspects of the game.

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#15 Aug 28 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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People worked well together back then, parties were balanced. Skill Chains were used and friendships were formed.
I feel that only one of those four things was true, and that you have bad case of "the good old days". I'm personally wasn't a big fan of "lets wait 5hrs for X jobs to appear at the same time so we can invite them, only to travel an hour+ to camp, exp for 30min, have someone need to leave, and be left with the choice of waiting another hour+ for someone else to show up (if they could even get there) or disband".

Don't get me wrong, I liked exploration (I completed "an explorer's footsteps" w/o any teleports or chocobo), but snails pace travel only exciting soo many times before it gets extremely tedious and obtrusive to gameplay. Besides, you're still free to not use the teleportation/outpost/warp points if you prefer to do so.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 1:49pm by shintasama
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#16 Aug 28 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Yep, it sounds like you're looking at the early days of the game with nostalgy sunglasses on. It really wasn't all happy times and rainbows on a field of flowers back then.
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#17 Aug 28 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I guess I never waited hours for a party because I always built my own... And I never had that LOLjob mentality. Each job has a role, and as long as that role could be done the party was a go. I main tanked on warrior subbing monk when no PLD were around, I DD on DRG after the /sam nerf and drg was the lol job... I invited that beastmaster when a dd was missing, I have had groups get chain 6 in the 50s with no refresh back when you camped in the tree fighting crabs. The people who waited for hours wanted that perfect setup.

Even today people still wait hours for the perfect setup. It hasnt changed much, the only difference is you dont have to travel anymore.
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#18 Aug 28 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
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Except the mobs are easier to kill, thus you don't need as good gear to perform well in a group, so even a little less than perfect gear is acceptable.

Oh how I remember hitting for 0's and missing 80% of the time in the 50's and getting killed by the first crab we fought because one of our DD's lacked gear X.. good times.
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#19 Aug 28 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Except the mobs are easier to kill, thus you don't need as good gear to perform well in a group, so even a little less than perfect gear is acceptable.

Oh how I remember hitting for 0's and missing 80% of the time in the 50's and getting killed by the first crab we fought because one of our DD's lacked gear X.. good times.


While I do agree with this the mobs are easier to kill now, IS it necessarily better? Do you really get that same satisfaction from killing easy X mob, then you do from taking on the challenging Y mob?

All these easier mob mentality only leads to lazy players who dont learn anything. Yes back then you had group members who didnt use food, or gear up correctly and what did you do, you kicked them. Now you have parties with people still in full AF and no one cares at all because it doesnt hurt them in any way. Making a game easier isn't always better, it just leads to an immature player base that doesn't know game mechanics or how do things a job should do. Example being, The argument that warrior is not a tank. In todays Xp party warrior is not normally used as a tank, but they if played right, and geared correctly they can be an effective tank in the case of an emergency, or in situational battles... or if your PLD or NIN gets unlucky and someone needs to save the mage.

Its the making a game easier the new age of players become lazier and no one benefits from that. After level sync how many people can say they know someone who got to level 75 only leveling in quifm island? How many end game shells took X level 75 player only to learn in the heat of battle they have no skills.

I know I'm only focusing on the bad parts of these new additions, because yes there is alot of good that came out of them. Level sync was fun for groups of friends that wanted to enjoy time leveling together but werent the same level. Easier mobs means faster xp, the lowering of Xp made people reach the end faster. But there was just as much bad as good that came from these changes and I have seen both sides of it.

But what I am originally trying to say, the harder mobs made better players, and made players who know there job and how to act under stressful hard and unexpected situations. And you know you cannot say that a player growing in todays game can do what the players who grew in the original world, or put up with the same amount of BS they did.
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#20 Aug 28 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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While I do agree with this the mobs are easier to kill now, IS it necessarily better? Do you really get that same satisfaction from killing easy X mob, then you do from taking on the challenging Y mob?


But why do mobs that you have to grind over and over again need to be challenging in the first place? I mean, if you killed one hard mob and got 2500 exp, that would be fine. But you have to kill hundreds of them, and if each fight is a struggle for that 120 exp (because someone in your party just dinged and the exp/kill took a skydive) I feel all but satisfaction from killing the crab.

I don't mind hard encounters- I actually love them, but that kind of difficulty is just brutal- especially if in most cases you can't affect the outcome yourself. While you have the necessary equipment and skill to kill the mob, the other guy in the party may not have them, so there's not much you could do about it if you wipe.

I'd argue that having bad gear or skill doesn't hurt those players in any way- the difference is that it doesn't make the party completely unable to perform if someone lacks one or the other. Still, those players suck and I'd rather kick them than play with them, but if there's no one around to replace them with, I can still get exp and the party won't disband because that guy is pulling everyone down.

I realize that the additions we got since ToAU brought in a lot of unexperienced players, but I only saw huge benefit from the changes (being the leader most of my playtime in parties too, the less headache I got the better my experience was.. and those changes affected just that, it made my time as a leader easier more than anything).

While harder mobs made better players, it doesn't mean that it's really better for the game and players. As for myself, I'd rather deal with less BS and enjoy my time even if it means playing with less skillful/well geared players in the process.


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#21 Aug 28 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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While I do agree with this the mobs are easier to kill now, IS it necessarily better? Do you really get that same satisfaction from killing easy X mob, then you do from taking on the challenging Y mob?
I don't think "Y taking longer to kill because the player doesn't do as much dmg compared to the mobs total health" necessarily makes Y more challenging, it just makes exping on Y boring and requires resting (which is itself also boring) every X kills. I know a MNK that would read books while he partied back in the day and only look up to target the next mob when he heard the puller's <call>. Meriting today is much more exciting, you're constantly looking for/positioning to get ready to kill the next monster, juggling abilities, and with the amounts of haste/acc we have access too you can be WS/SCing every couple seconds if you are geared right. I feel maximizing your dmg now takes way more skill than "wait till you and that other DD have TP, WS/wait 3 seconds after his WS then WS, go back to waiting for tp" like we used to put up with.

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Now you have parties with people still in full AF and no one cares at all because it doesnt hurt them in any way.
It does hurt them because you'll be killing slower, I think people are just less **** now.
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In todays Xp party warrior is not normally used as a tank
Your view may be different since you were a WAR, but my parties back then never used WAR as a tank past citadel. Now w/ retaliation I see it used occasionally as a main tank for events, or more often as a semi-tank/first-voke to avoid puller getting mauled before the DD get shared hate.

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Its the making a game easier the new age of players become lazier and no one benefits from that. After level sync how many people can say they know someone who got to level 75 only leveling in quifm island? How many end game shells took X level 75 player only to learn in the heat of battle they have no skills.
There were plenty of lv75 morons who didn't know their jobs back then too, it's less to do with the style of the game and more to do with the fact that some people are just idiots. I actually personally don't know anyone who leveled only in qufim, but a couple players with SMN burn jobs I know aren't bad at their jobs b/c honestly it's not that hard to play this game. I've taken over for players on jobs/roles I've never played and done fine with little to no learning period.
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#22 Aug 28 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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I have to agree with Oddler... I started at the NA ps2 release and loved every minute of the game. I probably went overboard with the amount of time I spent playing it but meh :P I remember parties being fun when people had to skillchain and MB to kill mobs faster. with the change to 4x melee, rdm and brd parties always seemed like work to me. it's not fun and doesn't take skill to hit a WS macro and move yourself to see the next mob faster. perhaps I'm just getting too old, but I do enjoy teamwork in online games.

since the release of ToAU I have "quit" ffxi 3 times. mostly due to me leveling a new job and having so many parties with complete retards. disliking the way people party now and then throwing on 1-3 retards per party makes for a horrible experience. of course the actual in game experience points were still just as good as you used to get in a sky party with tank, whm, blm, refresh, melee x2. I know there was a point before ToAU came out that you could actually start partying with people who knew what they were doing, usually post 40 when people weren't all "Oh this is just my subjob I could give 2 sh*ts how I level it just so I get to 37"

I quit again ~2 months ago because it was getting so bad. there was not one party I had from 50-75 THF that did not contain at least one complete idiot. ranging from people botting in exp parties (this happened a lot :/), to full AF at 70+, to breaking a latent weapon and crying because no one will SC with them. perhaps I'm just horribly unlucky, but I don't think one person can have that much bad luck. I blame it on how easy it is to get to 75 now. I am looking forward to ffxiv, but if it's as easy as XI is now I don't see myself staying long.

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There were plenty of lv75 morons who didn't know their jobs back then too, it's less to do with the style of the game and more to do with the fact that some people are just idiots.

There's always idiots in games but anyone who's been around since the NA release and got to 75 the hard way will agree that the amount of idiots today compared to then at 75 is astonishing. working a little harder/longer for something is rarely a bad thing

(lol@the direction this thread went >.>)
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#23 Aug 28 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think "Y taking longer to kill because the player doesn't do as much dmg compared to the mobs total health" necessarily makes Y more challenging, it just makes exping on Y boring and requires resting (which is itself also boring) every X kills. I know a MNK that would read books while he partied back in the day and only look up to target the next mob when he heard the puller's <call>. Meriting today is much more exciting, you're constantly looking for/positioning to get ready to kill the next monster, juggling abilities, and with the amounts of haste/acc we have access too you can be WS/SCing every couple seconds if you are geared right. I feel maximizing your dmg now takes way more skill than "wait till you and that other DD have TP, WS/wait 3 seconds after his WS then WS, go back to waiting for tp" like we used to put up with.


I don't know about you, but it sounds like that MNK friend of yours could probably made the party 10X better if he did more then read a book while playing.

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Your view may be different since you were a WAR, but my parties back then never used WAR as a tank past citadel. Now w/ retaliation I see it used occasionally as a main tank for events, or more often as a semi-tank/first-voke to avoid puller getting mauled before the DD get shared hate.


It was after crawlers nest I did less of the tanking as WAR... but try to get warriors to tank at all now. I remember when I was leveling everything for my maats cap, I got into an argument with a warrior about tanking in the Jungles against mandies. a MNK/WAR could tank mandies, and a WAR/MNK useing a great axe is probably the best tank on them due to the fact when counter kicks in it shows.


And I am Happy see see Cadant sees this the same way I do, least i know I'm not crazy now. And yeah this xp was possible pre Aht Urgan, you just needed a balanced party, with skill chains and magic bursts and players that knew what to do.... I miss Sky Parties on my SMN...
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#24 Aug 28 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about you, but it sounds like that MNK friend of yours could probably made the party 10X better if he did more then read a book while playing.
not really, MNK/WAR basically amounted to:

1) Use focus/berserk if they're up (once every 5 min)
2) press WS macro 3s after hearing the other person's macro <call>
3) wait/autoattack

not a lot of skill involved there, dmg doesn't increase 10x just because you stare at the screen while you wait

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Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#25 Aug 28 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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actually any mnk worth a **** is probably pulling hate therefore he can counterstance, dodge, defender, or even turn around if hes being a mp sponge :P
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#26 Aug 28 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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actually any mnk worth a **** is probably pulling hate therefore he can counterstance, dodge, defender, or even turn around if hes being a mp sponge :P




Agreed.
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#27 Aug 28 2009 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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Cadant wrote:
actually any mnk worth a **** is probably pulling hate therefore he can counterstance, dodge, defender, or even turn around if hes being a mp sponge :P
Not while overcamping they're not (remember I'm talking 2004, not now)

I was a PLD back then, even turtleing it was ridiculously easy to keep hate compared to now.
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
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