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Do you know why the FFXI community was > WoW? Grouping.Follow

#1 Sep 04 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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I played FFXI for three years before playing WoW. One thing I constantly heard about WoW, was that the community was immature and rude. It was totally true, and after pondering it for a while, I think I know why. On FFXI, you had to group from 10-75. If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.

WoW, on the other hand, can be solo'd 1-80. By the time they hit 80 and *have* to group to progress, they have no clue how to play. They don't care/understand basic group etiquette either, something that is totally drilled into you on ffxi. For instance, it's a pretty big deal when someone in your FFXI party says "I have to go now, bye" and drops the group. On WoW, it's frequent.

Anyways, I know I'm ranting, so I guess I'll end by saying that this is why I sincerly hope grouping is encouraged on FFXIV over solo'ing. Being a hardcore BST player, I really liked solo'ing in FFXI, but I hope it's just as difficult to solo in FFXIV as it was for us BSTs in FFXI.
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#2 Sep 04 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you're mostly right. In WoW you stick mostly just 30-60 minutes in 1 Group (outside of Naxx or Ulduar raids) in FFXi you stick together way longer and that from the beginning.

On top of that I think that many kids can't stand the exp grinding and thus left the game pretty fast. Speaking of my old Linkshell there were no kids all were 21 and older so the age of players might be a big reason too.
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#3 Sep 04 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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What you've said is pretty much true, and I agree with most of it. but I'm not sure if it warranted a new thread doomed to end in a flamewar.

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 3:26pm by Kirbster
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#4 Sep 04 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree 100%, and I sincerely hope that FFXIV attracts a mature audience similar to XI.
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#5 Sep 04 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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Pluelf wrote:
I agree 100%, and I sincerely hope that FFXIV attracts a mature audience similar to XI.


I agree with this. But I don't agree that it should be that way because its difficult to solo. Grouping up in FFXI is such a hassle. I like it, but I like it when I'm with my sister or my friends. And when they're not on, I don't want to be forced to partner up with people just to progress through the game.

Where I am in XI now is that I'm so far behind everyone else that grouping up is a pain for anyone else and they are only doing it as a favor to me because I'm not high enough level yet to actually be of equal help to them. So the option to be able to do things on your own is very much welcomed in my opinion.
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#6 Sep 04 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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If iI recall correctly, the devs stated that group play will still be the focus in FFXIV. it's in the thread "2 new FFXIV videos" So I have my fingers crossed the community will be intact.

I have great memories from my time spent in FFXI. from the LS i co-founded to my first HNMLS which was hated cause we'd monopolise the lesser ground gods during the early days of FFXI. (i was in it for the gil, we sold our drops to the highest bidder) To sitting LFG on my drg and only getting invites from the gilfarmers (they were pretty nice once they started to talk a little) To my final endgame LS and going to battle with them. I miss those times and I'm hoping for them back with FFXIV.
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#7 Sep 04 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
To sitting LFG on my drg and only getting invites from the gilfarmers (they were pretty nice once they started to talk a little) To my final endgame LS and going to battle with them.


the goldfarmers on my server were very nice and pretty funny. They used to teach me swear words in chinese. Of course they ****** me off after they destroyed the fishing market.
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#8 Sep 04 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.


Unless you were a brd / rdm / <other indespensible class> in which case people simply tolerated you.
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#9 Sep 04 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Never played WoW, but in the out of all the other games I did play I can say that FFXI had the kindest and most polite player base. I truly miss it, and I hope that we see the same thing when FFXIV comes out.
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#10 Sep 04 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Default
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
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If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.


Unless you were a brd / rdm / <other indespensible class> in which case people simply tolerated you.
It was a good thing I was a Bard, and one of the best geared Samurai on the server, because I had a lot of enemies. Most of the high-end linkshells on the server didn't like me, as I used to buy a lot of stuff from gilsellers in Aery because I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil.

The invites from them were even sweeter, because I knew that as much as they didn't want me there, they NEEDED me, and it was just like slapping the in the face without any effort on my part.
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#11 Sep 04 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Quote:
If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.
Unless you were a brd / rdm / <other indespensible class> in which case people simply tolerated you.
It was a good thing I was a Bard, and one of the best geared Samurai on the server, because I had a lot of enemies. Most of the high-end linkshells on the server didn't like me, as I used to buy a lot of stuff from gilsellers in Aery because I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil.

The invites from them were even sweeter, because I knew that as much as they didn't want me there, they NEEDED me, and it was just like slapping the in the face without any effort on my part.
Leveling Bard IS the ultimate insult to your enemies. Nothing is sweeter than that. Especially since most of my enemies were too stupid to level anything other than dime a dozen DD jobs.
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#12 Sep 04 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It was a good thing I was a Bard, and one of the best geared Samurai on the server, because I had a lot of enemies. Most of the high-end linkshells on the server didn't like me, as I used to buy a lot of stuff from gilsellers in Aery because I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil.


Quote:
I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil


Anyone else see the inconsistency there?

To paraphrase: 'It is a good thing I was a Bard, and I bought gil and supported gilsellers. Nobody would want to play with me otherwise'.

I just don't get why anyone would be proud of this.
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#13 Sep 04 2009 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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Cue flame fest?
#14 Sep 04 2009 at 8:10 PM Rating: Default
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
It was a good thing I was a Bard, and one of the best geared Samurai on the server, because I had a lot of enemies. Most of the high-end linkshells on the server didn't like me, as I used to buy a lot of stuff from gilsellers in Aery because I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil.


Quote:
I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil


Anyone else see the inconsistency there?

To paraphrase: 'It is a good thing I was a Bard, and I bought gil and supported gilsellers. Nobody would want to play with me otherwise'.

I just don't get why anyone would be proud of this.
Buying gil? Leveled Bonecrafting and Leatherworking to 100+3 and 60 respectively while I had no job, then when I finally did find a job, I no longer had time to sit around and wait hours on end for some mob that may or may not show up to spawn.

Sub-default if you will, but it's the case.
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#15 Sep 04 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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I am some sort of modern prophet.
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#16 Sep 04 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Default
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12,000 posts here and you don't think that perhaps some of my magic is at work here?
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#17 Sep 04 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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I am some sort of modern prophet.


LoL. I follow you. I'm just holding back, because if I am not mistaken, someone just admitted to buying *** tons of gil, but probably should keep it to themselves as to avoid getting flamed out of the forums.
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#18 Sep 04 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Default
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TheJollyjokers wrote:
Quote:
I am some sort of modern prophet.


LoL. I follow you. I'm just holding back, because if I am not mistaken, someone just admitted to buying *** tons of gil, but probably should keep it to themselves as to avoid getting flamed out of the forums.
I didn't admit anything, ******. I could have left the tidbit about the gilfarmers out of the post entirely, but I find it more amusing to watch nerds get red in the face at the very mention of such "atrocities."




So basically, doin' it for the lulz.
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#19 Sep 04 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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I wasn't talking about you, idiot.
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#20 Sep 04 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
The lulz
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#21 Sep 04 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Default
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TheJollyjokers wrote:
I wasn't talking about you, idiot.
Oh, so you mean the other guy being accused of buying gil in this thread. Right. Smiley: rolleyes
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#22 Sep 04 2009 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Oh, so you mean the other guy being accused of buying gil in this thread. Right.


Guilty of something?

Quote:
It was a good thing I was a Bard, and one of the best geared Samurai on the server, because I had a lot of enemies. Most of the high-end linkshells on the server didn't like me, as I used to buy a lot of stuff from gilsellers in Aery because I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil.


Really? You just said that crap for the "lulz"?

I'm just asking.
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#23 Sep 04 2009 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
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So first you're not talking about me, now you are? Make up your mind. Smiley: laugh
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#24 Sep 04 2009 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It was a good thing I was a Bard, and one of the best geared Samurai on the server, because I had a lot of enemies. Most of the high-end linkshells on the server didn't like me, as I used to buy a lot of stuff from gilsellers in Aery because I didn't have time to camp and had a pretty big pile of gil.


being the best geared on the server isn't saying much when you bought everything, no offense but boasting about your gear means nothing...

i didn't have much time to camp either... but that just meant that i didn't get the best gear... i don't see what the big deal is.
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#25 Sep 04 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Default
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Gil sitting on my character doing nothing wasn't exactly accomplishing anything either.


PS: As an aside, I liked the game a lot more when they started releasing more instance-based content like Salvage and Limbus, but yeah, back when the only event that could be scheduled was Dynamis? **** it, that wasn't even worth spending the time on. I could make the money to buy an Adaman Haub Abj. with little to no effort simply by crafting a few Scorpion Harnesses, in hopes of +1s, and going to bed while bazaaring.

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 12:59am by Zackary
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#26 Sep 04 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
LOTRO had a stronger, more courteous and mature community than FFXI, and that was also a very solo friendly game where 1 - cap without joining a group for anything was entirely viable.

Grouping never made for a stronger community, and forcing people to level in groups for dozens upon dozens of hours from 1 - 75 didn't force people to learn a **** thing. There were still plenty of inept players at 75. Let's be realistic.

Competent WoW players are recognized for their contribution to groups just as much as competent FFXI players are. Underachieving, rude, obnoxious, or just generally useless people tend to have a much harder time finding groups than the decent players.

Forced grouping or not has little/nothing to do with the strength of the community. To suggest otherwise is delusional. The games general theme will have more to do with what kinds of players it attracts than how much emphasis is placed on group play.
#27 Sep 04 2009 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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Bocomi wrote:
being the best geared on the server isn't saying much when you bought everything, no offense but boasting about your gear means nothing...
Wait. Sitting in the same place for three hours waiting for the chance to kill a notoriously stupid to camp NM to get an item is boast worthy, but spending a notoriously stupid amount of time making money and sitting in the same place for the chance to buy the same item killed by someone else isn't? They either are both okay or both stupid acts. You killing it for the item isn't any more impressive (since you sure as **** didn't solo it) than someone that negotiated for the sale of the same item.

You're right that boasting about gear means nothing; You just seem to incorrectly think that there is a situation where it does mean something.
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#28 Sep 05 2009 at 2:00 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Bocomi wrote:
being the best geared on the server isn't saying much when you bought everything, no offense but boasting about your gear means nothing...
Wait. Sitting in the same place for three hours waiting for the chance to kill a notoriously stupid to camp NM to get an item is boast worthy, but spending a notoriously stupid amount of time making money and sitting in the same place for the chance to buy the same item killed by someone else isn't? They either are both okay or both stupid acts. You killing it for the item isn't any more impressive (since you sure as **** didn't solo it) than someone that negotiated for the sale of the same item.

You're right that boasting about gear means nothing; You just seem to incorrectly think that there is a situation where it does mean something.
They chose to sit in Aery for hours (And hours, and hours, and hours, and hours) to get their Adaberk. I chose to stand around for hours (see previous) and level my craft to be able to afford to buy extravagant things.


The difference is, I chose the means that accomplish my goal. You stick to some false sense of pride over a silly game.




All in all, haha, I had (and ****, probably still do) have better gear than you in a game I haven't played in a year and a half. Smiley: laugh


Edit: One of these days I'm going to start playing again just to finish my Yoichinoyumi. Not because I think it's a good weapon, but because getting a relic weapon generally means people will suck your ****, no matter what horrible information you give. (Who remembers Rukenshin!?)

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 6:07am by Zackary
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#29 Sep 05 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cirvantes wrote:
One thing I constantly heard about WoW, was that the community was immature and rude. It was totally true, and after pondering it for a while, I think I know why. On FFXI, you had to group from 10-75. If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.



Zackary wrote:
I didn't admit anything, ******. I could have left the tidbit about the gilfarmers out of the post entirely, but I find it more amusing to watch nerds get red in the face at the very mention of such "atrocities."

So basically, doin' it for the lulz.


So much for Cirvantes' theory...

There's no difference in the overall maturity levels of XI players and WoW players. It's just that WoW players have built-in chat channels that cover all of the cities, while XI players only have a limited range /shout. Basically, idiots who want to troll are just able to yell louder in WoW.

#30 Sep 05 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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I think there might be a difference, WoW managed to break the barriers and get through to the masses. I'm sure that affected the community in... not so good ways. WoW also has a pool of people to draw from that is *much* larger than that of FFXI.
I'm sure there are plenty of mature people in WoW (never played it myself).

And I would never generalize to the point where I would call the FFXI community "mature". I've met many great people while playing the game, but there are *plenty* of idiots in the game. They may be more skilled at the game than the WoW community (again, can't say since I haven't played it), but that doesn't mean much in terms of being mature or not. And morons who are skilled at the game are worse in some ways than the people who suck overall. :p

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#31 Sep 05 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

There's no difference in the overall maturity levels of XI players and WoW players. It's just that WoW players have built-in chat channels that cover all of the cities, while XI players only have a limited range /shout. Basically, idiots who want to troll are just able to yell louder in WoW.



/thread
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#32 Sep 05 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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I think that the reason for a difference in the feel of community had more to do with the focus being on PVE rather than PVP.

I loved ballista; and what I noticed that even in ballista, people were generally nice. It was fun to play as a group vs. group. Some rare people were jerkish, but most usual players were good people, and I would end up making friends with them.

It always amused me how in FFXI, where you CAN communicate with the opposite side in a ballista match, people would get upset less and have more fun than in a bg in WoW, where you can't talk to the other side; but plenty of people waste no time shouting insults at their own side.

Simply put, because most of FFXI was PvE, people had more to gain by being nice to each other.

Most of WoW is solo; so people never really try to be nice to each other. I've yet to have a good experience in WoW that involves other players.

I hope they do make FFXIV more casual-friendly than XI; because nobody can say they enjoy lfg. As long as there is a suitable emphasis on PvE and group content, the community should end up like XI's. ^^
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#33 Sep 05 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I played FFXI for three years before playing WoW. One thing I constantly heard about WoW, was that the community was immature and rude. It was totally true, and after pondering it for a while, I think I know why. On FFXI, you had to group from 10-75. If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.


Careful there friend. It makes it look like your courting a non-solo system.
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#34 Sep 05 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Even if you can attribute differences in the community* to forced grouping, doesn't necessarily mean it's some sort of flawless solution to making a good game. Just because something that "doesn't kill you makes you stronger" doesn't mean we actually purposefully put people in crappy situations, and just because a lot of impatient kids quit on FFXI because they had to wait for a group** doesn't mean it's totally a cool situation worth ******** over all the reasonable people who just want to be able to play on their own sometimes.

But why are we debating this? FFXIV is still going to have a large group focus. Which is cool by me. As long as I can play on my own until I find cool players who don't consider listening to the Jonas Brothers and calling things "***" and "retarded" fun past times.

*(Which is debatable. There were fewer screeching kids when I played FFXI but I didn't meet any 'cool people' who didn't act like the worst kinds of teenagers, so it's not like the community is getting a bunch of confetti from me)

**(Even though most of said kids had never even heard of an MMORPG before WoW came out, so the entire WoW vs FFXI debate is fundamentally flawed on the basis that many, many people playing WoW have had no previous MMORPG exposure)
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#35 Sep 05 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Quote:

There's no difference in the overall maturity levels of XI players and WoW players. It's just that WoW players have built-in chat channels that cover all of the cities, while XI players only have a limited range /shout. Basically, idiots who want to troll are just able to yell louder in WoW.



/thread


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#37 Sep 05 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
There's no difference in the overall maturity levels of XI players and WoW players. It's just that WoW players have built-in chat channels that cover all of the cities, while XI players only have a limited range /shout. Basically, idiots who want to troll are just able to yell louder in WoW


That and the heavy PvP aspect to the game just sorta brings out the 'inner ****' in a lot of people. It seems to be encoded into gamer DNA. Kill enemies in Co-op and you tend to be friendlier than when you are trying to kill another player's character.

I also agree with the points made about grouping in MMOs affecting player courteousness, not because it requires a more mature player to engage in group tactics, but because the very nature of Co-Op PVE encourages players to be more courteous and rely on others. In a game like FFXI where you had to wait for hours to get a group (a crappy mechanic), you were more likely to hold your tongue for the benefit of continuing to play. Whereas in WoW you can just tell the group to ***** off if you like.

The same player at a given level of maturity is bound to act differently in these 2 environments. It is less about the maturity of the playerbase, and more about how the environment encouraged certain player behaviors.

By saying one 'prefers the FFXI community' I think they really mean they prefer the co-op PVE setting with an emphasis on grouping, rather than actually preferring the community itself.
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#38 Sep 05 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
Cirvantes wrote:
I played FFXI for three years before playing WoW. One thing I constantly heard about WoW, was that the community was immature and rude. It was totally true, and after pondering it for a while, I think I know why. On FFXI, you had to group from 10-75. If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.


Really? Those people progress all the time in FFXI. Au contraire, most FFXI players are **********

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 8:10pm by Zelduh


This wasn't the case for a long time in the game, up until server transfers became a common thing. After transfering of characters was implemented, it was easy for people to get away with their actions, and they could always run away to another server.
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#39 Sep 05 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
There's no difference in the overall maturity levels of XI players and WoW players. It's just that WoW players have built-in chat channels that cover all of the cities, while XI players only have a limited range /shout. Basically, idiots who want to troll are just able to yell louder in WoW


That and the heavy PvP aspect to the game just sorta brings out the 'inner ****' in a lot of people. It seems to be encoded into gamer DNA. Kill enemies in Co-op and you tend to be friendlier than when you are trying to kill another player's character.
That's pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. The nature of competitive sport does get adrenaline pumping, sure. But it really has more to do with the anonymity that the internet offers more than anything. And that's prevalent in any game.

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 9:22pm by Zackary
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#40 Sep 05 2009 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zackary wrote:
That's pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. The nature of competitive sport does get adrenaline pumping, sure. But it really has more to do with the anonymity that the internet offers more than anything. And that's prevalent in any game.


You think getting ganked to **** and back and seeing other players as competition and not just other players in a game has no effect whatsoever on how people would unintentionally treat other players? I mean, I don't even want to be confrontational here, just. Do you really think that?

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 8:59pm by PrinnyFlute
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#41 Sep 05 2009 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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PrinnyFlute wrote:
Zackary wrote:
That's pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. The nature of competitive sport does get adrenaline pumping, sure. But it really has more to do with the anonymity that the internet offers more than anything. And that's prevalent in any game.


You think getting ganked to **** and back and seeing other players as competition and not just other players in a game has no effect whatsoever on how people would unintentionally treat other players? I mean, I don't even want to be confrontational here, just. Do you really think that?

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 8:59pm by PrinnyFlute
People who aren't mentally prepared for that type of thing get frustrated and move to PVE servers almost 90% of the time, where this is not an issue.


Additionally, why do people seem to think that ganking and/or world pvp have some type of personal drive behind them? In just about every game I've ever played with open pvp, ganking has been a pretty impersonal experience, (****, when I gank people, it's generally because they're impeding upon my progress somehow and nothing more.) and things like city raids usually have a purpose, which practically makes them pve endeavors. So while I see your point, it just doesn't line up.

Edited, Sep 5th 2009 10:51pm by Zackary
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#42 Sep 05 2009 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do have multiple friends who complain about being repeat gank-griefed by the same person for hours. And I have a friend who goes out of his way, reportedly, to purposefully grief a specific set of people so he can bug them about it later.

Those sound kind of personal to me, but I don't play WoW so that's all second hand experience. Just listing off what I've heard. I'm just saying an environment where you interact with players competitively on-sight will, whether consciously or without realizing it, cause people to treat other players differently from a completely player-parallel experience. I think the idea that you can separate everything that's going on around you from your interactions and attitude like a robot is kind of ridiculous, hey, no offense. You ask me, we're influenced by stuff and we only have so much control over it.

But I'm not necessarily saying it makes things "worse" or less intelligent or anything. I certainly don't think FFXI was some shining beacon of kindness and intelligence when it comes to player bases.
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#43 Sep 05 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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I do have multiple friends who complain about being repeat gank-griefed by the same person for hours. And I have a friend who goes out of his way, reportedly, to purposefully grief a specific set of people so he can bug them about it later.

Those sound kind of personal to me, but I don't play WoW so that's all second hand experience. Just listing off what I've heard. I'm just saying an environment where you interact with players competitively on-sight will, whether consciously or without realizing it, cause people to treat other players differently from a completely player-parallel experience. I think the idea that you can separate everything that's going on around you from your interactions and attitude like a robot is kind of ridiculous, hey, no offense. You ask me, we're influenced by stuff and we only have so much control over it.

But I'm not necessarily saying it makes things "worse" or less intelligent or anything. I certainly don't think FFXI was some shining beacon of kindness and intelligence when it comes to player bases.


I don't think so. I've played ffxi (and a bunch of other pve centric mmo's) and I've also played a bunch of pvp centric mmo's (WoW and AoC) and i really think it has nothing to do with pvp in terms of competition.

Sure, you get the occasional person who can't stand losing in pvp but you get that in pve too.

If i had to look into a reason that pvp might cause more stress or whatnot i think it would have to be the fact that in wow you are often randomly placed into groups for pvp with a large pool of players to be selected from. I would say that people tend to act worse off than normal if they are amoungst ppl they do not know, have no dealings with, will not likely have dealings with again and are basically free of reprocussion.

Basically, it's like an internet forum.
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#44 Sep 05 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
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PrinnyFlute wrote:
I do have multiple friends who complain about being repeat gank-griefed by the same person for hours. And I have a friend who goes out of his way, reportedly, to purposefully grief a specific set of people so he can bug them about it later.
These are hardly common practices, and anybody who plays Warcraft to any extent will tell you that it's pretty rare. Those who partake are the same ones who do stupid **** in XI like Diaga on Lullaby'd mobs and stuff.

PrinnyFlute wrote:
Those sound kind of personal to me, but I don't play WoW so that's all second hand experience. Just listing off what I've heard. I'm just saying an environment where you interact with players competitively on-sight will, whether consciously or without realizing it, cause people to treat other players differently from a completely player-parallel experience. I think the idea that you can separate everything that's going on around you from your interactions and attitude like a robot is kind of ridiculous, hey, no offense. You ask me, we're influenced by stuff and we only have so much control over it.

But I'm not necessarily saying it makes things "worse" or less intelligent or anything. I certainly don't think FFXI was some shining beacon of kindness and intelligence when it comes to player bases.
Like I said, there are PVE servers where, unless you literally run into an enemy city, you can remove the PVP aspect of the game entirely. Most people who take ganking personally end up going to them.


I'll agree that those who don't go to PVE servers sure can be angsty, but it's pretty much ignored and/or scoffed at by the masses.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#45 Sep 05 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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This was very true for a long time. I been playing off and on sense game was released. One thing I could always state without a doubt that FF11 had the best community, lightyears past any other MMO.

But I am not certain of that anymore. Many players these days seem bitter and jaded. I actually official quit FF11 about 3 months ago for the exact reason that I no longer had a interest in the community which was main reason I played. If I were to be blunt I would say the community even fell bellow the immature 12 y/o of WoW.

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 3:53am by Mitsuuko

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 3:53am by Mitsuuko
#46 Sep 06 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Mitsuuko wrote:
This was very true for a long time. I been playing off and on sense game was released. One thing I could always state without a doubt that FF11 had the best community, lightyears past any other MMO.

But I am not certain of that anymore. Many players these days seem bitter and jaded. I actually official quit FF11 about 3 months ago for the exact reason that I no longer had a interest in the community which was main reason I played. If I were to be blunt I would say the community even fell bellow the immature 12 y/o of WoW.


Hmm. I think that FFXI has a more mature than WoW hands down. WoW starter areas are a mass wall of spam involving Myspace pages and Pee Pee jokes. You also have the added bonus with FFXI of not having a guy show up to your house with A gun, Rubber gloves and Duct tape because you didnt send him nudie pics of yourself. Or is that just because we have a smaller community? /shrug

Honestly, when presented with the pletheroa of choices when it comes to current MMOs, FFXI is not only outdated but in the vast scheme of things not the most user friendly of the bunch. You either really love it because of its ties with Final Fantasy and those that love its quirky Japanese underlinings, or you run away from it, fast, in place of a more mainstream MMO.

Something interesting I noticed was that the majority of WoW players had no idea or previous experience with Warcraft, either it be the original Warcraft, the even more RTS based II and III or any idea or knowledge of the lore behind the game what so ever.

Where as in FFXI, it is hard to find someone that is not distinctly familiar with the previous titles and subtle similarities that have carried on throughout the previous 20 years of Final Fantasy. WoW uses pop culture references to separate the hardcore lore fanatics from those that just want to play it for fun, FFXI forces you to pay attention to it intensely.

So what does WoW have that we don't? Previous product Branding? Heck no. I guess it was the "Mass appeal" advertising scheme that catered to "Casual players" ahead of anything else. The game screams "Just try me, even if you have never played a game before." FFXI does NOT do that at all, and the media even goes as far to describe FFXI as the most difficult MMO of them all. (Number 1 in the 'hardest Live! Achievement' to obtain was a Maat cap according to a few gaming publications for a while...)

FFXIV seems to be a second attempt at capturing the crowd that walked away. The folks that said "This is too hard and I hate grinding". One of the things that really ****** me off about Square Enix is their complete lack of understanding in terms of how US product Marketing actually works. You have to PROMOTE your product, not hide it from the Public expecting that everyone is just foaming at the mouth for details. WoW did a fantastic job at that, there are references to it everywhere, it became a cultural phenominon that was backed by a great PR firm no doubt. You don't need money to attract players to FFXIV, you need to identify what it is that made people stay away the first time around and sadly to ultimately replicate what has worked with other Games (WoW >.<). Which would mean making it an "Entry-level MMO" that you can just "Hop into and start playing" followed by a massive ad campaign and great reviews by people that know NOTHING about Final Fantasy.

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 5:11am by patient
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#47 Sep 06 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
FFXIV seems to be a second attempt at capturing the crowd that walked away. The folks that said "This is too hard and I hate grinding". One of the things that really ****** me off about Square Enix is their complete lack of understanding in terms of how US product Marketing actually works. You have to PROMOTE your product, not hide it from the Public expecting that everyone is just foaming at the mouth for details. WoW did a fantastic job at that, there are references to it everywhere, it became a cultural phenominon that was backed by a great PR firm no doubt. You don't need money to attract players to FFXIV, you need to identify what it is that made people stay away the first time around and sadly to ultimately replicate what has worked with other Games (WoW >.<). Which would mean making it an "Entry-level MMO" that you can just "Hop into and start playing" followed by a massive ad campaign and great reviews by people that know NOTHING about Final Fantasy.
This is absolutely the case. Every time Blizzard plans a new patch/expansion, you hear about it months (Even as far as a year.) in advance, and they leak information as they see fit to keep people interested and involved in the process of developing it. There are panels at gaming conventions and threads on their forums that ask for input on the progress they're making, and surprisingly a lot of it is taken into consideration and the game improves simply because they give the players what it is they want.

Some people say that this makes the game "easier" or "cheaper" or whatever such nonsense people have to say to make themselves feel better about playing a more "difficult" game, but the fact of the matter is, it's a game meant to entertain people and make money. If you don't manage to do the former, you will not do the latter.


A lot of it has to do with the fact that Enix thinks it's a lot more than what it actually is. In Japan, Enix is almost a household name, their influence on the gaming industry in Japan is huge, which is great for them...in Japan. What they don't realize is that doesn't extend to America, and our society is not quite the same in the sense that if something is not advertised, we do not pay attention to it. There's so many advertisements flying at us at all times, it's hard to recall products that you don't see information about on a regular basis. That being said, if they continue to hide behind the shroud of mystery and the dodgey "We can't tell you anything about that right now" answers, this game will flop at release unless it's absolutely astounding in gameplay quality. Overwhelmingly so. Because as it stands right now, most of the WoW community is not interested in 14 because of the recent news of their new expansion, so the odds of attracting a "large" audience from that demographic isn't likely if the game just turns out to be mediocre.



PS: What's "entry-level" about WoW? It's a more casual game in general, sure, but if you're serious about endgame content and all that crap, it's not different from XI at all. It's a lot more trial-and-errorish, but by no means is it any more friendly.

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 7:04am by Zackary
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Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#48 Sep 06 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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they give the players what it is they want.


They give the players what they think they want, not what they actually want.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#49 Sep 06 2009 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
they give the players what it is they want.


They give the players what they think they want, not what they actually want.
Players don't know what they actually want, because they don't think on a bigger scale. AKA: How is this going to effect overall gameplay?


But you can't fault them for trying to make everyone happy. It's impossible, but they do an alright job of listening, which is more than any sane person could say about Enix.
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But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#50 Sep 06 2009 at 3:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Players don't know what they actually want, because they don't think on a bigger scale. AKA: How is this going to effect overall gameplay?


Also because they haven't experienced things they may like more than what they have currently.

For example, a person who thinks that instant gratification is the best way to reward players.. But since he has never tried a system where you actually have to work for your rewards, he can't know if he liked that kind of system better than the current one.

I think it's the dev's role to show the players these kind of things.. but it's not possible if the dev's listen to the players. That's why I don't think the way Blizzard does things is the better way either. The less risky way when it comes to pleasing customers, yes, but overall I would say that not listening can be even better sometimes.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#51 Sep 06 2009 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Players don't know what they actually want, because they don't think on a bigger scale. AKA: How is this going to effect overall gameplay?


Also because they haven't experienced things they may like more than what they have currently.

For example, a person who thinks that instant gratification is the best way to reward players.. But since he has never tried a system where you actually have to work for your rewards, he can't know if he liked that kind of system better than the current one.

I think it's the dev's role to show the players these kind of things.. but it's not possible if the dev's listen to the players. That's why I don't think the way Blizzard does things is the better way either. The less risky way when it comes to pleasing customers, yes, but overall I would say that not listening can be even better sometimes.
Maybe so, but see the part of my post about entertainment vs. profit.

It's business, plain and simple. They aren't making these games for you, or me, or anyone else who plays them.
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Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
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But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
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