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#1 Aug 28 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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This week's Happy Friday covers both XI and XIV: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=19451
#2 Aug 28 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a ********** disgrace!

Not being able to jump that is...
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#3 Aug 28 2009 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Leave jumping for action games :D
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#4 Aug 28 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Because it hurts the knees!!
#5 Aug 28 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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You shouldn't be able walk much less jump wearing that much armor and carrying that much stuff anyways!
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#6 Aug 28 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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shintasama wrote:
You shouldn't be able walk much less jump wearing that much armor and carrying that much stuff anyways!


Not to mention having loads of extra armor and weapons in your inventory, and lots of other stuff like full-sized beds... and of course bottles of juice that apparently weigh as much as or take up as much space as a full-sized bed.
#7 Aug 28 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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I think all items and gear are stored in Poke balls or something.
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#8 Aug 28 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Taru Panic > Jump
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#9 Aug 28 2009 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've always found it funny that XI has no weight factor. It was a pain in the *** in EQ, but still funny when you were holding the guild bank and could only walk inch by inch.

Coming to XIV, stackable juice in the form of an ice chest item!
#10 Aug 28 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm fine with jumping as long as it's limited to particular situations. ****, let us climb rope and ladders and slide down chutes while we're at it.
#11 Aug 28 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Well thank god for that, jumping blows.
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#12 Aug 28 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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meh, jumping is for chumps... well actually... i just don't really see the point in an mmo really... its kinda like... oh you can jump in that mmo yay... good for you... i'm a real boy... lol its no biggy if anything its just unecessary animation and transition animations that the devs have to cram into the game.
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#13 Aug 28 2009 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm glad they won't have jumping. The Devs did mention in some of the interviews that they were interested in making Zelda-esque actions for jumping and climbing ladders and walls.
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#14 Aug 28 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Why is everyone complaining about jumping in all the equipment being unrealistic? Who cares, so many things in these games are impossible as it is. You don't see people riding giant Dodo's in the meadows of New Zealand or people casting a ball of fire at others. It's fantasy game, why worry about realism?
#15 Aug 28 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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It's this little thing called suspension of belief that is present in all stories.

But there's whole threads about this subject and the various arguments against them, so go read those instead.

Edited, Aug 28th 2009 7:22pm by Kirbster
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#16 Aug 28 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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I don't much worry about whether there is jumping or not, though it would be nice just to be able to get over those 2 inch ledges that I am apparently not able to lift my legs over.
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#17 Aug 28 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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The concern should be less about Jumping and more about being able to traverse terrain that in a real life situation is hardly a barrier at all. Monster Hunter didn't have a jump button but their were plenty of methods of getting over some barriers or climbing ledges and such. We don't need to be able to jump, their just need to allow you to leap or climb over barriers.

or they just need to make barriers that you cant climb or leap over and expect us to accept it.
#18 Aug 28 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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I've slain dragons, held back waves of beastmen... manipulated the most complex magics attainable by mortals....

Yet i cannot figure out how to get past this fallen log.


...yeap.
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#19 Aug 28 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sloannn wrote:
Why is everyone complaining about jumping in all the equipment being unrealistic? Who cares, so many things in these games are impossible as it is. You don't see people riding giant Dodo's in the meadows of New Zealand or people casting a ball of fire at others. It's fantasy game, why worry about realism?


Despite the fact that many people fall back on this line of thinking whenever anyone brings up "realism" or "believability" with regard to a fantasy world, it is nevertheless a flawed argument; I will attempt to explain.

"Dodos in New Zealand" are not possible only because there aren't dodos in New Zealand. This simple fact does not, however, eliminate the realism or believability of an animal existing in another world. Final Fantasy XIV does not take place in New Zealand and, as such, can believably, realistically, plausibly have whatever wildlife or phenomina exist, provided they come with adequate explanation.

Various creatures inhabit the FFXIV world, creatures who, upon the land, likely breathe Oxygen due to the presence of trees, and plants which grow as our familiar Earth plants do. It is a world with air and sky, with weather - an atmosphere as we know it - with water and gravity; most things operate in Erozea as they do on Earth, just with an alternate ecosystem. It is entirely plausible and defensible that different species of animals, be they Lalafel or Dodo, can exist in an alternate world, as they operate according to alternate laws.

Thus, when somebody mentions that "carrying fifty beds does not make sense in FFXI," they are correct: according to the physical laws set in place in FFXI, Vana'diel's forms of matter operate almost exactly as ours do, in that they maintain functionally constant shapes, sizes, forms, and weights and are subject to a seemingly exact Earthen gravity. If matter could be re-sized in Vana'diel, it would makes sense that such a quantity could be carried by one person, but as it has never been addressed within the world itself, and given all the applicable commonalities with Earth, it is nonsensical that such a feat can occur - and further, nonsensical that stepping over a fence, traveling underwater, and many other similar instances are likewise impossible within Vana'diel.

To conclude, the concept of realism still readily applies to fantasy worlds. If there was no realism, the world would be completely unfathomable, operating by inconsistent physical laws and scattered with matter that shifted without any predictable pattern into shapes we could not even see. Therefore, when someone says that "something" does not make sense within the confines of a certain fantasy world, it is necessary to examine whether said "something" is plausible within the world in which it exists, not on Earth, where it obviously does not.
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#20 Aug 28 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why is everyone complaining about jumping in all the equipment being unrealistic? Who cares, so many things in these games are impossible as it is. You don't see people riding giant Dodo's in the meadows of New Zealand or people casting a ball of fire at others. It's fantasy game, why worry about realism?



I know people throw around the term "game design 101" and it gets taken in this very unpleasant sort of way. In an effort to undermine the potential perceived snarkiness of my explanation, I'll instead reference Game Design Theory and Practice by Richard Rouse III.

"A potential downside to having a realistic world is that, since the game mimics a reality players are familiar with, players will expect certain world elements to work in certain ways and will be very quick to notice when something fails to do so. For example, many of the early first-person shooters, such as Doom and Marathon, did not allow the player character to jump. The worlds of these first person shooters were more "realistic" than those games players were accustomed to finding in computer games, so that players' expectations were raised and many were quick to complain that they could not jump over even waist-high obstacles."

The reason people are complaining now, as opposed to the RPGs of pixel yesteryear, is that graphics have reached a level of realism that juxtaposes with your inability to jump or swim so badly it's become comical. Genre, really has nothing to do with it.

"At the same time, players are particular about the type of reality-based improvements they want in their games...In the end, most players only want more realism if it means they get to do more interesting and fun things, not if it makes their game experiences more frustrating."

Holding a refrigerator's worth of juice bottles in our multitude of invisible backpacks is a type of non-realism we can forgive, because the alternative is either boring or cumbersome, and this is a game afterall.


Edited, Aug 29th 2009 12:56am by Zemzelette
#21 Aug 28 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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EbenezerSpooge wrote:
I'm fine with jumping as long as it's limited to particular situations. ****, let us climb rope and ladders and slide down chutes while we're at it.


This will prob be the case, they got rid of zoning. I don't care about jumping much, it would be nice but not that big of a deal. I do want them to add swimming especially with what they want to do with Professions and Discipline of the Land, Fisherman deep diving for bottom dwelling catch. I do hope they add swimming, there would be so much they could do.
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#22 Aug 28 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know, I'd be happy with a little hop, just so I could get past a rock here and there. I don't need full blown WoW jumping.
#23 Aug 29 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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You know, I'd be happy with a little hop, just so I could get past a rock here and there. I don't need full blown WoW jumping.


I could jump around for half an hour in WoW and not be bored, what's wrong with that? Smiley: lol I play Spyro almost exclusively by holding square and x.

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I've always found it funny that XI has no weight factor.


Weeellll, there are some doors in quicksands that required two peoples, three if tarutaru only, or one galka.
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#24 Aug 29 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't need full blown WoW jumping.


Seriously, that "full blow jumping2 is one of the reason that got me to play WoW now, next to Mounts but still.

Sadly the community sucks ballz and can't even come close to FFXI community but after so many years it's nice to have a change for a while.
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#25 Aug 29 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Auftragskiller wrote:

Seriously, that "full blow jumping2 is one of the reason that got me to play WoW now, next to Mounts but still.

Sadly the community sucks ballz


If "jumping really high" and "cosmetic mounts" are your two most determining factors in MMO selection, then I find your priorities somewhat out of order.
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#26 Aug 29 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I play Spyro


...

You are dead to me.
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#27 Aug 29 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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...

You are dead to me.


Well, spyro has been dead to me since the first ps2 release. Also, GIVE ME BACK MY FACE
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#28 Aug 29 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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If "jumping really high" and "cosmetic mounts" are your two most determining factors in MMO selection, then I find your priorities somewhat out of order.


It's not jumping high it is to say it in other words, the many different options to travel there.

For example in FFXI you're on a Chocobo and see someone in trouble. Always the first thing I thought about was "how long is it to the next chocobo?" and that shouldn't really something in your mind when you see someone in trouble in a MMO.
Well, now you can have your own chocobos but I never liked to raise on an ganve up after 3-4 days.

But back to jumping, just one example why not being able to jump fails... Ordelle's Cave... Don't need to explain what I mean I think^^
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#29 Aug 30 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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I've slain dragons, held back waves of beastmen... manipulated the most complex magics attainable by mortals....

Yet i cannot figure out how to get past this fallen log.


...yeap.


Pretty much. I can't imagine how anyone can pretend to argue that jumping offers no benefit. Oh look...a shin-high ledge. Guess I'll have to go around...

Oh wow! A fence that comes just up above my knees! That's friggin' huge! Guess I'd better find the gate...

Oh look! A rock! That's crazy! Better adjust my course!

Pffft.
#30 Aug 30 2009 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I noticed something while playing the new Batman game... I couldn't jump.

Funny thing is: It didn't matter, the game was still fun, and I really wasn't drawn out of the world unless I sat there and thought about how I couldn't jump as FREAKING BATMAN.

So, jumping is irrelevant as long as the gameplay doesn't require it and it doesn't draw you out of the world.

I never really thought I needed to jump in FFXI. I only ever consider it when I read threads questioning the lack of jumping.

I can't jump in Zelda... never thought about that one til now. I can't jump in any Final Fantasy either....

I guess I just don't understand the need to jump many people have. Maybe too much Halo/Mario, not enough RPG in their childhoods?
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#31 Aug 30 2009 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
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according to the physical laws set in place in FFXI, Vana'diel's forms of matter operate almost exactly as ours do, in that they maintain functionally constant shapes, sizes, forms, and weights and are subject to a seemingly exact Earthen gravity


actually in ff11, matter don't maintain it's shape or size : the same armor will fit a galka and a tarutaru, then will have a lot less cloth for a mithra.
#32 Aug 30 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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I guess I just don't understand the need to jump many people have.


It's not that a game needs jump to be fun it's like Aurelius said.

Taking my Ordelle's Cave example, it's wasting my time for nothing when I have to find the right spot for each god **** step on the stairs. Could argue that it's the terrains fault but then look at Arelius examples. It just doesn't make any sence to wasting peoples time like that. Taking longer ways when there's a fence that isn't higher then my knees.

Example from FFXI that it's dumb to not be able to jump is dragoon. Dragoons can't jump out of my monitor but when there's a little stairs, they have to run around.

Example from WoW what jump can add to the game especial endgame is new tactics like in, let's say, the endboss in "The Nexus". It opens up some new options which can't be bad for a game.
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#33 Aug 30 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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How many times in these forums does it need to be said that if a game developer does not want you to be going into an area, they WILL find a way to block it off. Jumping just means they have to make their barriers look like they are a bit taller. You are not going to suddenly discover a whole new world from being able to jump up into some place you're not meant to be.

The only reason for jumping in MMO is when it figures into the gameplay, such as combat styles. Or "jump quests" as some MMO's have, like Maple Story. Then again Maple Story is 2D and thus would be extremely boring exploring only the x axis.

I like that their are rumours of ACTION KEY I should go dig up and necro my ACTION KEY post xD. Kudos to any of my ACTION KEY fans <3 Viva la FFXIV!
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#34 Aug 30 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I guess I just don't understand the need to jump many people have. Maybe too much Halo/Mario, not enough RPG in their childhoods?


Immersion reasons:

It makes no sense to me that my character cannot jump. I can run forever, yet i cannot jump?

It makes the 3D world seem 2D.

With no jumping, also usually comes a no fall damage. How can my character fall 50 feet without feeling it (not to mention at a **** near mach 5 fall speed since with no gravity mechanic things plummet as fast as they can to the floor)?


Gameplay reasons:

It adds a level of frustration to the game when you get held up by a bump literally the height of your ankle.

It removes open end exploration and instead lends itself to pathways designed by the developers.



Your last quote is kind of rude. I am 29 years old, i grew up playing RPG's (with that being my prefered genre of game, though I do play FPS as my second favorite). You know why I want jumping? It is not because it would remind me of halo, nor is it because it would make the game more removed from my rpg childhood. It is because in a game such as this, a 3D MMORPG, it is a standard that modern games have created.

Games progress, standards get raised.
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#35 Aug 30 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: lol
It would be nice to be able to jump over a small bump in the road.
#36 Aug 30 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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All this discussion of reality and different worlds is making me think of the FF world as a parallel universe.

We could consider the Final Fantasy world(s), and all of the video game worlds, along with our 'universe' to be a collective multiverse.
Rather, several universes that, collectively, constitute "reality" in it's entirety.

But are video worlds even "reality"? A lot of people will argue that they aren't at all, someone will say they are only virtual reality, but couldn't they be a true reality? A different universe that we are given a window into.

(Especially true for MMORPGs. Are they really just virtual? After all, we are playing with real people, talking to real people, socializing with real people. Is it no different than talking on the phone? It's like a video-phone conversation with hundreds of other people. Isn't that real?)

After all, video game worlds are part of our reality. Wouldn't that make them a part of the multiverse?

Anyway, my point is this: For people who believe in multiple universes it is generally accepted that another universe can be extremely similar to ours with only a tiny minute change, or it can be so extremely different that none of the laws of physics apply. A universe could exist entirely of anti-matter. One could exist where matter doesn't have protons, or neutrons, or electrons.

The possibilities are endless.

So, when I play a video game, I am not extremely worried about realism. A game, in most cases, is supposed to provide a window into another world.
If you walked into another universe you should never expect to find that the same laws of physics apply.

Or maybe some do and some don't.
Or maybe they all do, but the world is just a different place.

And this is why so many games can be different from each other. The developers are literally creating the own worlds, each with their own laws.

Different universes are hypothesized to be different in innumerable ways from ours. How can we expect a video game world, an alternate reality by definition, to be the same?

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 1:13pm by Finaa
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#37 Aug 30 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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If there's no jump, they just need to make the terrian so you don't get stuck on small rocks or stairs. Like in Ordelle's Cave when you would run up the stairs/ramps, you'd sometimes get stuck on the steps, if there's nothing like that it shouldn't be a problem.

In LoTRO the ability to jump creates a lot of options for exploiting. Due to the fact that if a monster is attacking you, but it can't see you, it will enter anti-exploit mode; where it can't be hit, or won't hit you. Sometimes players purposely bug out adds by jumping on ledges. It creates more problems than it's worth in LoTRO.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 3:28pm by BJordan
#38 Aug 30 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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GIVE ME BACK MY FACE


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But no, you can no has. <mine>
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Aug 30 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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GIVE ME BACK MY FACE


I wondered who I stole this thing from.

But no, you can no has. <mine>


You mean you forgot? XD

It's ok, I forgot too. I was going through my PMs thanks to a =28 thread and I found the 1-3 pm long conversation we had that ended in you taking the face. lol

I think you may want to UPGRADE →→→→ 凸(●´―`●)凸
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#40 Aug 30 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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No jump? Thank ****ing God.

BJordan wrote:
If there's no jump, they just need to make the terrian so you don't get stuck on small rocks or stairs.


Exactly. Not being able to get over small bumps in the terrain is bad area design, not evidence that we need a jump button. Fix the design and you fix the need to jump.
#41 Aug 30 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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I think you may want to UPGRADE


Ohoho-- it's DOUBLE TROUBLE baby!

Now people will notice me TWICE as hard.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Aug 30 2009 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you may want to UPGRADE →→→→ 凸(●´―`●)凸
are you doing that as hard as you possibly can?
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#43 Aug 30 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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No, but I'm preparing to fire my Quad Laser.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Aug 30 2009 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe in another 3 years I'll give you the table throw face too, Smiley: lol
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#45 Aug 30 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Finaa wrote:
Different universes are hypothesized to be different in innumerable ways from ours. How can we expect a video game world, an alternate reality by definition, to be the same?

No one here has that expectation. Fictional stories still have internal realism, where events occur realistically with respect to the rules and possibilities the story has created.
#46 Aug 31 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe in another 3 years I'll give you the table throw face too,


I'll mark my calendar.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Aug 31 2009 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Nice, a 22-minute delay between doubleposts.

Gotta be a record or something.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 1:46am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Aug 31 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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GIVE ME BACK MY FACE


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#49 Aug 31 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Am I imagining this or was there a LS called Burning Legion on Valefor? Because I'm pretty sure I was in one a long time ago.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Sep 03 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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1,209 posts
Quote:
How many times in these forums does it need to be said that if a game developer does not want you to be going into an area, they WILL find a way to block it off. Jumping just means they have to make their barriers look like they are a bit taller. You are not going to suddenly discover a whole new world from being able to jump up into some place you're not meant to be.


Drill this into the **** brains of all that see it. This is the ender of the topic. the killer of the debate and all that needs to be said on this subject.

CWinther the Silent wrote:
Smiley: lol
It would be nice to be able to jump over a small bump in the road.


It would be best if the game had proper collision and you had no need to leap in air to get over a pebble.
#51 Sep 04 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
Wow, so many people are against jumping lol. It's not that serious, it'd just be nice to be able to get past that 4 inch broken pile of crap on the floor instead of having to spend 10 minutes getting around it. Maybe it's just cause I'm so used to jumping and flying around in Aion, but I always wished I could get my f'n chocobo to jump over countless branches on the floor in the past 7 years lol. Hope they at least add like an auto jump in certain spots where it's needed if it really is impossible for them to add a jump button.
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