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Will the salty side of FFX rear its head in FFXIV?Follow

#1 Aug 29 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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I'm referring to the Sphere Grid. I absolutely loved the Sphere Grid in FFX, but as anyone who's maxed out more than 2 characters begins to realize - they lose their uniqueness once everyone learns every ability. So what i have to ask is... is FFXIV going to fall into the same trap? Is it going to be so that eventually everyone is the same skill wise? I'm just wondering what they're going to do (if anything) to prevent the feeling of monotony between players after a while?

I remember hearing something about a possible seesaw mechanic (which I'm not really in favor of, I don't think degradation of skills you spent time to get is the answer).

And I'm not nitpicking or anything, just posing the question (since I have no answer for it myself).
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#2 Aug 29 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I kind of fear a similar effect myself. Of what I've seen so far the game is shaping up pretty well; however, there has been little to no mention of how we'll be able to customize our characters outside of creation. It's looking like we'll have more options as far as equipment (we'll see how that pans out), but what about traits and abilities?

There's already the implication that everyone who is wielding the same weapon will have the same abilities (if they're of the same skill). I think they recently alluded to there being different abilities based on armor as well. But it still seems very likely that at some point everyone will be nearly identical.

I'm hoping these concerns are quashed.
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#3 Aug 29 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Aye, yes yes. Does anyone know if they'll be making an appearance at PAX? Or is TGS the next time they'll be showing off their game?

Perhaps (at whichever they'll be at - I assume TGS) they'll be showcasing the battle system (much like they said they wanted to in a recent interview). And then beta soon to follow? :D
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#4 Aug 29 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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From what I've heard, I think that if FFXIV has problems with everyone being the same, it'll be in a way more similar to FFXI than FFX. That is, everyone of the same job will be identical, but outside of that there'll be plenty of variety. I imagine it'll take too much time to level multiple disciplines for everyone to have every skill, at least until many years into the game.

Of course, having everyone of the same job identical isn't a good thing either.

Quote:
There's already the implication that everyone who is wielding the same weapon will have the same abilities (if they're of the same skill). I think they recently alluded to there being different abilities based on armor as well. But it still seems very likely that at some point everyone will be nearly identical.

I've been worried about this too. In the latest interviews, they seem to be saying explicitly that you will learn abilities by raising your skill level, not just unlocking the potential to learn them as I'd hoped. So we might be back to the old "gain a level, get a skill" system that was already boring in 1990.

But still. I hated the idea of that system in FFXI, and I still do in principle, but somehow it was still compelling enough to keep me playing for a **** of a long time.
#5 Aug 29 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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From what I've heard, I think that if FFXIV has problems with everyone being the same, it'll be in a way more similar to FFXI than FFX. That is, everyone of the same job will be identical, but outside of that there'll be plenty of variety. I imagine it'll take too much time to level multiple disciplines for everyone to have every skill, at least until many years into the game.

Of course, having everyone of the same job identical isn't a good thing either.


Well, but there are two things (not to **** on your rainy day).
1) SE has already said that it won't be quite as hard to get to "cap"
2) Accessibility. In XI, you were pretty locked in to your job at least for a particular event just because you couldn't go back and change easily.

But I guess while it might not be as hard as getting a Maat's Cap to cap all of your "jobs" it could still take quite a long time. Doesn't seem like much consolation though. So if they go this route, it will almost definitely be worse than XI, and probably treading pretty close to X.

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But still. I hated the idea of that system in FFXI, and I still do in principle, but somehow it was still compelling enough to keep me playing for a **** of a long time.


I think that around the time of the release, there was still a lot of sense of wonder and exploration with the job/subjob system. A lot of players didn't really accept that there would be such stark differences in the different combinations to the point that they would be expected to have specific subs, and were even further caught off guard when they were expected to have -multiple- specific subs.

Obviously this developed from the contrast in balance between certain combinations over a period of time, but initially, people were excited about being able to be a WAR/smn, or a DRG/mnk, etc. I know many people did eventually quit because there were so many expectations to be a cookie-cutter, but the remaining playerbase eventually accepted it. Personally I always strove to be effective while remaining a bit unique.

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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#6 Aug 29 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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What's wrong with the salty side?
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#7 Aug 30 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Decent
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mystikmadness wrote:
Aye, yes yes. Does anyone know if they'll be making an appearance at PAX? Or is TGS the next time they'll be showing off their game?


I don't think SE will be at PAX, I just checked the schedule and didn't see anything about them, so I'm assuming TGS will be when they show off the game next.
#8 Aug 30 2009 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure it will take a substantially long time to "max out" every job/ability in the game, similar to taking every job in FFXI to 75 and somehow maxing out merits as well. In the meantime, new jobs, abilities, spells, quests, missions, NMs, and whatever else SE comes up with will be added to the game periodically, so the "end" keeps on getting farther away.

Also, unlike FFXII, FFX, FFVII, or any of the other games where every character can learn every ability, I'm sure that FFXIV will have some sort of limit based on the "main" job selected at the time. In those other games every character could use any ability/spell at any time, so they all became essentially the same. FFXI allowed you to level every job, learn every spell, etc, but you were limited by what your main/sub combination was so that everyone wasn't a carbon copy of everyone else.
#9 Aug 31 2009 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Well...unique-ness can only be reachable by the player "playing" unique.

In the end if someone plays the same "class/discipline" w/e as you, he will be just the same as you when you both reached max skill. The only thing that can differ yourself from others is your personal touch you give it and of course armor/looks etc.

But actually...as soon as endgame becomes a topic...everyone with a certain class will strife for the same armor...thats how it works...FFXIV won't reinvent the wheel xD
The further you will get in the game, the more similiar everyone will become^^
Though it is not really "good", its something thats hard to prevent w/o throwing over the whole endgame concept etc.

I'm fine with that, I don't expect SE to become the messiah and achieve something no one achieved(even tried to achieve??) with a "casual" MMO thats based on playing to the end and start endgame...
Games like Ultima Online have that unique-ness to their characters(though not in the looks), but on the other hand Ultima Online is REALLY an MMO ROLEPLAYING Game...there is no such thing as the ultimate armor, or the ultimate enemy to fight, you just wander through the world playing your "role". SE could do the same with FFXIV easily...but on the other hand...that's something I don't want to play xD If I would, I could play Ultima Online^^
#10 Aug 31 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are two ways to play a game. For power or for gimmicks. Sadly very few developers add much of gimmicks to players to enjoy.

Like FFXI could have had armors specifically for the WAR/WHM combo of play style, to encourage people who want to be different to play it. But instead you just got the regular "DD armors" for WAR without any intent on odd job combinations.
#11 Aug 31 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Like FFXI could have had armors specifically for the WAR/WHM combo of play style


This is too true. I really hope they accommodate all options/combinations that are possible... I mean, not to make them overpowered or anything, but to extend the roles they play in battle/crafting.

I believe this was brought up in another topic: Dual-wielding.

If you wield a sword in your main hand and then a staff in your offhand, maybe you could be a melee fighter with some dark/light magical abilities (sort of a DRK or PLD style).

Or they could do this with armor. Like if Square makes some armor that you could equip if you were wielding a spear that gave you the ability to cast Cure III if you have the full set or or something... I don't know. There's a lot of things they could do, I think.
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#12 Aug 31 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Well...unique-ness can only be reachable by the player "playing" unique.

In the end if someone plays the same "class/discipline" w/e as you, he will be just the same as you when you both reached max skill. The only thing that can differ yourself from others is your personal touch you give it and of course armor/looks etc.


That's not an inevitability though. That's just the way games are designed. And why? Lack of creativity? I just don't get why developers are still doing this.

Quote:
But actually...as soon as endgame becomes a topic...everyone with a certain class will strife for the same armor...thats how it works...FFXIV won't reinvent the wheel xD
The further you will get in the game, the more similiar everyone will become^^
Though it is not really "good", its something thats hard to prevent w/o throwing over the whole endgame concept etc.


It's really not that hard. In fact I'd say it's pretty easy. For example, if the merit system were a lot more fleshed out, and if job/subjobs were much more balanced, and if there were not such large differences in weapon skill ratings, there would be a lot of gameplay customization in FFXI (ok, not a lot, but a lot more than most MMOs). People would choose all sorts of different weapon, job/subjob and merit combinations.

And part of this stems from homogenized enemies. People always say, "But players will all conform and pick what's best!" which depends entirely on there being a "best" to begin with. It's easy for there to be a best when enemies all function in the same way. When your opponents are fundamentally unique, there is no optimal setup. At worst you'll end up with a statistically optimal setup that no one will ever be able to figure out.

It's this kind of thing that frustrates me, because this is sort of the obvious kind of progression that the genre needs to see. There are several more major innovative changes that they can't be expected to begin tackling if they can't get these basics out of the way. It's just sad to see the industry so stymied by everything except for better graphics.

I expect to see some noteworthy improvements and innovations out of XI, but I also expect to see a tremendous amount of lost potential.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#13 Aug 31 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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I see where you're coming from, Kachi. We can only hope, haha.

I dream of an MMO that the final boss/instance of the game ceases to drop the best loot. Or even any loot at all. People spending their time trying to GET the best loot that can help them topple the king of all evil, instead of killing the king of all evil to... get the drop to kill the king of all evil faster the next time.

Have the storyline be a main proprietor in beating the final boss, just as in any other FF, and reward the players in other various ways. Perhaps new abilities that have a backstory as to WHY you learned it in the first place (as an aside, learning abilities from actual situations instead of just leveling a skill would be awesome, as well).

Perhaps some bosses that almost require losses before victory. The deaths wouldn't just port you back to your homepoint, but instead be scripted into a storyline.

I don't know, I'm going off topic, haha. Sorry about my rambling. But yes, I'm not sure if any of these ideas are good, but I'm sure the creative minds at SE could do much more than just a rehash of what's been done. Maybe not invent the wheel, but make a new standard for other wheels.
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#14 Aug 31 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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well with the way they are doing xiv it sounds like there will be so many options upon your player path/tree/ whatever it may be, and these options early on actually have sway all the way up the tree. doing this if they balance it well enough that each branch has no best direction or worst direction people are going to chose these branches based on what the like and think is cool and what is relavent to their specific playing style. this way, (providing there are many many options) almost no two characters are going to be the same. this is the way I think it will be... i hope it will be...

the key is balancing every option with every other option in a tree type system

xi we had this problem because, up until lvl 75 a war hume was a war hume... only thing differentiating one was the armor, but there always has to be... the best armor in a game like this, which means everyone will strive for it, so everyone will eventually be too similar. true meriting will branch a player out into a further specialty, but there werent tooo many options in meriting either.
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#15 Aug 31 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps new abilities that have a backstory as to WHY you learned it in the first place (as an aside, learning abilities from actual situations instead of just leveling a skill would be awesome, as well).


This is actually one of what I would call the next major steps the genre needs to take (or at least a part of one). But unfortunately, you can't get to that point without first making ability and trait acquisition more than an entirely linear process.

There are several other important steps, but I guess I'm reticent to just give all of my ideas away to the ether.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#16 Aug 31 2009 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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Why must there be a "best armor in the game?" I understand this in principality, but feel that skill is the most important part. it was mentioned that the only thing that differentiated a war hume from another war hume was the armor. I disagree. The skill of the player also differentiated the two. As such, I hope that the new system in FF XIV will further allow for skill to reign above armor.

To address the other point concerning mixing up different abilities- that would be ideal; however, I don't think it will be possible. In the end, there can be only so many possiblities/possible skill sets that while not generic, "classes" will end up being similar. Then again, we don't have any real labels do we? As in, you would have to want to be a paladin and choose the skills you want as a paladin. I digress, there will be as much variation as there are different kinds of humans. It's similar to looking at a a family (tree) and the DNA in it. You may look a lot like Uncle Charlie but you sure as **** act a lot differently because of the different variations in your "DNA."
#17 Aug 31 2009 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Why must there be a "best armor in the game?" I understand this in principality, but feel that skill is the most important part. it was mentioned that the only thing that differentiated a war hume from another war hume was the armor. I disagree. The skill of the player also differentiated the two. As such, I hope that the new system in FF XIV will further allow for skill to reign above armor.


I really do not feel that FFXI requires much skill to play. At least it was very rare that I felt any particular kind of challenge. Pretty much unless you were a ******* there was little skill involved. You had only a handful of abilities that you would actually use, and the circumstances you would use them in were very clear-cut. There was little manual dexterity involved, and little personal strategy. I think the most pertinent skills in the game were purely social.

Quote:
To address the other point concerning mixing up different abilities- that would be ideal; however, I don't think it will be possible. In the end, there can be only so many possiblities/possible skill sets that while not generic, "classes" will end up being similar. Then again, we don't have any real labels do we? As in, you would have to want to be a paladin and choose the skills you want as a paladin. I digress, there will be as much variation as there are different kinds of humans. It's similar to looking at a a family (tree) and the DNA in it. You may look a lot like Uncle Charlie but you sure as **** act a lot differently because of the different variations in your "DNA."


I just want to make sure I'm understanding you here. You realized that it is possible? I'm not going to explain to you why it's possible if you already understand.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Sep 02 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't get me wrong, I am sure SE could show some creativity and build in some things that would truly give a better feeling of "unique-ness" to your character. I was only refering to endgame, because in the end, the most "elitist" players will "force" their member, or better said make it a prequesite for joining them, to be the best/optimal setup for your class/disciple. That's what I meant with "concept of endgame". SE can provide some ways to make it more unique, but in the end the "top players" don't want their members to be unique, but to be as good as the class can be, which in most cases define one special way :/
Of course SE could make it so different Bosses are handled differently, thus would only result in "top guilds" to prequesite more things to join them^^

PS: The idea of gaining abilities or other things not just by skilling but through other ways is something I would love to see!!
#19 Sep 02 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel like I'm saying this a lot lately (and I probably am), but it's so ridiculously not that ******* hard to make an optimal setup impossible. It frustrates me that players have accepted it as some kind of inevitability.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#20 Sep 02 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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As posted above the way FFXIV is doing skills is training them with weapons. Each weapon has 10~ skills that you can use. Not entirely sure if they are trained before use, you can use them forever with a different weapon if you spend some sort of points on them (FF IX style), if that is the case whether or not there is a cap (both learned and currently active) and so on. It does seem by way they describe the process in that 'day in the life of' story that your personal skill with each weapon will increase with use / guild leves.

Seems very FF IX.

As far as increasing HP, MP, STR, DEX and so on, I don't like the sphere grid at all. I'd prefer a list of stats with a +/- next to them and points gained by whatever to spend on them.


Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 5:51am by Yashnaheen
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#21 Sep 03 2009 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am sure SE could show some creativity and build in some things that would truly give a better feeling of "unique-ness" to your character. I was only refering to endgame, because in the end, the most "elitist" players will "force" their member, or better said make it a prequesite for joining them, to be the best/optimal setup for your class/disciple. That's what I meant with "concept of endgame". SE can provide some ways to make it more unique, but in the end the "top players" don't want their members to be unique, but to be as good as the class can be, which in most cases define one special way :/
Of course SE could make it so different Bosses are handled differently, thus would only result in "top guilds" to prequesite more things to join them^^

PS: The idea of gaining abilities or other things not just by skilling but through other ways is something I would love to see!!


While I agree with you, those players like the infamous Anna of WHM/thf fame might prove to be a pain in the **** in FFXIV too. The special snowflake player vs the elitist ******* mentality will always be the norm in these type of games. The real question is will they make certain jobs more fun this time around. Most people myself included are sick of RDM because of the way it's played by the user base. If the RDM class can front line mage like the Mithra in the demo holding up a magic bubble, that will work just fine for me.

Because SE keeps referring to fighting multi mobs at once, something tells me Sleepga won't be as useful this time around. It's almost as if you get attacked in waves like you're in a MMO version of the LOTR's Helm's Deep. It would be great if the bosses had good AI too. The Campaign NM's are very powerful, yet so predictable. If SE could harness AI into the bosses making them learn from a player's actions, the fights would be much more enjoyable.
#22 Sep 03 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I think SE got one serious advantage on their side now, compared to FFXI.

There will be only one class that define your current state, no Subjobs or w/e. Therefore it is a lot easier to maintain "equal worth" among all classes. They are easier to balance that way. On the other hand without implementing PvP its even easier to maintain balance in classes, because you don't have to consider two different results of changing something, but only the PvE aspect. This is what prevents WoW of being completely balanced for years now...

The result would be, all classes should have the same aspect of being "worthwhile" to be played. Now its only SE's job to do it right and make all classes to be of some use.
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