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A Grind By Any Other Name...Follow

#52HocusP, Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 11:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you are having fun doing quest over and over again, that is still a "grind" as in a routine. You are still "grinding", nothing really much changes if your having fun or not. The difference is people care more about the grind if its boring, then if its fun. If its a fun grind then people don't care, but when its boring, its a huge problem. That is right, but the problem is, what is fun and boring differ from person to person. So back to the OP, of course the game is going to have a grind, as most games do. If the grind is fun to you then you should play, but if its boring to you, then maybe you should play something else.
#53 Sep 01 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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"A Grind by any other name...." is an RPG? This actually reminds me of something I heard in FF:Dissidia; "If you keep losing, building up you character by fighting more enemies. That's RPG 101."

RPG is grinding since it was played with paper and dice. You fight monsters to gain points. You gain points to build up you character. The more you fight the more points. If you don't want to grind you shouldn't play an RPG.


I still remember this from my childhood (i think about 8 years old, possibly 9)-

I rented (well, ok my mom rented) Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy from blockbuster. I first tried dragon warrior, because i had this spiffy new guide from nintendo power (lol!) and the game looked pretty nice.

I remember spending a really long time killing jellies to save up for a bamboo stick. So i could kill more jellies. Never made it past that, because the amount of time it took to be able to venture far away from teh city safetly seemed rediculous.

I then picked up final fantasy. Bought all my starting armor / weapons with the money that they gave you to start. Then i marched over to the temple and started the game.

Now, I'm not saying that ff was without some grind, i do remember trying to earn alil more money for that silver sword by killing giants for awhile. But the fact that the game didnt have the sheer magnitude of grind that the other game had is what hooked me.

I have always, always associated final fantasy games with that very philosophy - i have played through all of them for the basic story and beat the game with minimal grinding. The only thing that truely required grinding were the special bosses / features.

That all changed with ffxi, where the entire character progression is based on a grind.

Anyway, as others have said - its not about whether or not a grind is in the game. It is about how much grinding you need to do inorder to see content and how much grinding is present in your overall game experience.
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#54 Sep 01 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Misunderstood, nothing to see here.

Edited, Sep 1st 2009 4:16pm by Zackary
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#55 Sep 01 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Then it becomes increasingly obvious that the pay-to-play MMO genre is not for you. The entire financial ideology behind the genre is that it is long-lasting. Grinds are inevitable, as developers are not supermen and cannot pump out content faster than players can complete it. This is simply reality.

Grinds save costs, but they are an uncreative solution. There are other ways to generate more content for less, which I'll discuss in a bit.
Kirbster wrote:
If you create a fantastic MMO with only a few months of just absolutely godly gameplay and content, you are going to **** off most of the playerbase that signed on hoping for a long-lasting community, regardless of how awesome that content was.

And a highly diluted game won't **** off most of the player base?
Kirbster wrote:
I completely understand where you're coming from, but it's an ideological pipedream.

I disagree. There are feasible solutions, but they require creative thinking.

One solution is to create dynamic content. I believe I have played more than 250 hours of Smash Bros. Melee. I have days logged on TF2 and in Dota. The developer created content is very significant, not compared to what most MMORPGs put out, yet thousands of players play these games as long or longer than the average MMORPG play play his/her game of choice. These game have reactive content i.e. competition between players. Unlike an AI opponent, players don't have to be designed or scripted and have an indefinite number of behaviors and tactics they might exhibit. MMORPGs have brought some of this type of content into their games in the form of pvp, but pvp doesn't have to be the only form of dynamic content in a MMORPG.

There are also games that utilize user created content. In SSBB, players may create and transmit their custom levels, like in Little Big Planet, and like in so many other games. Users constantly pump out new content for other users.

There, two ways to cheaply create a game that constantly provides new content to players. No need for grinding short cuts. I'm certainly not the most creative person in the world--I'm probably one of the least creative. If I can think of two ways to pump out content at very little cost, then surely there must be a hundred more. It is possible if you take the time to think about the problem. But developers are lazy.
Ryneguy wrote:
Companies can create oodles of content for the players to enjoy. But if players find a more efficient way to work through progression and the concept spreads, it's not the companies fault for the grind. For instance:

If players are skipping your content in favor of a grind, then you haven't created enjoyable content. You should probably conduct some more customer surveys and better identify your target demographic or else it seems you are in danger of going bankrupt.
Ryneguy wrote:
SE has mentioned (some) Guild Leves being repeatable. I cannot confirm this, but let's say a Guild Leve is available that provides Gil & Weapon Skill increase and is repeatable. What's to say instead of spreading out the time to do "multiple" Guild Leves, someone decides "Hey, I'll just sit here and do this over and over again?" Is it SE's fault?

Well I don't really see how the interval of time between when you can repeat the activity (to a reasonable extent) matters here.

But ignoring that, yes it is SE's fault. They could have added a cooldown timer or a per day limit, but they didn't. If a game company allows a player to do anything, then it isn't the player's fault when she or he takes up that offer.
Ryneguy wrote:
It's very arguable that levels 1-70 right now is a grind, and then 70-80 utilizes current content. But why is 1-70 a grind? Because people don't care about it, and they just want to get through it quickly

And why don't they care about it? Because Blizzard hasn't made it meaningful or exceptionally fun. There is no reason to stop and smell the level 10 flowers, because the level 20 flowers make the level 10 ones completely obsolete. The level 10 flowers don't even smell that good either.
#56 Sep 02 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, this game is starting to look more and more like FFXI-2.


Ok, so worse case scenario... it's a direct sequel to what is hands down the best MMO ever made.
Count me in.

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 1:58pm by Pious
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#57 Sep 02 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Ryneguy wrote:
SE has mentioned (some) Guild Leves being repeatable. I cannot confirm this, but let's say a Guild Leve is available that provides Gil & Weapon Skill increase and is repeatable. What's to say instead of spreading out the time to do "multiple" Guild Leves, someone decides "Hey, I'll just sit here and do this over and over again?" Is it SE's fault?

Well I don't really see how the interval of time between when you can repeat the activity (to a reasonable extent) matters here.

But ignoring that, yes it is SE's fault. They could have added a cooldown timer or a per day limit, but they didn't. If a game company allows a player to do anything, then it isn't the player's fault when she or he takes up that offer.

So the proposed solution is to limit what people can do? It's fine to say, "Okay, you can grind, but you must log out after 45 minutes."?

(That being said, guildleves have a certain "BP Cost", so there is a limit on how many you can do over some arbitrary amount of time.)

I'm not saying people enjoy grinding, but some people prefer it based on their own playstyle. The solution is not to say, "You may not grind". The solution is to say, "Okay, feel free to grind to the top. But there's also option A, option B, and option C for your enjoyment pleasure. They may not be as fast as the grind, but they'll get you to the top, and they'll be more interesting too."

So what if another player decides to play 24/7 just repeating the same quest over-and-over? So what if they get to the "top" 3 months before you do?

Maybe it's naivety, because I always tried to progress at an enjoyable speed and thus only got a single job to 75 (and that was after Aht Urghan (and I had played since NA PC launch)). I just haven't seen the allure to get to the top quickly, as long as I have something to do. On the other hand, if you do want to get to the top quickly, you can almost bet that some Joe will find the most efficient (not necessarily the most enjoyable) way, and that if you want to beat him, you're going to have to grind it even more than he will.

I honestly believe it's impossible to remove all forms of grinding. But to give multiple options instead of kill-mobs-for-exp-in-an-exp-party (since there were almost no other ways to get exp in FFXI aside from that) is to remove an element of grinding. That is, the fact that there is only one reasonable way to get exp.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But, to a lot of people, if they want a grind, they'll find one, even if it means they have to play 20 different quests a day instead of 1 over-and-over. It will still probably feel like grinding to them, in spite of the variety.
#58 Sep 02 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
If players are skipping your content in favor of a grind, then you haven't created enjoyable content. You should probably conduct some more customer surveys and better identify your target demographic or else it seems you are in danger of going bankrupt.


People's definition of enjoyable content varies. You're pigeonholing your assumptions to one outlook. With large populations, it's inevitable that people are going to desire different things through different means. Questing may be fun for one person but not for the other. Repeating tasks may be fun for one person but not the other. So on and so forth.

Allegory wrote:
But ignoring that, yes it is SE's fault. They could have added a cooldown timer or a per day limit, but they didn't. If a game company allows a player to do anything, then it isn't the player's fault when she or he takes up that offer.


So restriction is your answer here? When variety of actions are in question and a player decides to take a repetitive route despite multiple options...the answers isn't restriction, nor is it the developers fault. Restriction causes problems. I disagree 110% that lack of restriction "employs" the player to take advantage of a route. We're people, not mindless zombies that follow strategic paths regardless of our own wants & desires.

Allegory wrote:
And why don't they care about it? Because Blizzard hasn't made it meaningful or exceptionally fun. There is no reason to stop and smell the level 10 flowers, because the level 20 flowers make the level 10 ones completely obsolete. The level 10 flowers don't even smell that good either.


You use this example as if it's ever been different in other MMO's. Progression is the point of RPG's. Period. Level 10 never smells as good as level 20 when you're level 20. There's no magical way to make a massive population RPG game appeal to ever person it serves. If you think this is possible, why haven't you created a game that does so and banked on it? We all hope for the same thing...something we can enjoy. But up until now, most MMO's push the "End Game, End Game!" content system. Most MMO's are designed around this concept, with a few that stray from the pack and ultimately (most times) tank near immediately. Content you've passed is no longer fun because you already did it...it's a universal fact. Sure, you can redo it if there is replay factor built into it's purpose. But for the most part, once you've done it...it's done.
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#59 Sep 02 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Pious wrote:
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Honestly, this game is starting to look more and more like FFXI-2.


Ok, so worse case scenario... it's a direct sequel to what is hands down the best MMO ever made.
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#60 Sep 02 2009 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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People's definition of enjoyable content varies. You're pigeonholing your assumptions to one outlook. With large populations, it's inevitable that people are going to desire different things through different means. Questing may be fun for one person but not for the other. Repeating tasks may be fun for one person but not the other. So on and so forth.


I think this is a bit misleading.
There isn't a game out there that has a virgin slice of the population, they are actively courting a specific demographic. This is no secret, SE made it very clear before the game has even been released exactly what their target audience is. If a game has firmly established quest-based progression, If you didn't like quest-based progression, you wouldn't subscribe to it.

Fun isn't an amorphous concept.
It's hardly a science, but, that doesn't mean game designers throw in things willy nilly and cross their fingers hoping it works. Games as a Challenge is a type of fun, Games as Make-Believe is a type of fun, Games as an Uncharted Territory is a type of fun. Games as a Repetitive Monotony is not a type of fun. It's the speed at which content is delivered. If you can accept repetitive monotony, you merely have cultivated a degree of tolerance for it in order to access the other types of fun.

You don't grind because you like grinding, you grind because of what it gives you.


Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 7:48pm by Zemzelette
#61 Sep 02 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Ryneguy wrote:
People's definition of enjoyable content varies. You're pigeonholing your assumptions to one outlook. With large populations, it's inevitable that people are going to desire different things through different means. Questing may be fun for one person but not for the other. Repeating tasks may be fun for one person but not the other. So on and so forth.

I agree with you mostly. What is fun to an individual varies from person to person. Grinding can be fun for some people and not for others. Quests can be fun for some people and not for others. However, I disagree that I have done any pigeonholing or been overly presumptuous.

You said "Companies can create oodles of content for the players to enjoy. But if players find a more efficient way to work through progression and the concept spreads, it's not the companies fault for the grind." In response, I said "If players are skipping your content in favor of a grind, then you haven't created enjoyable content."

Where have I pigeonholed? Where have I made unreasonable assumptions? The only assumption I have made is that if players are choosing option A (in this case grinding) over option B (in this case "oodles of content") that players enjoy A more than B. Is that not a fairly logical and safe assumption?

If a developer creates what they believe to be oodles of content, but none of the players like it or choose to participate int it, then the developer really hasn't created good content for the players.
Ryneguy wrote:
So restriction is your answer here? When variety of actions are in question and a player decides to take a repetitive route despite multiple options...the answers isn't restriction, nor is it the developers fault. Restriction causes problems. I disagree 110% that lack of restriction "employs" the player to take advantage of a route. We're people, not mindless zombies that follow strategic paths regardless of our own wants & desires.

It's not my solution, it is a solution. It is to illustrate the developers always have the power to change the game.

If guildleves can be repeated without any need to break, then it is not the players' fault for choosing an option SE has given them. This would be like removing the cooldowns on all moves in a game and then blaming the players for spamming spells. If you allow players to do something, then don't be surprised when they do it. Developers have complete control over what is possible and impossible in their games. Developers have complete control over what options are enticing and not enticing in their games. When any player does anything at all in a game it is only because the developer made it possible and made it enticing for that player.
Ryneguy wrote:
You use this example as if it's ever been different in other MMO's. Progression is the point of RPG's. Period. Level 10 never smells as good as level 20 when you're level 20. There's no magical way to make a massive population RPG game appeal to ever person it serves. If you think this is possible, why haven't you created a game that does so and banked on it? We all hope for the same thing...something we can enjoy. But up until now, most MMO's push the "End Game, End Game!" content system. Most MMO's are designed around this concept, with a few that stray from the pack and ultimately (most times) tank near immediately. Content you've passed is no longer fun because you already did it...it's a universal fact. Sure, you can redo it if there is replay factor built into it's purpose. But for the most part, once you've done it...it's done.

First, you are discussing the concept in a binary fashion, that either games do or do not create incentive to level. It isn't a binary concept. At the very least we have a spectrum of how worthwhile it is to play at the lower levels.

Second, class now so I'll edit more in later. I'm such a tease.
#62 Sep 02 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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@Allegory: You give examples like SSB: Brawl or Little Big Planet for "ways to provide creative content" or w/e.

Well I got SSB: Brawl and LBP...I played both for less than 50h...not because they are bad or I don't like them...in fact I really like both of them a lot...the problem was...after playing them for more than 20h...I saw no point in going on...why should I try to "hit the sack" further than 1000yards for a **** baseballbat trophy when it didn't was neccesarry for anything? The example you are giving is not "creative" content but simply "competitive" content playing online against real living persons...THAT is the reason why MMOs got grind...

Why do you always come with the argument "blame SE"...god I am so tired of those ***********

Square-Enix IS PROVIDING content(in FFXI), in fact more content than most of the other MMOs so far. The problem is in facct the players...SE can do nothing else than provide the possibilities...the way you are going to work woth them or use them is prohibited to the
#63 Sep 02 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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double post due to PS3 limitations...

...player.
SE giving restrictions for some of these choices is arguably a better way to "force" people into the content, rather than giving people the choice and let them play the way they want.

The example of WoW is quite good here...Blizzard provides **** of a lot of quests...and even more "lore" behind those quests...the problem is players don't care for it, not because it is not "well provided" content, but simply 80% of the playerbase don't give a **** about that content, they only want to reach the max ASAP.

FFXI grind itself was not even nearly horrible as everyone states it...fact is...its not the grind itself...but everything that came with the grind...waiting hours for a PT, getting into a low skill PT which dies a lot etc etc.

Actually leveling itself was pretty fun for me in FFXI. If I found a PT and they were good, lvling was fun...for me it was a lot of fun. Just the random things that came with it sucked...
#64 Sep 02 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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sry triple post(god i hate using PS3 for forums >.<)

In the end MMORPGs got 2 ways to be played in mostcases of all MMORGs that were released. Either the "I will do everything the game has to offer" way or the "I will do whats neccesarry to be among the top ASAP"

What you want Allegory is not a game that is "well done", but you want a game that lets you play the things that are "well done"(which FFXI has got a lot of), but ALSO let you be among the top ASAP while playing the things that are "well done".
Well the player has to decide which is more important to him. If you want to be among the top ASAP, you have to adapt to "their way of playing"...it's not SE fault people play that way...its the competition behind it. FFXI offered a lot of content to certain lvl caps...Lvl cap 20,30,40,50 etc all had special events(including CoP which was more than well done)...problem is...people don't give a ****...not because its not "well done"...but because it doesn't count **** for endgame...MMORPGs are about endgame..
#65 Sep 02 2009 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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double post due to PS3 limitations...


Did anyone else find that ironic in a foreboding kind of way?



Edited, Sep 2nd 2009 9:36pm by Zemzelette
#66 Sep 02 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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LoL xD

Although I am mostly satisfied with the PS3...if I am not online with my PC, but the PS3 and I start to browse through forums and post something it really starts to get annoying when you are typing and then all of a sudden it just doesn't go on because the **** "software keyboard" only allows a certain amount of letters "per textbox"...problem is with the PS3 browser...you're not typing directly into the textbox, but into the software keyboard and after hitting enter it "copies" it into the textbox...and this really sucks when writing in forums ;_;
#67 Sep 02 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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Urg. As usual, so much I want to say. Picking my battles.

Quote:
So what if another player decides to play 24/7 just repeating the same quest over-and-over? So what if they get to the "top" 3 months before you do?


I think that part of the problem here harks back to the social responsibility thread. And it would probably be best that it stays there, but the thing is that it's generally bad to create incentive to rush through content. Most players don't want to feel rushed to reach a destination and don't want to be disadvantaged just for having normal play patterns. But even people who don't really -want- to grind things out asap will if you provide the incentive to do so. And you could certainly argue that that's "their choice" but ultimately it's not a good choice to offer. It's just an aspect of human psychology that borders a kind of behavioral entrapment.

And just to kind of clarify this, because people seem to have difficulty grasping this-- no one wants to grind, by definition. If they wanted to do it, it wouldn't be called a grind. People accept the grind as a means to their end. So understand that while whether or not something is a grind is subjective, whether or not people like to grind is not-- they don't.

Quote:
I honestly believe it's impossible to remove all forms of grinding.


It's not. It's all a matter of variance of gameplay concepts and elements. It's very simple. The more legitimate content you have, the less potential for grinding. It's feasible, but it probably doesn't seem that way because developers have traditionally done a bad to mediocre job of it.

Quote:
Level 10 never smells as good as level 20 when you're level 20.


While there's some inherent truth to this, many players enjoyed the level-capped COP missions more than any of the other FFXI content. Progression is an important element of RPGs, but certainly not the end all, be all. There are many players who hate these elements, and prefer the strategy elements and the stories. The progression is typically only fun for them when it goes along with the story, or when there are elements of customization that provide for enjoyable strategic challenges.

Quote:
FFXI grind itself was not even nearly horrible as everyone states it...fact is...its not the grind itself...but everything that came with the grind...waiting hours for a PT, getting into a low skill PT which dies a lot etc etc.


While I'm sure that's true for some people, the truth is that the battles are BORING. In a game that, like most games of its genre, centers entirely on the, you know, battles, it's pretty bad when they're boring. While those other things are certainly frustrating, they don't change the fact that there are not enough varied elements to hold a lot of players' attention. Really, the learning curve is the most challenging aspect of XI, and once you're over it, it's pretty yawn from an intraplayer perspective.

Now, understand that I'm talking primarily about "grind" battles. i.e., there's almost no difference between grinding on crabs, dhalmels, or crawlers.

Quote:
Well I got SSB: Brawl and LBP...I played both for less than 50h...not because they are bad or I don't like them...in fact I really like both of them a lot...the problem was...after playing them for more than 20h...I saw no point in going on...


Most of the content value in brawl is in the multiplayer. Online battles or with your friends. Generally if you don't have friends who you can have a competitive pace with, a lot of the value of the game is lost. If you're really good at the game you go on to tournaments and play against other ridiculously skilled players. Part of the appeal here is that you're not improving an imaginary character, but you're actually improving yourself as a player. Incidentally, this is why it's kind of lol to categorize hardcore players based on their willingness to grind rather than their willingness to improve themselves.

I don't know how LBP operates, but my impression of it is that, similar to Brawl, while there are online and interactive elements to them, there are really no team strategy or social aspects at all. Those elements on their own add hundreds to thousands of hours to gameplay in virtually any decent game. When you actually couple them with elements like user-generated content, the effect is exponential.
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#68 Sep 03 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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dude, if you don't want to get tired of playing, do something different everyday. One day you can go do quests, the next day you can go kill monster for exp and loot, then you can go fishing, crafting of exploring the vast world of Eorzea.
It's just a matter of how you want to spend your time in the game, not who gets first to level 200 in great axe combat skill.

The game has not even been released and you are making silly assumptions.
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#69 Sep 03 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Default
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Xentok wrote:
The game has not even been released and you are making silly assumptions.
Actually, most of the people in this thread are intelligently debating on gameplay improvements. I'd hardly say that's silly, nor have the vast majority of posters made anything that could be considered assumptions. More like educated estimations at this point more than anything.


Kachi wrote:
Most of the content value in brawl is in the multiplayer. Online battles or with your friends. Generally if you don't have friends who you can have a competitive pace with, a lot of the value of the game is lost. If you're really good at the game you go on to tournaments and play against other ridiculously skilled players. Part of the appeal here is that you're not improving an imaginary character, but you're actually improving yourself as a player. Incidentally, this is why it's kind of lol to categorize hardcore players based on their willingness to grind rather than their willingness to improve themselves.
See, the problem with this logic is that there are a plethora of other game genres that also appeal to these people. First person shooters are a good example; you improve your skills at these games by practicing, not by leveling a character. I don't know if there's really room for that in an RPG based MMO past the "learning curve." At least, it would be really hard to sell it as an RPG if that's the approach they're going to take, because then it may or may not become something completely different.


if that makes any sense, which I don't think it will because it's 5am and I am exhausted.
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#70 Sep 03 2009 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But ignoring that, yes it is SE's fault. They could have added a cooldown timer or a per day limit, but they didn't. If a game company allows a player to do anything, then it isn't the player's fault when she or he takes up that offer.


What the F**K?

Just because I can do anything in Real Life, it isn't my fault that I shot that man. Or those babies. Or made them into a delicious stew. It is the universe's fault for allowing me to do anything. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. Please acquit me now.
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#71 Sep 03 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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As Kachi said:

Quote:
And just to kind of clarify this, because people seem to have difficulty grasping this-- no one wants to grind, by definition. If they wanted to do it, it wouldn't be called a grind.


The problem we all seem to have here is that we all have a different definition of 'grind'. To some people having an experience bar and having to progress through levels is a grind. Others enjoy leveling and don't feel the same.

To some people learning a strategy and repeating endgame levels over and over is a grind. Others enjoy this.

Some people think crafting is a grind. Others love things like gardening.


The positive note that FFXIV has hit upon is that you can just focus on what you want to do in the game. (Even leveling to max without fighting a single mob). BUT in order to enjoy the entirety of the game, you are going to have to perhaps do some things you don't like... like crafting, or leveling, or endgame. Nobody says you HAVE to do such to enjoy the game, but chances are that many of us will end up doing an activity we don't enjoy as much as other content so we can see more of the game. If SSMB or Halo had a special level where you just had to sit there and hit the jump button consecutively for an hour, but gave a trophy, undoubtedly there would be players who did that just to get the trophy. It's unenjoyable, and it's optional. I wouldn't go for it, but I wouldn't ***** that it existed either.

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#72 Sep 03 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Where have I pigeonholed? Where have I made unreasonable assumptions? The only assumption I have made is that if players are choosing option A (in this case grinding) over option B (in this case "oodles of content") that players enjoy A more than B. Is that not a fairly logical and safe assumption?

If a developer creates what they believe to be oodles of content, but none of the players like it or choose to participate int it, then the developer really hasn't created good content for the players.


Allegory earlier wrote:
If players are skipping your content in favor of a grind, then you haven't created enjoyable content. You should probably conduct some more customer surveys and better identify your target demographic or else it seems you are in danger of going bankrupt.


If the developers create 4 different methods of progression, and 25% of the population participates in each method of progression, you can argue that that portion of the population doesn't like the other 3 methods of progression...even if all 100% of the content is in use. You're only focusing on the 3 methods they don't like. If people want to grind, they'll grind. If people want to quest, they'll quest. But you cannot say that just because the people that grind dislike the other 75% of the content does not mean that it's not developed or conceived well by the developer. You're not being illogical (nor did I say that), I just think you're arguing with a narrowed scope of things.

Allegory wrote:
If guildleves can be repeated without any need to break, then it is not the players' fault for choosing an option SE has given them.


But if they're doing it out of choice and not lack of options, it's not a grind to them. Everyone has a choice.

Allegory wrote:
Developers have complete control over what options are enticing and not enticing in their games.


This cannot be true. You're suggesting SE (or a developer) knows what people are going to consider enticing or not enticing. If they know, then why are we even arguing this point?

Allegory wrote:
When any player does anything at all in a game it is only because the developer made it possible and made it enticing for that player.


Yes, yes! But they do it because they find it enticing. If you have a lust for cliff jumping, or sky diving, or climbing steep cliffs in the Alps...then you do it because you find it enticing. Not because it's there. Not because God shaped the world in such a way to give you thrills. Because in you, you see it as an opportunity for you to enjoy something. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people that don't find the above activities fun. A thrill...sure, but not necessarily fun and would rather do something else. The developer can put the plate in front of you. If you eat the meat and not the vegetables because you prefer it that way...it's not the developers fault. They made the vegetables, too.

Allegory wrote:
First, you are discussing the concept in a binary fashion, that either games do or do not create incentive to level. It isn't a binary concept. At the very least we have a spectrum of how worthwhile it is to play at the lower levels.


I stated that most MMO's, in general from development to launch to life cycle, will push End Game content as a means of further progression. FFXI is one of the rarities that promotes regression of progression through level capped encounters (I'm just stating an example). I'm not limiting it to a binary statement, I'm pointing out the singularity in the statement and concept...that Level Cap and End Game are the typicaly outline for progression in MMO's and RPG's in general. When you play Diablo...you want to level up. When you play FFXI, you want to level up. When you play WAR, LotRO, EQII, Guild Wars, AoC, WoW, Runescape, and almost every other MMO out there...you play to level up, progress, and move on with the content. It's a singular element.

Where it works in reverse is things like CoP level capped encounters in FFXI. Where it doesn't work in reverse is trying to level/progress/etc., below the cap and end game content when it's no longer of value. One can argue that SE alone has created a feasible system where below-cap content is still fun (ie. CoP missions). How many other MMO's can you say do this? And stating that...I re-address my former question. If this is the case, why are we even arguing the point?
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#73 Sep 03 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Right, and you know, there was a very long time in my playing career as a gamer that I had no problem with repetitive gameplay, and I know that's true for many other people who have been gaming for a long time. And that is a large part of the problem that will eventually kill an entire generational demographic of players.

It wears on you. Eventually, at some point, you'll get sick of it. You'll feel like you've done it all before and say to **** with it. A lot of experienced players are lost this way, and they don't need to be. If the gameplay is less of a monotonous grind, it doesn't really disadvantage the players who don't mind the repetition (and as always, there are a dozen other games they can play that offer that, at least)

Quote:
See, the problem with this logic is that there are a plethora of other game genres that also appeal to these people. First person shooters are a good example; you improve your skills at these games by practicing, not by leveling a character. I don't know if there's really room for that in an RPG based MMO past the "learning curve." At least, it would be really hard to sell it as an RPG if that's the approach they're going to take, because then it may or may not become something completely different.


if that makes any sense, which I don't think it will because it's 5am and I am exhausted.


Well hold on now, because there really aren't many options here except for FPS and sim games that provide a social element. Fighting games are getting better about it but they still have a long way to go. But more importantly here are the missed opportunities for strategy in the fantasy genre (there are some successful strategy MMOs, but nothing like your traditional MMO). At their core RPGs have always been about strategy as much as progression, and that is the kind of player growth that MMOs need. But it has to be engaging and have a pretty continuous learning curve, unlike the plateau that FFXI experiences.

I'm not saying that character progression needs to be removed at all, but there needs to be a great deal more player progression. I mean, I can't remember the last time that I actually learned something new about playing my job in FFXI, aside from memorizing game details, but there was no challenging intrapersonal strategy. In fact I've probably grown worse over time because the boredom of combat tends to make me inattentive. There's potential for tactical strategy, but honestly, how many people get to actually figure out a strategy without someone else looking up a winning online strat? Even the team strategy elements aren't especially challenging. All of those things could be expanded upon and tweaked to make a far more engaging game.

The few people who really don't care to be challenged (aside from their time and patience) and just want to mind-numbingly grow a character have other options too. They can grow a garden, or get a Tamagotchi. :d Most people really do want to be challenged in some way; it's a general principle of motivation.

It's 5AM here, too, so I reserve the right to withdraw any of these statements when I'm more lucid.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#74 Sep 03 2009 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Right, and you know, there was a very long time in my playing career as a gamer that I had no problem with repetitive gameplay, and I know that's true for many other people who have been gaming for a long time. And that is a large part of the problem that will eventually kill an entire generational demographic of players.

It wears on you. Eventually, at some point, you'll get sick of it. You'll feel like you've done it all before and say to **** with it. A lot of experienced players are lost this way, and they don't need to be. If the gameplay is less of a monotonous grind, it doesn't really disadvantage the players who don't mind the repetition
This is probably the single best thing said in this thread, and sums up exactly how I feel.
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#75 Sep 03 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh sure, you say that while you're totally sleep deprived :p
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#76 Sep 03 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually wake up at 5am. Having a job is kind of a ***** like that.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#77 Sep 03 2009 at 4:48 AM Rating: Default
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It sounds to me that they have made the way we will level in FFXIV exactly like we do skill-ups in FFXI.

That does not make me happy. I Hate having to skill-up each weapon and ability every time I gained a level or two, especially after they implemented Level Synch.

So the thing most of hate doing in FFXI is the way we will spend all of our time in FFXIV, greeeeatttt....... thanks allot.
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#78 Sep 03 2009 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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dandantlm wrote:
It sounds to me that they have made the way we will level in FFXIV exactly like we do skill-ups in FFXI.

That does not make me happy. I Hate having to skill-up each weapon and ability every time I gained a level or two, especially after they implemented Level Synch.

So the thing most of hate doing in FFXI is the way we will spend all of our time in FFXIV, greeeeatttt....... thanks allot.
You pretty much fail at reading comprehension if you think that's all there is to it.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#79 Sep 03 2009 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Well...but the thing is...for a change SE is providing different ways to gather skill points. Not just by repetitive killing of mobs(like FFXI), but with Quests and I would assume even 1 or 2 more options might be available to improve your skill bar.

And of course...skilling up weapons in FFXI AFTER lvling was really boring...but you can't compare it to whats known til now in FFXIV. You won't skill up AFTER you lvld, you skill up and THAT is your lvl. Nobody will force you to skill up ALL weapons simultanously, or skill up one weapon to max before you do something else... I will start with the class I want to start and probably stick with it to the max, before I start skilling up something else seriously.
I can only see me skilling up crafts beside my actual class, because its something else and definetely will provide other ways of skilling up that are "different" as to skilling up classes. But at some time they will all be repetitive and you probably will do the same thing over and over once you skilled up several classes/crafts.

I will play FFXIV to the max in each and every component...I like exploring, I like questing, I like lvling etc...but all in small doses, I wont exaggerate one thing before I start with another, I want to progress in every aspect at a moderate pace. And I am sure FFXIV will make it possible, also I can choose to grind my way through everything if I want to, but I don't want to^^

SE gives me the option, it's my choice in the end if I take it or not.

edit: @Kachi: Sorry forgot you xD The thing with SSB:Brawl and LPB was not that I couldn't fight against friends or other people online...the thing was I saw no point in doing it :/ Ok...not many of my friends bought SSB:Brawl for Wii or LBP for PS3, but the ones that did quit to play pretty soon as well. I am more the competitive guy when it comes to online play...SSB:Brawl and LBP are not the way of competitive online play I like, as well as FPS's...it's not my world...my prefered way of competition is more like "direct comparison" to other players and what they achieved, rather in fighting each other and see who comes out victorious :)
At least thats how I prefer it :) And thats how it is usually in MMORPGs...while I was playing WoW I played Arena. And I really liked it a lot...it was a nice change compared to raiding, but I didn't play it to be among the top in Arena, but because I played it with RL friends and therefore it was a lot of fun to me. When we lost to some people I didn't give a ****, although we were not bad, but we were not really trying to get that good to be competitive against the top Arena players. In the end I enjoy playing together with friends, rather than be in competition with friends, I usually only like the competition when comparing to "just everyone" on a server rather than my friends. I am also usually the type that tries to help my friends to achieve more so we all stand out a bit as a whole, not just a single person, but overall achievement done by a group!
I hope endgame in FFXIV will give me that kind of feeling :)

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 1:18pm by Shezard

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 1:23pm by Shezard
#80 Sep 03 2009 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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dandantlm wrote:
It sounds to me that they have made the way we will level in FFXIV exactly like we do skill-ups in FFXI.

That does not make me happy. I Hate having to skill-up each weapon and ability every time I gained a level or two, especially after they implemented Level Synch.

So the thing most of hate doing in FFXI is the way we will spend all of our time in FFXIV, greeeeatttt....... thanks allot.


How in the **** did you come to that conclusion? Also, I believe most hated skilling up in FFXI because they gimped themselves to 75 and regretted it and had to go back and get up to snuff for the basics, what most hated skilling up however is Parry/Guard, weapons only ever fell behind if you chose to one thing, e.g SAMs with gimped GKT skill because it's 'polearm onry for colibri'.

Which brings up the point! For example, SE put in Level sync so say your friend joins, he hits level 10 but you're 75 unless you have a job that is around 10 you can't party with him, level sync however takes care of that! It was the PLAYERS who decided to make it a leveling standard which then caused people to stay at level 10-40 forever and be gimped to high **** and are FORCED to skill up, when before if you leveled naturally it was designed perfectly, you skilled up as you go, only ever falling behind if you were taking on less than adequate targets.

So in essence, as it's been said in this thread numerous times SE gives the options, players turn it into a grind there's no way to spin it to and leave the players out the equation.

SE develops the game, players turn it into what they want, i.e Ninja = Tank, Colibri = the only form of exp, you're gimped if you don't have billions of gil worth of gear, in order to be a useful corsair you NEED a joyeuse even though their focus is buffing etc. So while you can say SE creates exp grinds, they also give you so many ways to level, its the players who choose to not utilize it.

#81 Sep 03 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Things I'd like to touch on

A) If you want to grind because you love the chase of reaching the top first or being the best, you go girl

There is no reason people shouldn't be able to grind if they want to let them have fun

B) Don't force me to level to be able to enjoy lots content
There was ton's of content in ffxi to do on your way to the top. However there were very few missions in my early ffxi career I remember being able to do without having a lvl 75 walk me through by the hand and you could argue that it’s because I was attempting to complete missions earlier than the developers intended, but why put a lvl 40 min cap if I can't do the mission at level 40. This could be fixed by making the content more accessible I’ll talk about that next

c) It should be harder to fight the boss than get to him
A huge reason for getting the 75 escort is not that you can't do the battles at that level it's because you can't get to the location. CoP is a great example. A level 30 cap, so why am I trying to ninja my way to the top floor because I can't take down the regular mobs because there are a billion twice my level running around waiting to rape me, walking for an hour is not fun. Anyone else remember running to last zone behind the poor sap who is training 30 mobs. It was like playing a bad MGS with elves and cat people.

d) Conclusion
grinding is something created by the player base but the developer has significant influence on whether you participate or not, If I could kill mobs on my own while exploring content on my own while I progress I would. Essentially I should not have to level to explore and experience content, I should be able to level while I explore and play content. FFxiv has a guildleave system that’s customizable, the job system is flexible, meaning it is looking like I can do more and let level progression come naturally as I enjoy the game, so I’m not focused on my leveling I’m focusing on exploring and experiencing the game, not working to do so. Just because there is a system of progression doesn't mean it’s essential to a good play experience, meaning I only have to grind if I really want too.

#82 Sep 03 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
lolopinions


And your opinion is?
Please... do share. I always enjoy the amusement I get out of someone proclaiming that one of the many low grade, forgettable MMOs out there are of a better quality than FFXI.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 7:46pm by Pious
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#83 Sep 03 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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sirhenrywalton wrote:
Things I'd like to touch on

A) If you want to grind because you love the chase of reaching the top first or being the best, you go girl

There is no reason people shouldn't be able to grind if they want to let them have fun

B) Don't force me to level to be able to enjoy lots content
There was ton's of content in ffxi to do on your way to the top. However there were very few missions in my early ffxi career I remember being able to do without having a lvl 75 walk me through by the hand and you could argue that it’s because I was attempting to complete missions earlier than the developers intended, but why put a lvl 40 min cap if I can't do the mission at level 40. This could be fixed by making the content more accessible I’ll talk about that next

c) It should be harder to fight the boss than get to him
A huge reason for getting the 75 escort is not that you can't do the battles at that level it's because you can't get to the location. CoP is a great example. A level 30 cap, so why am I trying to ninja my way to the top floor because I can't take down the regular mobs because there are a billion twice my level running around waiting to rape me, walking for an hour is not fun. Anyone else remember running to last zone behind the poor sap who is training 30 mobs. It was like playing a bad MGS with elves and cat people.

d) Conclusion
grinding is something created by the player base but the developer has significant influence on whether you participate or not, If I could kill mobs on my own while exploring content on my own while I progress I would. Essentially I should not have to level to explore and experience content, I should be able to level while I explore and play content. FFxiv has a guildleave system that’s customizable, the job system is flexible, meaning it is looking like I can do more and let level progression come naturally as I enjoy the game, so I’m not focused on my leveling I’m focusing on exploring and experiencing the game, not working to do so. Just because there is a system of progression doesn't mean it’s essential to a good play experience, meaning I only have to grind if I really want too.




Having a level 75 do everything for you was your prerogative. In the early stages of the game, when high levels were not a dime a dozen, it took GROUPS to complete objectives together.

You also ask to not have to level in order to enjoy the content, which is kind of strange if you ask me. If you don't have to level at all, why would you? In a case where you have a stagnant "sandbox" game, the content quickly becomes stale and boring.
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#84 Sep 03 2009 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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your point about the level 75 is true, however the example of CoP with the lvl 30 cap still an issue of game play I wish addressed, Having the lvl cap meant no high lvl help, but the issue of the high lvl mobs still stands true a standard 6 man party would have an extreme trouble taking on the mobs on the highest floor and it is only complicated by the number that surrounded making the situation an unwinnable battle so no fighting took place, sure you can attempt an alliance but the mission was meant for a 6 man party so the mobs and situation should be suited for just that a 6 man party and if they are to be tough to fight make it so that the battle field is favorable not littered with linking mobs every two feet. Otherwise then you make the content a lot less accessible, don't build a sidewalk if you’re not intended to walk on it.

As for your second point my words may have been misleading, by
Quote:
I should not have to level to explore and experience content


I mean I should not specifically have to go out of my way, set aside time and exclusively try to level, so I can play the rest of the game. Leveling should come in conjunction with exploring the content; I should level at relatively the same pace as I experience the game. So the more content I venture through the more my character grows. Don't take this as me saying you must get experience from turning in quests, but if I complete 10 missions my characters growth and level from those missions should reflect that. You may want to argue that if there are only 10 missions and I complete them all I would be top level and that would be to fast of a leveling curve; in that case the issue for me is not the growth rate but lack of content.
#85 Sep 03 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
And your opinion is?
Please... do share. I always enjoy the amusement I get out of someone proclaiming that one of the many low grade, forgettable MMOs out there are of a better quality than FFXI.


It's alright to like a game, but you should be able to point out it's faults just as readily as it's achievements.

For example: In terms of graphical quality FFXI is superb, the fact such old graphics are holding up all these years later is a testament to SE's ability to not only work within hardware limitations, but flourish. On the other hand, in terms of customer service quality, SE's relative inexperience in the MMO sphere had caused XI to quickly fall behind even it's more under-funded competitors.

Unless you think SE is capable of no wrong, is synonymous with perfection, and generally doesn't inhabit reality with the rest of us; then promptly disregard this.





Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 11:33pm by Zemzelette
#86 Sep 04 2009 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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It's pretty clear from the demo that was played and SE's own statements the Guildeves will the main grind of XIV. SE's handling of MMOs is a lot like Marvel Comics before they hit it big-they just copy the current big thing. XI was an EQ clone, and XIV is a WoW clone.

By clone I don't mean 100% the same, but a very close approximation.

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 5:43am by VrKurosawa
#87 Sep 04 2009 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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VrKurosawa wrote:
[...] XIV is a WoW clone.


From what's been shown, FFXIV looks to be no such thing, and being someone who's played dozens of MMO's over the last 10 years or so...I can't imagine anyone familiar with WoW making such a statement. Not even in close approximation, from the combat system to the Guild Leve system...looks nothing like WoW. LotRO is a WoW clone. WAR is a WoW clone.

VrKurosawa wrote:
SE's handling of MMOs is a lot like Marvel Comics before they hit it big-they just copy the current big thing.


Huh? No really...huh? I can't even absorb this statements absurdity. Smiley: oyvey
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#88 Sep 04 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Just one thing about the Lvl Caps. I agree with the fact, that some CoP Lvl capped Missions required you to walk through a zone, that was way higher than the Lvl capped Mission itself, for example Diabolos...you have to walk through Beaucedine Glacier...well the upper levels, but still not that easy if you're only Lvl 40. A Lvl 40 group should be able to take the mobs on that lvl of the entrance to Pso'Xia though.

But CoP Promyvion Missions...sorry but you could kill each and every single enemy on the top floor of Promyvion. The thing was, most didn't want to because they were tough(in fact most didn't want to kill any enemy in Promyvion because they thought its a waste). Not unbeatable, not even slightly unbeatable...just a strong mob. If you linked 1-2 mobs then you were screwed(only because they were immune to sleep)...but if you go step by step and pull/kill/move on/pull/kill etc...then you could reach the entrance to the BC easily...all it took was preperation.
#89 Sep 04 2009 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's alright to like a game, but you should be able to point out it's faults just as readily as it's achievements.

For example: In terms of graphical quality FFXI is superb, the fact such old graphics are holding up all these years later is a testament to SE's ability to not only work within hardware limitations, but flourish. On the other hand, in terms of customer service quality, SE's relative inexperience in the MMO sphere had caused XI to quickly fall behind even it's more under-funded competitors.

Unless you think SE is capable of no wrong, is synonymous with perfection, and generally doesn't inhabit reality with the rest of us; then promptly disregard this.


It may seem like it, but I'm not a fanboy... I just happen to be a huge fan of quality, and I have seen many (supposed ) MMOs crawl out of the sludge since the launch of FFXI, and imo.... not a single one of them (including wow) comes even close to the same level of quality as FFXI.

Although I actually see the challenging and even difficult climb to end game content as a positive (it was actually a form of quality control for the player base), I will agree that some of the tasks where much too tedious, and that SE really didn't address these issues until it became a matter of players leaving the game, and even then they seemed reluctant to react.
For example: one of the later limit breaks that required a very rare drop of parchment in The Eldieme Necropolis.
I remember players actually quitting after repeated attempts to obtain this item, and it took SE entirely way too **** long to patch this so that the drop was more frequent, but they eventually did.

So I agree that they aren't the most responsive developer when it comes to addressing complaints, but I also don't think that it's such a drastic level of neglect that it overshadows the incredible amount of highly enjoyable content that (even after 6 years) can still only be found in FFXI.

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 3:19pm by Pious
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#90 Sep 04 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Ryneguy wrote:
VrKurosawa wrote:
[...] XIV is a WoW clone.


From what's been shown, FFXIV looks to be no such thing, and being someone who's played dozens of MMO's over the last 10 years or so...I can't imagine anyone familiar with WoW making such a statement. Not even in close approximation, from the combat system to the Guild Leve system...looks nothing like WoW. LotRO is a WoW clone. WAR is a WoW clone.

VrKurosawa wrote:
SE's handling of MMOs is a lot like Marvel Comics before they hit it big-they just copy the current big thing.


Huh? No really...huh? I can't even absorb this statements absurdity. Smiley: oyvey


I'm sorry, it was kinda silly of me to assume people would get that. Anyway, the point is that for years before Marvel created the FF, all they did was copy whatever was popular in other comics, be it monsters or crime comics, etc. This is how SE has done so far with XI and XIV. When XI was created, EQ was the MMO standard and SE made a similar game. Now WoW is the standard and SE has made what anyone but the most blind supporter can see is a similar game.

XIV will feature a very similar (to WoW) quest based exp system that will not force grouping. Also they are making crafting more part of the game, like WoW, and they are going to set it up where you build your character in a certain way, which is also not unlike WoW. I'm not saying these are bad ideas or bad features-certainly they are not to my tastes but the huge popularity of WoW is hard to argue with. They did leave out what is WoW's most popular feature, which is PvP, and of course there aren't defined levels or jobs, so XIV is in some ways different, but they are a lot alike.

I look forward to seeing people who loved XI and slammed WoW defend XIV when it is a very similar game.
#91 Sep 04 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
XIV will feature a very similar (to WoW) quest based exp system that will not force grouping. Also they are making crafting more part of the game, like WoW, and they are going to set it up where you build your character in a certain way, which is also not unlike WoW. I'm not saying these are bad ideas or bad features-certainly they are not to my tastes but the huge popularity of WoW is hard to argue with. They did leave out what is WoW's most popular feature, which is PvP, and of course there aren't defined levels or jobs, so XIV is in some ways different, but they are a lot alike.


Only thing similar to WoW that I see is the very basic quest structure (even though it's still different to normal questing you see in WoW- is group play in any way supported by the quest system? Not really) as well as the alpha UI.

The rest of the post can be only summed up by an earlier statement...

Quote:
Huh? No really...huh? I can't even absorb this statements absurdity.


Crafting is in no way more part of the game in WoW than it was in XI- a minigame, nothing more. What SE is doing with XIV is taking a 'Sandbox'-MMO approach to crafting which is completely different from the 'Themepark' approach that WoW, EQ, FFXI and similar MMO's have.

About building up your character in a certain way... I've no idea what you could mean by this. In WoW you develop your character only by killing monsters. This is not the case in FFXIV. You develop your character by using your weapon of choice, be it killing monsters, using the weapon to pick up or craft things. How the WoW way of building your character differs from say, Everquest is a mystery to me as well- it's basically the same thing.

In FFXIV you won't even level jobs, but your skills. That already makes it completely different from WoW, EQ and the sorts. It's more like Ultima Online than anything. You can also change your skills whenever you want- one more feature to make it differ from WoW, EQ and the like.

And the most important thing- is that SE isn't trying to make FFXIV an RPG-action game aka WoW. This is evident from their comment about not implementing jumping to the game (except if enough players want it). Strategy rather than quick reflexes seems to be their focus, which can be already seen from the early gameplay videos- attacking isn't about spamming abilities but choosing wisely and thinking on your next move.

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 9:00pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#92 Sep 04 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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I'm starting to get angry...FFXIV is similiar to WoW? How the **** do you think that is even nearly viable? The quest system is "similiar"?? WTF! In FFXIV you will get Guildleves from one set point or different Guilds but at the same place. You can do as much as you like. The lvl system is based on weapons and skill lvl with that weapon, the crafting system is supposed to be "unique" where as you don't have to even leave the city to skill it to max. And most important the whole battle system is comletely different...so how the **** does this appear similiar to WoW to you? You're just talking BS...WoW craft system is not even nearly "in the game"...its obsolete...you could play w/o anyone on the server having any craft skilled...AION is similiar to WoW...FFXIV is definetely not, so stop talking crap.
#93 Sep 04 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
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145 posts
Quote:
Also they are making crafting more part of the game, like WoW


I played wow up to lvl 40 so maybe I just never got far along to notice but how is crafting in WoW more part of the game? The only real difference between wow and ffxi is that collecting material was a craft and you had to collect recipies, crafting in WoW atleast to my experiance was not more part of the game than it was in ffxi, I can't play through WoW with picking flowers as my main job.

Quote:
XIV will feature a very similar (to WoW) quest based exp system that will not force grouping


As for quest based exp system Im not sure its clear whether turning in a quest will yeild experience, it could be that as you do the quest you grow specificly from the monsters you kill not from turning in the quest.

ffxiv is going to use a guildleave system, it will have an armor based progression system, its battle system is even different, any similarities that can be found can most likely also be found with most other mmorpgs. Other than seamless transitions from zone to zone I realy can't see how it is a "clone". WoW is popular yes, I would even go as far as to say it is a good game, ffxiv is something new and it will try to improve upon the entire mmorpg genre, not solely try mimick a single almost 8 year old game, and I think that is something we can all look forward to, inovation.

#94 Sep 04 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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9,997 posts
Quote:
I'm starting to get angry...


You won't like him when he's angry.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Sep 04 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
Prettier Than You
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12,966 posts
Pious wrote:
Quote:
lolopinions


And your opinion is?
Please... do share. I always enjoy the amusement I get out of someone proclaiming that one of the many low grade, forgettable MMOs out there are of a better quality than FFXI.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 7:46pm by Pious
My opinion has nothing to do with this thread. I do find it kind of laughable that some pompous, opinionated prick thinks that his one-liner is a thread closer.



Either way, back on topic, as for the guildleave system, they haven't really specified the "type" of experience you'll be gaining through it. It could be quest+mob based, or it could be solely one or the other. My bet(hope) is they take the cue from their competitors and do both, but since not a lot is known about the system yet, it could expand beyond even that somehow.

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 9:32pm by Zackary
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Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#96 Sep 05 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
41 posts
Quote:
My opinion has nothing to do with this thread. I do find it kind of laughable that some pompous, opinionated prick thinks that his one-liner is a thread closer.


Awwww... I think you like me! /blush
:D :D :D



Edited, Sep 5th 2009 2:47pm by Pious
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Carpe Noctem!! :)
#97 Sep 05 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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192 posts
As long as I've got options at most any time as I'm playing, I don't care one way or another. Or if you think grind is defined by not enjoying yourself or something, then it will never become a grind for me? Well, either way.

What I'd like most from the game is, again, options. As much as I didn't like the setting/community/etc of WoW or WAR it was compelling that there was always a quest to do somewhere besides just vanilla enemy stomping. Having to level to be able to do the next quest and only having one or two places to do so: lame.
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