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#1 Aug 29 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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In the most recent interview as of this post's creation, I noticed that one of the related screenshots from IGN (found here) features a quest description.

It wasn't difficult to translate; the quest description goes like this:

"Nothing for Animal-lovers:"

"Recently the number of out-of-control Dodos and Puks in the areas surrounding the city of Unkreis has been increasing. If nothing were to be done about them, they will soon pose a danger to the city patrols. The owner of this Guildleve charter would like you to help maintain the natural equilibrium of the city of Unkreis by defeating:

6 Dodos and
3 Puks

You have 30 minutes to complete this.
This guildleve costs 10 BP.
You will be rewarded 2000 gil.
Bonus: A strong (hi-?) potion."

Overall I am palpably disappointed. Not only would it be difficult for someone to author a more generic quest, but it's literally the exact same quest that has been pasted countless times - from the "growing hostile X's" to the "something must be done to protect the nearby patrols" - in WoW, in WoW's predecessors, and in its clones for as long as MMOs have been able to replicate dry excuses for quests.
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#2 Aug 29 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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There's a puzzle to it though. Not very difficult at all, but in later quests there might be some interesting twists to the seemingly simple guildleaves.

I wonder how many BPs we'll have per day, and if they'll reset every JP midnight =P.
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#3 Aug 29 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:

This guildleve costs 10 BP.


What does 10 BP stands for ?
#4 Aug 29 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Hard to guess, possibly some german word.
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#5 Aug 29 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Oh my god, a quest where you have to kill something in an MMO?

I am outraged



seriously, I doubt this is going to be the only type of Guildleve. They specifically said there were several types, and 'Kill X' is probably one of the types.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 3:46pm by Kirbster
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#6 Aug 29 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Also, what fun would it be to kill the Lord of Gargantuan Death Rabbits after navigating your way through David Bowie's Labyrinth as your first quest?

You need to have some lame/simple enemies/objectives at first to give the later ones the amount of impact they have.
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#7 Aug 29 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Maldavian wrote:
What does 10 BP stands for ?


10 Beastmen Points (Like Beastmen Seals in FFXI).

Probably not, but it's all I could come up with.
#8 Aug 29 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Maldavian wrote:
What does 10 BP stands for ?


10 Beastmen Points (Like Beastmen Seals in FFXI).

Probably not, but it's all I could come up with.


Battle Points?
#9 Aug 29 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Oh my god, a quest where you have to kill something in an MMO?

I am outraged



seriously, I doubt this is going to be the only type of Guildleve. They specifically said there were several types, and 'Kill X' is probably one of the types.


Quote:
Also, what fun would it be to kill the Lord of Gargantuan Death Rabbits after navigating your way through David Bowie's Labyrinth as your first quest?


The worries and complaints about this quest and its description have little to do with the fact that it is monster slaying in an MMO, nor its level of difficulty, simplicity, or "epicness". What we (by which I mean I and in my egocentricity will include the rest of the speaking population) are worried about is the genuine lack of creativity it displays, given the powerhouse of monetary and personnel resources available to Square Enix. Is it really too much to ask for all of the quests to be well thought out and interesting.

Sure, go out and kill 10 Bunnies of Wimpiness may get you out there and get you experience, killing the Bunnies of Wimpiness may even be fun; but common, isn't there a better way to propose it?

Here's an idea SE, so the character walks up to the Guildleve office, and the officer hands our hero a request from the local grocer to bring in a bushel of supplies from a farm that has been late in its deliveries, and baring that, deturmine the reason for the late delivery and amend the problem. Upon arriving, the hero discovers that the farm's fields have been ransacked, covered in small burrows and trenches. Upon closer inspection, our hero realizes that the culprits are a family of Bunnies of Wimpiness that have eaten all the crops. The hero kills the 10 Bunnies of Wimpiness and returns to town to report that the supplies should begin appearing again once a new crop has grown in.

This scenario is identical to the one where you had to kill 10 Bunnies of Wimpiness right out, the difference is purpose and progression. When asked to kill 10 Bunnies of Wimpiniess, there is a purpose, but no progression, the hero has no interaction with the request. It exists, and he has to fulfill it. In my example, while admittedly not the epitome of good adventure writing or storytelling, the character plays a pivotal role in the way the quest progresses, it has both purpose (to investigate the late delivery) and progression. It's not like this isn't done in games already, we're not suggesting SE should do something revolutionary. Just that our expectations for our quests, all quests - not just most quests, are higher than "go out and kill things for leet loot".

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 7:25pm by Hulan
#10 Aug 29 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Is it really too much to ask for all of the quests to be well thought out and interesting.


Remember the quest descriptions in FFXI (if you've ever played it)? When checking the quest log, there was a description along the line of "Help NPC X to defeat the evil bunnies", although when getting the quest itself you were presented with a decent cutscene and story..

I wouldn't be too surprised if it was the case here too, lol.
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#11 Aug 29 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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You've a good point. However, it's not a necessity to have. Now, I agree with you in that it should be as your idea (ie. more creative and/or with story elements intertwined), but it's not a necessity. And that's what Alpha stage is. It's the barebones.

Now, since the purpose of this past event was to raise awareness and promote Guildleves almost solely, I see where your worrying comes into play. But I'd give them the benefit of the doubt since it's still in a raw term in its development cycle.
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#12 Aug 29 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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Hulan wrote:
The worries and complaints about this quest and its description have little to do with the fact that it is monster slaying in an MMO, nor its level of difficulty, simplicity, or "epicness". What we... are worried about is the genuine lack of creativity it displays


Yes; thank you.
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#13 Aug 29 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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It's true that FFXI's quest descriptions weren't much better, and also true that many of them has a great deal of forethought put into the actual execution. But I always felt that "quests" (rather than missions) were tacked on as more of an afterthought than anything else. There were a few with truly inspired and interesting elements; the Sleepga II quest line springs to mind. But for the most part, these were gems you had to wade through mediocrity to get to. I remember a particular quest in Bastok in which you had to gather Flint Rock for a woman to start her fire with. It was actually a pretty good way to make a quest repeatable without making it seem repetitive, but it felt hollow, like dolls moving though the same actions over and over again with no feeling.

Also, I get a different feel from these clip of text than I do from the quest log in FFXI. In FFXI the quest log was something you waded through several menus to get to, and most people barely even bothered to look at it half the time. The on the other hand, feels a lot closer at hand; like something the user will see all the time.


MystikMadness, what you say about it being an Alpha build is very true, and something I always keep in the forefront when I consider the pros and cons of what we've seen so far. Being an Alpha build, however, does not excuse poor writing. I can understand if they wanted to put something out quickly so the fans would have something to gnash their collective teeth at. But this implies that at least at a certain level "Kill 10 monsters for cool stuff" is the level of quest implementation they are considering. It's more than possible that we will see something much more advanced in the final game. But somewhere, someone had to say "This is a good enough quest to showcase the Guildleve system". And that has us worried.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 7:57pm by Hulan
#14 Aug 29 2009 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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I can see where your concern lies, but it seems to me much ado about nothing.

It's fairly obvious they wanted a simple cookie-cutter leve, especially considering each person would only be able to sit and play for a very short amount of time.

It's not unusual for a playable alpha build.
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#15 Aug 29 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But somewhere, someone had to say "This is a good enough quest to showcase the Guildleve system". And that has us worried.


Too true. Perhaps Japanese standards for pre-pre-release builds are different than our own. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. But either way, I agree with you. All I can really do is hope that it IS basically just a placeholder and will be more creatively asserted once beta/release comes around.
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#16 Aug 29 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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It's pretty obvious that this will be the most basic kind of quest available. They even said that the quests being shown were only the 15 minute ones and they have other, much longer quests available.

I had much more to say, but the idea of replying to this stupid topic gives me a headache. One of the things FF games are known for are their excellent quests. I wouldn't worry about them sucking.

Think about it.
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#17 Aug 29 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not suprised by the simplicity of the quest, it would be nice to see some more creative writing but I'm not going to loose sleep over it at this point.

They said there were going to be short and easy quests as well as implying long and far more complex ones. I would expect the short ones to range from bizzar and fun to quick and ugly just by the nature of the "fastfood leve". :P

I think we all hope for better writing for the most part but I have no illusions about some of them being lemons. They just chose poorly for something to display the leve system, it did get people to play with the combat mechanics at least (to bad so little of it was done for the camera).
#18 Aug 29 2009 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Every MMO will have quests that range from "Deliver a message to a guy standing 2 feet away from me" to "Slay XXXX for a reward."

But at the end of the day I'd take any of the generic quest text over "So Chilly..."
#19 Aug 29 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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What do you want from quests, exactly? There are about 3 types.

1.) Kill X mobs.

2.) Get X drops from mobs.

3.) Take item X over to some guy.

And yeah, sometimes you get the combos of "Get X drops and then take them to some guy" but its all pretty much the same thing.

The whole quest for exp genre has always had those three types of quests, and no one has yet to invent anything new (ok, ok, WoW has tried with the release of WotK -- and actually did a pretty decent job with "new quests").

Its most likely going to be more of the same for FF14.
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#20 Aug 29 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel like there's two groups on this thread, both arguing their own points, and both beginning to get agitated that the other side doesn't quite see it their way. But we're arguing two arguments that don't actually overlap in material. I(we) say that there is no excuse for bad writing, you (I'm grouping and generalizing at this point for simplicity, sorry) respond that there have always been "kill x monster" and "bring y to z" quests. They're both true, and they're not mutually exclusive. All I'm saying is, why can't we have both. This game, like all games at this stage, has the potential to try something new, and raise itself one step above.

Why can we not stick to the three categories of quests you mentioned, but keep them fresh and interesting with good writing and pacing.

Quote:
"Recently the number of out-of-control Dodos and Puks in the areas surrounding the city of Unkreis has been increasing. If nothing were to be done about them, they will soon pose a danger to the city patrols. The owner of this Guildleve charter would like you to help maintain the natural equilibrium of the city of Unkreis by defeating:


is not good writing or pacing.

I guess my point is, we're discussing, but not ever arguing against each other, which really begs the question on why there is a discussion at all. I have no complaints about having quests that ultimately make us kill 10 birds, just that they keep me interested with a reason to kill 10 birds that I can believe. At the same time, I hardly thing you all are saying you don't want good writing.

So... smores anyone?


hmmm worst grammatical post ever... Sorry

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 12:56am by Hulan

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 12:57am by Hulan

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 1:01am by Hulan
#21 Aug 29 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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I think you're missing the point.

Everyone is saying that complaining about how well-written a placeholder quest text in an alpha playthrough is kind of pointless and silly.


Anyone remember the FFVIII demo that came with Brave Fencer Musashi on the PS1?

'Go to the communications tower' was all you knew and had to do, as well as fight things. I don't think people started complaining that 'Go to the communication tower' was badly written and clearly must indicate that all of the game must be 'go to the communication tower' instead it simply being just a demonstration.

Edited, Aug 29th 2009 10:19pm by Kirbster
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#22 Aug 29 2009 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
Hulan wrote:
Is it really too much to ask for all of the quests to be well thought out and interesting.


The short answer? Yes.

Do you have any idea how many quests are involved in a quest-driven MMO? THousands. It's not a few here and then grind for 60 hours and a few there and then grind for another 60 hours. SE has said they want development to be centered around the guildleves which means there's most likely going to be a lot of them. A whole lot. And when you get right down to it, those quests are going to be based around the combat and interaction mechanics of the game.

1) Talk to someone/interact with something (ie. examine).
2) Travel somewhere.
3) Kill something.
4) Gather/loot something.
5) Any combination of 1-4.

I would much rather SE focus their efforts on core missions and some quests that are absolutely fantastic and bulk up the game with quests/guildleves that just provide a direction to the grind than to water down their efforts in an attempt to spread them out and end up with a game that's just mediocre overall.

Keep in mind that you can tell a decent story over the course of several quests that start seemingly mundane and involve something significant.
#23 Aug 30 2009 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Aurelius Wrote:
Quote:
Hulan wrote: Is it really too much to ask for all of the quests to be well thought out and interesting.



The short answer? Yes.


The long answer is also Yes. Even offline games have some boring crap in there to let you learn the basics of the game and get some easy starts.

I think my mantra for FFXIV is becoming: 'If you don't see it in an offline game, then don't even think about it for an online game.' This also applies to such topics as: 'Equipment damage visible in real time', 'Personally customizable dances', and 'Personal dialogue with NPCs that I type and they react to'.

If it can't be done logistically in an offline game that already exists, it won't happen in FFXIV. Simple Logic.

Given all this, I ask: What RPG doesn't have a fetch and return quest like killing 10 bunnies? (or rats... you know they all have a quest to kill 10 rats) At least WoW was original in this aspect... it asked players to collect ****. Literal ****. The stuff that comes out the endgame of the digestive system.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 4:51am by Shazaamemt
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#24 Aug 30 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Why is anyone even getting worked up over this? The game is 50% done. This Guildleve was probably specifically designed to just give people at Gamescon something to ***** around with. There's no telling if any quest like this will actually be in the game, or if they'll be more elaborate, or anything.
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#25 Aug 30 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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well, i didn't really read everything, but if you didn't see...
something about that translation was new...

...Unkreis wasn't in the "know" cities yet, was it ?
#26 Aug 30 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
well, i didn't really read everything, but if you didn't see...
something about that translation was new...

...Unkreis wasn't in the "know" cities yet, was it ?

Actually, unfortunately, 'Umkreis' is a German word meaning, roughly, 'vicinity'. The first sentence actually translates closer to: In the areas around the city (implied Limsa Lominsa from the guildleve information), Dodos and Puks are reproducing uncontrolled.

This image shows, if you know any Japanese, that Umkreis, or anything similar, were it a city name, is left unmentioned. Not to cut your hopes down. ;_;

Additionally, if anyone is curious about the other aspects of the guildleve that are left out of the topic post, they include:

Skill needed: 0
City that requested help: Limsa Lominsa
Starting Position: Camp Bartelrock (Camp Bardedrock? (according to the Japanese version))
Bonus: Hi-Potion (no debate if you look at the Japanese version)


Given that the quest requires 0 skill in anything, it's the equivalent of any beginner quest. Beyond that, I will cast myself away from the rest of the argument.
#27 Aug 30 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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'Personal dialogue with NPCs that I type and they react to'.


Actualy the earlier versions of UO have a word recognition system in the AI for most NPCs, while it didn't always mean they responded to what you actualy wanted they would respond to parts of what you said. Some people even spent time (like 30 minutes or longer) talking to NPCs before an actual player would tell them it was an NPC hehe.
For some reason they ended up takeing that out.... The down side was that they didn't respond to misspelled words so even a typo could change what they thought you were saying.

Back on topic, yeah like I was trying to say before, I expect the longer quests to be farely well writen at least but I'm not going to be bothered by some of the quick quests being story abortions :P
#28 Aug 30 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Default
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Looks awesome.

You can't expect every quest to be "Kill the dark lord and save the universe from sure destruction".

Even the bravest of heroes but start small!
#29 Aug 30 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I will certainly grant that my "wish list" expectations are higher than what is plausible in a real world sense. But I feel to some extent the purpose of theorizing about a game this far away from release is to let our imaginations run free. I wish there would be a plethora and abundance of well written quests. But I suppose in the real world there's only so much you can do. That being said, I would prefer it if SE spent all their story telling resources on making fewer good quests, than copy and pasting the same quests we see in every other MMO (except FFXI) over and over again. Personally, for all it's faults, I was somewhat pleased with the variety of quests in FFXI and would love to see something similar in scope in FFXIV (with a little bit more flesh perhaps, I am in no way a proponent of 'so chilly' quests).

Unfortunately, FFXI was not a quest driven game (missions were important, but mostly secondary to leveling, which was separate). FFXIV, being a quest driven game supposedly, will need to work their quests more seamlessly into the game play. Given this, I can understand if corners need to be cut.

Anyway, please forgive my previous pugnacity, I do try very hard to debate points like this without letting myself get overheated, but Story is sort of my pet component in games, and I would be crushed if SE churned out a game with hundreds of cookie cutter quests with a few gems so buried in the ocean of mediocrity, it took years to find them. Perhaps I am worrying over nothing though, this Alpha quest lineup was incredibly simple and disappointing, but SE otherwise has a long track record of good plot and quest building.... Again, I apologize for my previous heat; I will leave the rest to fate and SE to show us what they've got.
#30 Aug 30 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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So, a little off topic, but, since it seems like such a FFXI meme these days:

What's the deal with "So chilly..."?
#31 Aug 30 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
So, a little off topic, but, since it seems like such a FFXI meme these days:

What's the deal with "So chilly..."?


Read and enjoy.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 4:09pm by Hulan
#32 Aug 31 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Here's an idea SE, so the character walks up to the Guildleve office, and the officer hands our hero a request from the local grocer to bring in a bushel of supplies from a farm that has been late in its deliveries, and baring that, deturmine the reason for the late delivery and amend the problem. Upon arriving, the hero discovers that the farm's fields have been ransacked, covered in small burrows and trenches. Upon closer inspection, our hero realizes that the culprits are a family of Bunnies of Wimpiness that have eaten all the crops. The hero kills the 10 Bunnies of Wimpiness and returns to town to report that the supplies should begin appearing again once a new crop has grown in.


I will agree that the story SE came up with for that quest is kinda lame. However, the story you recommend is rather unrealistic for a quest that is repeatable. I think it's a bit more difficult to write a good quest that still makes sense to do everyday. Thing is, it makes sense to control native monster population continuously for the benefit of patrols. Farmer Brown being late with his delivery and investigating the cause makes sense once, doing it again and again would go well beyond bad writing. All I'm saying is that it's a bit harder to contrive a more complicated story that works repeatedly. Not that it can't be done, but once you consider all of the dialog, the summary, and the added NPCs, it would be better to devote the talent needed to things that will make the game truly shine.
#33 Aug 31 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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i don't get why people are taking it this way... xi did the same thing...

heres the difference... though

in XI: go kill an ambiguous amount of bunny rabbits until they drop 3 rabbit hides... then bring them back to me when ur done. and you might spend 45 minutes doing this because you might get flat out unlucky drops.

iv XIV: go kill a specific amount of bunny rabbits so you don't spend 30minutes more than the person before you who did this quest to get the same reward.

xi's example is exactly what xiv is trying to get rid of... players giving an unequal amount of effort and time to get the same reward.

other mmo's that do have item drop quests do it like this: once quest is activated all enemies of that type will have 100% or near 100% drop rate of that quest item. which is also a smart way to go.

in all reality there isn't much more creativity in either one of them...

go kill rabbits

go kill 10 rabbits

with these very early quests i don't think creativity is really that much of a concern for any mmo, they are trying to get you used to the game and its battle system while rewarding you with quest rewards.

even early MISSIoNS were like this in xi... for sanny: go kill orc scouts until 1 of them decides to drop their axe before rigamortis sets in and you can't pry the axe from their fingers... ***** the luck!

as a new player starting in sanny it really was like... really? i can see the axe... right there... just let me have it... i mean... the ***** thing is USING the axe... shouldn't i get it now? it doesn't need it anymore.... oh nope it faded away, gotta go find another one!
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#34 Aug 31 2009 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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And FFXIV could also have quests that are like "Kill an ambiguous number of x monster until you get y number of z drops". It could take 10 minutes, it could take 40 minutes.

Who knows?

And who knows what the other quests in FFXIV will be like?
What we saw was a early guildleve description in a pre-alpha build.

Who knows what kind of other quests are available or how they'll be described.

If every quest was "The [insert evil and powerful sounding monster name here] has been killing travelers and adventures recently! It even attacked the city and killed several people, flooding the streets with blood. Please, travel to the depths of the [insert dark and spooky name here] cave and kill this evil and vile beast once and for all!", that would be really...really weird.

Before you know it, we'll be complaining that this description is too generic. What will we want next? Gory and gruesome details of how every single villager met with their untimely demise?

And it's probably the beginning of the game. These are the kinds of quests you'd expect at the beginning.
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#35 Aug 31 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Default
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lame quest is lame



Get rid of this crap, and bring back the FFXI quests, which were useless and thus could be ignored. I'd much rather kill random mobs for exp, than have such a retarded pretence given to me for doing so.
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#36 Aug 31 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
Pluelf wrote:
lame quest is lame



Get rid of this crap, and bring back the FFXI quests, which were useless and thus could be ignored. I'd much rather kill random mobs for exp, than have such a retarded pretence given to me for doing so.


<---- 2002 is that way.
#37 Aug 31 2009 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Pluelf wrote:
lame quest is lame



Get rid of this crap, and bring back the FFXI quests, which were useless and thus could be ignored. I'd much rather kill random mobs for exp, than have such a retarded pretence given to me for doing so.


<---- 2002 is that way.


i lawled

the concept of ffxiv is that it is for everyone... if you want to kill random mobs for exp, great, do it! or you can choose to do quests and stuff, and whatever other options there are, that is the point.

at least we have options this time around, in xi it was random mobs or gtfo, xiv will be... random mobs OK! quests OK! eetc, OK!

Quote:
And FFXIV could also have quests that are like "Kill an ambiguous number of x monster until you get y number of z drops". It could take 10 minutes, it could take 40 minutes.

Who knows?


it very well could, its just they've been saying since the start now that they want to have more rewards that are equal to the effort a player puts in, unlucky drops = more effort but same reward as a lucky person. they've also said they will be greatly increasing drop rates, so even if it is kill xmonster till you get ydrops it won't be as much of a time sink as we are used to.

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 2:25am by Bocomi
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Asurean Taru

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#38 Sep 01 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,022 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

Keep in mind that you can tell a decent story over the course of several quests that start seemingly mundane and involve something significant.


Star Onion Brigade!!!
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#39 Sep 01 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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121 posts
Autumnfire wrote:

Star Onion Brigade!!!


This. I loved this little storyline. The quests had you doing not so very 'fun' things, but this is one of the quest lines that almost all FFXI'ers remember.

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 1:58pm by Mezzura
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