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A Grind By Any Other Name...Follow

#1 Aug 30 2009 at 3:14 AM Rating: Default
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...is still a grind. After finding out a bit about XIV I've realized that the folks over at SE have lost it. This new Armory system for example. You equip a weapon and some weapon specific gear and go fight things to skill up and learn new abilities. This is practically the exact same system we already have in XI with a few different terms tossed in. The only real difference is that you can change jobs by changing gear instead of having to run to your Moogle. They claim it's levelless game and you won't have to grind out EXP, but that's only because they're calling them by different names. Honestly, this game is starting to look more and more like FFXI-2.
#2 Aug 30 2009 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, this game is starting to look more and more like an MMO


Dumb thread is dumb.
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#3 Aug 30 2009 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh cool, is this the thread where we post baseless claims about how the game will work?

I want to do it too!
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#4 Aug 30 2009 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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(There will be chocobo knights, and they will be overpowered as ****.)
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#5 Aug 30 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Hahaha, so OP believed there wouldn't be a grind involved? How do you think they plan on making money?

The more I hear about this game the more I like it and can't wait to play it.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 9:12am by mpmaley
#6 Aug 30 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Turin, Eater of Souls wrote:
...is still a grind. After finding out a bit about XIV I've realized that the folks over at SE have lost it. This new Armory system for example. You equip a weapon and some weapon specific gear and go fight things to skill up and learn new abilities. This is practically the exact same system we already have in XI with a few different terms tossed in. The only real difference is that you can change jobs by changing gear instead of having to run to your Moogle. They claim it's levelless game and you won't have to grind out EXP, but that's only because they're calling them by different names. Honestly, this game is starting to look more and more like FFXI-2.


/facepalm Smiley: glare
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#7 Aug 30 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
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a grind by any other name is still a new grind and something I can have fun learning to do.

Boring old grind that's been around since dawn of MMOs

OR

New grind that has a completely new twist

hmm... Monty Hall would have a hard time selling the first option to anyone...
#8 Aug 30 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm fine with grinding as long as they make it fun and interesting but we really can't say one way or another if the game is a grindfest or not...since even with the information we just got we still don't really know anything.

On that thought SE is pretty skilled in releasing information without actually...releasing information.
#9 Aug 30 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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I hear the chocobo knight class is going to be so overpowered that you'll be able to just put every ability into a /randomcast macro and spam it to kill everything.

Smiley: um
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#10 Aug 30 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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A GM just told me that we will be able to ride HUGE GIANT OMFG Dragons in FFXIV. (FFXI-2)

W00t?

And Male Mithra will be called "Cat Men".

e.e

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 12:46pm by Skeptic
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#11 Aug 30 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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Well, in the interest of giving OP the benefit of the doubt, let's make sure we're on the same page.

Are you upset that it takes time? Or are you upset because your worried it will take time and that time will be repetitive and boring? Because people use the word Grind for both.

Like the other posters, I believe the first is something you should have expected.
However, if you meant the second; it's a understandable worry, but it's a little early to make that judgment call.


I really am hoping we're in store for a little more combat character customization that switching into fixed jobs more fluidly.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 1:16pm by Zemzelette
#12 Aug 30 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Default
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No monthly payments in ffxi-2! woohoo
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#13 Aug 30 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I really don't understand what's wrong with a grind in an MMO. MMOs are meant to last a very long time. If you obtain the max level and get all of the best equipment in a few months, then what's the point in playing anymore besides just enjoying time with your friends? Or if you have no friends, treating it like a job to run a linkshell or help your fellow linkshell members. Goals are what keep MMOs alive, imo. If there are no goals, then there is no reason to play.

Personally, I don't mind if it takes like 6-8 months to hit the max level. I want to enjoy my time playing and experiencing the growth of my character. The grind will get boring and it's hard to make grinding not boring after doing it for a couple of months but my suggestion is just to grind in many areas besides one. Or, just do guildleves so you have some sort of goal to work toward. ;)
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#14 Aug 30 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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When I hear the word "grind" I think of fighting the same exact monster, 8 hours a day, for 1 week, to go up one level.

I also typically do not associate questing with grinding. If I have a quest that asks to kill 30 of x monster, I typically don't say "what a grindfest!"

OTOH, when there is a severe lack of quests and the only way to level up is to kill the enemy closest to your level, which, surprise, there are very few of and they all look the same, for several days at a time, then that's a grindfest.

The grind is even worse when the main plot is seriously lacking.

In every MMORPG, there is going to be some form of leveling. I haven't played, or heard of, any MMORPG where there are no levels or no skill ranks.

Inevitably, players are going to have to spend some time raising those ranks.

Regarding grinding, there are two factors that really should be considered:
Is it going to be long to rank up skills?
Is it going to be boring/repetitive?

And given the information we have so far on this game is it far too early to answer either of those questions with accuracy.

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#15 Aug 30 2009 at 11:19 PM Rating: Default
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Way to focus on the title and completely ignore the rest of the post there guys. Smiley: oyvey I suppose I'll have to spell things out for you since most of you are too dense to have gotten the point the first time around.

FFXI Job levels = FFXIV Weapon Levels
FFXI Job Specific Equipment = FFXIV Weapon Specific Equipment
FFXI Job Level Requirements = FFXIV Weapon Level Requirements
FFXI FoV = FFXIV Guildleve
FFXI Races = FFXIV Races
FFXI Three Starter Cities = FFXIV Three Starter Cities
FFXI OP Warp = FFXIV Aetheryte
FFXI Adventurers = FFXIV Adventurers

This is just the information we have so far. As SE releases more information I'm sure more similarities are going to crop up. So far the only real differences are the upgraded graphics, the terms used, and the ability to change jobs on the fly. That last one is the only bit that will make any real difference in gameplay. SE is so focused on getting players from XI to play FFXIV that they really are making FFXI-2.


Edited, Aug 31st 2009 8:13pm by Turin
#16 Aug 30 2009 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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I can probably match half the game to runescape too, that doesn't make it runescape-2.
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#17 Aug 30 2009 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Holy sh*t

Similarities!?

Well, we can't be having any of those.

The next thing you know, it might have Chocobos and a guy named Cid in it.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 12:31am by Kirbster
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#18 Aug 30 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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Seems nearly everyone here is drinking the kool-aid.

For those of you that believe MMORPgs require grinds, are defined by grinds, or need them to be profitable, I feel pity the that you condemn yourselves to milking joy from agony. Grinds are short cuts; grinds are the products of lazy developers; grinds are unnecessary filler.
Kirbster wrote:
Holy sh*t

Similarities!?

Well, we can't be having any of those.

The next thing you know, it might have Chocobos and a guy named Cid in it.

Wow do you like to hear yourself talk.
#19 Aug 30 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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No more than you do, I just cut out all the pompous and use sarcasm instead.

As Deadgye said:

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I can probably match half the game to runescape too, that doesn't make it runescape-2.


This thread is stupid and baseless.


Edited, Aug 31st 2009 12:59am by Kirbster
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#20 Aug 31 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Default
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Kirbster wrote:
No more than you do, I just cut out all the pompous.

"I know you are but what am I?" Really? Look, you said the same thing three times (well twice depending on how specific you wish to be) in a row as if you thought it was too clever to be said only once. When you catch me doing that, then you can legitimately mock me.

The information we received about the current alpha may not accurately reflect the final product, but from what we know thus far there are some very striking similarities to FFXI relatively to other MMORPGS. To pass off the similarities as generic elements of the broad MMORPG genre is a ridiculous dismissal of the difference in degree. It is akin to denouncing the similarities of ricotta to cheddar as generic traits shared by all foods.

One of the earliest guildleves discussed was a rather generic kill quest. Perhaps there will be many more leves of a far more interesting nature, but there is the start of your grind.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 3:09am by Allegory
#21 Aug 31 2009 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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With level-less I think of it more as in that you don't increase that much in stats. As in a new player might be STR 10, HP 500 and an endgame player might be STR 15 HP 600, and that mostly because of the armor they are wearing.

That would in other words mean the level-difference of classic games are gone, and that you aren't that far off from an endgame player even if you recently started, which means you can party together.

Of course the talk about "level sync" in XIV makes me wonder if they didn't just make levels on weapons and still mean that a level 75 sword user has 1500 HP and a level 1 sword user has 30 HP.
#22 Aug 31 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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Of course!

But it's ridiculous to try to have imagined that XIV would have no similarities at all to XI, considering their entire experience in the MMO genre is XI.


This thread would have more merit if we were in the middle of the beta. Right now it comes off like 'the sky is falling' considering the relative lack of information or hands-on experience we have. And even then, there's a sizable chunk of people who honestly think that a more casual friendly, prettier FFXI with new mechanics is just fine.


And apparently three(two) posts clearly weren't enough to get my point across.

And we're both pompous.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 1:19am by Kirbster
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#23 Aug 31 2009 at 2:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Haha...

-When NCSoft finishes Guild Wars 2, I expect it to have a lot of similarities to the original Guild Wars.
-When Blizzard finishes their unnamed Next-Gen MMO, I expect it to have a lot of similarities to WoW.
-When SE finishes FFXIV, I expect it to have a lot of similarities to FFXI.

SE isn't creating a new IP. No one should expect a vastly different game. They're making another Final Fantasy MMO...and therefore it should be similar to it's predecessor. It's only logical. Standard console FF RPG's have always had huge points in common (Crystals, Airships, Characters, Lore, etc). Why would anyone expect any different from a Final Fantasy MMO?

As for a "Grind"...I'll never understand why people argue this point. Most people have different definitions for "Grind" in MMO's. Most times, a Grind is a Grind because the player makes it a Grind. If you aren't enjoying it, it's a Grind. If it's required, it's a Grind. Blah blah blah blah. It's an MMO, there are always multiple points of progression opportunity. If you call it a "Grind" before you've even touched it...you shouldn't bother buying it in the first place.
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#24 Aug 31 2009 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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@Allegory: I can see the point of everyone drinking the "cool-aid"...it's only logical...

How the **** can someone expect SE to overthrow the whole concept of MMORPGs as they are made/played for over 10 years...they didn't say they want to build/create something totally new from the scratch...they just want to make it feel different from the usual lvl grinds...and to be honest...there is potential in having Skill lvl for weapons rather than having Lvls itself...

If someone expected it to be something totally new...well then he should have started to think with common sense...this won't happen <.<

Stats/Abilities are something you can only achieve by some form of "gathering" points...if you want it to be something new...you would need a complete new system that would probably not work fine...for example...you don't get skill lvl/points...rather just get better with a weapon the more you use it...but if you get points for using it, or just get better using it makes no real difference...

So how can someone possibly think SE would become the god of MMO and create the mind-blasting eye-exploding MMO of all time?

See now why everyone drinks the "cool-aid"?

Because thinking it would be that way is just stupid xD

PS: I for myself only expected FFXIV to be as FFXI just w/o all the ************** as for now they are heading the right direction to get there IMO.
#25 Aug 31 2009 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
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Grinding issues aside, when they mentioned there's no experience points at all I basically to look at FFII on the Famicom/GBA as that's literally what they're modeling FFXIV after it seems. There's not experience points, and your power level is based on the weapon you equip; you skill it up, and it gains in power -- switch out to another one and you have to start all over again.

Nothing really new in terms of games, but it's definitely different in MMO environments. I don't really think it will work out all that well, considering they're reducing all elements of the game to the skill-up system instead of a tangible indicator of power (levels).

We'll see, though.
#26 Aug 31 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Im curious how the skills on weapons will affect buying and selling weapons on an "Auction House" . Will you be able to buy weapons with leet skills that someone else "leveled" up etc.

I'm not sure I like that possibility.
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#27 Aug 31 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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wickedgoodkt wrote:
Im curious how the skills on weapons will affect buying and selling weapons on an "Auction House" . Will you be able to buy weapons with leet skills that someone else "leveled" up etc.


The players/characters "skill" with the weapon dictates level, not the weapon itself. So a weapon cannot retail a skill that can be transferred via a transaction. The wielder of a weapon is only as powerful as the skill of the character, the weapon is just that...a weapon.
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#28 Aug 31 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I love all this talk of "grind" as if the developers created it. It's the player base that creates the grind.

SE didn't force anyone to kill a billion crabs to obtain level 75. It was players, opting for speed and efficiency, that turned everything into a grind by dictating where and how xp should be gained.

SE never wanted anyone to "grind". They offered plenty of variety in enemies, locales and jobs to make things different. THe playerbase then took those and determined "the best way" and grind was then set in stone.

I imagine, SE has learned from this and will try to enhance variety in the "player development" aspect of the game. It's a tough balancing act and hopefuhey get it right.

But for those of you taht think FFXIV might be FFXI-2, I think you are right to a degree. Essentially we FFXI players have been beta testing a bunch of content over the last year so SE can get an idea of what works and what doesn't. I expect leves will be similar to both MMM and FoV in some respect.
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#29 Aug 31 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's not entirely true if at all.

We know that a large number of players will strive for maximum efficiency-- that's one of the overarching objectives of any game: to be better. It's completely unrealistic as a developer to expect people to ignore this and choose significantly less efficient behaviors.

And SE designed their game so that players would be most efficient if they grinded. They put a cap on battle xp so that taking on challenging, epic battles with regular enemies would be stupidly inefficient. An enemy that takes you an hour to kill with your alliance will give you less xp than an enemy that took you a minute to kill solo.

So I'd say that SE can be blamed for the grind pretty easily. You can only blame players for participating. Which if you're going to blame people for playing a game that was created to be played, that really doesn't speak very highly of the quality of the game, which leads us back to the developers.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Aug 31 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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My assumption is that players abused grinding to get to 50 faster in the classic FF, so SE extended 50-75 to be a lot of exp to counter this behavior, leaving us with players feeling forced to grind, even though they chose the grind in the first place.

Basically it is the same as with BLM. People abused it as the best job so SE made mobs immune to magic to down-grade it. And then people complain that they can't use the job because SE makes everything resist nukes.

We just keep digging our own holes and fall in, then we wonder why on earth there is a hole there.
#31 Aug 31 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Turin, Eater of Souls wrote:
Way to focus on the title and completely ignore the rest of the post there guys. Smiley: oyvey I suppose I'll have to spell things out for you since most of you are too dense to have gotten the point the first time around.

FFXI Job levels = FFXVI Weapon Levels
FFXI Job Specific Equipment = FFXVI Weapon Specific Equipment
FFXI Job Level Requirements = FFXVI Weapon Level Requirements
FFXI FoV = FFXVI Guildleve
FFXI Races = FFXVI Races
FFXI Three Starter Cities = FFXVI Three Starter Cities
FFXI OP Warp = Aetheryte
FFXI Adventurers = FFXVI Adventurers

This is just the information we have so far. As SE releases more information I'm sure more similarities are going to crop up. So far the only real differences are the upgraded graphics, the terms used, and the ability to change jobs on the fly. That last one is the only bit that will make any real difference in gameplay. SE is so focused on getting players from XI to play XVI that they really are making FFXI-2.
that may or may not be true, but why do you care about final fantasy sixteen already?
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#32 Aug 31 2009 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Basically it is the same as with BLM. People abused it as the best job so SE made mobs immune to magic to down-grade it. And then people complain that they can't use the job because SE makes everything resist nukes.

We just keep digging our own holes and fall in, then we wonder why on earth there is a hole there.



I see alot of this "blame the player" going around, and I just can't understand it.

When the developer over-corrects in the MMO business, they realize their error and actively seek a middle-ground solution. Just because SE spectacularly dropped the ball on this particular duty, doesn't mean you go ahead and take the initiative to point the finger at yourself.

This is not divine justice being meted out, SE is not taking revenge out on it's playerbase, there is no higher lesson being taught or disciplinary action taking place on the unruly masses. They're a company trying to ensure a fairly even distribution of the playerbase amongst the classes for the ultimate goal of turning a profit. This is one of their chief concerns as a developer and one of the aspects of customer service to the player-base. If they fail to do so, regardless of the fact it was in our hands, it's on their heads.



Edited, Aug 31st 2009 7:45pm by Zemzelette
#33 Aug 31 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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It bugs me more than anything when people complain that there is a grind. Everything is a grind, including real life. You have to take time and do repetitive tasks to get better at anything you do. You can call it training or practice but its still grinding.
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#34 Aug 31 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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lol, maybe time to see a therapist if you view your entire life as a grind.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#35 Aug 31 2009 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
lol, maybe time to see a therapist if you view your entire life as a grind.


If you think about it he would be right. I know my life certainly is at this point. The difference is when you're grinding life it actually means something (working towards a goal...say a nice house for your family to live in peacefully). Grinding in a game doesn't (unless you happen to like grinding) since in the end you're basically working towards a bunch of 1s, 0s and pixels.
#36 Aug 31 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, dunno what to tell you. My life isn't a grind-- there are lots of interesting things I'm constantly looking forward to. The only parts of my life I would consider a grind are doing the laundry and dishes.

Maybe time to reevaluate the direction of your life.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#37 Aug 31 2009 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm with Kachi here. Life can involve grinds, but life by itself is not innately necessarily a grind.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 10:23pm by Allegory
#38 Aug 31 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, dunno what to tell you. My life isn't a grind-- there are lots of interesting things I'm constantly looking forward to. The only parts of my life I would consider a grind are doing the laundry and dishes.

Maybe time to reevaluate the direction of your life.


I don't get why the word "grind" always has a negative definition implied with it. As it refers to real-life, a lot of things in real-life is a grind. This doesn't mean its bad, because a "grind" does not automatically mean that it refers to something bad. If you go to work everyday, then that is a "grind". If you go to school every weekday, then that is a "grind". If you go to a sports practice every weekday, then that is a "grind". If you go to band practice every weekday, then that is a "grind". Their is nothing negative with any of those things, so I don't see why he needs to reevaluate the direction of his life. The word "grind" is actually used in the real world a lot, as a positive thing, as in "I've been grinding".

The only way to get better at things is if you practice them repeatedly, and thats the meaning of a "grind". A grind is a repeated task, and how often you repeat that task is determined by the player.

If you thought that ffxiv would have no grind then you were fooling yourself. They want to make a longlasting game and not a game that last a couple of months at the most. I really can't think of many games (any type of game), that didn't include a "grind" in one way or another. I mean street fighter 4, makes you beat the game with everybody, and do some extra task to unlock Akumo, that is a grind. Call of Duty has guns that are unlocked at rank 60+ (on multiplayer), and that is a grind. Rpgs require you to level up and that is a grind. Forza motorsports require you to beat long race tracks in order to unlock more, and that is a grind. This is an mmorpg and of course their will be a grind involved.

"Grind" gets the same negative implication that the word "work" gets. Work has multiple meanings but everytime somebody says "work", you get the ole "a game shouldn't feel like a job" speech. Well that is only one meaning for "work" and it could mean hard-work, as in putting your heart and soul into a goal in the game. "Grind" doesn't automatically mean negative things, and of course it will be in the game. If the "Grind" doesn't work for you, then either do a lighter dose of it, or play a game with less "grind".



#39 Aug 31 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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So Turin won't be getting Final Fantasy XIV? I'm just here to double-check before he posts it a million more times.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 9:15pm by UltKnightGrover
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#40 Aug 31 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know how it is that some people still don't know what the word grind means.

A grind is not any repetitive task. Monotony or tedium, not repetition, is what determines whether something is a grind. Check out a freaking dictionary-- it's not even slang.

In other words, it's only a grind once it becomes laboriously boring. When that occurs differs depending on the person and their attitude, as well as their aptitude (a more talented person is likely to master a task and grow bored with it more quickly than someone less talented), but it is generally only a matter of time once things become repetitive that it becomes a grind.

Doing something 100 times can easily not be a grind. Doing that same thing 1000 more times could be an extreme grind.

And yes, that means that grinding always carries a negative connotation.

I hope it doesn't need to be explained any further.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 9:44pm by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Aug 31 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
I don't get why the word "grind" always has a negative definition implied with it.

I would suggest because grinds are often not desirable situations.

Getting back to games, grinds are often used not because the developer has decided that a grind would be appropriate and fun for that span of the game, but because the developer wants to save costs with filler, extend the game without extending content, or is simply uncreative.

Worse than that, in those situations grinds aren't even a necessary evil, they're merely a practical one. They are compeltely avoidable with enough resources, creativity, or (not and) effort.
HocusP wrote:
As it refers to real-life, a lot of things in real-life is a grind. This doesn't mean its bad, because a "grind" does not automatically mean that it refers to something bad. If you go to work everyday, then that is a "grind". If you go to school every weekday, then that is a "grind". If you go to a sports practice every weekday, then that is a "grind". If you go to band practice every weekday, then that is a "grind". Their is nothing negative with any of those things, so I don't see why he needs to reevaluate the direction of his life. The word "grind" is actually used in the real world a lot, as a positive thing, as in "I've been grinding".

I think you're really stretching the accepted definition of a grind. It may be possible to frame any activity as a grind, but I don't believe it is accurate or appropriate to do so.

Can we agree that many activities can be grinds but that they aren't necessarily?
HocusP wrote:
If you thought that ffxiv would have no grind then you were fooling yourself. They want to make a longlasting game and not a game that last a couple of months at the most. I really can't think of many games (any type of game), that didn't include a "grind" in one way or another.

I don't believe anyone realistically expected that FFXIV would not contain any trace of a grind. As you go on to say, most games involve a grind to some greater or lesser degree. What I believe many, including myself, are wary of is a game in which a significantly large part of it is a grind rather than a smaller element. Whether there is no grind or very little grind is basically equivalent to me, and whether the game is entirely, 100% grind or 95% grind is also largely equivalent to me. We aren't worried about a binary condition of whether there is or is not a grind, but one what part of the continuous spectrum the game will fall.
HocusP wrote:
They want to make a longlasting game and not a game that last a couple of months at the most.

That would be building a game that I and many others would not enjoy. I don't really care how long a game is. I don't necessarily want a long game; what I necessarily want is a good game.

Imagine your favorite movie. It is probably around 1.5 to 2 hours long. Would tacking on an extra hour of scrolling Lorem Ipsum text make it a more enjoyable movie for you? That is how I and many others see grinds. I don't need a game to waste my time; I can do that on my own and for free.

SE could have made FFXI an even longer game. Estimate how many mob kills it took you to reach 75. Let's guess 2 million. Would FFXI have been a more enjoyable game if SE made it require 20 million mob kills to reach 75? To paraphrase you from earlier is their wanting "to make a longlasting game and not a game that last a couple of years at the most," a admirable goal? Would FFXI be a good game if it took 10 years for the average player to reach 75?

Often, especially in the case of MMORPGs, grinds are just a way to water down the product. If you only have enough game to last 3 months, then design more game or leave it short and sweet, don't add more grinds.

Edited, Aug 31st 2009 11:53pm by Allegory
#42 Aug 31 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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Grinds meaning means different to different people. Some people think grind should not involve that you kill the same mob over and over again. They think you need to vary your activity. Others think that you can kill the same mob over and over again and dislike variation.

So, it all boils down to personal preference. No side is right and no side is wrong.
#43 Sep 01 2009 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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You are certainly correct Maldavian in that no one is wrong in enjoying an activity. Games are, typically, meant for players to have fun. It doesn't matter how they have fun, it doesn't matter why they have fun. If someone's idea of fun in FFXI is to spin around in circles in Jeuno all day long, then no one can really say they are wrong in the way they play.

However, I do believe that there are a overwhelming majority of players who do not enjoy the grind. They might accept it in some games, but they do so begrudgingly. The negative connotation attached to "grind," is a result of so many players finding the activity distasteful. If SE implements long grinds in FFXIV I believe very strongly that it would be at the expense of the vast majority's enjoyment, and thus a bad decision.
#44 Sep 01 2009 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Quote:
They want to make a longlasting game and not a game that last a couple of months at the most.


That would be building a game that I and many others would not enjoy. I don't really care how long a game is. I don't necessarily want a long game; what I necessarily want is a good game.


Then it becomes increasingly obvious that the pay-to-play MMO genre is not for you. The entire financial ideology behind the genre is that it is long-lasting. Grinds are inevitable, as developers are not supermen and cannot pump out content faster than players can complete it. This is simply reality.

If you create a fantastic MMO with only a few months of just absolutely godly gameplay and content, you are going to **** off most of the playerbase that signed on hoping for a long-lasting community, regardless of how awesome that content was.

There's nothing wrong with saying you want a 'good game.' Everyone wants a good game. MMOs can be good games but there are some things that you cannot remove completely for it to work financially, even if it means sacrificing gameplay and design. If you're not willing to accept this facet of reality, the genre just isn't for you.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but it's an ideological pipedream.


Edited, Sep 1st 2009 1:54am by Kirbster
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#45 Sep 01 2009 at 6:43 AM Rating: Default
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So I'd say that SE can be blamed for the grind pretty easily. You can only blame players for participating. Which if you're going to blame people for playing a game that was created to be played, that really doesn't speak very highly of the quality of the game, which leads us back to the developers.


SE is blamed for time sinks. But that is the heart and soul of a monthly pay MMORPG. Turning it into a grind is the players fault. SE envisioned you doing a variety of things on your quest to 75. Questing, crafting, missions. All to slow your progress and give you a full-fleshed experience, non-grind experience. They likely didn't realize how reward focused the player base would be. They know that now and hopefully have learned.

But there is no lack of non-grind activities in this game if you choose to partake. It's the players fault if they don't partake of them. The developers can only be blamed for not seeing that the playerbase really only focuses on the "what can I get out of it" aspect of the activity.

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#46 Sep 01 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
[...] Worse than that, in those situations grinds aren't even a necessary evil, they're merely a practical one. They are compeltely avoidable with enough resources, creativity, or (not and) effort. [...]


It's not that simple. If you aren't considering the opposite side of the equation, it's just not a fair statement.

Companies can create oodles of content for the players to enjoy. But if players find a more effecient way to work through progression and the concept spreads, it's not the companies fault for the grind. For instance:

SE has mentioned (some) Guild Leves being repeatable. I cannot confirm this, but let's say a Guild Leve is available that provides Gil & Weapon Skill increase and is repeatable. What's to say instead of spreading out the time to do "multiple" Guild Leves, someone decides "Hey, I'll just sit here and do this over and over again?" Is it SE's fault?

This is only an example of the repetative grind. Sure, progression time has to be factored for any example, and if it takes 8 weeks of grinding like above to reach cap, it's going to catch on through word of mouth, written guides, etc. online on forums and fansites. It's inevitable. But just because it "can" be done and becomes popular doesn't declare it a grind.

I'll use (and I'm sorry) WoW for example again. It's very arguable that levels 1-70 right now is a grind, and then 70-80 utilizes current content. But why is 1-70 a grind? Because people don't care about it, and they just want to get through it quickly. They read guides, optimize quest "lines" around zones, don't even read the gossip pane (in fact there are addons that bypass it all together). This leads to players declaring it a "grind" because it takes so long to get from 1-80. But that's because they are not taking advantage of the absurd amount of quests, lore, and stories embedded in the grind that make it interesting.

The grind is an exercise in efficiency. The content "can" be there and ignored. It's "not" the developers fault that this happens. You can say that they didn't make the content intriguing enough, but that does not matter to players striving for efficiency & top numbers...which is a staple of MMO communities.

The OP's argument is that FFXIV is looking like FFXIV. But it isn't...and they're ignoring that fact because they're too ignorant to realize that SE is adapting a lot of situations into the game that make it playable in almost any state (ie. 30 minutes to burn, 12 hours to burn, etc). Saying it's a bad thing that a game is similar to it's predecessor is just stupid. And I'm sorry, but it really is. It's like saying Guild Wars 2 shouldn't be like Guild Wars, EQII shouldn't be like EQ, and FFXIV shouldn't be like FFXI. It's makes no sense, and using the "grind" as an arguing point for it is simply deflecting the real point of the topic.

Edit: Edited for clarity

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 11:34am by Ryneguy
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#47 Sep 01 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Default
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"A Grind by any other name...." is an RPG? This actually reminds me of something I heard in FF:Dissidia; "If you keep losing, building up you character by fighting more enemies. That's RPG 101."

RPG is grinding since it was played with paper and dice. You fight monsters to gain points. You gain points to build up you character. The more you fight the more points. If you don't want to grind you shouldn't play an RPG.

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#48 Sep 01 2009 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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It's simple, no MMO is going to let you start the game with your character at the level cap. And if one did what would be the point of playing it?

Challenge requires effort.
Advancement requires time.

If you aren't willing to put time and effort into a game especially a MMO then don't play it.

SE had said their primary target audience for FFXIV is FFXI players. In fact many FFXI players have said they would like a remake of FFXI with an updated graphics engine.

A redundant thread is redundant.

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 12:14pm by kgav
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#49 Sep 01 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know how it is that some people still don't know what the word grind means.

A grind is not any repetitive task. Monotony or tedium, not repetition, is what determines whether something is a grind. Check out a freaking dictionary-- it's not even slang.


That is your defintion of grind, and like I said it has multiple meanings.

Quote:
A laborious task, routine, or study


Thats ripped straight off of a dictionary and is a meaning of grind. All it is, is a routine and that is a repeated task or a standard procedure. Laborious means devoted, and can also mean hard, but nothing directly negative. If you only think of grind in a "negative" way, then thats one meaning of the word, but thats not the only meaning. Same as if you only view the word "work" in a negative way, then that is just one meaning of the word. I got a dictionary, and maybe you need to look at all the meanings before downing my dictionary. Grind does not always carry a negative view, and it just depends on which meaning you take it as.

Quote:
That would be building a game that I and many others would not enjoy. I don't really care how long a game is. I don't necessarily want a long game; what I necessarily want is a good game.


If you don't care for a longlasting games then like somebody else said, maybe pay-to-play games are not for you. If your vision is completely opposite from SE goal (which is a longlasting game), then of course you wouldn't enjoy the game. They spend 6,7, and 8+ years developing and creating a game that can last with great success for 8+ years. They don't spend 8 years developing a game so it can last a couple of months.



Edited, Sep 1st 2009 1:10pm by HocusP
#50 Sep 01 2009 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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That is your defintion of grind, and like I said it has multiple meanings.


No, that's the dictionary's definition, fool. You just managed to pick the one dictionary that doesn't include that definition.

I'm pretty sure every other dictionary includes a negative definition. I'd be happy to find you five that do.

Yes, you'll find that there are multiple definitions of the word grind, some of them without negative connotation. The only people that use those definitions in context to an MMO are the ones making vacuous semantic arguments.
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#51 Sep 01 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory, in a nutshell wrote:
Most people simply fear that this game, like XI, is going to be 90% grind and 10% content. Which, no matter which way you twist it, does not define a "good" game. I am hoping for a tad more effort on the developers' part.
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