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#1 Aug 28 2009 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I've seen a lot of people say that they don't like instances. I would like to know what it is you don't like about it.


Is it something you don't like for specifik instances or just something in general?

Maybe the concept of what an instance is, is different among people?

Hatred for the term because it's used a lot in relation to WoW?

What?
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#2 Aug 28 2009 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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People dislike instances used in the way Guild Wars used it.
That is to say, everything except towns are instanced.

I dislike Instances aside from common-sense applications such as Dynamis, because if I'm playing an MMO, I want lots of interaction with other players.

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#3 Aug 28 2009 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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So running an instance with a group of people is not your idea of interaction with other players?
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#4 Aug 28 2009 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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i really enjoyed instances in wow and lotro. it was a great way to meet new people in pick up groups. and was a ton of fun to do with people from your guild. i always though ffxi was missing that. they have a few with dynamis, mmm, and assualt etc. but the feeling of any of these in ffxi just isn't as relaxed or fun.

it seems as though the guildleves system makes instances for your party personally, while you are still running around with other people fighting regular mobs. it sounds like the best of both worlds, fun instances with the ability to interact with all players.
#5 Aug 28 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
So running an instance with a group of people is not your idea of interaction with other players?

It's just not as fun. I really enjoyed leveling out in the world in FFXI. It was chaotic, sometimes frustrating, and mostly awesome thanks to the dynamics between the groups. It was...unpredictable and thus more exciting.

Valkurm Dune, Crawler's Nest, Yuhtunga Jungle,...man, those were the days :P
#6 Aug 28 2009 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
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I think the stigma towards the word "Instance" is due to the comments from Gamescon that suggested that Guild Leves are going to be instanced, somewhat suggesting that the quest-based outside world will be instanced to you and/or your group. This worked well for Guild Wars with limited server capabilities considering it's a free-to-play game, but for a game that's going to have international servers backed by a large company like SE and be pay-to-play...the idea seems like a shortcut and a move away from the "MMO" aspect that is traditional to open world progression.

In FFXI, Dynamis was really the primary "Instance" comparison, whereas in games like LotRO and WoW, Instances are the primary means to group progression but with an open world. I can understand SE's idea of removing open world competition for quest Mob's and HNM, etc., but it really kills the open world feeling if they primary world you quest in is instanced like Guild Wars.

We don't really know enough yet to be overly concerned, because it might be a hybrid element. For instance (no pun intended), if you get a group and get into what is considered an EXP party to level and/or quest...I think SE's looking to reduce competition that makes doing so so time consuming and competitive. How they do this, we won't know until more information is available. We're going off one or two sentences from interviews right now.

But the attitude towards people discussing "Instancing" needs to get a little less hostile. The OP's question was legit and open for discussion and he's being rated down for no reason. Give it a break.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 9:31am by Ryneguy
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#7 Aug 28 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Default
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Well I wasn't aware of the fact that they wanted the whole world instanced. It would be hard to make friends that way for sure.

When I think of instances I think of dynamis, bcnm, enm, mission fights, einherjar, limbus, etc. Which to me always were nice ways to bound with the linkshellmembers.

The only solo instance I can think of is the Mog House. I don't think there is anyone that hates their Mog House?

I guess SE just shouldn't go overboard with what they can instance.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 4:43pm by RedGalka
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#8 Aug 28 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For instance (no pun intended), if you get a group and get into what is considered an EXP party to level and/or quest...I think SE's looking to reduce competition that makes doing so so time consuming and competitive.

I truly believe that this is the direction they are headed in. Instances will be limited to the Guild Leves (formerly known as exp parties) and events like Dynamis. HELM type of activities will still exist and I feel that if it is instanced, it will ruin the experience there too (which could be why MMM never really took off in that regard).

Camping and Farming NMs for drops or pop items were one of the good things about FFXI if you had enough time to participate and I fully expect them to mimic that. What's the point of claiming you have an open world if even walking out of town puts you in an instance. I've never played GW, but I don't see the point of having an MMO with no competition in any area at all. I would imagine they would have said it was a "fully instanced environment" or something along those lines if they planned to make a change that drastic. I don't even see the point in having more than one incredibly large town if you plan on doing something like that.

If SE can excel at anything, it is definitely providing the players with a healthy variety. Imagine an XI world with no more fighting for camp sites, no more lockouts for Dynamis, etc.
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#9 Aug 28 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I dislike instances because I want the world to be one big open world, npt multiple parallel worlds. If I want to go see someone fight a big dragon or whatnot, I want to be able to do it.
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#10 Aug 28 2009 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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But what if 1000 people want to fight a big dragon and only one spawns once a week?
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#11 Aug 28 2009 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I dislike instances because I want the world to be one big open world, npt multiple parallel worlds. If I want to go see someone fight a big dragon or whatnot, I want to be able to do it.


Same here, I dislike instances for a number of reasons, but I also think instances should be in the game on certain events. I like the feeling of going to a place and not knowing who i'm going to walk across. This gives you the feeling of being in an actual world. Kind of like, if you go to a store (in real life), you will meet tons of different people everytime you walk in. Everytime you go anywhere, you will meet a number of random people and that gives you a real type of feeling.

I think instances (if the game is built only or mostly on instances) takes the "mmo" out of the game. It makes the game turn into just an online rpg, and not massively multiplayer. Instances create a narrow world and narrow and massively are complete opposite words in regards to games. An mmo, is an massively multiplayer game that involves people playing together, whether that be PvP or Pve. This is why halo (games with a large online base), are not considered mmos, because they do not play together. Now halo, usually has 500,000 players online, but theres a difference between a large online base and actually playing together. Hence why these games are just called regular games with an online mode and mmos are called "mmos". An mmo that is focused mainly on instances, then turns to just an online game with a large online base and not an mmo.

That being said, I do think some instancing should be involved in "mmos" on some events. That last paragraph was focusing on if the game was solely instanced, or mainly focused around instancing.

Quote:
So running an instance with a group of people is not your idea of interaction with other players?


No, its a reason why I pay a subscription fee to play an "mmo". I could play a regular game with an online mode to interact with 30-60+ people and not pay every month. The reason why some people pay to play these games are because they are "mmos" and not just a game with an huge online base. I already stated what the difference was in the above paragraph, so I won't say much else here.



Edited, Aug 28th 2009 12:17pm by HocusP
#12 Aug 28 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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But what if 1000 people want to fight a big dragon and only one spawns once a week?

Then it should take all 1000 people to kill it.

Seriously, some 24 hour world spawns I can still see as acceptable. I don't think I could take anymore 2-3+ day spawns without requiring a massive amount of people so that these mobs would pretty much be left alone until your group has enough people available to get the job done. The items they drop shouldn't be AH-able at all (maybe even BoP in order to prevent RMT from monopolizing).

Might as well just have an instance you can only run once a week or every 3+ days with a low drop rate if that's the case.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 9:20am by sixgauge
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#13 Aug 28 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
But what if 1000 people want to fight a big dragon and only one spawns once a week?


Then you wait your turn. It sucks camping a NM, and sucks even more if you lose out. But having non-instanced worlds builds better communities IMO. thats 1000 people who will all be gathered together in a single area forming friendships, grudges, allies and foes. Not 1000 people divided into groups playing in thier own world.
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#14 Aug 28 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's some thoughts on instancing vs. live, open world with respect to FFXIV (and somewhat my hopes).

I can understand Guild Leves being instanced. I would imagine they'll feel like the BCNM battles from FFXI in that they'll be out of the open-world environment, and in FFXIV tied to a quest NPC that requires a return item and/or proof of success to complete the quest. Logical, thoughtful, and useful.

HNM's and NM's are a sticky situation. There is (arguably) people in FFXI that both detest and love this system. The only problem that's been universally hated is HNM's on long timers that are camped by Bot/RMT groups (ie. old Sky spawn drops would be farmed by RMT). This made it hard for progression LS's to farm the spawn drops for their own attempts at Gods. In fact, RMT and Bots were always the problem with these rare spawns in that people using 3rd party app pull botting had an advantage to provoke/pulling the mobs before client side apps (ie. your PC's) even rendered them.

I'm sure SE has seen their fair share of complaints over the years with FFXI on stuff like this, and I'm sure they're figuring out a way to reduce the problems that become so abundant in FFXI. However, I'm wondering just where the open world environment is going to be. They haven't stated if Exp groups are going to be feasible (ie. is Guild Leve and weapon use the only progression opportunities?), so we're sitting on a open wound waiting for an answer.

I personally would like to see the following:
- Area's similar to Sky/Dynamis/etc. (ie. end-game) be partially open world*
- Guild Leves are instanced (only while actively on the Guild Leve)
- Traditional groups still possible in open world (ie. spawn camping for skill or formerly known as Exp)
- Transportation (ie. portal) services only applicable to Guild Leves and not used in open world for exploits
- Solo spawn camping possible for farming/skilling purposes with less "gain" that traditional groups (to retain group value)

*When I say "partially", I mean this. We'll use Sky as an example. When in "Sky", you're open world, and free to take out the HNM's and/or NM's that hold spawn items. They would need to have a better respawn timer, and this is something that SE could adapt to using coded technology like what is present in WoW post expansion where kill rate and zone population dictate spawn rate in real time to ensure spawns are at least appropriate (to some degree) to handle the current farm rate, but not so often that it's completely exploited. They could also make such items Rare/Ex so they cannot be traded. Then area's that house the actual Gods be instanced so that you go in with your group, spawn items in hand, spawn 'em and take 'em down. This removes the possibility of another group interfering with your encounter, but only the encounter itself and not the efforts leading up to it. This removes the Griefing tactics.

Otherwise, the world should be totally open-world. Cities, outdoor areas, etc.
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#15 Aug 28 2009 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
But what if 1000 people want to fight a big dragon and only one spawns once a week?


Then you wait your turn. It sucks camping a NM, and sucks even more if you lose out. But having non-instanced worlds builds better communities IMO. thats 1000 people who will all be gathered together in a single area forming friendships, grudges, allies and foes. Not 1000 people divided into groups playing in thier own world.



Personally, I'd prefer the "grudges" and "foes" aspect to be left to some optional PVP activity. Call me a hippie or whatever, but I'm more into cooperative play than competitive. I just don't see how all the Aery Wars really served to make anything better except maybe the botting programs. It actually was very divisive and definitely wasn't all in good fun. We weren't all in our own worlds. Instead it was us against the world.

As far as instancing, I think the main world should be open but dungeons, events, raids, bosses, etc. should be instanced. I'd love to have instanced dungeon runs with bosses at the end just like the old Final Fantasies. Something a bit more inspired than Dynamis statues and Salvage Chariots would be nice of course.
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#16 Aug 28 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Guild Leves aren't in any way "formerly known as experience parties". I think exp parties will still exist, because there are monsters out in the open world that you can engage in battle with. I think Guild Leves will be instanced (perhaps not all of them) but regular exp parties will have competition amongst other parties if they so wish to party in the open world. Perhaps its your choice whether to party or quest for experience points, which gives you a variety of options to choose from. Either this, or this is wishful thinking on my part, but I hope they haven't done away with exp parties all together. I like grouping with other people and fighting challenging monsters.
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#17 Aug 28 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I also dislike instances. I've played Diablo and Hellgate: London, where everything outside the chatroom/town is instanced. This type of gameplay is not as fun or interactive as having an open world.

Some of my fondest memories of FFXI are from times when I've run into random people that happen to be in the same area that I'm in. When I first leveled in Koncshtat Highlands with a group as level 9, a random Mithra who was running by decided to help PL us and protect us from Gobs. When I was a level 30 warrior a random JPN player in the area (Davoi) helped me unlock Paladin. When I became a higher level player, I would return the favor by protecting people in Valkrum Dunes or Yuhtunga Jungle when I'm in the area. I'm sure I'm not the only person with these types of memories. With everything instanced there will be no random help and no random conversations from a passerby.

Yes, there are issues with overly camped areas and HNMs/NMs. But things can be adjusted to avoid those issues. I like what Ryneguy said:

Quote:
They would need to have a better respawn timer, and this is something that SE could adapt to using coded technology like what is present in WoW post expansion where kill rate and zone population dictate spawn rate in real time to ensure spawns are at least appropriate (to some degree) to handle the current farm rate, but not so often that it's completely exploited. They could also make such items Rare/Ex so they cannot be traded.


#18 Aug 28 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Guild Leves aren't in any way "formerly known as experience parties". I think exp parties will still exist, because there are monsters out in the open world that you can engage in battle with. I think Guild Leves will be instanced (perhaps not all of them) but regular exp parties will have competition amongst other parties if they so wish to party in the open world. Perhaps its your choice whether to party or quest for experience points, which gives you a variety of options to choose from. Either this, or this is wishful thinking on my part, but I hope they haven't done away with exp parties all together. I like grouping with other people and fighting challenging monsters.

Maybe I didn't explain it correctly. Think of it as using MMM as your own colibri camp, eliminating the travel time and any complications you may encounter along the way (including a full camp upon your arrival). Hopefully, there are challenging monsters in the Guildleves too. You can have your own camp to "exp" with others.

And it's no longer gaining exp to level, but gaining weapons skills.. so that's why I referred to it as formerly.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 2:13pm by sixgauge
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#19 Aug 28 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Sad thing is in WoW NMs aren't camped at all because the rewards just suck.
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